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Why the leica Hate?

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dude163

Active member
Hi all, just to clarify, none of the negativity will make me sell the camera, its is one of the coolest things Ive ever owned , withthe bonus that it takes pictures and I have learned a lot about photography and post processing using it.


One of my closest friends really doesnt *get* the Leica *deal* as he calls it , but when I first got it we went to a coffee shop and when i came back from the washroom this is what I saw:




HAHAHAHH he says he dislikes Leica , but he didnt put the camera down for 10 minutes, he kept picking it up , focusing, moving the aperture etc made me laugh.


re: internet only : I think thats the key , everyone assumes they are 100% correct or what they own is the ONLY WAY to do something , and they can get so out of control .

Im off to edit some shots :)
 

Brian S

New member
This is with my Leica M8 with the C-Sonnar 50/1.5, set at F4.
I've had the M8 for over two years now, the M9 for about a year. I keep the C-sonnar on the M8, the M9 has a J-3 on it now.



I have an Olympus EP-2, introduced after the M9 came out and much newer than the M8, so not "that old" of a camera. The M8 has less than 1/2 of the latency of the EP2.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Robert, I am one who can buy a couple M9s and a whole set of new primes if I wanted. I won't as I do not see why I should waste my money on them.
Hah! Vivek - please define 'waste of money'
(but I'm pleased to hear you're in such a good financial position - would it stretch to an S2 and a complete set of primes as well? . . . don't answer - just joshing).

I've just gone through the snaps on our recent trip to China - I had an A77 and a Leica with me all the time, and shot about the same number of shots with each - whereas about 85% of the keepers are with the Leica. (I also had a panasonic G1x, but my wife appropriated that and too some good shots).

If you 'get' shooting with a rangefinder I don't think there's anything else quite like it - hard to describe, but with everything you do (focus, change the aperture / shutter speed etc) there seems to be a proportional effect - unlike most other cameras (whether ancient or modern) where the effect of your action varies with the circumstances. . . . . I'm describing it badly, but it's like riding a bicycle as opposed to a motor scooter - or wearing a pair of all stars as opposed to walking boots, using focus by wire instead of direct MF; the camera feels like a colleague rather than a slave!

Robert
As for the Leica Hate - I guess there are two categories of people - the first is those who are jealous (for one reason or another). I think the biggest group is those who know about photography and are scared and/or scornful that anyone would pay the price of a Nikon D3x to get a camera without AF, Program mode or any of the other 'advantages' of the modern camera.

all the best
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
There is another group. Those who are put off by supercilious Leica snobs. The people who respond to any question with "Well, <sigh> there are some who will just never understand." Or "It requires a certain sensitivity to adapt to the process." or the inevitable invocation of HCB and what HE would have thought of your stupid question or.. :loco:

Thanks in large part to the people here (who are NOT like that), I overcame my aversion to the brand and went M9. And after a mere 16 months of struggle, it's starting to get easier! :ROTFL:

Best,

Matt (recovered Leica hater)
 

magosak

Member
There is another group. Those who are put off by supercilious Leica snobs. The people who respond to any question with "Well, <sigh> there are some who will just never understand." Or "It requires a certain sensitivity to adapt to the process." or the inevitable invocation of HCB and what HE would have thought of your stupid question or.. :loco:

Thanks in large part to the people here (who are NOT like that), I overcame my aversion to the brand and went M9. And after a mere 16 months of struggle, it's starting to get easier! :ROTFL:

Best,

Matt (recovered Leica hater)
Matt, I agree that people here are not like that. People can freely talk about Leica without being attacked by Leica fanboys who cannot tolerate even a slightest criticism of Leica cameras.

I recently signed up on another forum and was very discouraged by the behavior of various members on that forum. Those who point out some of the weaknesses of Leica cameras are immediately labeled as idiots and are urged to sell their cameras and move on. I do not feel comfortable participating on the other form anymore but still plan to get a M9 soon.:)
 
The M is terrible value. There's so much you don't get for all the $$$ you pay. No AF, slow FPS, tiny buffer, slow card write speed, parallax issues, no live view, etc... I have several other cameras, mirrorless and DSLRs and most of those are "better" than my M9 in many ways. All that said, the camera I get the most satisfaction from using is the M9 and those wonderful M lenses. I don't have an explanation for it and can't really justify but regardless it is a fact for me. I can understand how this defies reasoning and logic and to those who don't feel this way it makes no sense, so they attack.
 

bensonga

Well-known member
Hey Dude (sorry, I couldn't resist!),

If there is one thing I've learned over the years it's this...use the camera gear that you enjoy and which suits you, regardless of what anyone else thinks about it.

If you are lucky, you'll find the ONE true camera system which is perfect for you. That could be a Leica, a Nikon or whatever.

If you are unlucky, you'll discover that you like many, many different types of cameras. Then you will be happy no matter what you own, but you will eventually accumulate a closest full of gear that you never have enough time to use.

I'm one of the unlucky ones.....but after many years of wishing and hoping, I finally own a couple of Leica R cameras, so I'm also very, very happy! :thumbs:

Gary

PS. The M Leica? Heck, I have a hard enough time focusing my Mamiya 7II, no way could I focus a Leica M. Bummer! :(
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Like other said the "hate" comes from one of two places and it's the extremism that drives it all. There are those in the camp that everything that's not a Leica is crap and those that think that everyone who uses a Leica is a rich and snobbish collector. The truth is that most Leica users are pretty reasonable and friendly people who like the "rangefinder" way.

I agree that EVF will more than likely make rangefinders irrelevant but there will always be purist who prefer the tried and true. It's almost the same argument that people use against luxury car drivers and the manual transmission v. automated clutch argument. No matter how much faster or more perfect the shifts are I think some people just don't like control being taken away from them.

I also mirror Jonoslack experience except I probably took fewer shots with the M9 than the A77 but at a quick glance in Aperture I have a higher percentage of keepers with the M9 than the A77 because I slowed down.
 

m_driscoll

New member
If I comment, it'd be mostly redundant; however, I won't let that stop me.

I've been shooting with my Nex 7, a lot lately, using Sony E and A and Leica M and R glass. I'm just having fun. Everybody that i know who has a Leica, probably has 3-4 other cameras of different brands (one, probably, the camera du jour...moi). Does anybody have only Leicas and won't use any other camera? Half the people on this forum are posting in several camera brand threads.

On my recent trip to India, I took the Nex 7 and my M9. I shot a lot more with the Nex 7 (most used lens was the 18-200mm), but, I believe more of the photos that I like were with the M9. What does that personally tell me? A lot, but not relevant here.

I lust after new lenses and cameras, maybe more then most. Not because, I'm deluded into thinking they'll make me a better photographer, but because they provide a new experience, something to learn, subjects for conversations with fellow sufferers, and a tool to create with.

That rambled off track. If they don't like your photo, ask why? If they don't like your camera, tell them to bugger off, and, then ignore them.

Cheers, Matt

Zenfolio | Matt Driscoll
 

250swb

Member
A Leica will not make you a better photographer. But if it suits you it can be the camera that you feel most at home with, so you forget about the camera and get on with photography, and that will make you a better photographer.

I am on a downward spiral of wanting a simpler and simpler camera, multiple menu's annoy me, I have no patience with megapixels or AF modes. But the lens is important, and with a Leica you get a vast choice to enjoy, everything from a characterful Russian bargain bin special to a Summilux that costs the same as a car. Each has the same level of importance if it renders the final image how you want it. So far from being elitist I think, from what I read, using a Leica makes people very non judgemental photographer's, less concerned with gadgets and the box that holds the film or the sensor, and more interested in the final image. So to the OP, just ignore them, if it works for you treasure it.

Steve
 

jonoslack

Active member
There is another group. Those who are put off by supercilious Leica snobs. The people who respond to any question with "Well, <sigh> there are some who will just never understand." Or "It requires a certain sensitivity to adapt to the process." or the inevitable invocation of HCB and what HE would have thought of your stupid question or.. :loco:
HI Matt
I shall have to try not to be guilty!




The M is terrible value. There's so much you don't get for all the $$$ you pay. No AF, slow FPS, tiny buffer, slow card write speed, parallax issues, no live view, etc... I have several other cameras, mirrorless and DSLRs and most of those are "better" than my M9 in many ways. All that said, the camera I get the most satisfaction from using is the M9 and those wonderful M lenses. I don't have an explanation for it and can't really justify but regardless it is a fact for me. I can understand how this defies reasoning and logic and to those who don't feel this way it makes no sense, so they attack.
HI Aravind
I think your shortcomings fall into two categories:


1. things you don't really need which simplify the experience:
No AF, no live view, parallax etc. these things (IMHO) are part of the beauty.
2. things that ought to be improved with the next camera:
slow fps, tiny buffer, slow (dodgy) card writing, noisy shutter

I seem to have added to your list!
 
V

Vivek

Guest
I've just gone through the snaps on our recent trip to China - I had an A77 and a Leica with me all the time, and shot about the same number of shots with each - whereas about 85% of the keepers are with the Leica. (I also had a panasonic G1x, but my wife appropriated that and too some good shots).
Hi Jono, Why you (not you in particular, it goes for everyone else as well) then go to the trouble of lugging the other gear at all? Of course, this is better than leaving the M9 in the vitrine closet and actually using a cheaper second tier gear.

BTW, I am still looking forward to your China visit pictures. :)

[PS: I did explain myself to Robert in a PM. I absolutely do not approve of hate mail for whatever reason. It is simply deplorable.]
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Same experience here, I sometimes look at my ratings in Lightroom, how much "Goog" images from which camera - and my rate is S2>=M9>=others (right now Nex and Nikon D700).
Some days ago I brought the Nex7 for example, had fun shooting, took 200 images, and there was not one real keeper.
I often have to use a camera for some time to find out if it works fine for me or not. Sometimes I cant even find an explanation why one works better for me. All I trust are my eyes and sometimes the comments I get from people looking at my images.
If friends ask me which camera to buy I tell them allthe time: Go to a store , hamdle them, look through the viewfinder. Thats much more important than 2MP more or less, or half stop better ISO behaviour.
But I am also aware that for others a different camera might work much better.
One other thing: Even I like the feel and build and quality of Leicas I see it as what it is: its just a camera
 

jonoslack

Active member
HI Vivek
Hi Jono, Why you (not you in particular, it goes for everyone else as well) then go to the trouble of lugging the other gear at all?
I think Matt put the situation very well:

I lust after new lenses and cameras, maybe more then most. Not because, I'm deluded into thinking they'll make me a better photographer, but because they provide a new experience, something to learn, subjects for conversations with fellow sufferers, and a tool to create with.
I think you said something about people owning M9s but shooting with other cameras more - in this context it's worth mentioning that on this site, the incentive for posting Leica pictures is less urgent, and with a slowish internet connection I find the 'fun with Leica' thread rather onerous.

In the last month, I seem to have taken 1300 shots with an M, and 600 shots without (FWIW of course) - the number of keepers is obviously a different thing, and not so easy to work out.

However, in this situation the reason I carried the A77 was so that I could use longer focal length lenses (the 70-300G got used a lot), which the M9 doesn't allow easily.

Of course, this is better than leaving the M9 in the vitrine closet and actually using a cheaper second tier gear.
I don't see much evidence around here of people doing that - of course, if that were the case then you could construe the purchase of the bodies as a waste of money (although perhaps not the lenses as they seem to keep their value pretty well)


BTW, I am still looking forward to your China visit pictures. :)
Hmm yes, well, there might be a bit of a wait - I came back to a lot of work, added to which I'm trying to put a book together, which means that I haven't put anything up on the website yet. I can promise you there will be some in the next few weeks - nobody has ever accused me of being shy posting shots (perhaps it'd be better if I was!)

[PS: I did explain myself to Robert in a PM. I absolutely do not approve of hate mail for whatever reason. It is simply deplorable.]
I was picking you up on the 'waste of money' - Of course - it never occurred to me for a second that you did approve of hate mail or that you approved of Robert's detractors!:angel::salute:

all the best
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Hi Jono, Why you (not you in particular, it goes for everyone else as well) then go to the trouble of lugging the other gear at all? Of course, this is better than leaving the M9 in the vitrine closet and actually using a cheaper second tier gear.

BTW, I am still looking forward to your China visit pictures. :)

[PS: I did explain myself to Robert in a PM. I absolutely do not approve of hate mail for whatever reason. It is simply deplorable.]
Hi Vivek,
some reason for the other gear which comes and goes:
- toy factor - sometimes something new comes out and one jumps on it; One can allways find reasons to justify yourself you need to buy a certain camera; One needs a Nex because now with the kids one wants to shoot movies here and there, the M9 is limited to 135mm as longest lens, the high ISO of the Nex is better,.... Once one owns it it has the "new toy" factor for some weeks. Once that factor is gone the real test comes: Do I really need/use it. Sometimes the answer is yes, often the answer is no and it goes again.

-application: If I go on a bycicle tour with the MTB I dont want a 15k equipment in my bag, so I would rather carry a x100 or a Nex or a x1 or m4/3; If I shoot action/sports/long Tele/very high ISO a different camera (Nikon for example) just works better than a Leica.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Hey Robert, you have eyes to see with. They are your eyes, not someone else's. If you like what you see, then why care what others can see or not? It's about what you produce, not what you carry.

Making a photograph is somehow positioned as difficult and complex. In reality it is simple. School children can do it well. So why the universal need to automate something that's simple? Does everything have to be the same? Leica M cameras tend to be simple and un-complex. A more direct photographic experience.

Leica stuff is expensive. If they were not in demand, they would not be expensive ... or, they would still be expensive, and no one would buy them, then there would be no more Leica anything. That price/value argument has been around forever, and will continue into the 2020s ... (unless the Mayans were right :))

Leica products may not be relevant to some, but that is them, not everyone. IMHO, the M and S2 are more relevant to my work, and my eye, and my art, than anything else out there. There-in lies MY price/value equation ... "Everything else, is everything less", (my favorite generic tag line ;))

I get approached while working all the time, some big DSLR toting fellow steps up, whips down his virtual zipper and wants to compare cameras. I have taken to telling them what a fantastic machine they have, and how I wished I could afford one, and so on, then get back to work.

Marc
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Hi Vivek,
some reason for the other gear which comes and goes:
- toy factor - sometimes something new comes out and one jumps on it; One can allways find reasons to justify yourself you need to buy a certain camera; One needs a Nex because now with the kids one wants to shoot movies here and there, the M9 is limited to 135mm as longest lens, the high ISO of the Nex is better,.... Once one owns it it has the "new toy" factor for some weeks. Once that factor is gone the real test comes: Do I really need/use it. Sometimes the answer is yes, often the answer is no and it goes again.

-application: If I go on a bycicle tour with the MTB I dont want a 15k equipment in my bag, so I would rather carry a x100 or a Nex or a x1 or m4/3; If I shoot action/sports/long Tele/very high ISO a different camera (Nikon for example) just works better than a Leica.
The fame and fortune (or rather the price tag) of the brand works against it (at times) being used as a tool that ought to be.

I have only seen one M9 sold here that really looked brassed. I did congratulate that seller. :)
 

HeavyDuty

New member
If I comment, it'd be mostly redundant; however, I won't let that stop me.

I've been shooting with my Nex 7, a lot lately, using Sony E and A and Leica M and R glass. I'm just having fun. Everybody that i know who has a Leica, probably has 3-4 other cameras of different brands (one, probably, the camera du jour...moi). Does anybody have only Leicas and won't use any other camera? Half the people on this forum are posting in several camera brand threads.

On my recent trip to India, I took the Nex 7 and my M9. I shot a lot more with the Nex 7 (most used lens was the 18-200mm), but, I believe more of the photos that I like were with the M9. What does that personally tell me? A lot, but not relevant here.

I lust after new lenses and cameras, maybe more then most. Not because, I'm deluded into thinking they'll make me a better photographer, but because they provide a new experience, something to learn, subjects for conversations with fellow sufferers, and a tool to create with.

That rambled off track. If they don't like your photo, ask why? If they don't like your camera, tell them to bugger off, and, then ignore them.

Cheers, Matt

Zenfolio | Matt Driscoll
The M is terrible value. There's so much you don't get for all the $$$ you pay. No AF, slow FPS, tiny buffer, slow card write speed, parallax issues, no live view, etc... I have several other cameras, mirrorless and DSLRs and most of those are "better" than my M9 in many ways. All that said, the camera I get the most satisfaction from using is the M9 and those wonderful M lenses. I don't have an explanation for it and can't really justify but regardless it is a fact for me. I can understand how this defies reasoning and logic and to those who don't feel this way it makes no sense, so they attack.
Both of these posts illustrate a concept of mine - that for some photographers simpler cameras with prime lenses work better, and that more complex cameras with varifocals/zooms inject too much choice into the process. I know that's how it works for me.
 
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