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Thread: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

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    b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    I wonder if a b&W M (if it will come) would be expected to beat S2-images converted to b&W in regards of IQ???

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    I wonder if a b&W M (if it will come) would be expected to beat S2-images converted to b&W in regards of IQ???
    Depends on how much stock you place in the difference between a 35mm aesthetic, and that of a more medium format. I would suspect that at the pixel level, the IQ of a dedicated B&W M using the more modern ASPH lenses will be spectacular.

    IMO, the nature of a M lends itself to B&W applications, where the S2 may be applied more to color works (thinking Beauty & Fashion and/or commercial).

    I do know that S2 files converted to B&W in software such as Nik Silver Efex hold their own with the M9 conversions, while offering much larger print ability (or more severe cropping), and a nicer tonal spread.

    There are ramifications of a dedicated B&W sensor not discussed very much so far. Like controlling the sensitivity to colors. When we convert a color S2 file in a program like Nik Silver Efex, we have enormous control over B&W sensitivity to various colors ... more than we did with B&W film using color filters. How that will all be done with a B&W dedicated camera remains to be seen.

    -Marc

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    It will be faster than the S2, for sure.

    I would take it with a pinhole.

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    There are ramifications of a dedicated B&W sensor not discussed very much so far. Like controlling the sensitivity to colors. When we convert a color S2 file in a program like Nik Silver Efex, we have enormous control over B&W sensitivity to various colors ... more than we did with B&W film using color filters. How that will all be done with a B&W dedicated camera remains to be seen.

    -Marc
    I use the same filters used with black and white film when using my dedicated monochrome digital camera. Clean off those Green, Yellow, Orange, and Red filters, set, go.

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian S View Post
    I use the same filters used with black and white film when using my dedicated monochrome digital camera. Clean off those Green, Yellow, Orange, and Red filters, set, go.
    Yes, I guess thats one point where a converted color image offers a little more "comfort" and flexibility, doing the filtering afterwards in software vs having to carry filters, and screw them on and off and not being able to change afterwards.

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    The same argument exists for shooting color film instead of black and white, and then printing the negatives with black and white paper. You could filter in the darkroom and get the "same results". The analog equivalent of converting color digital images to monochrome. You give up spatial resolution. With most color digital cameras, you need an AA filter. With Leica color digital cameras without AA filters, you run the risk of moire. Converting a color image with moire present to monochrome leaves the artifacts.

    By getting rid of the color mosaic filter, a dedicated monochrome camera picks up one stop of sensitivity and eliminates moire. Use it just like black and white film in terms of filters. I see more "black and white-ized" images from Leica shooters than anyone else. Probably more black and white images than color. Myself, I've never been happy with any digital monochrome image from a converted color file after owning and using a dedicated monochrome digital camera.

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian S View Post
    The same argument exists for shooting color film instead of black and white, and then printing the negatives with black and white paper. You could filter in the darkroom and get the "same results". The analog equivalent of converting color digital images to monochrome. You give up spatial resolution. With most color digital cameras, you need an AA filter. With Leica color digital cameras without AA filters, you run the risk of moire. Converting a color image with moire present to monochrome leaves the artifacts.

    By getting rid of the color mosaic filter, a dedicated monochrome camera picks up one stop of sensitivity and eliminates moire. Use it just like black and white film in terms of filters. I see more "black and white-ized" images from Leica shooters than anyone else. Probably more black and white images than color. Myself, I've never been happy with any digital monochrome image from a converted color file after owning and using a dedicated monochrome digital camera.
    That is good news Brian. For me, it will further enhance the Rangefinder experience of stripping away distractions regarding content, and getting to "of the moment" emotional essence ... where B&W rules IMO.

    -Marc

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian S View Post

    By getting rid of the color mosaic filter, a dedicated monochrome camera picks up one stop of sensitivity and eliminates moire. Use it just like black and white film in terms of filters. I see more "black and white-ized" images from Leica shooters than anyone else. Probably more black and white images than color. Myself, I've never been happy with any digital monochrome image from a converted color file after owning and using a dedicated monochrome digital camera.
    This sounds most interesting - I miss the true B&W feel as well.

    Marc, I'll join you as I start dreaming of a dedicated B&W Leica...

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    When we convert a color S2 file in a program like Nik Silver Efex, we have enormous control over B&W sensitivity to various colors ... more than we did with B&W film using color filters. How that will all be done with a B&W dedicated camera remains to be seen.

    -Marc
    Marc,

    I'm not specifically sure how Leica will implement and design a dedicated B&W dedicated digital camera, but speaking of "Nik"....I've have a feeling (whether it becomes public knowledge or not) that "Nik" does have something to do with development of this camera. Whether their B&W filters (Silver Efex) is simply part of certain menu shooting options to enhance in-camera output or are somehow incorporated or involved in the "in-camera" B&W processing (jpeg or Raw?), I simply don't know, but I believe they (Nik) are part of the package so to speak.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 2nd May 2012 at 06:41.
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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    I wonder if a b&W M (if it will come) would be expected to beat S2-images converted to b&W in regards of IQ???
    You mean a monochrome 18MP 35mm sensor vs. a color 37MP S2 sensor? No contest, the S2 will easily beat a 35mm monochrome sensor. The Bayer pattern gives up very little resolving power.

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    Shaping up to be a very interesting announcement in Berlin.

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    You mean a monochrome 18MP 35mm sensor vs. a color 37MP S2 sensor? No contest, the S2 will easily beat a 35mm monochrome sensor. The Bayer pattern gives up very little resolving power.
    I dont know how much resolution such a camera would have, and then peeople say a B&W sensor also has much better DR than a color sensor.

    I know then there is also the lens where the light must go through.

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    I dont know how much resolution such a camera would have, and then peeople say a B&W sensor also has much better DR than a color sensor.

    I know then there is also the lens where the light must go through.
    A monochrome camera does not have any better DR than a color camera--the pixels are the same, putting a filter over them does not change DR. The monochrome will be more sensitive as there are no filters to suck up light. I use monochrome cameras. Personally for general photography, I perfer a color camera simply because I have the color channels available for the mono conversion.

    BTW, attached is the difference between Bayer interpolated color and un-interpolated color--and that is the only difference between the images as they are from the same camera. These are 100% crops. It is really tough to see the difference.

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    A monochrome camera does not have any better DR than a color camera--the pixels are the same, putting a filter over them does not change DR. The monochrome will be more sensitive as there are no filters to suck up light. I use monochrome cameras. Personally for general photography, I perfer a color camera simply because I have the color channels available for the mono conversion.

    BTW, attached is the difference between Bayer interpolated color and un-interpolated color--and that is the only difference between the images as they are from the same camera. These are 100% crops. It is really tough to see the difference.
    Sashin-so for what use do you take the monochrone cameras?

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    I do a lot of imaging through microscopes. I use specially designed monochrome microscope cameras. The camera in the examples above is a color camera, but it also has pixel shifting technology that can shift the sensor by a pixel pitch which allows it to take a red, green, and blue exposure at the same point eliminating the need for Bayer interpolation.

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    Rumored to be in the US $9,000 price range (Leica Rumors). Sounds like a bargain!

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    "Sounds like a bargain!"

    Have faith; maybe there'll be an ala carte version for extra. They could make one that would shoot color as well as B&W; that would be ground breaking.

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    You are right, Stephen.

    Being a non M9 owner means someone with limited imagination in certain aspects.
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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Rumored to be in the US $9,000 price range (Leica Rumors). Sounds like a bargain!
    Isnt it crazy how much we pay for a little bit better IQ, handling and simplicity?

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    I'm not sure about the "little bit better IQ", it could be that or a lot better!
    It's out of my price range and I don't need or want it. Although i would love to see amazing dynamic range and for it to see in dark with next to no noise!

    This time around I don't care for ownership or price. However, for those with pockets for this and will be using it due course, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, shoot to impress
    That's all I ask of you!

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    Quote Originally Posted by pophoto View Post
    I'm not sure about the "little bit better IQ", it could be that or a lot better!
    It's out of my price range and I don't need or want it. Although i would love to see amazing dynamic range and for it to see in dark with next to no noise!

    This time around I don't care for ownership or price. However, for those with pockets for this and will be using it due course, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, shoot to impress
    That's all I ask of you!

    I think a famous musician will get one and show some snaps. His name eludes me but he is really very famous.

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I think a famous musician will get one and show some snaps. His name eludes me but he is really very famous.
    You're not thinking of SEAL are you?

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    Quote Originally Posted by pophoto View Post
    I'm not sure about the "little bit better IQ", it could be that or a lot better!
    It's out of my price range and I don't need or want it. Although i would love to see amazing dynamic range and for it to see in dark with next to no noise!

    This time around I don't care for ownership or price. However, for those with pockets for this and will be using it due course, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, shoot to impress
    That's all I ask of you!
    What do you want? a black cat in the tunnel shot? no problem

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    Try Polar bear in the snow!
    Black cat is too easy!

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    "Black cat in a tunnel" ... Well, I guess it won't be discouraging pet pix. Maybe it'll trim down the flower shots done with a rangefinder?

    I think I'll start a "Fun with M9B" thread.

    -Marc

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    I think I'll start a "Fun with M9B" thread.

    -Marc
    Why, do you have some beta tested M9B images already Marc

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    "Black cat in a tunnel" ... Well, I guess it won't be discouraging pet pix. Maybe it'll trim down the flower shots done with a rangefinder?
    That seems most unlikely Marc - the world is awash with black and white pictures of lilies, seed heads and vegetables . . . why stop when you have a real black and white camera to take them with?

    . . . erm, didn't some cheapskate photographer do some thinly veiled pornographic shots of peppers at some point?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I think I'll start a "Fun with M9B" thread.

    -Marc
    Why not start it now - precognition is an splendid attribute

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Rumored to be in the US $9,000 price range (Leica Rumors). Sounds like a bargain!
    Compared with my first Monochrome Digital camera it is. $12,400 for 1.6MPixels. That was 20 years ago, prices for digital have come down.

    On a humorous note, my wife priced out a 6MPixel Digital camera for her project, $30K. That was ~1996 for a Kodak DCS460.

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian S View Post
    Compared with my first Monochrome Digital camera it is. $12,400 for 1.6MPixels. That was 20 years ago, prices for digital have come down.
    Indeed they have. You can get a Canon 500/550D converted to monochrome for <$2,000.

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    That seems most unlikely Marc - the world is awash with black and white pictures of lilies, seed heads and vegetables . . . why stop when you have a real black and white camera to take them with?

    . . . erm, didn't some cheapskate photographer do some thinly veiled pornographic shots of peppers at some point?



    Why not start it now - precognition is an splendid attribute
    Hey, that's the ticket ... Leica's always looking to be different ... the Precog M-0 ... what you dream is on your computer in the AM.

    Oh, oh, maybe that wouldn't be such a good idea come to think about it.

    -Marc

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    Re: b&W-M vs S2 IQ (B&W)

    I'm sorry, but if I want to shoot B&W I'll use the original full frame sensor...

    FILM!

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