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View Poll Results: Which one would you buy if it becomes true?

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  • Mirrorless Leica

    19 36.54%
  • M10 (whatever this will be exactly)

    32 61.54%
  • digital b&w Leica M

    17 32.69%
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Thread: Which new Leica product would you buy?

  1. #1
    Super Duper
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    Which new Leica product would you buy?

    Since May 10 is coming and there are speculation about what it could eventually be (mirrorless, or M10, or a b&W Leica) - which product would you probably buy if it becomes true?

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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    Mirrorless B&W, even if it comes in M mount.

  3. #3
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    ok, Leica M also doesnt have a mirror. With mirrorless I meant more something like m4/3 or Nex or Pentax K01.

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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    I took it that way, Tom.

    Mirrorless here = Electronic live view (lest some say the RF OVF has "live view" )

  5. #5
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    You forgot "None of the above" in your poll.

    Won't be getting a M10 (or MX?) soon because it won't be here to the end of the year ... then not available until months after that.

    Won't get the new electronic wonder that also takes R lenses because I don't have any R lenses, and I'll wait a year to see how the electronics work out.

    Won't get the B&W camera IF it doesn't have an LCD as rumored

    Finally got a brand new 50/1.4 ASPH without paying 5K for a used one. Remaining cash stashed as a trust fund for the S24mm and next FF M body with a real rangefinder. Leica will get my $, but they'll have to wait for it

    -Marc
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    B&W only camera doesn't interest me if it'll cost as muchas a color M and even less if it doesn't have ANY "convenience" features. Mirrorless or the R solution could be interesting and even more so if it was FF or 1.3x crop factor like the M8 was. M10 is a given in my mind but I think I will hold out for the M10-P this time around.
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    My Digital Monochrome camera is getting fairly old...

    I would like to see a Monochrome Digital offered in the Leica line-up.

  8. #8
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    Every now and then the fever breaks and one of us comes to and says: I just took a wrong turn somewhere, that's all. I'd like to go home now, please. And off they go.

    -Art Dudley, Stereophile magazine, February 2012
    New M-camera: Barring a new emphasis on "value" pricing, I think this is where I get off. Loved the M8, enjoyed the M9 (but never felt totally comfortable paying those kinds of prices). No particular interest in a monochrome-only system.

    New as-yet-unnamed system: Depends on What and How Much.

  9. #9
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    I was all set to vote for the R10.......
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    A FF M with LV and focus peaking.

  11. #11
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    I was all set to vote for the R10.......
    Since I do not know whatreally comes - maybe it is an R10.
    My offered choices are pure speculation and Leica could present something totally different eventually. Who knows.

  12. #12
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    If the M10 has the means to check critical focus and framing pre-capture I'll probably bite. The mirrorless (not M) offering would probably need to be full frame to interest me but never say never. My hope is that they'll announce both at the same time so that I'll know my options.

    I'm still keeping an eye on the X-Pro1 but have been disappointed in what I've seen so far from the 18mm lens. Wides are vital for my work, I'll be very interested so see how M fit wide lenses perform on the Fuji.

  13. #13
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    You forgot "None of the above" in your poll.
    He also forgot "All of the above" and "Two of the above" which is more to the point in my case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    I'm still blow away by the notion of no LCD. That rumor I just clearly can't get my mind around.
    I agree with Marc and Terry though. I wouldn't be interested in a B&W camera without an LCD. I can shoot film if I don't want feedback.

    Just this guy you know

  14. #14
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    I'm still blow away by the notion of no LCD. That rumor I just clearly can't get my mind around.

  15. #15
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    Hard to say what I'd buy before seeing what it does and how well it works for me. However I'm with Gary, my first choice would be R10.

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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    Well, whatever has reasonably available lenses with a closed-loop focus assist system might be considered, other than that I would need to study the specs and handle one before making a commitment comment.
    So where is the none of the above choice?
    -bob

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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    I think the monochrome liveview cam is going to be a rebadged Lumix G5 with the regular Lumix G5 offered as a color version.

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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    or Maybe they will have the LCD/LED screen as an option, you know charge more if you really want one.

  19. #19
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    I think a b/w only camera would allready be brave, a b/w camera without an LCD would be very brave.
    Last edited by Paratom; 21st March 2012 at 13:27.

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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    Jono, since you seem to have been able to quote Terry before she made her statement, I nominate you as our seer to tell us what Leica is set to release!

    From my perspective, I will probably sit this one out. I love the M9, and this year I sold a huge proportion of everything else I had for the S2, and between the two, I cannot really think how they are holding me back in my photography in any way. But you never know, they seem to have convinced me to part with a lot of my money in the past...
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  21. #21
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    I think a b/w only camera would allready be brave, a b/w camera without an LCD would be very brave.
    B&W, M-mount, no LCD but an EVF would be interesting. I mostly use the EVF if I want to review photos on my GH1, so the LCD sees little use.

  22. #22
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    Jono, since you seem to have been able to quote Terry before she made her statement, I nominate you as our seer to tell us what Leica is set to release!

    From my perspective, I will probably sit this one out. I love the M9, and this year I sold a huge proportion of everything else I had for the S2, and between the two, I cannot really think how they are holding me back in my photography in any way. But you never know, they seem to have convinced me to part with a lot of my money in the past...
    +1.

    However, I've hedged my bet. I usually work with 2 M9s, so in anticipation of the M10/MX I sold both of my black M9s and secured a Chrome M9P for a beautifully classic durable finish and scratch resistant LCD ... which I will keep long term, and then add the M10/MX IF Leica successfully retains the Image Qualities with a CMOS sensor ... which I'll remain skeptical of until I see it.

    -Marc

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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    Only interested in M10. Will buy it unless it is crazy with lots of DSLR features (e.g., video), but I don't expect that.

  24. #24
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    ...
    From my perspective, I will probably sit this one out. I love the M9, and this year I sold a huge proportion of everything else I had for the S2, and between the two, I cannot really think how they are holding me back in my photography in any way. But you never know, they seem to have convinced me to part with a lot of my money in the past...
    I am interested in all of those rumours but I feel a lot like Stuart, that the S2 and also M9 both dont limit me at all at the moment.
    Everything better will be a bonus.

  25. #25
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    Jono, since you seem to have been able to quote Terry before she made her statement, I nominate you as our seer to tell us what Leica is set to release!
    the dangers of allowing edits ...I saw his post before I posted. Sneaky devil must have like my words better than his.....








    .
    Last edited by Terry; 23rd March 2012 at 11:18.
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    after last night's shooting experience in a very dark bar, with f/1 and 2500 not being fast enough, i so vote for a black and white camera with significantly improved high ISO (as well as it simply being available!). improved tonality capture and detail ay high ISO are also a must.

    this would also allow me to stop shooting DNG and b/w JPEG (maybe speed up response?) because i can't properly judge focus or lighting with colour and i like to show people b/w images on my screen when i share them since i know that is what they will ultimately become...

    then again, all this would be moot if there was no LCD -- which would be just fine with me! especially if it made the camera smaller and thinner, like an M2/M3

    i want it and i want it NOW!

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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    I voted for a digital b&w M to complement my M9

    though I admit that b&w film does complement it very nicely at present.

    also, it would be a good camera for wide symmetrical lenses
    Last edited by gero; 22nd March 2012 at 10:32.

  28. #28
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    I don't like the idea of no LCD. How do you change the setting that are done with the current LCD?

    The idea of a B&W sensor fall flat too. The increase in resolution is marginal. The ISO performance would be nice, but I would just miss raw conversion to B&W with the color channel mixer. And then if I wanted to take color images, it would be rather hard.

    I am not sure what I would want from Leica as I would really need to see the camera in question--if it is anything like the X1, it will not be of any interest to me.

  29. #29
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    Agreed. Technology didn't stop from 2 years ago. We don't need to sacrifice color to get better ISO/resolution. We don't need to get rid of LCD so people will stop complain about how sucky it is. Just give us the best tech available at the same cost, or slightly more, and it'll probably be enough.

  30. #30
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    The difference in dynamic range for a B&W sensor could be huge. Replace the bayer filter with a neutral-density setup, and . . . 30 bits per pixel of dynamic range perhaps?

    Or maybe use pairs of pixels instead of triplets and get 20 or 24 bits per pixel, and with larger photosites you've got less noise.

    So instead of a 24MP color sensor with 72 million elements (groups of three), you've got maybe an 24MP black and white sensor with 48 million elements (groups of two) - each element being 1.5x the size: you're getting twice the dynamic range as you were from the color sensor, and what, 33% less noise? all at the same time.

    You could make the latter by taking an existing (cheap by today's standards!) 16MP sensor and replacing the Bayer filter with a paired-off ND one and then just combining the outputs differently.

  31. #31
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    How does DR change just because you eliminate the Bayer filters? None of my monochrome sensor cameras have a greater DR than a Bayer camera.

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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    I'm not really enthused about any of the speculated options being bandied about for May 10th. A mirrorless camera would be attractive if it features a line of dedicated auto-focus lenses along with a means to adapt R and M mount lenses. Even still, I don't need one, so I doubt I'd bite.

    My full-hearted vote goes to a full-frame R10. This is the one camera I've wanted from Leica for a long time. A new range of autofocus lenses for this camera would spell real trouble for my bank account. My sad-hearted feeling though is that this will never happen.

  33. #33
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    I was a bit off in the details, but the gist is: with a Bayer filter, you're using four sensor elements to come up with (for exmaple) 24 bits of information: 8 bits of luminance (intensity), and 16 bits of color (hue and saturation, or G-B and G-R, for example). Because dynamic range is determined by the luminance range, you've got 8 bits (256 levels) of dynamic range). Color information is relatively expensive, is another way of looking at it.

    A B&W sensor could use those same four elements to come up with 24 bits of information that is purely luminance, so 24 bits of dynamic range (16 million levels). I *think*. I'm not 100% sure - for sure, you could get a significant increase in dynamic range, I'm just thinking through how to do it*.

    Understanding Digital Camera Sensors

    (* using geeky terminology, using ND filters instead of color filters would let you produce something more like a 10-bit floating-point output (8 mantissa and 2 exponent) rather than a real 24-bit integer output. More research is needed :-) ).

  34. #34
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    Something that works better for me than the M9 and GXR-M do now. And by a good margin. don't know what they're planning to release, but I'm pretty happy with what I have already.

    Nothing B&W only. Waste of money and time far as I'm concerned.

    G

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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor Sherman View Post
    I was a bit off in the details, but the gist is: with a Bayer filter, you're using four sensor elements to come up with (for exmaple) 24 bits of information: 8 bits of luminance (intensity), and 16 bits of color (hue and saturation, or G-B and G-R, for example). Because dynamic range is determined by the luminance range, you've got 8 bits (256 levels) of dynamic range). Color information is relatively expensive, is another way of looking at it.
    You are really describing the de-Bayering process which is done after the image is captured. The RAW image is still limited by what each pixel can capture in terms of signal and noise. Removing the Bayer filter does not change that.

  36. #36
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    You are really describing the de-Bayering process which is done after the image is captured. The RAW image is still limited by what each pixel can capture in terms of signal and noise. Removing the Bayer filter does not change that.
    Oh! I think it does, and I think you're missing something on both of your points:

    1. although the de-Bayering is done after the image is captured . . . it doesn't have to be done for the black and white image.

    2. at the very least you're removing a filter which is reducing the light reaching the sensor - I've seen different opinions on how much light a Bayer filter restricts, but apparently it's at least 2 stops.

    If so, you have a benefit of 2 stops, and the reduction of whatever penalty demoisaicing imposes (and there is certainly some penalty).

    What new penalties may be imposed remains to be seen (or not, depending on whether Leica have muddled up May 10th with April 1st!).


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  37. #37
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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    I was referring to DR not sensitivity, which is greater in a monochrome sensor because the filters are not there.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Oh! I think it does, and I think you're missing something on both of your points:

    1. although the de-Bayering is done after the image is captured . . . it doesn't have to be done for the black and white image.

    2. at the very least you're removing a filter which is reducing the light reaching the sensor - I've seen different opinions on how much light a Bayer filter restricts, but apparently it's at least 2 stops.

    If so, you have a benefit of 2 stops, and the reduction of whatever penalty demoisaicing imposes (and there is certainly some penalty).

    What new penalties may be imposed remains to be seen (or not, depending on whether Leica have muddled up May 10th with April 1st!).


    all the best

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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I was referring to DR not sensitivity, which is greater in a monochrome sensor because the filters are not there.
    Essentially I'm talking about something that would replace de-mosaicing with a new process, which would combine information from adjacent sensor elements to create pixels with higher dynamic range (versus creating
    color pixels from what are essentially monochrome ones).

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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor Sherman View Post
    Essentially I'm talking about something that would replace de-mosaicing with a new process, which would combine information from adjacent sensor elements to create pixels with higher dynamic range (versus creating
    color pixels from what are essentially monochrome ones).
    That is called pixel binning which combines adjacent pixels to improve sensitivity at the expense of resolution. None of the camera I have used, both monochrome and color, have any real change to DR when binned in any practical sense.
    Last edited by Shashin; 23rd March 2012 at 14:01.

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    Re: Which new Leica product would you buy?

    I'd be happy with a M9 with higher magnification OVF, brighter RF patch, lighter, max ISO of 12800 with good noise control on par with the X100, better LCD, and an additional control point to change ISO w/o having to use both hands.

    That's not asking for too much right?
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