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Thread: Why the leica Hate?

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The question is if Leica is relevant today. To me it i really isn't- not as far as photography is concerned.
    I'm sorry, but relevant to what? If a camera works for the type of photography you do then it is relevant, whether it be an 8X10 palladium or a Nex 7,8,9,10.....(and so on ad naseum). Considering Leica's recent sales the camera seems quite relevant to many and their methods of working (myself included). Maybe you need to stick to something instead of always after the latest greatest and make a body of work with it. That is relevance to photography.
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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    I don't own a digital M but I own two M6s, one of which my father gave me year before he died. To me, that camera will always be relevant, regardless of what the haters, cranks, fondlers, and the jealous types say.
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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Sorry, I hit reply while reaching for my cell phone. I use the M6 all of time because it suits my style of shooting, and it allows me to do what I do. If another camera suited my style, I would use that one too.

    And, if I had the jack available, I wouldn't hesitate to buy the M9.

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The fame and fortune (or rather the price tag) of the brand works against it (at times) being used as a tool that ought to be.

    I have only seen one M9 sold here that really looked brassed. I did congratulate that seller.
    Maybe the coating of the Leica is much better

    Even though I seldomly bring the M9 when I go MTB I have brought Leica stuff when hiking on mountains, when going on tent vacation, on the beach, when riding the motorcycle, in heavy snow. At one point I decided to insure all my photogear because I told myself that it doesnt make sense to buy expensive gear and then leave it at home to keep it in good condition.
    However in 5 years I only had one "crash" where I had to ask the insurance for refund. So overall I should maybe cancel the insurance.

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Reason well used Leica M9's aren't seen for sale is because the owners are out USING them! Not selling them to acquire a Nex 7 or whatever. I have two M9's and if the time comes I will actually sell the least used of the two.

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by charlesphoto View Post
    Reason well used Leica M9's aren't seen for sale is because the owners are out USING them! Not selling them to acquire a Nex 7 or whatever.
    I did not know that at all.

    All I observed was, barring one well brassed up black M9, almost every other one for sale was "mint".

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Ive seen a LOT of Mint ones also , I want to see a M8 or M9 that looks like this:

    Chasing Light Blog Archive Some Well-Worn Leicas

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    An M9 and a Noctilux is a great addition for any pool party.





    My friend's M9 has been through a lot, pool party was for relaxation.



    Got the shot, camera came out soaking wet. Toweled it off.

    Just to add- some users might buy an M8, sell it Mint, get an M9, sell it mint, get an M10... or whatever to have the newest camera without having used what they have. I ran into someone with an M3 that never used it to keep it mint. "Too nice to use" he said, when he saw my M3. I've used some of my cameras -a lot- for 40 years, and they still look new. I use a camera case, and try to take care of them. With digital, hard to justify "not using them" as things change so quickly. I'd feel worse denting up a Black Nikon SP than putting a dent in the M9.

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Well, frankly I think that one aspect of any high priced premium product (Leica, Porsche, B&O, jewelry, you name it...) is showing that one can afford such a thing. And that can cause attitude problems in other people who can or cannot afford that.

    Having said that, Leicas seem to be great cameras in many ways. Great enough to justify such prices? That's up to each individual to decide.

    Disclaimer: I don't own a Leica, I haven't touched a Leica, I couldn't afford one. Don't know if I would buy one if I could.

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Cost is a funny topic... To me, I'm kinda renting it. My true cost is the amount I paid minus the amount I will sell it for (adjust for inflation and less interests earned, if you must). And... if you can sell it for more than you paid for, then it cost more to not buy it! I haven't even account for the photos and enjoyment I get out of it, yet.
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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by emr View Post
    Well, frankly I think that one aspect of any high priced premium product (Leica, Porsche, B&O, jewelry, you name it...) is showing that one can afford such a thing. And that can cause attitude problems in other people who can or cannot afford that.
    I USED to think that before I bought my first M9 but I like that it is discreet, I like that many people have no idea what it is, what it costs, and that they think I'm shooting an old film camera. My A77 gets more attention as it's larger and looks "more professional" with the battery grip and 70-200 attached.

    I think discretion is the another huge reason that Leica users like the M. I suspect that the exclusivity and brand status is a factor for some but I don't think it's a factor for most. I think it's the same way for buyers or other expensive brands. People buy what they like and what they can afford within their means.
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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by emr View Post
    Well, frankly I think that one aspect of any high priced premium product (Leica, Porsche, B&O, jewelry, you name it...) is showing that one can afford such a thing. And that can cause attitude problems in other people who can or cannot afford that.

    Having said that, Leicas seem to be great cameras in many ways. Great enough to justify such prices? That's up to each individual to decide.

    Disclaimer: I don't own a Leica, I haven't touched a Leica, I couldn't afford one. Don't know if I would buy one if I could.
    Hmm, well, having owned a Porsche I've had the notice that went with it (not sure that I liked it much). But I've had Leica's for years, and I can count the number of times strangers comment on it on the fingers of one hand . . . . and my friends all think I'm completely mad to spend so much on a camera. Small, brassy cornered metal box as status symbol . . . I don't think so!

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Jono, it's even worse when you buy a USED brassy metal box like me. I'm embarassed to tell my relatives how much I paid for it. This is where I hope the "discreet" factor comes in so they won't even notice that I got a different camera.
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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by dude163 View Post
    Ive seen a LOT of Mint ones also , I want to see a M8 or M9 that looks like this:

    Chasing Light Blog Archive Some Well-Worn Leicas
    Umm, these are cameras used by pros for 25 plus years. I know we are living in the internet attention deficit disorder age but maybe you want to give the pros (who generally when they find something that works for them hang onto it) more than three years to wear down their M9's?

    Maybe those without Leica M's might want to actually step back and think before posting....

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    I own a M8 and its starting to brass after 1 year of use , granted I carry it almost everyday and fondle it every other one.

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I did not know that at all.

    All I observed was, barring one well brassed up black M9, almost every other one for sale was "mint".
    Perhaps because the black finish on the M9 is a tough powder coating and doesn't brass like an MP body.

    This is what caught a few people out when the M9 was first released. They wanted to look like rough tough photographers and got the sandpaper out to be first with a brassed camera, only to find they looked a little bit stupid when even harder used professional examples were still looking brand new.

    Steve

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by 250swb View Post
    Perhaps because the black finish on the M9 is a tough powder coating and doesn't brass like an MP body.
    Hi Steve
    mine's certainly brassing okay - without the application of anything more dramatic than my scratchy old hands!
    The silver chrome M9p is a different matter (it's just getting dirty!).

    all the best

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The fame and fortune (or rather the price tag) of the brand works against it (at times) being used as a tool that ought to be.

    I have only seen one M9 sold here that really looked brassed. I did congratulate that seller.
    Congratulate that seller for what? Not taking care of his tools?

    As my Dad taught me ... take care of your working tools and they will take care of you ... and never loan them to anyone because they won't.

    Jewelry posers pale in comparison to the those who artificially add wear to a camera to assume the mantle of "experience".

    Marc
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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Jewelry posers pale in comparison to the those who artificially add wear to a camera to assume the mantle of "experience".

    Marc
    Marc, There is no reason for him to brass his camera on purpose to pose. It was not done deliberately. Natural use and lots of it. It was not abused in that it was perfectly working and even the LCD was immaculate.

    On the other saying, thanks for posting. Never heard that (especially the latter part) before and is definitely something that I could use.

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Marc, There is no reason for him to brass his camera on purpose to pose. It was not done deliberately. Natural use and lots of it. It was not abused in that it was perfectly working and even the LCD was immaculate.

    On the other saying, thanks for posting. Never heard that (especially the latter part) before and is definitely something that I could use.
    I didn't specifically mean that owner ... just responding to the suggestion of taking sand paper to any camera to look "experienced" as mentioned.

    In Karate, a well worn Black Belt is a sign of having tied the belt over many years ... those that tried to simulate that experience were thrown into Kumite with fighters well above their skill level ... where their posing yielded a just reward

    It'd be cool if we could ship sandpaper camera posers over to a war zone to add a real patina to their camera ... which they could then be proud of ... if they ever make it out alive.

    -Marc

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    How much brassing a camera shows has little to do with how much use it's been through. My cameras are all well used but show very little wear. Even my beloved little Rollei 35S, which has been around the world with me countless times over the past thirty years, has nary a mark on it. That's because I take care of my cameras' finish.

    Vivek doesn't think Leicas are relevant. Well, to him they may not be ... that's his decision and his opinion. The M9 and M4-2 are both quite relevant for my photography ... that's my decision and opinion. Does it really matter that I completely disagree with Vivek? Of course not.
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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    How much brassing a camera shows has little to do with how much use it's been through. My cameras are all well used but show very little wear. Even my beloved little Rollei 35S, which has been around the world with me countless times over the past thirty years, has nary a mark on it. That's because I take care of my cameras' finish.
    I quite agree Godfrey - I like to hold my M9 in my hand when I'm out shooting, and that does tend to make for rubbed corners (I have one nasty mark where I fell over on some scree) - when I don't carry it in my hand, it's in a shoulder bag, and it isn't banging against anything else in the bag.

    I don't mind the brassy corners, but I always do everything I can reasonably to do avoid them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post

    Vivek doesn't think Leicas are relevant. Well, to him they may not be ... that's his decision and his opinion. The M9 and M4-2 are both quite relevant for my photography ... that's my decision and opinion. Does it really matter that I completely disagree with Vivek? Of course not.
    Of course not - I was going to ask Vivek to define 'relevant to photography', but having already asked him to define 'waste of money' I didn't think I'd bother

    So, it seems, for once, you and I completely agree . . . does it matter? Of course not.

    all the best

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    To hell with Leica hate, lets have Leica love! I think madonna sums it up best:

    Leica Virgin

    Somehow I made it through


    Didn't know how lost I was


    Until I found you

    



    I was beat, incomplete


    I'd been had, I was sad and blue


    But you made me feel


    Yeah, you made me feel


    Shiny and new

    Leica virgin


    Touched for the very first time


    Leica virgin


    When your shutter beats
    Next to mine





    Gonna give you all my love, boy


    My fear is fading fast


    Been saving it all for you


    'Cause only love can last





    You're so fine and you're mine


    Make me strong, yeah you make me bold


    Oh your love thawed out


    Yeah, your love thawed out


    What was scared and cold

    Oooh, oooh, oooh





    Leica virgin


    Touched for the very first time


    Leica virgin


    When your shutter beats
    Next to mine





    You're so fine and you're mine


    I'll be yours 'till the end of time


    'Cause you made me feel


    Yeah, you made me feel


    I've nothing to hide

    Leica virgin


    Touched for the very first time


    Leica virgin


    When your heart beats
    Next to mine





    Leica virgin, ooh, ooh


    Leica virgin


    Feels so good inside


    When you hold me, and your heart beats, and you love me




    Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh


    Ooh, baby
    

Can't you hear my heart beat


    For the very first time?


    Eat your heart out Paul Simon.

    (I apologize in advance if this song starts repeating in your head over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.)
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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I quite agree Godfrey - I like to hold my M9 in my hand when I'm out shooting, and that does tend to make for rubbed corners (I have one nasty mark where I fell over on some scree) - when I don't carry it in my hand, it's in a shoulder bag, and it isn't banging against anything else in the bag.

    I don't mind the brassy corners, but I always do everything I can reasonably to do avoid them.


    Of course not - I was going to ask Vivek to define 'relevant to photography', but having already asked him to define 'waste of money' I didn't think I'd bother

    So, it seems, for once, you and I completely agree . . . does it matter? Of course not.

    all the best
    You know this kind of discussions are complicated.

    Jono, I probably own (and might even use) more Leica gear than you.

    Think about this- is Leica all about digital Ms or even Ms?

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Not directed to anyone, just a thought floated in my head...

    Please, hate something for what it has, and not what it lacks. At least that way your hate will be more substantiated. Let me explain... if you hate it for what it lacks, then you can simply avoid it, ignore it, and not be bothered by it, so why hate it? It actually makes it sound like you secretly want to love it, if it didn't have those faults. On the other hand, if you hate something for what it has, then it's obviously something you can't change so it makes better sense for you to hate it. But then again, why not just move on and forget about it?

    With every new camera released, I hear people say that "Leica's in trouble", this gadget has better AF, ISO, DR, Liveview... etc. I want to congratulate those people for they have found a camera that better fit their needs, because I had no illusions about getting them from the M9. I, for one, moved from the Sony NEX to the M9 and I'm amazed by how none of that matters to me. Perhaps it's the delayed gratification effect, but I find myself loving the surprises I get when I see the picture rendered beautifully for the first time in Lightroom. Now I think that live-view is like the dirty spoiler that ruins a movie before you get to experience it.

    Please take what I say with a grain of salt... as I'm still in honeymoon with my M9
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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    I have heard film fanatics complaining about "instant gratification" of digital.

    This is the first time I come across "delayed gratification".

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    hehe... a virtual photography generation gap Me, having never gone through the film era, live-view was all I've known. I must admit that it was a major concern for me switching to M9, but I easily adjusted. It's great for an amateur like me, because sometimes it can be "delayed disappointments" as well, but I'd probably feel different if I was a Pro using it in a paid-job.

    But, hey, I googled "delayed gratification", guess what I found: Delayed Gratification, Intelligence Linked
    I didn't say it!
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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    I always had great respect for many of the film fanatics.

    BTW, David, you should really try film on an M.

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Actually,
    What seems clear to me is that for probably complicated reasons, Leica brand gear seams to pull out the passions of folks in all parts of the spectrum.
    Thinking back to our moderating challenges here on this forum, it seems that the majority of them have been in some way related to Leica gear.
    From the buy and sell price police to the inevitable "my gear is brassier than your gear" scrums, Leica has been right up there heading the charts.
    When the doctor is in I will let you know and then we can take turns on the couch.
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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Well, you'd be neurotic, too if your camera whispered "You're just not worthy." every time you pressed the shutter button.

    --Matt
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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    BTW, David, you should really try film on an M.
    Haha... I'm not sure I have enough intelligence for THAT much delay :P

    It's definitely on the back of my mind though, kind of a "rediscover your roots" type of thing. It can play mistress to the M9 when I get that itch
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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    You know this kind of discussions are complicated.

    Jono, I probably own (and might even use) more Leica gear than you.

    Think about this- is Leica all about digital Ms or even Ms?
    Hi Vivek
    Of course it isn't - and I daresay you do own and use more Leica kit than me.

    But I don't think that makes the M9 irrelevant. . . and for me and Godfrey at least it isn't a waste of money.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Actually,
    What seems clear to me is that for probably complicated reasons, Leica brand gear seams to pull out the passions of folks in all parts of the spectrum.
    Fujifilm seems to bring out more forum passion per dollar though.

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Aye, that be true. I am a Leica fan, having owned and photographed with a M8.2 for more than a year but I sincerely hope Fuji kicks Leica's *** and bring them back down to earth.

    Someone in another forum posted a link to a short-ish article which I found interesting, I particularly liked this part (edited by me for relevance):

    "Q: So why not Leica?

    A: The M9 is too expensive (Editor's note: the 5 500 body only). ... The context is very hard for traders, between the popularization of the photo - and the dumbing down - and declining budgets for the press, money is the sinews of war. For me, the Leica M9 is a jewel for the wealthy. "

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    "Irrelevant" is actually a pretty good description of how I feel about paying $4000 for a 50mm lens, and $2000 premiums for a mostly cosmetic change to the M9 camera body (M9P). I think Leica correctly realized that technical excellence was quickly becoming a commodity, and that their best hope for continued success was to emphasize the emotional appeal/user experience of their products--luxury branding, essentially.

    I have nothing against attention to detail that makes things more enjoyable to use, though Apple has spoilt me by doing it at competitive prices.

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4season View Post
    "Irrelevant" is actually a pretty good description of how I feel about paying $4000 for a 50mm lens, and $2000 premiums for a mostly cosmetic change to the M9 camera body (M9P). I think Leica correctly realized that technical excellence was quickly becoming a commodity, and that their best hope for continued success was to emphasize the emotional appeal/user experience of their products--luxury branding, essentially ...
    THIS is a pretty decent summation of "Irrelevant" on a personal level IMO.

    Maybe we tend to forget that many very serious photographers just can't pony up those prices. I vividly recall balking at the price of a Nikon Pro film body not all that long ago.

    Those with the means to buy as they wish, can indulge their passion in any way they may want ... however, that doesn't mean they are any less serious about their photography.

    I'm not sure the technical excellence of Leica lenses are becoming a commodity. IMO, they started as an optics company, and remain the premiere optics company that happens to make cameras.

    Many M users long for the days when one could buy a body and keep it most of their life. In a manner of speaking, I viewed the M9P Chrome in that fashion. The M9 reached the level of image quality that suffices for my use of a rangefinder, so I sold both my M9 black paint bodies and hedged my longevity bet with chrome rather than paint, and a tougher LCD. I'm sure the M10 will be enticing, and I'm also sure I'll be tempted ... yet gone are the days when I'd immediately order two of the latest Ms for my work ... I will keep my current M9P, and add one M10 ... maybe.

    -Marc
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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    I'm not sure the technical excellence of Leica lenses are becoming a commodity. IMO, they started as an optics company, and remain the premiere optics company that happens to make cameras.


    -Marc
    They did not start out as an optics company.

    Leica Camera AG - History

    While they may be technically excellent (many are), Leica lenses are just stocks, just like Tulip bulbs were when stock market started.

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Leica lenses are just stocks, just like Tulip bulbs were when stock market started.
    Excellent Vivek, and I do agree - However, I'd take issue at the JUST - Actually in both cases - both tulips and Leica lenses have intrinsic values beyond their stock value.

    Whilst the Tulip bubble burst, the Leica one might too, but it's slightly less likely to as people cannot grow them in their back garden

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    I agree, Jono. I did not spend bit more time to express it better. Not just stocks- I agree.

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post

    While they may be technically excellent (many are), Leica lenses are just stocks, just like Tulip bulbs were when stock market started.
    From my point of view, I agree. Not paper ( like stock/options etc ) but items that can be traded. And make a healthy profit or loss.

    Just like tulips, or real estate. Love tulips and other flowers, real estate, some Leica branded items and gold. Not unlike currency. Intrinsic value ?
    I don't really care. If there are buyers and sellers, I shall take a position.

    Just like tulips. Ever see the prices of a boquet of roses around Valentine's day?

    Love Leica. Just hope prices go up. Best part ;can use it for photography too..my M and Leica lenses.
    Porche..not a big enough market.

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    They did not start out as an optics company.

    Leica Camera AG - History

    While they may be technically excellent (many are), Leica lenses are just stocks, just like Tulip bulbs were when stock market started.
    Wrong History ... not far enough back ...

    1869, Ernst Leitz took over the Optical Institute of Germany, and renamed it the Optical Institute of Ernst Leitz.

    Primarily a producer of Microscopes, Leitz added binoculars, still and cine cameras and lenses, and other specilists optical equipment (like excellent analog projectors and film enlargers including enlarging lenses) ... some of which which they still make. Leica originally was a contraction of Leitz Camera ... and today the lenses, medial optics, spotting scopes and binoculars now also carry that name as opposed to Leitz.

    Marc

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    They did not start out as an optics company.

    Leica Camera AG - History

    While they may be technically excellent (many are), Leica lenses are just stocks, just like Tulip bulbs were when stock market started.
    Oh, I forgot to add that no matter how hard I tried, I never was able to take a photo with a Tulip bulb ... I did use "bulb" on one of my older cameras, and also used "flash bulbs" on another old camera ... if either of those count

    -Marc

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post

    Love Leica. Just hope prices go up. Best part ;can use it for photography too..my M and Leica lenses.
    Rayyan, I love Leica too. My question(and answer to myself) was the relevance. Jono and Godfrey and others have a different point of view.

    I hope Leica lenses keep going up in value, for your sake and everyone else who own them.

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Wrong History ... not far enough back ...

    1869, Ernst Leitz took over the Optical Institute of Germany, and renamed it the Optical Institute of Ernst Leitz.

    Primarily a producer of Microscopes, Leitz added binoculars, still and cine cameras and lenses, and other specilists optical equipment (like excellent analog projectors and film enlargers including enlarging lenses) ... some of which which they still make. Leica originally was a contraction of Leitz Camera ... and today the lenses, medial optics, spotting scopes and binoculars now also carry that name as opposed to Leitz.

    Marc

    I have/use many Leitz lenses. The topic was about Leica and then about the digital M + a cornucopia of everything under the Sun.

    I quoted what the official site says.

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4season View Post
    "Irrelevant" is actually a pretty good description of how I feel about paying $4000 for a 50mm lens, and $2000 premiums for a mostly cosmetic change to the M9 camera body (M9P). I think Leica correctly realized that technical excellence was quickly becoming a commodity, and that their best hope for continued success was to emphasize the emotional appeal/user experience of their products--luxury branding, essentially.

    I have nothing against attention to detail that makes things more enjoyable to use, though Apple has spoilt me by doing it at competitive prices.
    IMO Leica does both - they emphasize the emotional appeal but on the other side they still produce technical/optical excellence.

    I think what we also have to understand is that lower output numbers of cameras and lenses leads to higher prices than mass production in the far east. 1% better optical quality can increase cost much more than 1%.

    But I totally agree that emotional appeal and luxury is also one part of their success. I recently talked to a guy from Leica and he said he was surprized how few people by the Summarit line of lenses, even though these are excellent lenses as well - and buy instead Summiluxes for 2-3 times the price.

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Rayyan, I love Leica too. My question(and answer to myself) was the relevance. Jono and Godfrey and others have a different point of view.

    I hope Leica lenses keep going up in value, for your sake and everyone else who own them.
    Pretty condescending of you to say so.

    Who cares if they increase in value ? (although that's been a nice feature lately ... but only if you sell them.)

    The value is in using them. They aren't bars of gold or Tulip bulbs, they're camera lenses.

    To put a fine point on the relevance issue ... your repetitious opinion is irrelevant to those who find use in Leica products, so why keep beating a ?

    -Marc

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I have/use many Leitz lenses. The topic was about Leica and then about the digital M + a cornucopia of everything under the Sun.

    I quoted what the official site says.
    Point was clearly stated ... they started out as a optical company and IMO they still are an optical company that happens to make cameras.

    But of course you are never wrong ...

    -Marc

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Pretty condescending of you to say so.

    -Marc
    That was a reply to my friend, Rayyan. Wrong characterization. Plain and simple.

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    Re: Why the leica Hate?

    Hey Vivek, would 24k plated one take good snaps?


    Miss the flowers.

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