Site Sponsors
Results 1 to 43 of 43

Thread: I've seen the future

  1. #1
    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,120
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    66

    I've seen the future

    It's the Sony Nex-7. Go ahead, flame me.

    If you own Leica glass this thing rocks. IQ is equivalent to the M9 but maybe a little more DR. Manual focus works just fine, once you've spent a couple of weeks with it and learn it. I'm slightly astigmatic so the Leica rangefinder spot is tough for me in poor light - I have fewer issues with the Sony.

    The camera is light and of very high build quality. The Novoflex and Voigtlander adapters are excellent.

    The Nex-7 has several stops more of high ISO performance.

    It's very demanding of technique because with 24 megs of resolution the slightest camera movement or mis-focus show up.

    You can't see beyond the edge of the frame, but on the other hand framing is accurate. And you can actually see what long lenses are seeing.

    Once you master it focus may be more accurate than the M9 because you don't have to worry about mating the lens to the rangefinder (on the Nex-7 I found that the infinity focus on my 24mm lux was quite a bit off) or for that matter focus shift.

    The negatives are well documented. Sony needs a firmware update to address the issues that MR identified in his informal review (he did a good job of identifying the needs of shooters using legacy manual focus glass). The viewfinder is dim on the beach or on a ski slope. Classic design wides need work in post to eliminate magenta casts. It would be nice if there were more Nex-7s - the body is marked "Made in Thailand" and the recent flooding has clearly disrupted the supply chain. I paid a premium for mine on eBay but it still costs a lot less than a Leica.

    Of course Fuji has announced its own "mirrorless" interchangeable lens camera with a hybrid viewfinder.

    This is good news and bad news for Leica. The good news is that the Nex-7 (and presumably the Fuji) is a universal platform for manual focus lenses, including Leica lenses. The bad news is that it will be very hard for Leica to keep pace in terms of camera design with companies like Sony and Fuji who have the capacity to design and fabricate their own chips.

    So I'm sleeping much better now as a Leica owner than I did a few years ago. Leica's futures as a lens manufacturer is assured as a result of very robust demand, and I'm assured of a way forward with my Leica lenses that doesn't rely Leica to develop a new M camera body.

    Now if only Sony could shoehorn a 24 x 36 sensor into the Nex form factor . . .

  2. #2
    Senior Member dude163's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    New Brunswick , Canada
    Posts
    1,111
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    It's very demanding of technique because with 24 megs of resolution the slightest camera movement or mis-focus show up.

    You can't see beyond the edge of the frame, but on the other hand framing is accurate. .

    This is why I prefer the rangefinder vs DSLR/micro 4/3rds, I really like using manual glass and I find with the M8 I can focus way better than I can using my Pentax KX or my friends 4/3 camera .

    I hope the future isnt just cameras like the NEX Sonys etc, I think there is room for all types/brands if they have a market to serve

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    24
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: I've seen the future

    The NEX 7 is like the M9? Too bad it's years late.

    The future is the M10.

  4. #4
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,601
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    Now if only Sony could shoehorn a 24 x 36 sensor into the Nex form factor . . .

    Even if it is larger, I would still want one. Live view- that is the key for me.

    I am looking for a couple of my tilt lenses at the moment. As soon as I locate them, I will try them on the NEX-7.

    Can't do that with a mechanical RF cam.

    On the high pixel density and hence being more technically demanding-
    while using high enough shutter speed to take care of that, I can do 10 frames/s without much problem. The shot gun shutter might startle anyone closeby though.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Joe Colson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    North Carolina, USA
    Posts
    1,911
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    36

    Re: I've seen the future

    I just joined the Leica world, having just purchased an M9 and several lenses. But I'm camera system agnostic and welcome your observations on the NEX-7. Lloyd Chambers (diglloyd.com) has been discussing these ALLVIEW (Any Lens Live View) cameras on his blog, and the NEX-7 with Leica lenses seems to be a winner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    This is good news and bad news for Leica. The good news is that the Nex-7 (and presumably the Fuji) is a universal platform for manual focus lenses, including Leica lenses. The bad news is that it will be very hard for Leica to keep pace in terms of camera design with companies like Sony and Fuji who have the capacity to design and fabricate their own chips.
    I totally agree. It won't take long for all of the major camera makers, Nikon and Canon included, to join the fray. As someone who spent 30 years in high technology development and manufacture, I know that Sony, Fuji, Nikon and Canon can manufacture in high volume and defray the cost of manufacture across that volume and across numerous product lines (that use the same parts). Inside the camera body, the sensor is the big ticket item.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    Leica's futures as a lens manufacturer is assured as a result of very robust demand, and I'm assured of a way forward with my Leica lenses that doesn't rely Leica to develop a new M camera body.
    I agree. The demand for Leica lenses can only accelerate in this scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    Now if only Sony could shoehorn a 24 x 36 sensor into the Nex form factor . . .
    They can and will. It's just a matter of time.
    _________________________________
    Joe Colson Photography
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  6. #6
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: I've seen the future

    Woody,
    you ask for flaming....here I go

    The main points for the Nex I see:
    -lower price than M9
    -if one likes to use zooms or needs long reach
    -video and good still in one camera
    -swivel LCD for different perspectives

    Other than that
    -the M9 is faster and more accurate to focus without being disturbed by white/yellow/red lines around edges (thats why I mostly use Nex lenses on the Nex even though I have that adapter and many M-lenses)
    -the M9 shows less noise than the Nex in the ISO range between base ISO and 1000 ISO wich is the most important range for me
    -an OVF doesnt only work better in contrasty/bright light, it also allows to see the real color and allows a much better "connection" to the subject. You look at the real thing, not on a screen/display in a viewfinder
    - M9 very simple intuitive userinterface
    - very limited good wide angle solutions for the NEX so far

    So for photography in the 18-90mm range and the ISO < 1000 range I really prefer the M9 over the Nex.

    So yes, I also see a great future for the Nex, but I dont see less future for Leica M bodies.
    I have been all over the Nex when I got it...new toy, great images....then you use it for a while and ask yourself: what does it really better for my photography than the M9...then I started to use the M9 again here and then...now I am at the point I use the M9 more often than the Nex.

    So in the end I find the Nex7 a great camera, but I am not so sure if it makes sense (for me personally) to use both the M9 and a Nex and if I had to choose one and could afford it I would allways choose the M9.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  7. #7
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    seakayaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    2,889
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: I've seen the future

    Nice review Woody.

    Hopefully you will still continue to post your wonderful photographs that you make with your Leica gear!

    This review may be better suited over in the Sony thread instead of on the Leica M, X, and R (JMHO).

  8. #8
    Senior Member doug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    708
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: I've seen the future

    The NEX-7 looks like a good body for my backup kit; it will allow me to use any lens of every brand in my toy box. My immediate need is with a Nikon adapter so I can use my pre-IF 300mm f/4.5 ED while the 280 APO is in New Jersey for service. If the sensor were full-frame or even only as big as the DMR's sensor there wouldn't be a moment's hesitation: I'd grab it.

  9. #9
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    832
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    Classic design wides need work in post to eliminate magenta casts.
    Just wondering how you approach this?

  10. #10
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    So in the end I find the Nex7 a great camera, but I am not so sure if it makes sense (for me personally) to use both the M9 and a Nex and if I had to choose one and could afford it I would allways choose the M9.
    +1, Definitely, so much so that my NEX7 sits beside me right now, on it's way to a new owner.

    If I didn't have an M9 it'd be different, but if I want zooms and AF then there are better cameras (A77), and if I'm using my Leica glass then I prefer the Leica images, notwithstanding higher DR and better high ISO with the NEX7.

    Just this guy you know

  11. #11
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    4,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1253

    Re: I've seen the future

    Woody: I got one of these babies and it corrects my M8 viewfinder for my astigmatism:
    works well, as I always had problems with those vertical lines

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/leica-...tml#post384251

  12. #12
    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,120
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    66

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Just wondering how you approach [magenta casts with classic wides]?
    I'm a C1 user as a result of owning some MF gear, so I use the C1 LCC corrections. To my eyes the corrected images have a slight overall magenta caste that is easily fixed by desaturating magenta a bit. The issue of course is that the edges of the image where the correction is applied are less robust in terms of further corrections in PS or LR.

    So the 16mm wide end of the WATE is actually much better than the 15mm Voigtlander, but with a less appealing form factor and astronomically greater cost.

    Here's a before and after LCC. I've left the foreground in here, when I shot this I had intended to crop it to a roughly square format and touch up the perspective.





  13. #13
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,929
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: I've seen the future

    An all electronic imaging TTL camera has been the future in my mind since 2002. the NEX 7 is just another step on the way there. but it doesn't replace a rangefinder, an SLR, or any other type of camera. it simply offers a different set of advantages and disadvantages.

    Why is it that every time some rangefinder-styled camera is released, it has to mean "trouble for Leica"? Leica must be doing something incredibly right for everyone who doesn't own one, who is offended by the price tag, etc, to constantly see any other camera that remotely resembles the Leica M to be a challenge to its survival. If it were a piece of junk no one would care. There have been plenty of other excellent cameras which make photographs of a quality comparable to a Leica for decades. They're not the same thing either.

    The Leica M9 is unique ... it's the only 35mm format, optical rangefinder camera available that is optimized for the line of rangefinder lenses made since the 1930s. It is selling very very well indeed despite the very high price. It is not a mass-market product, so its sales success isn't something that challenges Sony, Panasonic, Nikon, Canon, et al.

    Of course, Leica will announce their own TTL electronic imaging camera this coming Fall. And their new S2 system has been well received, despite its even more egregious price. So they're not standing still in the past either.

    Enjoy your NEX 7. It's another good camera on the way to the future. But to pose some huge ballyhoo about how Leica is in in trouble because it exists ... that makes no sense at all.

  14. #14
    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,120
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    66

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    Woody: I got one of these babies and it corrects my M8 viewfinder for my astigmatism:
    works well, as I always had problems with those vertical lines

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/leica-...tml#post384251
    Thanks for the link. I've got an eye exam coming up and I'll order one once my prescription is updated. You're one of the few lucky guys in the world who has a major machine shop available to fix the "drops off of the camera" issue. How have you made out with it?

  15. #15
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    832
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    I'm a C1 user as a result of owning some MF gear, so I use the C1 LCC corrections. To my eyes the corrected images have a slight overall magenta caste that is easily fixed by desaturating magenta a bit. The issue of course is that the edges of the image where the correction is applied are less robust in terms of further corrections in PS or LR.
    ..
    Woody, many thanks.

    For the moment I'm hanging on in the hope the M10 - or Leica's new system - delivers focus confirmation and accurate framing.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Ario Arioldi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Milano, Italy
    Posts
    784
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: I've seen the future

    Thank you Woody for sharing your experience.
    My main concern, based on tests done by others, about the use of the Nex 7 with M wide angles, is not about the color cast, which is not so difficult to deal with, but with the loss of resolution/sharpness at the edges, at least in comparison with M9 and also with Ricoh GXR.
    This potential issue is well addressed also in a recent paper by H.H. Nasse of Zeiss.

  17. #17
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    k-hawinkler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The "Land of Enchantment"
    Posts
    3,298
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ario Arioldi View Post
    Thank you Woody for sharing your experience.
    My main concern, based on tests done by others, about the use of the Nex 7 with M wide angles, is not about the color cast, which is not so difficult to deal with, but with the loss of resolution/sharpness at the edges, at least in comparison with M9 and also with Ricoh GXR.
    This potential issue is well addressed also in a recent paper by H.H. Nasse of Zeiss.

    Could you please give the url of that paper?

    Thanks, K-H.

  18. #18
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    832
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ario Arioldi View Post
    Thank you Woody for sharing your experience.
    My main concern, based on tests done by others, about the use of the Nex 7 with M wide angles, is not about the color cast, which is not so difficult to deal with, but with the loss of resolution/sharpness at the edges, at least in comparison with M9 and also with Ricoh GXR.
    This potential issue is well addressed also in a recent paper by H.H. Nasse of Zeiss.
    I would imagine this is also likely to be a problem with the Fuji X-Pro1?

  19. #19
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,929
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    I would imagine this is also likely to be a problem with the Fuji X-Pro1?
    Yes, I expect it is too. We won't know for sure until the X-Pro1 ships, of course.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Ario Arioldi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Milano, Italy
    Posts
    784
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Could you please give the url of that paper?

    Thanks, K-H.
    The paper I mentioned is here:
    http://blogs.zeiss.com/photo/en/wp-c...s_Distagon.pdf

  21. #21
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    It's the Sony Nex-7. Go ahead, flame me.

    If you own Leica glass this thing rocks. IQ is equivalent to the M9 but maybe a little more DR. Manual focus works just fine, once you've spent a couple of weeks with it and learn it. I'm slightly astigmatic so the Leica rangefinder spot is tough for me in poor light - I have fewer issues with the Sony.

    The camera is light and of very high build quality. The Novoflex and Voigtlander adapters are excellent.

    The Nex-7 has several stops more of high ISO performance.

    It's very demanding of technique because with 24 megs of resolution the slightest camera movement or mis-focus show up.

    You can't see beyond the edge of the frame, but on the other hand framing is accurate. And you can actually see what long lenses are seeing.

    Once you master it focus may be more accurate than the M9 because you don't have to worry about mating the lens to the rangefinder (on the Nex-7 I found that the infinity focus on my 24mm lux was quite a bit off) or for that matter focus shift.

    The negatives are well documented. Sony needs a firmware update to address the issues that MR identified in his informal review (he did a good job of identifying the needs of shooters using legacy manual focus glass). The viewfinder is dim on the beach or on a ski slope. Classic design wides need work in post to eliminate magenta casts. It would be nice if there were more Nex-7s - the body is marked "Made in Thailand" and the recent flooding has clearly disrupted the supply chain. I paid a premium for mine on eBay but it still costs a lot less than a Leica.

    Of course Fuji has announced its own "mirrorless" interchangeable lens camera with a hybrid viewfinder.

    This is good news and bad news for Leica. The good news is that the Nex-7 (and presumably the Fuji) is a universal platform for manual focus lenses, including Leica lenses. The bad news is that it will be very hard for Leica to keep pace in terms of camera design with companies like Sony and Fuji who have the capacity to design and fabricate their own chips.

    So I'm sleeping much better now as a Leica owner than I did a few years ago. Leica's futures as a lens manufacturer is assured as a result of very robust demand, and I'm assured of a way forward with my Leica lenses that doesn't rely Leica to develop a new M camera body.

    Now if only Sony could shoehorn a 24 x 36 sensor into the Nex form factor . . .
    Good review Woody, glad the NEX-7 pleases you ... after all, that's all that really counts.

    Personally, my greatest hope is that Leica doesn't even try to keep pace with all the "Pocket Rocket" technology. A road less traveled has always been their charm, and they've never done very well when trying to please too many people ... it just leads to the inevitable direct comparison to other products that do please the majority, and cost a lot less.

    They still have a unique product ... to toss out that uniqueness, without something equally unique that does the same thing, would be a grievous error.

    IMO, the NEX-5, 5n, or 7, or any other such product to date is not the same as a rangefinder, especially a rangefinder of this caliber. They are simply alternative ways of seeing, that just happen to use M lenses if you wish.

    BTW, one of your positives "seeing what the lens sees", is why I personally will never see these cameras as replacing a true rangefinder, and the rangefinder way of seeing the world around you.

    Be well,

    -Marc

  22. #22
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    k-hawinkler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The "Land of Enchantment"
    Posts
    3,298
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ario Arioldi View Post
    Thank you.

    K-H.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  23. #23
    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,120
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    66

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Good review Woody, glad the NEX-7 pleases you ... after all, that's all that really counts.

    Personally, my greatest hope is that Leica doesn't even try to keep pace with all the "Pocket Rocket" technology. A road less traveled has always been their charm, and they've never done very well when trying to please too many people ... it just leads to the inevitable direct comparison to other products that do please the majority, and cost a lot less.

    They still have a unique product ... to toss out that uniqueness, without something equally unique that does the same thing, would be a grievous error.

    IMO, the NEX-5, 5n, or 7, or any other such product to date is not the same as a rangefinder, especially a rangefinder of this caliber. They are simply alternative ways of seeing, that just happen to use M lenses if you wish.

    BTW, one of your positives "seeing what the lens sees", is why I personally will never see these cameras as replacing a true rangefinder, and the rangefinder way of seeing the world around you.

    Be well,

    -Marc
    Marc - my positive comment on seeing related to long lenses, where seeing what the lens sees may be preferable to a tiny frame. On the wides I prefer the Leica approach. I shoot wides most of the time. At this point I'm viewing the Nex-7 as a welcome (and fun and provacative) alternative, not a replacement - Leica is throughly imbedded in my working style. I also think that full frame is important so the lenses can fill their intended niches.

  24. #24
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    Marc - my positive comment on seeing related to long lenses, where seeing what the lens sees may be preferable to a tiny frame. On the wides I prefer the Leica approach. I shoot wides most of the time. At this point I'm viewing the Nex-7 as a welcome (and fun and provacative) alternative, not a replacement - Leica is throughly imbedded in my working style. I also think that full frame is important so the lenses can fill their intended niches.
    HI Woody
    When my NEX7 came along I felt exactly the same as you . . . focus peaking WOW (I still think it's splendid). But I found I was using the NEX when I would otherwise use an M9, and that the results and the experience, although very good, were not as good . . so for me it's back to the M9.

    For longer lenses I'd rather the much faster focus of the A77, and let's face it, with larger lenses the body size becomes less significant (although the crop sensor may become an advantage).

    Which is why, despite it's nice handling and excellent IQ, the NEX7 fell between two stools for me . . i.e. not as good as the M9 for wides, and not as good as the A77 / A900 for long lenses.

    (I can see Marc grinning as I write this!).

    Just this guy you know

  25. #25
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Woody
    When my NEX7 came along I felt exactly the same as you . . . focus peaking WOW (I still think it's splendid). But I found I was using the NEX when I would otherwise use an M9, and that the results and the experience, although very good, were not as good . . so for me it's back to the M9.

    For longer lenses I'd rather the much faster focus of the A77, and let's face it, with larger lenses the body size becomes less significant (although the crop sensor may become an advantage).

    Which is why, despite it's nice handling and excellent IQ, the NEX7 fell between two stools for me . . i.e. not as good as the M9 for wides, and not as good as the A77 / A900 for long lenses.

    (I can see Marc grinning as I write this!).
    So Jono, but what does the A77 offer you over the A900?

  26. #26
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    So Jono, but what does the A77 offer you over the A900?
    HI Tom
    Interesting question that. It's actually a toss up, but here are some random thoughts:
    A77
    1. I like the EVF showing exposure WB etc. whilst shooting
    2. I like the longer range the APS/c sensor gives me with lenses (I use M9 for wides)
    3. It's smaller and lighter
    4. I like the twisty LCD and live view
    5. Focus peaking makes it easy to use Leica R lenses

    A900
    1. I like the optical viewfinder - especially in very bright light
    2. The image quality is probably better at the ISO I usually use
    3. FF sensor

    I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point, and perhaps it's a little off topic!

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

  27. #27
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Tom
    Interesting question that. It's actually a toss up, but here are some random thoughts:
    A77
    1. I like the EVF showing exposure WB etc. whilst shooting
    2. I like the longer range the APS/c sensor gives me with lenses (I use M9 for wides)
    3. It's smaller and lighter
    4. I like the twisty LCD and live view
    5. Focus peaking makes it easy to use Leica R lenses

    A900
    1. I like the optical viewfinder - especially in very bright light
    2. The image quality is probably better at the ISO I usually use
    3. FF sensor

    I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point, and perhaps it's a little off topic!

    all the best
    I think your logic is excellent regarding the use of longer lenses Jono. Putting the superb 135/1/8 on a NEX just never worked for me at all.

    As far as adding all the positives you list for the A77 and those of the A900 in comparison, that is why I have great hope for a A99 FF to replace one of my A900s, not both. I would also like to see exposure and WB in crappy lighting scenarios, and will accept a EVF for those applications even though I am not a fan. The objectives over-ride my personal likes and dislikes ... with the end results dictating all of it.

    -Marc

  28. #28
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I think your logic is excellent regarding the use of longer lenses Jono. Putting the superb 135/1/8 on a NEX just never worked for me at all.

    As far as adding all the positives you list for the A77 and those of the A900 in comparison, that is why I have great hope for a A99 FF to replace one of my A900s, not both. I would also like to see exposure and WB in crappy lighting scenarios, and will accept a EVF for those applications even though I am not a fan. The objectives over-ride my personal likes and dislikes ... with the end results dictating all of it.

    -Marc
    Absolutely Marc - and a reason to keep away from the D800e until the dust has settled.
    It's fine to have a solution which works NOW - so that there really isn't a need to make system changing decisions in haste. (buying and selling NEX cameras is not a system changing decision . . . moving from an M9 to a NEX would be!)

    Just this guy you know

  29. #29
    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,120
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    66

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Absolutely Marc - and a reason to keep away from the D800e until the dust has settled.
    It's fine to have a solution which works NOW - so that there really isn't a need to make system changing decisions in haste. (buying and selling NEX cameras is not a system changing decision . . . moving from an M9 to a NEX would be!)
    Actually adapting the Nex as a second or third body isn't a system change at all for a Leica M shooter. It's buying exactly one body and one adapter. What you don't get is autofocus - I don't need it in good light and in poor light the Nex hunts badly enough that it isn't useful. The way my use of it may sort out is as an alternate body for poor light situations (still not a perfect solution - there's a reason why most people who shoot events use 5Ds or the like).

  30. #30
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    832
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Personally, my greatest hope is that Leica doesn't even try to keep pace with all the "Pocket Rocket" technology. A road less traveled has always been their charm, and they've never done very well when trying to please too many people ... it just leads to the inevitable direct comparison to other products that do please the majority, and cost a lot less.

    They still have a unique product ... to toss out that uniqueness, without something equally unique that does the same thing, would be a grievous error.
    I can understand this point of view, indeed I often hear it said.

    I'd imagine it unlikely the M10 will bring fundamental changes to the M series concept that could alienate current M users. I think it more likely that any fundamental change will come in the form of an addition to the current Leica range.

    That said I can't help hoping that the M10 does have the option to check critical focus and framing pre-capture. I hope they step up production so that it's possible to actually buy the lenses. I also hope they offer better servicing options for those in the UK...

    etc…

  31. #31
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    Actually adapting the Nex as a second or third body isn't a system change at all for a Leica M shooter. It's buying exactly one body and one adapter.
    No indeed Woody - I wasn't implying that it was . . but replacing an M9 with a NEX would amount to a system change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    What you don't get is autofocus - I don't need it in good light and in poor light the Nex hunts badly enough that it isn't useful. The way my use of it may sort out is as an alternate body for poor light situations (still not a perfect solution - there's a reason why most people who shoot events use 5Ds or the like).
    I quite agree about the AF - in good light the rangefinder is better . . and in bad light the rangefinder is better too.
    When I started to really compare the files at higher ISO, I didn't find the NEX files to be that much better - and although I really liked focus peaking (even in low light), losing the clarity the lack of AA filter confers to the images wasn't worth the candle either.
    In the final analysis I couldn't find any situation when I wouldn't be better off either shooting an M9 - or an A900/A77.

    Just this guy you know

  32. #32
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    I can understand this point of view, indeed I often hear it said.

    I'd imagine it unlikely the M10 will bring fundamental changes to the M series concept that could alienate current M users. I think it more likely that any fundamental change will come in the form of an addition to the current Leica range.

    That said I can't help hoping that the M10 does have the option to check critical focus and framing pre-capture. I hope they step up production so that it's possible to actually buy the lenses. I also hope they offer better servicing options for those in the UK...

    etc…
    I think you're quite right about the M10 - no change to concept - I'd also like to see options to check critical focus and framing. I don't think that'd spoil the concept.

    As for servicing, I've been getting excellent service from Solms - i.e. stick it in a box and post it airsure to Andrea at Leica. It takes the same time to get there as it used to take to get to Milton Keynes, and they communicate well and seem to do the servicing and repair quickly and efficiently these days. (at least, that's what I've found).

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

  33. #33
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    I can understand this point of view, indeed I often hear it said.

    I'd imagine it unlikely the M10 will bring fundamental changes to the M series concept that could alienate current M users. I think it more likely that any fundamental change will come in the form of an addition to the current Leica range.

    That said I can't help hoping that the M10 does have the option to check critical focus and framing pre-capture. I hope they step up production so that it's possible to actually buy the lenses. I also hope they offer better servicing options for those in the UK...

    etc…
    All indications point to continued optical rangefinder, but use of a CMOS sensor in the M10 along with Live view. Fundamentally, that doesn't bother me at all, and will facilitate checking critical focus when desired. However, I'm not all that sure about the CMOS part ... so I secured a M9P in Chrome with hardened LCD for a durable, longer lasting M ... and will use a M10 in concert with it.

    The lack of available lenses is frustrating to be sure, and I doubt that will abate anytime soon. I am after a 50/1.4 ASPH in chrome, and you'd think it was the Crown Jewels of England I was asking for.

    -Marc

  34. #34
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    832
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    As for servicing, I've been getting excellent service from Solms - i.e. stick it in a box and post it airsure to Andrea at Leica. It takes the same time to get there as it used to take to get to Milton Keynes, and they communicate well and seem to do the servicing and repair quickly and efficiently these days. (at least, that's what I've found).
    Jono, many thanks, that's certainly reassuring.

  35. #35
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    832
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    All indications point to continued optical rangefinder, but use of a CMOS sensor in the M10 along with Live view.
    Marc, thanks, live view would suit this M wannabe just fine, but I do understand your concerns about CMOS.

    I guess time will tell.

  36. #36
    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,120
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    66

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    All indications point to continued optical rangefinder, but use of a CMOS sensor in the M10 along with Live view. Fundamentally, that doesn't bother me at all, and will facilitate checking critical focus when desired. However, I'm not all that sure about the CMOS part ... so I secured a M9P in Chrome with hardened LCD for a durable, longer lasting M ... and will use a M10 in concert with it.

    The lack of available lenses is frustrating to be sure, and I doubt that will abate anytime soon. I am after a 50/1.4 ASPH in chrome, and you'd think it was the Crown Jewels of England I was asking for.

    -Marc
    Interesting strategy on the M9. I guess I should have mine done.

    I'm using an M8.2 as a backup body. I may sell it and rely on the Nex as a backup. I also use the M8 for periodic binges of IR shooting. The Nex-7's IR blocking is too good for it to be useful for this. An IR modified Nex-7 might be outstanding - I'll check it out.

  37. #37
    Member Seascape's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    239
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    All indications point to continued optical rangefinder, but use of a CMOS sensor in the M10 along with Live view. Fundamentally, that doesn't bother me at all, and will facilitate checking critical focus when desired. However, I'm not all that sure about the CMOS part ... so I secured a M9P in Chrome with hardened LCD for a durable, longer lasting M ... and will use a M10 in concert with it.

    -Marc
    I am also concerned about the change to a CMOS sensor.
    I keep looking at high quality images from CMOS sensor cameras, and they just don't seem to have that Leica CCD sensor snap and micro contrast. They appear to have this somewhat washed out look to the image.

    I would love to buy a next generation CCD sensor in a M10, it just seems it isn't in the cards. So does the M9 become an instant classic ???

    In a digital world you just assume that something better is just around the corner, I'm concerned that a M10 may have more features without improving IQ

  38. #38
    Senior Member doug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    708
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Seascape View Post
    I am also concerned about the change to a CMOS sensor.
    I keep looking at high quality images from CMOS sensor cameras, and they just don't seem to have that Leica CCD sensor snap and micro contrast. They appear to have this somewhat washed out look to the image.
    That may be an artifact of the mass-market camera makers' emphasis on lowering noise at high ISO, not the sensor technology.

    If the sensor's Color Filter Array (CFA) has sharp frequency cutoff for the red, green and blue filters less light reaches the pixel wells but there's less extraneous light from other wavelengths so the color distinctions are clearer. The disadvantage of this CFA is poorer noise performance at high ISO settings.

  39. #39
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    4,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1253

    Re: I've seen the future

    I added two more tiny screws, making three spaced equally around and pointed them so they get a good grip. working pretty good. i did the same thing about a renewed eye exam.

    let me know






    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    Thanks for the link. I've got an eye exam coming up and I'll order one once my prescription is updated. You're one of the few lucky guys in the world who has a major machine shop available to fix the "drops off of the camera" issue. How have you made out with it?

  40. #40
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    281
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: I've seen the future

    As someone who has tried M4/3 and the NEX system, I have chosen to look at it this way. Mirrorless is the future. I consider the M series to be mirrorless as well.

    I have just picked up my first M camera today. The M9, in case you are wondering. I have a few M lenses that I bought for the NEX series camera's. I was very happy with the output from the 5N and the 7N is very good from 35mm up. I like wide angles, and the M9 will do that for me. Also, I like full frame bokeh/images from fast lenses. The noctilux is in my future, once I have donated a kidney

    The NEX is the perfect complement to the M series. You can stick your lens on it and shoot away, videos, stills etc... If you need AF, if offers two good lenses - 24 & 50mm so far. The body is smaller than the M, quieter, and with peaking it is very useful. I can even put my 80-200/4 R lens on it.

    The NEX will replace my DSLR system. I am not 100% sure about RF focusing, ask me in a couple of weeks...
    Home page: www.aphotovid.com

    Check out my gear blog!

  41. #41
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    k-hawinkler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The "Land of Enchantment"
    Posts
    3,298
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: I've seen the future

    I certainly appreciate my M9 and my Nikons D3, D300, and pretty soon D800E. Having gained about a month of experience with my NEX-5N has been very educational and I am definitely keeping it, pretty soon joined by the NEX-7. As the latter has the highest pixel density and a crop factor of 1.5x, I expect it to be very useful for Tele-lenses, particularly very long ones for the extra reach and good performance in the center of the sensor.

    Focus peaking has been a net benefit and I wish it was offered in future cameras bei Leica, Nikon, and Fuji as well.

    K-H.

  42. #42
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,929
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: I've seen the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Gough View Post
    As someone who has tried M4/3 and the NEX system, I have chosen to look at it this way. Mirrorless is the future. I consider the M series to be mirrorless as well.

    I have just picked up my first M camera today. The M9, in case you are wondering. I have a few M lenses that I bought for the NEX series camera's. I was very happy with the output from the 5N and the 7N is very good from 35mm up. I like wide angles, and the M9 will do that for me. Also, I like full frame bokeh/images from fast lenses. The noctilux is in my future, once I have donated a kidney

    The NEX is the perfect complement to the M series. You can stick your lens on it and shoot away, videos, stills etc... If you need AF, if offers two good lenses - 24 & 50mm so far. The body is smaller than the M, quieter, and with peaking it is very useful. I can even put my 80-200/4 R lens on it.

    The NEX will replace my DSLR system. ...
    Replace NEX with Ricoh GXR in the above and that's a +1.

    The GXR-M is the next best thing to a Leica M8 and M9 for Leica RF lenses and does brilliantly with my SLR lenses too. It may not be 24 Mpixel but you could hardly tell that from the quality it produces. :-)

  43. #43
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    281
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: I've seen the future

    Godfrey, I had one of those Ricoh GR's back in the film days. It was a superb little camera that went everywhere with me! The GXR is tempting, but I am somewhat invested in the Sony's for now. I think that the 7n will be a big hit when it arrives. (hows that for starting a rumour!)
    Home page: www.aphotovid.com

    Check out my gear blog!

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •