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Thread: If Leica goes liveview..

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    If Leica goes liveview..

    Rumors are surfacing that Leica might incorporate liveview/mirrorless technology in about a year.

    The easy way is, as they do with their rebadged Lumix P&S cams, rebadge the Panasonic m4/3rds cams and sell them for a lot more.

    If by any chance they bring out something like the Ricoh GXR, complete with an EVF and all that and heavens forbid there is a full frame model of similar type, what would happen?

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Hi Vivek
    They've said pretty clearly that their new mirror less camera will be at least APS/c - which kind of rules out the Panasonic route - why would heaven forbid a full frame solution?

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Hi Jono,

    Why?

    The answer is simple. I would like one. Particularly, I would like to see how my "Made in Japan" Wetzlar 75-200 f/4.5 would do on that.

    It is possible that Pentax/Ricoh may be the first ones to do that.

    We already have FF DSLRs capable of doing liveview as well. Before the NEX came out, I was actually thinking (seriously) of buying either a Pentax K7 or an A580 and get rid of the mirror box to use as a liveview only cam.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    why would heaven forbid a full frame solution?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Hi Jono,

    Why?

    The answer is simple. I would like one. Particularly, I would like to see how my "Made in Japan" Wetzlar 75-200 f/4.5 would do on that.
    Hmmm do you have a disagreement with heaven Vivek?

    Well it seems to me that Leica already have a FF mirrorless camera. Marc (photographz) reckons the M10 will have a CMOS sensor and liveview. Would that do you? (I think it might do me).

    All the best

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    I do not have any problems with heavens/hells/purgatories, Jono.

    It is the thought the Leica already have a FF mirrorless camera might prevent the above mentioned states from actually going mirrorless with true liveview (electronic, i might add).

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Sorry - I'm stupid and missing your point here?

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Would that do you? (I think it might do me).
    If a response to that part is missing..

    I am not sure if it would do me. I would like to see a FF liveview cam with an EVF, yes.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    If a response to that part is missing..

    I am not sure if it would do me. I would like to see a FF liveview cam with an EVF, yes.
    I'm certain a TTL electronic camera with a full frame sensor will happen soon, but if it is the rumored "M10", I'm glad I got the M9. While I think TTL electronic is the way of the future, I wanted a rangefinder digital camera as close to my M4-2 as possible. That's the M9.

    (The M9 is not mirrorless as it uses a mirrored prism in the rangefinder. It's just a different take on mirrorless... ;-)

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    I'm having a difficult time with this rumor.

    If indeed they offer an APS-C, what are they going to do for lenses? They can't build lenses quick enough as it is...so does this mean they provide some designs to Panasonic for example?

    Their current M lens line wouldn't make sense for a lower priced interchangeable with APS-C....what's the point of a $5K 35 lux on say a $2k body, to get a 50/1.4 equivalent??

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    I'm having a difficult time with this rumor.

    If indeed they offer an APS-C, what are they going to do for lenses? They can't build lenses quick enough as it is...so does this mean they provide some designs to Panasonic for example?

    Their current M lens line wouldn't make sense for a lower priced interchangeable with APS-C....what's the point of a $5K 35 lux on say a $2k body, to get a 50/1.4 equivalent??
    Well, I dunno 'bout anybody else, but I would be delighted to use a $5K Summilux-M 50 with my $720 M4-2 body. ;-)

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    I'm having a difficult time with this rumor.

    If indeed they offer an APS-C, what are they going to do for lenses? They can't build lenses quick enough as it is...so does this mean they provide some designs to Panasonic for example?

    Their current M lens line wouldn't make sense for a lower priced interchangeable with APS-C....what's the point of a $5K 35 lux on say a $2k body, to get a 50/1.4 equivalent??
    HI Robert
    I quite agree with you on this one . . except that it's not a rumour - at least, it was part of an interview at the British Journal of Photography, and elsewhere - I can't remember the exact details, but the gist of it was that there would be some kind of interchangeable lens camera with a sensor size of at lest APS-c.

    I'm also with you over the issues - is it new AF lenses? in which case are Leica going to make them? Panasonic only do 4/3, so presumably not them. I think we live in interesting times at least!

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Two new camera will be announced by Leica at Photokina 2012.

    The new camera system is expected to have at least an APS-C sized sensor and will probably be compatible with Leica R lenses.

    Read more on LeicaRumors.com: http://leicarumors.com/2012/01/22/tw...#ixzz1kLeqTWV8

    Two new Leica cameras at Photokina 2012 | Leica News & Rumors


    My Photos: 500px

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    I would imagine the new M10 sensor will incorporate live view.

    I'm #1 on my dealer's waiting list already

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    I'm having a difficult time with this rumor.

    If indeed they offer an APS-C, what are they going to do for lenses? They can't build lenses quick enough as it is...so does this mean they provide some designs to Panasonic for example?

    Their current M lens line wouldn't make sense for a lower priced interchangeable with APS-C....what's the point of a $5K 35 lux on say a $2k body, to get a 50/1.4 equivalent??
    May be they will slash the prices of the lenses by 50% ? That would be good thing.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Guys, listen to Marc as he is probably testing the camera as I am writing this.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    May be they will slash the prices of the lenses by 50% ? That would be good thing.
    Then it would take 3 years to get a lens instead of 1.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Live View on an M10 would result in me switching almost completely over to my M system for my landscape work (I say almost because Leica currently does make a tilt shift lens). That will be most awesome.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    I'm on the list for a M10 also, even though I don't know what will be in it. This is not as crazy as you think because if the camera does not suit me, I will just give up my place. I am hoping for a combination rangefinder/EVF like Fuji's but implemeted Leica's way, and better high ISO would be nice (and not so hard if it is CMOS). But I am also not going to get rid of my M9 so fast. If there were no M10, I would be just fine with M9. But after putting some Leica glass on a Sony Nex-7, I now understand what all the fuss is about EVFs and I would love to see how Leica implements it.
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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    if there is a liveview on the M10 I'd love to see a 135mm Summicron

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Sheesh, here I am trying to decide if I should buy a Leica M9 when along comes all these rumours of the M10 and liveview.

    I'd value the option to actually be able to confirm focus in the field and I get the feeling I'm not alone. But what do I do, buy the M9 now and take a huge hit a while down the line, forget the whole idea and look elsewhere, or wait?

    Yes, I know, only I can answer the above. Hey, go easy on me, this is my first post here.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Sheesh, here I am trying to decide if I should buy a Leica M9 when along comes all these rumours of the M10 and liveview.

    I'd value the option to actually be able to confirm focus in the field and I get the feeling I'm not alone. But what do I do, buy the M9 now and take a huge hit a while down the line, forget the whole idea and look elsewhere, or wait?

    Yes, I know, only I can answer the above. Hey, go easy on me, this is my first post here.
    Gear buying angst is everywhere. ;-)

    I obtained the M9 recently and I'm delighted with it. My intent is to keep it a long long time.

    If an M10 appears and is the same but also supports Live View to the LCD, that would be great. I'll put it on my wish list. No great hurry as the Ricoh GXR provides an excellent TTL electronic camera that uses all my M-bayonet lenses very nicely ... I really have no pressing desire or need for more features in the M. I bought it for the optical rangefinder and simplicity in operation. I would not be interested in the M10 if it does not have the optical rangefinder.

    If/when Leica annouced their own entirely TTL electronic body and if it performs as well as the GXR does with my M-bayonet lenses, it will be on my wish list too. Again, no rush at all since what I have does such a nice job as it is.

    If I was considering the M9 now, I wouldn't wait as whatever the M10 might be is a half a year away at least ... and the M9 is certainly a fine camera as it is. If a Leica M what you want, go for it. Otherwise, buy a GXR and A12 Camera Mount for a TTL electronic camera and wait to see what the M10 will be ... it's only $1200 or so, not a big deal compared to buying an M9 or M10 body, and it produces superb photographs with M-bayonet lenses.

    Your options are open and varied. ;-)
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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Your options are open and varied. ;-)
    Indeed they are.

    Really, the M9 is just about everything I want apart from a way to accurately evaluate focus in the field. A decent LCD would do the trick.

    My options include buying a Sony NEX-7 or Fuji X-Pro1 as a stopgap until the specs of the M10 are known. There again I may take your advice and just go ahead and buy the M9.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Indeed they are.

    Really, the M9 is just about everything I want apart from a way to accurately evaluate focus in the field. A decent LCD would do the trick.

    My options include buying a Sony NEX-7 or Fuji X-Pro1 as a stopgap until the specs of the M10 are known. There again I may take your advice and just go ahead and buy the M9.
    I presume you mean beyond what the rangefinder provides. You can easily set up the M9 to do full resolution JPEG + raw, focus, make an exposure, and then check that the focus is exactly what you want using the review facility. Live view allows you to check in this detail before you make the shot, but it isn't much faster in doing so. The rangefinder is very accurate.

    BTW: The NEX 7 will not work as well with many of the shorter M-bayonet lenses as the GXR does; the NEX 5n does better but is still not quite up to the GXR performance. The Fuji is an unknown as yet as to how well it will perform with these lenses. At this point in time, if you want to use the largest variety of M-bayonet lenses and get the most out of them, the GXR is the best alternative to an M8 or M9. (And it might perform better with some M-bayonet designs than the Ms too .. that much I haven't explored fully yet.)

    Many options... :-)

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Live view allows you to check in this detail before you make the shot, but it isn't much faster in doing so. The rangefinder is very accurate.
    How I wish I had known that earlier or is true.

    [BTW, anyone wishing to discuss the "shutter lag" in a camera ought to read this. ]

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I presume you mean beyond what the rangefinder provides.
    Absolutely.

    Godfrey, are you saying the comparatively low resolution LCD on the M9 is capable of reviewing critical focus? Everything I've heard up to now suggests otherwise.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Certainly it is. With a full rez JPEG, you magnify the image to about 8x in Review and can easily see whether the detail is crisp. That as good as you're going to get with any EVF or LCD on camera, including what I've seen with NEX 5n and EVF. Once you get the image magnification to about 1:1 with the display resolution, all pixel displays will show the same thing.

    If you need a better evaluation than that, connect the camera to a computer, transfer the file, and check there. None of this ultra high critical focus checking is fast, neither is landscape work in general. Nothing's ever going to beat transferring the file to a big screen and checking it at 2x magnification for critical accuracy.

    Not that I think such extraordinary focus precision necessary for 99.99999% of any pictorial photography. :-)

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    How I wish I had known that earlier or is true.

    [BTW, anyone wishing to discuss the "shutter lag" in a camera ought to read this. ]
    Not sure I understand your comment, or how there is a relation to shutter lag.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    If you need a better evaluation than that, connect the camera to a computer...
    That comes later, back at base.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Certainly it is. With a full rez JPEG, you magnify the image to about 8x in Review and can easily see whether the detail is crisp.
    Godfrey, thanks, you have given me hope, but as I've said other folk have told me the resolution of the LCD is simply not up to evaluating critical focus. I think I need to try this myself. In the meantime if anyone else could chip in here it would be appreciated.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Godfrey, thanks, you have given me hope, but as I've said other folk have told me the resolution of the LCD is simply not up to evaluating critical focus. I think I need to try this myself. In the meantime if anyone else could chip in here it would be appreciated.
    So I hadn't done this myself yet (such extraordinarily critical focus evaluation is very rarely of interest to me) but I was curious. So I set the M9 on a tripod with the 40mm lens set to f/2 and focused on my bookcase after having "stair stepped" my issues of LensWork magazine to provide a focusing target. This full frame rendering closely approximates what I see on the normal magnification with the M9's review:


    Clicking once goes to about 2x which looks similar to this:


    and going to maximum magnification goes to 1:1 pixel view which looks like the magnified section in this:


    The focus distance from Issue 80 to the image plane was 37 inches and I set the magazines stepped so that #79 was about a quarter inch in front of #80, #78 about a quarter inch behind, the others stepped back an inch at a time and about 3.5 inches from the row of them in the background.

    This seems quite capable of discerning proper focus to me, and very similar to doing the same thing with focus assist magnification at 8x with the Ricoh GXR or Panasonic G1. For more precision in a camera than that, the only thing I've seen that does better was my Nikon F3/T with the high-magnification focusing reticle head fitted to it.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Godfrey, Many thanks, I have to say that's far better than I had expected.

    Puts my Hasselblad to shame.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    The Display of the M9 and M8 allows review of critical focus. I use it to collimate lenses. I've adjusted lenses "on the spot" based on reviewing the focus with the M8 and M9. It is also easy to detect focus shift in lenses using the magified view with the LCD.


    I used the M9, reviewed critical focus with the LCD, to convert this F1.5 Sonnar to Leica mount.





    Actual focus seems pretty close to what the RF indicates...



    "Works for me"

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian S View Post
    The Display of the M9 and M8 allows review of critical focus...
    Brian, appreciated, thanks.

    Amongst other concerns I had the focus shift of the Zeiss ZM Sonnar f1.5 in mind. Needless to say it is on my list.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    So I hadn't done this myself yet (such extraordinarily critical focus evaluation is very rarely of interest to me) but I was curious. So I set the M9 on a tripod with the 40mm lens set to f/2 and focused on my bookcase after having "stair stepped" my issues of LensWork magazine to provide a focusing target. This full frame rendering closely approximates what I see on the normal magnification with the M9's review:


    Clicking once goes to about 2x which looks similar to this:


    and going to maximum magnification goes to 1:1 pixel view which looks like the magnified section in this:


    The focus distance from Issue 80 to the image plane was 37 inches and I set the magazines stepped so that #79 was about a quarter inch in front of #80, #78 about a quarter inch behind, the others stepped back an inch at a time and about 3.5 inches from the row of them in the background.

    This seems quite capable of discerning proper focus to me, and very similar to doing the same thing with focus assist magnification at 8x with the Ricoh GXR or Panasonic G1. For more precision in a camera than that, the only thing I've seen that does better was my Nikon F3/T with the high-magnification focusing reticle head fitted to it.

    Hi Godfrey,

    Many, many thanks for this topic and the demonstration. Fantastic.
    I will repeat your experiment right away for my education.

    I have been doing something similar to check the accuracy of my Visoflex IIIs. Instead of the M9, I have used my NEX-5N with an adapter. So, I use the Visoflex to focus, as good as I can, and check with focus peaking and magnification of the NEX-5N.

    In the field I found, that depending on conditions, sometimes optical focus of the Visoflex works best, sometimes focus peaking, and sometimes magnification.

    Now based on your explanations, I finally have a reason to shoot with DNG + JPG Fine to check the accuracy of my M lenses' adjustments. So I can use the M9 LCD display to iteratively focus precisely and then look through the rangefinder to see how far apart the two images are.

    Of course, I can also use an USB cable to hook up the M9 to my MacBook Pro and use Image Capture to shoot images and download them automatically once I have manually adjusted aperture and focus, asuming fixed ISO and the A setting on the shutter speed wheel.

    I had sent in a number of lenses and other gear for CLA, but unfortunately got some of it back in worse adjustment, others in perfect adjustment. For example, 2 of the Visoflexes I checked are now spot on, others I still have to check.

    I feel, based on your input, I now have several procedures to accurately assess the adjustments of my gear without overly relying on my aging eye sight.

    Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and insight.
    Your posts in this thread have been most helpful indeed!

    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Brian, appreciated, thanks.

    Amongst other concerns I had the focus shift of the Zeiss ZM Sonnar f1.5 in mind. Needless to say it is on my list.
    I have the ZM Sonnar 50/1.5, and the focus shift is easily detectable and can be compensated for with a little practice. when stopping down, leave the RF image slightly offset- stop a little bit on the close side. Stopping down shifts the focus towards infinity, past what the RF indicates.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    I also use my M9's LCD to check focus accuracy on my library.

    It works well. I am not joking. I check for focus shift exactly that way.

    For checking focus accuracy on people in the field, however, it is next to worthless. Those are two vastly different tasks. If you need to know if a shot is sharp enough to print larger than a postage stamp you will need to download your images.

    Mind you, I routinely shoot action with my M9 and my Noctilux and I am highly motivated to find a way to use my LCD for this purpose. Unfortunately, it cannot be reliably done, which means it cannot be done.

    The same was true for my M8.

    My D3x is far better at this and even it is not as good as I would like.

    Anyway, bottom line, the M9 LCD is not up to the task.

    Please let me buy a M10 with a decent LCD, better high ISO performance, a reasonable buffer, an accurate battery meter, faster frames per second, live view with an optional EVF and fast write times.

    Best,

    Bill

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Bill,

    I agree.

    Best, K-H.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Thanks, Bill.

    This is what I feared.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Thanks, Bill.

    This is what I feared.
    and yet me and a zillion others are using the M9 and find the LCD perfectly adequate to check focus.

    it's all in the eyes of the beholder and how proficient you get with the rangefinder and learning all your lenses inside and out.

    i shoot frequently with the Noctilux at f/1, other lenses at f/1.4, and do not find the system wanting. if time/place allows, i will check focus on the back and find it is more than adequate. if there isn't time, i have learned to trust in myself and my equipment. (i would be miserable if all my time was spent chimping.)

    honestly, there are a lot of reasons to get an M9 and a lot not to (you either like shooting rangefinders or you don't). frankly, for me, the LCD is neither here nor there, certainly not a barrier. to say it's not up to the task is laughable -- what about all those shooting film?

  39. #39
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    to say it's not up to the task is laughable...
    Let's be clear, I'm not saying the LCD is or is not up to the task, merely asking the question. It would seem that there are those who feel it is up to task and those who feel it isn't.

    Clearly I need to suck it and see.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Let's be clear, I'm not saying the LCD is or is not up to the task, merely asking the question. It would seem that there are those who feel it is up to task and those who feel it isn't.

    Clearly I need to suck it and see.
    precisely.

    which is why asking everyone's opinion on the subject is not going to make a difference on whether it will work for you or not. it will or it won't... and nobody can make that call but you.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian S View Post
    I have the ZM Sonnar 50/1.5, and the focus shift is easily detectable and can be compensated for with a little practice. when stopping down, leave the RF image slightly offset- stop a little bit on the close side. Stopping down shifts the focus towards infinity, past what the RF indicates.
    That is a perfect example where live view is essential where you can check the focus *before* taking a shot and making the process fast.

    FWIW, that particular example of a lens is not the fault of the RF but the lens' design and Zeiss' decision to make and sell it to the RF users!

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    That is a perfect example where live view is essential where you can check the focus *before* taking a shot and making the process fast.

    FWIW, that particular example of a lens is not the fault of the RF but the lens' design and Zeiss' decision to make and sell it to the RF users!
    yes... and i got mine calibrated wide open for the R-D1 so shooting it on the M is ridiculous!

    thank you, though, for reminding me to pull it out when Jono and his NEX visits.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    precisely.

    which is why asking everyone's opinion on the subject is not going to make a difference on whether it will work for you or not.
    Well, excuse me; surely the point of a forum is to share opinion.

    Is it always like this here?


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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Focus shift with Sonnar formula lenses is well known, people buy them, Zeiss cannot make them fast enough to keep up with demand.

    As with any piece of equipment, knowing how to use it is important.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian S View Post
    Focus shift with Sonnar formula lenses is well known, people buy them, Zeiss cannot make them fast enough to keep up with demand.

    As with any piece of equipment, knowing how to use it is important.
    No arguments can be had against that. You know that, Brian.

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    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    [QUOTE=Brian S;385117]Focus shift with Sonnar formula lenses is well known, people buy them, Zeiss cannot make them fast enough to keep up with demand.
    QUOTE]

    The Zeiss ZM Sonnar f1.5 is one of the reasons I'm considering buying into the M system, because of the quirks.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Borrow a set and try it (if you have not already done so), Keith. It is beginning to look like a slow news day at your place.

  48. #48
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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Borrow a set and try it (if you have not already done so), Keith. It is beginning to look like a slow news day at your place.
    Vivek, I'd rent, but unfortunately I've yet to find a Leica dealer who provides the service. Canon, Nikon, Hasselblad, Phase One, Mamiya, Sinar, Leaf...just a phone call away for same day rental, but Leica?

    Why is it Leica seems to target 'sweater man' rather than working photographers?
    Last edited by KeithL; 30th January 2012 at 09:37. Reason: spelling

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Why is it Leica seems to target 'sweater man' rather than working photographers?
    That, bitter man, is a perfect title for a new thread.

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    Re: If Leica goes liveview..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    That is a perfect example where live view is essential where you can check the focus *before* taking a shot and making the process fast.

    FWIW, that particular example of a lens is not the fault of the RF but the lens' design and Zeiss' decision to make and sell it to the RF users!
    Getting precise focus is not necessarily faster with a lens that focus shifts using TTL viewing vs RF focusing. You go at it differently and learn how to focus it properly, then it is just as fast either way.

    It takes time to go to full enlarge mode and/or use focus peaking. Learning how to see the best point of focus with focus peaking is also a learned skill. Over time, with any system, you learn how to do it quickly and easily.

    You can only CONFIRM critical focus after the exposure is made anyway. No matter how critically you focused beforehand, it is what has been recorded which is significant.

    Remember that I work with all three systems ... optical reflex, optical rf, electronic ttl. I find them all excellent, and all have their plusses and minuses for different situations. None is particularly faster than the other in use.

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