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Thread: If Leica goes liveview..

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Vivek, I'd rent, but unfortunately I've yet to find a Leica dealer who provides the service. Canon, Nikon, Hasselblad, Phase One, Mamiya, Sinar, Leaf...just a phone call away for same day rental, but Leica?

    Why is it Leica seems to target 'sweater man' rather than working photographers?
    Well, borrowlenses.com rents Leica in the USA, but I don't think they service the UK.

    I don't know that Leica targets "sweater man" rather than working photographers. Many working photographers wear sweaters too. All depends what you define to be a working photographer.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Getting precise focus is not necessarily faster with a lens that focus shifts using TTL viewing vs RF focusing. You go at it differently and learn how to focus it properly, then it is just as fast either way.

    It takes time to go to full enlarge mode and/or use focus peaking. Learning how to see the best point of focus with focus peaking is also a learned skill. Over time, with any system, you learn how to do it quickly and easily.

    You can only CONFIRM critical focus after the exposure is made anyway. No matter how critically you focused beforehand, it is what has been recorded which is significant.

    Remember that I work with all three systems ... optical reflex, optical rf, electronic ttl. I find them all excellent, and all have their plusses and minuses for different situations. None is particularly faster than the other in use.
    I have/use all the systems and even more than the ones you list. I am not sure if you have ever used a lens like the C-Sonnar. Not all Sonnars are made this way, thankfully. It is one lens I would not like to touch regardless of the system or the overhyped "rendering". Totally useless, to me, and not worth wasting my money on.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    That, bitter man, is a perfect title for a new thread.
    ?

    Hey, Vivek, I don't know you from Adam, please don't presume to know me.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Well, borrowlenses.com rents Leica in the USA, but I don't think they service the UK.
    Godfrey, I'll probably end up buying the M9 and evaluating it thoroughly over a period of several months, really, it's the only way I'll ever know for sure.

    It is, on paper at least, the nearest I've found that meets my need.

    Thanks

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I have/use all the systems and even more than the ones you list. I am not sure if you have ever used a lens like the C-Sonnar. Not all Sonnars are made this way, thankfully. It is one lens I would not like to touch regardless of the system or the overhyped "rendering". Totally useless, to me, and not worth wasting my money on.
    I don't know hat your riposte has anything to do with what I said.
    I also use more than just these three viewing systems.
    I've also used some other pretty weird lenses. Doesn't matter whether the Sonnar suits you or not.
    Last edited by Godfrey; 30th January 2012 at 10:44.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Godfrey, I'll probably end up buying the M9 and evaluating it thoroughly over a period of several months, really, it's the only way I'll ever know for sure.

    It is, on paper at least, the nearest I've found that meets my need.

    Thanks
    You're welcome. And that is, indeed, the best way to learn and then know whether it suits your needs best.

    I was very reluctant to spend the money for the M9 even knowing Leica Ms for a very long time. I thought about it for a year, started planning for it last Summer, etc. Coming off of a couple of years of the worst financial crunch I've been through in my lifetime, it seemed a massively expensive thing to spend money on and "just not important enough." However, working with it for just a week and some now, there is not one shred of doubt that it was worth every penny I paid for it and that it suits what I want to do with it beautifully. I expect to use it for a very long time.

    I hope your experience is the same. :-)

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    ?

    Hey, Vivek, I don't know you from Adam, please don't presume to know me.
    Not at all, Keith. That post might have been influenced by your mispelling or is it misspelling?

    Regardless, my suggestion about the borrowing is serious and properly placed.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I don't know hat your riposte has anything to do with what I said.
    I also use more than just these three viewing systems.
    I've also used some other pretty weird lenses. Doesn't matter whether the Sonnar suits you or not.
    Sonnars suit me alright but not that C-Sonnar. You may be interested to learn about its characteristics. It is not new.

    FWIW, here is some related discussion prompted by Zeiss:

    Flickr: Discussing Sony NEX-5N and Carl Zeiss C Sonnar T* 1,5/50 ZM? in OFFICIAL Carl Zeiss Lenses Group

    What I say there is consistent with what I say here. That lens is better used on a live view cam because of the aperture induced focus shift. It is not suitable for a RF cam.

    (Addendum: The aperture induced focus shift is pretty rare. Especially, with small format lenses. The C-Sonnar stands out in this regard)

    However, if Leica goes live view (the topic of this thread), then it may become useful.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Sonnars suit me alright but not that C-Sonnar. You may be interested to learn about its characteristics. It is not new.

    FWIW, here is some related discussion prompted by Zeiss:

    Flickr: Discussing Sony NEX-5N and Carl Zeiss C Sonnar T* 1,5/50 ZM? in OFFICIAL Carl Zeiss Lenses Group

    What I say there is consistent with what I say here. That lens is better used on a live view cam because of the aperture induced focus shift. It is not suitable for a RF cam.

    (Addendum: The aperture induced focus shift is pretty rare. Especially, with small format lenses. The C-Sonnar stands out in this regard)

    However, if Leica goes live view (the topic of this thread), then it may become useful.
    What you seem to fail to understand is that I have no interest in the Sonnar 50mm f/1.5's suitability, or not, for a rangefinder camera. I don't know why it is of such interest to you if you are not interested in the lens, as your previous message seemed to indicate.

    A Telyt 400mm lens is also not suitable for rangefinder focusing. So what?

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Ha, in that case, I just remembered, again, that the topic of this thread is about live view.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    the conversation developed beyond that.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    can we please bring it back to live view?

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    As long as your lenses are calibrated good and fit your body I feel to focus more precisly and faster with the M9 vs focusing on a display or evf with focus peaking.
    Focusing with viewinfder magnification I find only usefull for still images.
    I believe many people have lenses which are not 100% calibrated and therefore believe its a fault of the rangefinder system.
    Focus shift is a different story (I didnt manage it on the old Nocti and the 35/1.4asph, but found it not to be such a big problem with the 50/1.5 Sonnar)

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    I have a lot of Sonnars, all of the 50mm Sonnars that I have exhibit focus shift similar to the C-Sonnar. I have a 1938 Sonnar "T" 5cm F1.5 on the Leica M9 now. The focus shift from F1.5 to F4 is near identical to the C-Sonnar. The Canon 50/1.5, Nikkor 5cm F1.4, Zeiss-Opton 50/1.5, post-war CZJ 5cm f1.5 Sonnar, Jupiter-3, all about the same. The F2 lenses exhibit less shift, mostly because they are a full stop slower. Collimate them for wide-open work, just stop the RF slightly closer for stopped-down work.

    With liveview: using the EP2 with the EVF, stopping down makes the image noisier and increases DOF making it more difficult to find the best focus. Liveview has drawbacks as well. Try stopping a manual focus lens to F8 or F11 and finding the best focus. Not so easy.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Brian, Interesting to hear about your experience with the classic 50mm Sonnars made for RF.

    It is possible to get good focus even stopped down. Recently I shot a few at 1:1 magnification at f/22 which makes the effective aperture f/44. It was not just a question of dim view but also the effects of diffraction!

    Live view allows for magnification and if there is enough light to allow for viewing at 16X and f/44, it is possible to see clearly. Even in not so bright light, live view becomes grainy but still usable.

    One problem area is with the fast lenses, especially if they are not contrasty wide open and the if the light is not contrasty.

    In such cases, it is also possible to increase the contrast settings in the camera to make it manageable.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    can we please bring it back to live view?
    LOL! You have my permission ... ;-)

    ...
    unsubscribing from the thread

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    It takes me longer to accurately focus a lens stopped-down with live-view than it does to focus with the rangefinder and "build-in" the compensation. Basically, the same technique used for the DOF marks on the Leica M3 and M2- but you need to just remember the offset rather than it being marked.

    Focusing a stopped-down lens using live-view for me is about the same as focusing a lens on an SLR stopped-down. Faster for me to focus wide-open, then stop-down.

    I am sure Live-view will improve, my "latest" is the EP2 with the VF-2. It's great for IR work, I had the IR absorbing glass removed on one of my EP2's. But once things are stopped down to F8 or so, the finder gets noisy. You can still focus, but I find it distracting.

    What i would really like to see for live-view: A "magnified zoom-box" for the image. Rather than the 7x or 10x magnified image covering the whole finder, just pan a zoom-box over the portion of the image that you select to focus. That way you could focus and frame simultaneously. Like being able to move the RF spot anywhere in the finder, focus and frame at the same time. On the EP2, or any other Liveview camera, it would be easy to implement in firmware, but i do not know of any camera that shows a magnified sub-image overlaid on the full-view frame.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Hi Brian
    the Sony NEX shows a magnified sub-image overlaid over the full frame view. I think the Leica X1 does the same . . . but IMHO this, just like the Olympus system, is really difficult to use in moving situations (fine on a tripod).
    Have you had a go with focus peaking?
    It's a gamechanger in my opinion.

    However . . . . . . . . I still find rangefinder focusing (with an M9) to be
    more accurate
    more satisfying
    faster

    but then I've practiced that technique more.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    I have not tried the NEX, I am glad they did this. I'll have to try it out. The all-or-none of the Olympus is hard for me to use. I have to shift it back and forth.

    1935 Sonnar 5cm F1.5, wide-open on the EP2, focus via the VF-2.



    And wide-open on the Leica M9, focus via the RF. Focus and then frame.



    Converted to Leica mount using a Jupiter-3 focus mount.

    I've been using rangefinders for over 40 years, since I was 11. It's automatic for me.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian S View Post
    It takes me longer to accurately focus a lens stopped-down with live-view than it does to focus with the rangefinder and "build-in" the compensation. Basically, the same technique used for the DOF marks on the Leica M3 and M2- but you need to just remember the offset rather than it being marked.

    Focusing a stopped-down lens using live-view for me is about the same as focusing a lens on an SLR stopped-down. Faster for me to focus wide-open, then stop-down.

    I am sure Live-view will improve, my "latest" is the EP2 with the VF-2. It's great for IR work, I had the IR absorbing glass removed on one of my EP2's. But once things are stopped down to F8 or so, the finder gets noisy. You can still focus, but I find it distracting.

    What i would really like to see for live-view: A "magnified zoom-box" for the image. Rather than the 7x or 10x magnified image covering the whole finder, just pan a zoom-box over the portion of the image that you select to focus. That way you could focus and frame simultaneously. Like being able to move the RF spot anywhere in the finder, focus and frame at the same time. On the EP2, or any other Liveview camera, it would be easy to implement in firmware, but i do not know of any camera that shows a magnified sub-image overlaid on the full-view frame.


    Good point, Brian! If that "picture in picture" possibility arrives to main stream live view, especially if the box can be moved around as you describe, That would be far better than the fixed RF patch.

    EDIT: Jono posted (correctly) that this already exists in SONY NEX-7!

    On the invisible spectral captures- that was the main reason why I bought an Epson R-D1s a while ago. There were many complications still. The thickness of the filter (IR or UV pass) determines the focus shift and it isn't possible to calibrate each lens for every filter. That plus my acceptance of my limited skills when it comes to modifying lenses for RF use, unlike you, made me give up that path (FWIW, the Biotar 40/1.4 was bought for that!). With live view, both those major issues are taken care of!

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    i will be modifying the Biotar 4cm F1.4 for the Ep2- and I see what you mean about flare. I did a quick-and-dirty test on the EP2 already, and got "rainbow flare" with strong backlighting. I suspect the image circle is not big enough to cover the M9, and edge distortions would be big on the M8.

    However- given that this F1.4 Biotar lens is from the 1920s, it is very impressive. I disassembled it to clean all of the surfaces, looked like wax-paper when I got it. Looks like Waterford crystal now.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    The C-Sonnar, wide-open at F1.5, on the Leica m8.



    "Subject moved during exposure"...

    I'm sure with a lot of practice, I could do this on a Liveview camera. But it took me 40 years to be able to do this... Another 40 years???

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Brian
    the Sony NEX shows a magnified sub-image overlaid over the full frame view. I think the Leica X1 does the same . . . but IMHO this, just like the Olympus system, is really difficult to use in moving situations (fine on a tripod).
    Have you had a go with focus peaking?
    It's a gamechanger in my opinion.

    However . . . . . . . . I still find rangefinder focusing (with an M9) to be
    more accurate
    more satisfying
    faster

    but then I've practiced that technique more.
    Jono,
    I agree with you besides I believe (now) that it is not a matter of training. A Rangefinder is just more accurate IMO.
    Fokus peaking depends a lot on contrast which can be very different in different light situations. The extrem would be very dim light and low contrast where you would not see any contrast-corners for peaking.
    The other extrem (more often) would be scenes where you get a certain range with those white (or yellow or red) corners glowing, and the range would be bigger than the range that actually will be sharp in the image.

    Focus peaking for is fine but not perfect. The advantage compared to rangefinder is that tolerances of rangefinder and lenses, focus shift and things like that are not a problem when using peaking.

    The other thing why I prefer the rangefinder is that I see the real thing, and I see it without (in some cases) distracting white borders.

    It would be great to have a camera which does both (and I assume the M10 might offer both rangefinder and lifeview), but if I had to decide between the two it would be a rangefinder for my taste- at least for a certain range of focal length.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Excellent points. And then there are situations the rangefinder wasn't designed for.

    I have one camera setup in which I can use for focusing either the optical Visoflex viewfinder, or the magnification or focus peaking of the electronic viewfinder or LCD panel of the NEX-5N.

    My limited experience of a few weeks with the NEX-5N has already demonstrated to me that depending on subject matter and lighting conditions any of the mentioned focusing methods can be best for a specific situation and frankly I would like to have all of them available in a future camera so that I can choose. Even the optical rangefinder in my mind could benefit from some kind of focus confirmation.

    Best, K-H.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    It would be great to have a camera which does both (and I assume the M10 might offer both rangefinder and lifeview), but if I had to decide between the two it would be a rangefinder for my taste- at least for a certain range of focal length.
    Hi Tom
    whilst I actually rather like focus peaking in very low light . . . there's hardly a sparkle, but the ones you do get are usually in the eyes.

    On the other hand, I completely agree with you - a camera which does both is fab . . . . otherwise I'll choose a rangefinder every time.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian S View Post
    "Subject moved during exposure"...

    I'm sure with a lot of practice, I could do this on a Liveview camera. But it took me 40 years to be able to do this... Another 40 years???
    . . . if you've been trying with the "zoom in" focus on the Pen I quite agree . . with focus peaking it would be no problem - really, although whether it's as good an experience as taking advantage of 40 years experience (or 6 in my case) is a moot point!

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