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Thread: Lens choices: portability vs speed

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    Lens choices: portability vs speed

    I am just re-exploring my M9-setup (I do that every 1-2 years after coming back from other "journeys" like the K5 or the Nex).

    And while I still own and keep some f1.4 M-lenses I now enjoy a lot the tiny 35 and 50 Summarits. It is not so much about carrying a little more or less weight, however its nice to pack it in an even smaller bag and I kind of like the handling and the "classic" and simple feel of those small lenses.
    I am even tempted to replace my 21/2.8 with a 21/3.4.

    There is a lot of talk about the 1.4 glass, but f2.5 on ff-sensor isnt exactly slow.

    So I wondered if there are crazy guys like me who own several focal length in 2 versions (1 fast and 1 compact), and even more interested which is the best compromise for YOU between speed and portability.

    Cheers,Tom

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    I am just re-exploring my M9-setup (I do that every 1-2 years after coming back from other "journeys" like the K5 or the Nex).

    And while I still own and keep some f1.4 M-lenses I now enjoy a lot the tiny 35 and 50 Summarits. It is not so much about carrying a little more or less weight, however its nice to pack it in an even smaller bag and I kind of like the handling and the "classic" and simple feel of those small lenses.
    I am even tempted to replace my 21/2.8 with a 21/3.4.

    There is a lot of talk about the 1.4 glass, but f2.5 on ff-sensor isnt exactly slow.

    So I wondered if there are crazy guys like me who own several focal length in 2 versions (1 fast and 1 compact), and even more interested which is the best compromise for YOU between speed and portability.

    Cheers,Tom
    I'd add ability to focus to that list of smaller lens/ slower aperture attributes. As my eyes have taken a swan dive into aging blurriness, f/2 lenses are looking more and more attractive. I'll maintain my 21/1.4 and 35/1.4 for low light work, but I sold my 50/0.95, 74/1.4 and 90/2 ... and am considering a 50/2, and already have a 90/2.8 (which is a sleeper of a lens and quite small). The bonus is less to carry.

    -Marc

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    In the winter I am shooting mostly in Florida . Plenty of light even early and late in the day. My primary set up is 21/3.4asph,28/2,50/1.4asph and the 90/2.8 M with 2 M9 s .

    I have a very light mesh vest (Ex Officio) that I keep loaded so that I can pick up 2 bodies and go out without much thought . (So I use no bag ).

    The 21/3.4asph is now one of my favorite lenses ..its just performs in almost any situation . Its IQ is slightly better than the 21/2.8asph in that its sharper wide open edge to edge and it has less distortion . Size isn t much different except for the hood on the 21.2.8.

    Because of the strong light I will shoot much of my street shooting between f4-f8 . At those apertures I am not giving up any material IQ and I have a kit that lets me move .

    The 90 2.8M isn t quite a 90/2 asph but its smaller and lighter and at F4-f8 pretty exceptional . If I was expecting to shoot a lot at f2-2.8 and to use the 90 heavily I would take the summicron.

    The 28/2 and the 50/1.4asph seem to work in almost any situation and I always take those 2 lenses when I travel.

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    I agree with Marc s point on the 50 summicron and I need to put that lens to better use . I have found the slightly lower contrast of the 50 summicron(compared to the 50 lux asph to match up nicely with the strong Florida late afternoon light. )

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    After four years wth Leica M and ownership of seven lenses (at different times), I think I have figured out what will work best for me--35 f1.4 v1, 50 f2, and 90 f2.8. (This means I need to purchase this 35 and repurchase this 50.) Theses lenses have a fairly similar rendering and speed at 35. Also, they are fairly compact, especially the 50 and even 90. While I could afford more than three lenses and more than one lens at a particular focal length, I don't want to. I want more of a minimal set that I can easily manage and learn to use well.

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    You guys are funny. Reading this post made me totally rethink the set up I will take with me this weekend to Sarasota, where my wife will be running the Sarasota 1/2 marathon. I was going to take a Sony a900, an R 50/1.4 and maybe a Sony flash. After reading this post, I junked that idea and decided to take an Epson mounted with a Canon 35/1.9 in M mount. I would take an M6 and the 35/1.9 but film processing and scanning is waaaayyyy tooooo slow for those family members who will be the subject of my pictures. Gotta make the family happy.

    I am seriously thinking of getting a Nex 5 or 7 for those occasions in which portability, convenience, and lightness are paramount.

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    Quote Originally Posted by MikalWGrass View Post
    You guys are funny. Reading this post made me totally rethink the set up I will take with me this weekend to Sarasota, where my wife will be running the Sarasota 1/2 marathon. I was going to take a Sony a900, an R 50/1.4 and maybe a Sony flash. After reading this post, I junked that idea and decided to take an Epson mounted with a Canon 35/1.9 in M mount. I would take an M6 and the 35/1.9 but film processing and scanning is waaaayyyy tooooo slow for those family members who will be the subject of my pictures. Gotta make the family happy.

    I am seriously thinking of getting a Nex 5 or 7 for those occasions in which portability, convenience, and lightness are paramount.
    you dont need a Nex if you have a rd1.
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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    Far be it from me to comment on others wishes/needs with respect to lens choice
    but,IMHO, unless one is working or photographing,regularly, in low,or challenging, light situations then the bulk attached to most of the 1.4 asphs sort of defeats one of the
    primary benefits of the 'M' experience. Again only my opinion.
    I'm part of the way back into a two body,5 lens M9 setup (though with some hiccups)
    with my original plan being 21 3.4, 28 2.8asph, 50 2.0 ,75 2.0 and 90 2.8 - all fantastically compact and capable
    Had problems with colorcast on the 28 so retooled to an excellent 24 2.8 asph
    Unfortunately this throws an odd gap into my lineup.
    Will add a 35 2.0 asph to bridge the space between 24 and 50.

    Even though I'm a fast glass addict in my DSLR system don't feel i will miss the faster
    and larger M alternatives.
    I shoot a lot in low and night light and have been more underwhelmed at iso performance over 800 than the majority of people but would welcome improved
    performance in this regard with a next gen M body which would be a double benefit for
    using the slower and smaller M lenses in these situations.

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    The Canon 50/1.5 is fast and small, fits on a Leica CL and goes into the pouch case on it. Use it on a Leica IIIf without blocking the viewfinder. There are fast and compact lenses.

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    Marc,

    Should have added that the 50 2.0 performs flawlessly and combined with the
    small footprint a joy to use.

    Mark
    Mark Tomalty Fine Art and Stock Photography

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    Since both portability and speed have their advantages, I just picked up enough lenses for each scenario...

    The CV Color Skopar LTM lenses are generally very good, especially for the money - and ridiculously tiny. For speed, I started going more towards Leica - with a 50 Lux and 28 Cron along with a CV 35 Nokton (which I'll probably replace with the 35 Lux FLE at some point). I try to keep the longer end kind of "sane" and prefer the 90 Elmarit-M and 135 Tele-Elmar-M rather than the fast versions (though the 90 Cron is interesting for sure).

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    Horses for courses . . .
    some days I'll take a 24 f1.4 on one body and the 0.95 nocti on another.
    some days it'll be the 28 'cron on one and the 75 'cron on another (usually with the WATE in the bag). Other days it might be the 35 summarit and the 90 slim elmarit (what a good lens that is).

    but I agree with Tom - the M9 with the little 35 summarit is a thing of joy and wonder as well.

    . . . . . . and Marc - the answer to ageing blurriness is not dioptre adjustments, or magnifiers . . It's

    CONTACT LENSES


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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    The way I do it today is that I often carry 1 fast lens (35 or 50) and 2 or 3 slower lenses. When I know I will only shoot in bright light I might bring just the "slower" lenses.
    I need to experiment more before I might be willing to sell 1 of my Summiluxes.

    Has anybody compared the 50 cron to the Summarit?
    I only know from from the 35mm focal length that the SUmmarit might draw a bit "smoother" in regards to bokeh and contrast which made me choose the Summarit.

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    The way I do it today is that I often carry 1 fast lens (35 or 50) and 2 or 3 slower lenses. When I know I will only shoot in bright light I might bring just the "slower" lenses.
    I need to experiment more before I might be willing to sell 1 of my Summiluxes.

    Has anybody compared the 50 cron to the Summarit?
    I only know from from the 35mm focal length that the SUmmarit might draw a bit "smoother" in regards to bokeh and contrast which made me choose the Summarit.
    I'd like to know that also.

    I find that I use my 35/1.4 ASPH for the f/1.4 more than I ever did the 50/1.4 ... probably more due to needing the fast aperture indoors in limited space and lower light ... and especially when walking about with just one lens at night.

    Anyone use the Zeiss 50/2 Planar ... I'm not adverse to going Zeiss for a 50mm. Focus shift issues? Other?

    -Marc

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Horses for courses . . .
    some days I'll take a 24 f1.4 on one body and the 0.95 nocti on another.
    some days it'll be the 28 'cron on one and the 75 'cron on another (usually with the WATE in the bag). Other days it might be the 35 summarit and the 90 slim elmarit (what a good lens that is).

    but I agree with Tom - the M9 with the little 35 summarit is a thing of joy and wonder as well.

    . . . . . . and Marc - the answer to ageing blurriness is not dioptre adjustments, or magnifiers . . It's

    CONTACT LENSES

    Yes, I heard you the first time Jono ...

    The issue for me is due to an eye injury when younger ... I can see almost perfectly in good light with a diopter, but at night my vision loses so much contrast detection as to be very dicey for getting a longer lens in focus at f/0.95 or f/1.4 ... the very time I need those apertures. Irakly has tried to get me to shoot left eyed like he does after a tennis accident left his right eye in a similar condition ... but I just can't seem to make it work for me like he did.

    Okay, so I'm handicapped ... stop yelling at me to get up out of the wheelchair and play soccer with you

    -Marc
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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    I also keep gravitating to smaller lenses for travel. Just got back from Hawaii and used M9, Summarit 35 and 50, plus ME 90, and 28 2.8ASPH.

    Any one of them would fit in a tiny slim waist pouch on the M9, and one other in my pocket. So I would go out each day with two lenses, but almost zero bulk. I have both the 50 cron and 50 Summarit and donít really see any difference. The summarits are really sharp and clear at any aperture from my experience. I also found the summicron would just not quite fit the waist pouch without stretching it too much for my liking.

    I also use a Artisan & Artist wrist strap, so if I want to wear the camera on my wrist it is great, or store it in the pouch it is small but pops out easily.

    In the evenings, I would put just the 50 or 35 on and go available light. On the sidewalk, 800 plus F2.5 was fine (They actually test 2.4 when I do comparisons at home vs other lenses) If I want a scenic night shot then I would balance the camera on a bench, or wall, or use my tiny 4 inch mini tripod, use self timer and ISO 200 and get fantastic timed shots at F4 etc.

    So even though I have the F1 Noct, and some other fast ones, I keep coming back to the tiny summarits for travel. However I do like focusing the 50 Summicron better than the Summarit because the ring is easier for me on the cron.

    Dave

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I'd like to know that also.

    I find that I use my 35/1.4 ASPH for the f/1.4 more than I ever did the 50/1.4 ... probably more due to needing the fast aperture indoors in limited space and lower light ... and especially when walking about with just one lens at night.

    Anyone use the Zeiss 50/2 Planar ... I'm not adverse to going Zeiss for a 50mm. Focus shift issues? Other?

    -Marc
    I have a 50 ZM . It signature is high contrast and superb resolution ...I think it has higher contrast than the 50 1.4asph but I never did a side by side .

    I found it particularly effective for black and white on overcast days like europe in the winter . I think its a decent match with the 35 1.4 lux asph in that they both render with high edge contrast . In color it has the typical zeiss look of deep blues,blacks .

    Under rated lens compared to the more prevalent Leica versions .

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Okay, so I'm handicapped ... stop yelling at me to get up out of the wheelchair and play soccer with you

    -Marc
    Okay - so I'll stop yelling . . . but I'm not dropping the point - night vision and old sight is an interesting and complex subject. I suffer (and benefit) from considerable night myopia.

    However, if a dioptre is of benefit to you, I'm not sure why a targeted contact lens might not be as well.

    Of course, if you've found an optometrist who is up on this subject, and who has written you off as a wheelchair case, then I'll rest my case.

    I was talking to mine the week before last when I had my 3 month checkup, and he was saying that in a very high proportion of people who said it didn't work, it was a function of not getting the right advice (he said that he, like all opticians, much preferred selling spectacles to contact lenses). He has quite a lot of clients who just wear one contact lens - effectively a reading lens.

    This is my religion - because it's changed the way I work so radically (to be honest it's rather changed my life) - I found it difficult to get used to, but now, sitting in a dark room with my 17"mbp and being able to read this small print without glasses . . . and also focus my Noctilux without glasses . . I get kind of evangelical about it!

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    Slightly OT, I, too, tried the contact lens route, and while I understand Jono's POV, it never really worked for me. More recently, the problem of developing early cataracts [began to lose contrast, and very sensitive to glare] "solved" the problem of focus and frameline visualizaton for me. I was very myopic originally, but after talking with the ophthalmologist, when she replaced the lenses in both my eyes, the correction was slightly different in my left [dominant] eye, allowing me to now get by without reading glasses, and leaving me with good enough binocular distant vision to manage without glasses, especially during the day. She also explained to me that a lot of high myopes don't do well if corrected back to 20/20, as they then [at my age] have to wear glasses for anything within a few feet, after a lifetime of working close. I can also now work at my computer without my glasses, and focus my 75 Summicron consistently. Wouldn't recommend that sort of surgery, obviously, unless one already needed it, but it was a nice bonus.

    As for traveling light, M9 + v4 35mm Summicron during the day, v1 35mm Nokton at night.

    By the way, while I never knew my color vision had changed, the difference with new, neutral, clear lens replacements is amazing!

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    It's funny; I'm used to schlepping around 25lbs. of DSLR kit... So even fast RF lenses don't bother me, as it could (and used to be) a lot worse. Plus I'm a sucker for fast glass.

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    Size apart, and small is nice if you want a comapct camera bag, it is worth remembering that even a fast lens can be stopped down to f2.8. And that is where I would normally set my downward (or is it upward?) limit if light isn't a consideration. I like the transition from OOF to in-focus you get at this sort of aperture, not so wide open that things out of focus are a mushy blur, but stopped down enough so there is still some identifiable tonal structure in objects in the OOF regions. It is a classic look, a look where things can encroach into the frame and still be recognisable and not indecipherable, ideal for people pictures, 'street', etc. where a busy image is going to encompass many things.

    Steve

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    I have recently tried to simplify my kit so decided on M9 + 3 Summicrons 28/50/90 + Xpan for film. Can fit in easily in a Crumpler 6 Million dollar home and is light. Agree with comments above on 50 summicron. Have had mine for a 2 weeks and it is amazing. A test shot below with it wide open I shot yesterday.


    Wide open! by BigHausen, on Flickr
    David
    Auckland, NZ.

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    Quote Originally Posted by Hausen View Post
    I have recently tried to simplify my kit so decided on M9 + 3 Summicrons 28/50/90 + Xpan for film. Can fit in easily in a Crumpler 6 Million dollar home and is light. Agree with comments above on 50 summicron. Have had mine for a 2 weeks and it is amazing. A test shot below with it wide open I shot yesterday.


    Wide open! by BigHausen, on Flickr
    shhhhhh
    I'm getting there, although I reckon the slim elmarit is okay for 90 (the summicron is a little large) added to which you certainly need the 28 and 75 cron

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    As I alter my lenses, I know I will definitely have two recently noted lenses (Cron 50 and Elmarit 90, both most recent versions), but it is a challenge to figure out which 35 to go with. Cron 35 asph is just too modern and too clinical for me. Perhaps, the previous Cron 35 IV?

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    Quote Originally Posted by ramosa View Post
    As I alter my lenses, I know I will definitely have two recently noted lenses (Cron 50 and Elmarit 90, both most recent versions), but it is a challenge to figure out which 35 to go with. Cron 35 asph is just too modern and too clinical for me. Perhaps, the previous Cron 35 IV?
    From what you write I would recommend to take the 35mm Summarit into consideration.

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    Quote Originally Posted by Hausen View Post
    I have recently tried to simplify my kit so decided on M9 + 3 Summicrons 28/50/90 + Xpan for film. Can fit in easily in a Crumpler 6 Million dollar home and is light. Agree with comments above on 50 summicron. Have had mine for a 2 weeks and it is amazing. A test shot below with it wide open I shot yesterday.


    Wide open! by BigHausen, on Flickr
    I don't know what it is with the 50cron (I had the last version, now sold) and M9 (Also gone), I never lusted for the faster 50lux or Noct. A wonderful lens in every way! If I ever have to go with a M again and one lens, it would be the 50cron.
    I also had the 35lux, hated it to be honest! (That might be just me)


    Love the shot btw!

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    speed wins for me.

    that doesn't mean you have to compromise on size, though. one of the smallest, lightest lenses i own is the 35/1.4 pre-asph. a near perfect lens, imo, (even with the occasional flying saucer flare. the only reason i don't shoot it much is the stupid 1m near focus that drives me mad.

    still, one of my favourite combos to shoot on the R-D1 was the 35 Lux pre-asph, gradually opening up as the light failed until nothing but the Nocti f/1 would do.

    i do have multiple lens in two focal lengths, however: 35mm and 50mm. i find the rendering different on each, and they all have their strengths and weaknesses... whilst i love using the 8 element pre-asph Cron on sunny days, if i was travelling with only one lens it would be the 35 Lux -- v.1 Asph as i have never been able to find my holy grail Aspherical (rendering like the pre-asph but able to focus at .7m)... like i said, speed wins for me (but i like to shoot in the dark).

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Anyone use the Zeiss 50/2 Planar ... I'm not adverse to going Zeiss for a 50mm. Focus shift issues? Other?

    -Marc
    What Roger said, plus no focus shift at all. Image quality wide open is superb.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    still getting to know the M9, have a lot of exposures under the bridge with the GXR-M now.

    i mostly prefer the smaller lenses .. f/2.5 is fast enough for most things, even f/4 is quite reasonable a lot of the time ... and i like the rendering qualities of the CV Skopars as much as some of the Leica and Zeiss lenses too.

    my kit is now expanded with a new CV Nokton 50/1.5 and, my, what a nice lens it is.

    so ... currently i have 21/4, 28/2, 28/3.5, 35/2.5, 40/1.4, 40/2, 50/2.5, 50/1.5, 90/4 and 135/4.5 lenses to work with on the M9 and M4-2 (and GXR-M). each has its individual character, size and weight. pick almost any combination of one, two or three and that's my kit.

    ten lenses, three bodies, about three lenses per body ... yeah that's about right. or too much. ;-)

    G

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    My slowest lens is f/2.8. My fastest is f/1.2. For any particular shoot I pick between 1 and 3 lenses depending on what I'm going to photograph, how much walking I will need to do, and what the prevailing light conditions are likely to be.

    One of my all-time-favourite lenses is a Jupiter 3 50/1.5 sonnar. Any of the old canon/nikon/jupiter 50mm sonnars are very small, very light, and give you plenty of speed. Brian is 100% correct to mention the 50/1.5 sonnars in this thread - they are the exception in that there is no speed Vs weight compromise in this old lens design.

    I agree that other great compromises are the legacy 35mm and 40mm f/2 summicrons, and the current 35mm and 50mm summarit f/2.5's.
    However, I personally would never have a standard 35/40/50m slower than f/2 because I use f/2 so much in indoor shooting. Everybody draws the line somewhere, and for me it is faster than the current summarits.

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    Ah, choices . . . . .

    Leica: 24/3.8, 35/2, 35/1.4, 50/1.4, 75/2, 90/2.8

    Zeiss: 50/1.5

    Voightlander: 28/1.9, 40/1.4, 50/1.5

    On Cameras today: M9 - 50/1.4 Lux, MP - 35 Cron with HP5, M6TTL (.85 VF) - 75 Cron with Kodak Porta 160

    On a walkabout this past Saturday afternoon I had the M9 and used the 24/3.8, 50/1.4, and 90/2.8. (Also had a Mamiya 7 II - 80/4 and shot a roll of 220 film)


    Yes, some day will have a slim kit, ya, some day soon, ya soon . . . . .

  32. #32
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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    Quote Originally Posted by seakayaker View Post
    Ah, choices . . . . .
    Leica: 24/3.8, 35/2, 35/1.4, 50/1.4, 75/2, 90/2.8
    Zeiss: 50/1.5
    Voightlander: 28/1.9, 40/1.4, 50/1.5

    On Cameras today: M9 - 50/1.4 Lux, MP - 35 Cron with HP5, M6TTL (.85 VF) - 75 Cron with Kodak Porta 160

    On a walkabout this past Saturday afternoon I had the M9 and used the 24/3.8, 50/1.4, and 90/2.8. (Also had a Mamiya 7 II - 80/4 and shot a roll of 220 film)

    Yes, some day will have a slim kit, ya, some day soon, ya soon . . . . .
    LOL! It's at least an aspiration to be proud of. ;-)

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    My M9 has a 1950 Jupiter-3 on it right now, and is probably the first camera that it ever worked correctly on.

    1950 KMZ J-3: first infocus images from a very early Jupiter.

    But totally worth it!

    Typically, J-3's need to be "shimmed" to focus optimally on a Leica. This particular example had a focal length that was off as well.

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    Over the past year, I have thought a lot about this topic. I have found that I really don't need faster than 2.0. In fact, for this reason, I recently committed the "Leica sin" of selling my Lux 50 asph. I first had a Cron 50, sold it to get the Lux 50, and then sold it to get a Cron 50. (No joke.) Here's what happened: When I looked back at the images I had with the Lux 50 from the last year, I found that I rarely used f/1.4 and hadn't gotten any captures that I couldn't have gotten with the Cron. So the Cron 50 does everything I need at that focal length and is significantly smaller and significantly less expensive than the Lux 50. So now I have the Cron 50--along with an Elmarit 28 asph, Cron 35 asph, and Elmarit-M 90--for use on my M8. When I upgrade to an M10 (whenever it surfaces), I will sell the Elmarit 28 and have a very good and quite portable "trinity" of 35-50-90. Of course, all such matters depend on what you shoot, how you shoot, and what rendering you like.

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    don't forget the imminent cron 50 ASPH...
    David Young
    My journey into Leica: LeicaLux.com

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    Quote Originally Posted by ramosa View Post
    Over the past year, I have thought a lot about this topic. I have found that I really don't need faster than 2.0...
    Nothing wrong with that. You know what and how you shoot and realized that the Cron was a better solution. A darn good lens, that.

    There have been rumors of an ASPH version floating around for a while now. I think it's inevitable. Granted, the performance increase will likely be minimal (not that going ASPH is a waste, just that the Cron is that good!) - mostly in the corners and edges. They might even add FLE. Count on it costing a lot more though... Witness the jump in price from ASPH to FLE with the 35 Lux. Holy moly!

    So I'd hold onto that Cron for dear life.

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    Re: Lens choices: portability vs speed

    Yes. I know there will be a Cron 50 asph soon, but I actually prefer the last few Mandler lenses (e.g., Cron 50, Elmarit-M 90) to the Karbe-designed asph lenses. I like the rendering more ... and, thus, was happy find the current Cron 50 before the change. My new 35 is the Cron asph, though I had pondered the V4, too.

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