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Thread: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

  1. #101
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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Leica before the M8 was all about tri-X and fixer. Images came to mind in B&W.
    -bob
    I tended to Pan F and APX 25.....so wanted Tech Pan to work but only found out about Pyro later.

    Bob

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    I have to say I love how different everyone's perspective is! Personally, I love color film in an M camera -- the m lenses have fantastic color, they really sing with slide film. That said, I will shoot black and white film with them as well, perhaps even more often. And I don't think the M cameras are only street cameras -- I use them for all sorts of things, as do many others. Nor is everyone is truly interested in photographing the human condition, as Marc put it. My own street photography stems from an interest of the interplay of light, architecture and people who are more compositional elements than representatives of a well-defined emotional state. When I am photographing people, it is almost exclusively people who I know and care about. We all have our interests, and we will grab the tools that seem to serve them best...it's quite nice to know that we use the tools to make different things.
    In terms of the M9M, it seems superb for people who exclusively shoot black and white. Personally, I like the option to do both, but I would of course love to have one body to do B&W and one for color, but at 8000 it is not in the cards. That said, it does not seem THAT extreme compared to the regular M9P, not to mention the Noctilux or new summicron. I would rather have an M9M rather than a noctilux or 50mm summicron asph any day!
    My photos are here: http://www.stuartrichardson.com and more recent work here: http://stuartrichardson.tumblr.com/ Please have a look at my book!
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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    I, for one, am very appreciative of the photos and discussion provided by Jono.

    Anyone that has seen his work knows that he is an excellent and thoughtful photographer who also shares a passion for the equipment itself. Combined with his pleasing and easy to read prose, he seems an fine choice for Leica to make for pre-release testing.

    This nonsensical and excessive criticism of his MM images, many of which are quite strong, appears to be coming from people with rather mundane portfolios. And, more to the point, detracts from his rather useful contribution to the Leica community regarding this interesting camera.

    My own work is not exactly heavy on BW but I don't shy away from it either.

    Some images from my recent exhibition here:

    April 2012 – Bill Fulcher |

    Leica M9 sports shooter and cage fighting aficionado,

    Bill
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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Jono, thanks for posting and sharing the pics at your site.

    I have been following the development on the MM closely since the official launch as I am very interested in this camera. I appreciate your subtle or "lack of pp" on the files. This is what I expected to see, neutral files to show what the sensor is capable of. Its been an amusing few days, reading about all the complains from people who are not interested in this camera, (eg no color, old firmware, poor LCD, etc etc.) This camera is definitely not meant for them, nor is the M9 to probably 95-99% of the digital camera market or photographers. This is a niche within a niche and I salute Leica for bringing the MM to the market for the 1% who will appreciate this camera.

    I'm at a point where I'm considering shooting purely B&W and the MM may have just helped me decide. My only concern is Sept 2012 seems a few months away and I'll probably wait and see what else Leica has up their sleeves. Judging from the internet chatter, its just a matter of time that a M10 shows up, my only concern is that it might be priced out of the range of many photographers, including myself.

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI There
    Many thanks for the heads up on this - it's nice to know when one is being slagged off!
    I gave myself a 24 hour cooling off period, and then posted a response - I hope it doesn't sound either defensive or sulky Never complain . . . and never explain is how it goes, but sometimes its tough to keep one's mouth shut (click on the iink if you want to find out whether I'm grumpy or crotchety!!
    all the best
    Jono: Excellent response on RFf.

    Jaap's post after yours was 'telling': "I have not spoken to one user-expert here who was not over the moon with this camera and many were writing out cheques on the spot."

    Cheers, Matt

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    LOL so that's it take a really expensive Leica into those gritty dirt night stalker beats. Why do I think of hookers and body art here. Oh wait I know why maybe cause of the red lights on the street we get a better black and white filter response . Okay this technically make sense now. I get it, carry on buy without caution but please carry you night stick monopod.

    LOL you know I have to give you guys some **** here. Oh that Leica feeling. I miss it at times not sure it misses me though. Seriously I would still love to have a M9 and who knows it just may happen someday.

    Have fun folks you know where to find me and send it right back at me.

    Jono nice stuff bud as always. BTW don't eat anyone's grumpy attitude, your service to the industry is well appreciated. Remember 99 percent of the time it's just jealousy. I wear the t shirt. Part of being involved sorry to say.
    Guy: Right now, it's taking the M9-P and the Nocti into those 'mean streets'. You can run a lot faster without the Nocti weighing you down.

    Cheers, Matt

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Guy is right IMHO, better to convert to mono as and when the subject dictates as not every potential picture is right for mono, just as not every one is right for colour.

    Good mono photographers can"see" in black and white it seems to me. Darn'd if I can!
    Cheers, Dave
    www.simmondsphotography.com

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by wilsonlaidlaw View Post
    Jono,

    Thank you for the blog and pictures - well done. I can see the point of the M9M for people who take a lot of B&W and in comparison to the M9. However how is it going to compare with converted images from the M10. Now with a bit of guesswork, the M10 will have a CMOS sensor with around 28MP and ISO up to 12,000ish + boost. If those figures are anywhere near correct, I feel a converted B&W from the M10 will be close to indistinguishable from an M9M even at high ISO's. The M10 will have the obvious benefit of taking colour but for B&W it has the not inconsiderable benefit of being able to apply filters retrospectively at the conversion stage, in adjustments or even better in lab colour space. For me it's wait for the M10.

    Wilson
    That is a major consideration isn't it?

    Also funds aren't unlimited. After the big financial crisis I went from a Millionaire to a Thousandaire just as I retired, and with all "possibles" piling up (M10, possible S3, Possible new smaller Hasselblad, Leica H to S adapter, need to update my HC120 to the Mark-II version for the 60 back, new lighting needs and upgrades like new Lithium batteries for the Quadra, etc.), one has to take pause and make choices no matter how intriguing something may be.

    On the other hand, I'm worried that a CMOS M will not have the image qualities of the CCD Ms, and the stunning developments and fantastic sensor innovations of the D800 tends to bears out that concern to my eye.

    This may be the last chance to get a CCD, and one that solves the one nagging concern I've had with CCD Ms, ability to shoot at a higher ISOs.

    I need to get my hands on a higher ISO DNG file and play with it before making a commitment to the M Mono ... if I do at all.

    -Marc
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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Marc

    Well said. Agree 100% on the CCD IQ which I find much more to my liking . Both the M9 and the S2 work exceptionally well together . They render images in a similar way and without much trouble you can get a collection of images to look seamless. The D800E (which I have now) is different enough that I generally choose ..is this an subject for the M9/S2 or should I go with the Nikons. While I look forward to the advantages of CMOS ...I sort of feel like they will be “taking my Kodachrome (look) away “ again!

    The other issues that s been stated before...is the time and effort to refine both your shooting technique and the post processing . It takes thousands of captures to grove a RF technique to the point where you can concentrate on seeing verse fiddling with you camera . Adding new gear has a cost in my effectiveness and takes my focus (concentration ) away from photography .

    Not saying that playing with new gear isn t fun but ...

    I did give up on the Sony Nex 7 and the Fuji X Pro 1 both because they brought only small improvements to my kit and each required a real effort to master .

    Photokina could be a disaster for me if Leica introduces both an M10 and the S3 .


    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    That is a major consideration isn't it?

    Also funds aren't unlimited. After the big financial crisis I went from a Millionaire to a Thousandaire just as I retired, and with all "possibles" piling up (M10, possible S3, Possible new smaller Hasselblad, Leica H to S adapter, need to update my HC120 to the Mark-II version for the 60 back, new lighting needs and upgrades like new Lithium batteries for the Quadra, etc.), one has to take pause and make choices no matter how intriguing something may be.

    On the other hand, I'm worried that a CMOS M will not have the image qualities of the CCD Ms, and the stunning developments and fantastic sensor innovations of the D800 tends to bears out that concern to my eye.

    This may be the last chance to get a CCD, and one that solves the one nagging concern I've had with CCD Ms, ability to shoot at a higher ISOs.

    I need to get my hands on a higher ISO DNG file and play with it before making a commitment to the M Mono ... if I do at all.

    -Marc

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    Dave (D&A),

    i shoot with both the 75 Summilux and the 50 Lux pre-asph. I like the look of the older lenses and am mad about all things Mandler. even my Noctilux is the old E58 which i swear is different from the E60 (and most definitely the f/.95).

    i will honestly be thrilled beyond belief to be able to boost the ISO so i can get faster shutter speeds! i plan to push this camera to the limits -- with an array of mostly older lenses.
    Hi Cam (and all),

    For my own personal perspective, using vintage lenses such as those designed by Mandler on a M9, often help to contribute to a more classical film look, but only to a degree, since modern day digital cameras have too much of a fingerprint and a noise pattern at higher ISO, that really doesn't emulate film all that accurately. Of course post processing has an influence in all this too. The way I see it, the M9M is providing additional steps towards that "end" (producing a more film like image), not because it's a B&W only camera, but the way it exposes for the midtones and shadows (from what I've seen so far) and how it reproduces them. Combine these attributes with a more film like grain structure at higher ISO's, along with judicious of lenses like those designed by Mandler and it's just one more step.

    It's not like the M9 cannot produce fantastic B&W images and prints, it can and I've seen some stunning ones processed through Silverfast. It's simply that the M9M is one more step in that evolutionary goal of producing a digital camera that can emulate B&W film. How well it does that is of course subjective and whether the future M10 supersedes the M9 towards that end, we'll just have to wait and see.

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    HI Dave
    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Hi Cam (and all),

    For my own personal perspective, using vintage lenses such as those designed by Mandler on a M9, often help to contribute to a more classical film look, but only to a degree, since modern day digital cameras have too much of a fingerprint and a noise pattern at higher ISO, that really doesn't emulate film all that accurately. Of course post processing has an influence in all this too. The way I see it, the M9M is providing additional steps towards that "end" (producing a more film like image), not because it's a B&W only camera, but the way it exposes for the midtones and shadows (from what I've seen so far) and how it reproduces them. Combine these attributes with a more film like grain structure at higher ISO's, along with judicious of lenses like those designed by Mandler and it's just one more step.

    It's not like the M9 cannot produce fantastic B&W images and prints, it can and I've seen some stunning ones processed through Silverfast. It's simply that the M9M is one more step in that evolutionary goal of producing a digital camera that can emulate B&W film. How well it does that is of course subjective and whether the future M10 supersedes the M9 towards that end, we'll just have to wait and see.

    Dave (D&A)
    It's an interesting perspective.
    I see it slightly differently, in that I'm really not that interested in the concept of emulating B&W film . . . surely, if that's what you want then you should . . . .erm . . . shoot B&W film!

    On the other hand, what I do like is that the MM seems to me to take the 'digital look' out of the digital files. I think it's a different thing again.

    here's something different from it:


    MM Wate ISO 320 18mm Walberswick, Suffolk.

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Beautiful.

    I am very happy to see this camera on the market. Leica took a bold step in bringing monochrome back as a salient feature of a digital camera.

    I believe that other manufacturers will take a look at how this camera is received. Nikon must have been looking at the Leica cameras to offer the D800e: leaving out the AA filter, something that they have not done since 1998.
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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Dave

    It's an interesting perspective.
    I see it slightly differently, in that I'm really not that interested in the concept of emulating B&W film . . . surely, if that's what you want then you should . . . .erm . . . shoot B&W film!

    On the other hand, what I do like is that the MM seems to me to take the 'digital look' out of the digital files. I think it's a different thing again.
    Jono,

    A very dramatic and striking image by any standards or means. Maybe it's a poor use of a descriptive word for an image, but the phrase "organic" comes to mind when I see an image like this where there are many elements in constant movement simply by the forces of nature. The sky, the ocean and what I would imaging the ever changing shape and form of the sandy beach. Whether this all comes to life in this image is due to the M9M, the photographer, the post processing skills or a combination of two or more things, I cannot say (unless each element is removed one at a time). Yet clearly if such image tonality as reproduced, goes hand in hand with things like the smoothness of the sky which reproduced in such a way that it doesn't take away from the acuity and detail of the rocks/pebbles on the left hand side of the beach, then a good case can be made for this camera. Thats not to say other similarly excellent B&W images can't be made from the regular M9 they can and are. It's partly about convincing the potential user of this camera, that there are advantages to using it for B&W imagery over say another "color" digital camera.

    In that sense you are right, it's not "all" about emulating B&W film but besting other digital cameras in its use for B&W imagery and being able to use such a tool for it's superiority in this realm.

    No doubt though in my opinion, Leica is also trying to connivence those that shoot B&W film, that this is a viable alternative, and maybe a way to saying...in the future, we might not be producing film cameras anymore, so we're on the road to providing a suitable and acceptable replacement. Just the 1st step among many. Nicely done Jono!

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Jono, have you tried setting the MM to expose by -1/2 or -1 stop to protect the highlights? It sounds like there is detail enough in the shadows to permit this.

    Chris

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Well Jonno - with 'fame' comes envy I guess and it is a cheap currency on the internet - I am sure you won't lose too much sleep over it.

    Great to see Leica come out with a camera that is dedicated to B&W and might ( even) save a few steps in post processing.

    Thanks for posting your snaps as an intro - I liked them.

    oh yes I have one on order ...always wanted to have the digi equivalent of what I did in film days- one camera for B&W film and the other for slide..

    Pete

    *PS wonderfully lucky to get those fox cub shots mate!

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by chrism View Post
    Jono, have you tried setting the MM to expose by -1/2 or -1 stop to protect the highlights? It sounds like there is detail enough in the shadows to permit this.

    Chris
    HI Chris
    Yes indeed - and anyway, Leica have helped with the newer firmware. Not overexposing is what it always was - easy but you need to think about it!

    On the whole I leave the camera at -1/3, but I'm quite prepared to do more if it seems necessary.

    It's practice, but certainly not a problem.
    all the best

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I see it slightly differently, in that I'm really not that interested in the concept of emulating B&W film . . . surely, if that's what you want then you should . . . .erm . . . shoot B&W film!

    On the other hand, what I do like is that the MM seems to me to take the 'digital look' out of the digital files. I think it's a different thing again.
    Well said!

    BTW, FWIW, I do see a similarity in the very long stretch of mid tones and the shadow details from my converted Panasonic G1/GH-2 camera (sporting an NMOS sensor) files in infrared where the Bayer dyes essentially become transparent. It is such a joy to work with and the output is pleasing.

    As an offshoot of the M9M, I hope outfits like maxmax will offer conversions of cameras other than a couple Canon DSLR models. I did ask them about the NEX-7 and the answer was a flat no, forcing me to carry on with my own attempts to do it myself.

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Well said!

    BTW, FWIW, I do see a similarity in the very long stretch of mid tones and the shadow details from my converted Panasonic G1/GH-2 camera (sporting an NMOS sensor) files in infrared where the Bayer dyes essentially become transparent. It is such a joy to work with and the output is pleasing.

    As an offshoot of the M9M, I hope outfits like maxmax will offer conversions of cameras other than a couple Canon DSLR models. I did ask them about the NEX-7 and the answer was a flat no, forcing me to carry on with my own attempts to do it myself.
    HI Vivek
    you know you need the MM - you know you do . . .. .





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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Yeah, Jono. It looks like an open and shut case.

    To think that I would go back to digital RF while even Leica themselves are openly talking about how wonderful the modern EVFs are...I am torn.

    Nevertheless, congrats to Leica! Wonderful stuff!
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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Maybe an M10 in half a year permits similar images?
    K-H.

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Maybe an M10 in half a year permits similar images?
    K-H.
    If it is a monochrome camera. I know it is difficult for people to accept that a monochrome camera is better in some aspects (all to do with IQ, tones) than a regular color one but that isn't the case at all.

    Edit: BTW, even if a color camera is physically converted (as Maxmax do to a couple of Canon DSLRs), the M9M is still a cut above them in that the Leica camera (sensor) has still has microlenses and no Bayer. The de-Bayering (of a regular color sensor) results in the loss of the microlens array and hence the sensitivity would be a bit below that of the M9M's sensor.
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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    If it is a monochrome camera. I know it is difficult for people to accept that a monochrome camera is better in some aspects (all to do with IQ, tones) than a regular color one but that isn't the case at all.

    Hi Vivek,

    I am not getting my point across. Sorry.

    Let's assume an M10 matches or exceeds a D800/E in resolution, dynamic range, and high ISO. Then one could produce B&W images as usually done on DSLRs or M9s, namely using filters etc after the fact.

    Of course, with the MM one has to work differently.

    My previous post wasn't concerned with the process, but only the end result achievable.

    Best, K-H.

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Hi K-H, Mine was also directly towards the end results.

    As I mentioned, the tonal range I see from a tiny NMOS sensor is difficult to achieve with something with higher resolution (more pixels), high S/N ratio and such.

    I am sure there will be endless "comparison" threads

    [FWIW, they do not do much for me ]
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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    An interesting camera. And I wish it success.

    If I like film..I should use film!! If I am thirsty I should get a drink. Yes, of course. If I like digital, use a digital camera.!!

    But why include Nik Silver Efex software. And prominently advertise its inclusion on the Leica site.

    Why also the reference to the effect that with a push of a button..zing.. one can get the tonalities..sepia etc. The darkroom.

    Why do I need Nik b&w emulation software, if I have a monochrome camera.?

    Could it be that the ' look and feel ' that we have become accustomed to over decades of b&w film is still so strong that digital ( however advanced )
    leaves us wanting.

    There is a nagging feeling that one could use an M9 and say Nik software and
    get similar results ( or better even ) than from raw M Monochrom.

    This is just me think out aloud. And I realize film and digital are two different
    mediums. But..
    koffee & kamera
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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post

    Why do I need Nik b&w emulation software, if I have a monochrome camera.?

    Could it be that the ' look and feel ' that we have become accustomed to over decades of b&w film is still so strong that digital ( however advanced )
    leaves us wanting.

    There is a nagging feeling that one could use an M9 and say Nik software and
    get similar results ( or better even ) than from raw M Monochrom.
    Rayyan, It is a monochrome camera with vestiges of the regular color camera in terms of processing. The single significant advantage here is for the buyer. If it had been a true monochrome camera and outputted only grey instead of RGB, there is no need for Nik pluggins but it would end up costing 3 times! Another advantage is the use of software filters in the post than real optical filters at the moment of the capture (realistically how many Leica or other users would be carrying a host of filters and keep swapping them according to the situation? In fact, I see very few "old school" filter usage among the current film shooters. Not many even know much about filter factors and such mundane things, let alone which color filter affects the tonality in what way.).

    I am sure there will be many comparison threads and blogs about that M9 + Nik software = M9M. It will be loads of fun to read/discuss.

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Vivek, thanks again. But price has never been a factor for Leica. A 50mm f/2 for US$7,000.00.

    Re: filters; I carry quite a few. uv/ir, uv,gnd, nd and on the nikon a variable nd, polarizing etc. Even Leica themselves allude to the use of the usual b&w filters ( R,O.Y) in their literature.

    I think with a base iso of 320 and fast lenses one might need nd filters if one wants to shoot wide open.

    I do appreciate what you are saying. And also agree with you that there shall be quite a few comparisons in the coming days with M9 + conversion vs M Monochrom.

    I shall eagerly await such comparisons. Then there is the prospect of the M10
    in Sept. There are questions that I believe shall be gradually answered in time.

    Thank you once again for your response.

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    I have to say I love how different everyone's perspective is! Personally, I love color film in an M camera -- the m lenses have fantastic color, they really sing with slide film. That said, I will shoot black and white film with them as well, perhaps even more often. And I don't think the M cameras are only street cameras -- I use them for all sorts of things, as do many others. Nor is everyone is truly interested in photographing the human condition, as Marc put it. My own street photography stems from an interest of the interplay of light, architecture and people who are more compositional elements than representatives of a well-defined emotional state. When I am photographing people, it is almost exclusively people who I know and care about. We all have our interests, and we will grab the tools that seem to serve them best...it's quite nice to know that we use the tools to make different things.
    In terms of the M9M, it seems superb for people who exclusively shoot black and white. Personally, I like the option to do both, but I would of course love to have one body to do B&W and one for color, but at 8000 it is not in the cards. That said, it does not seem THAT extreme compared to the regular M9P, not to mention the Noctilux or new summicron. I would rather have an M9M rather than a noctilux or 50mm summicron asph any day!
    I second what you say here Stuart and furthermore, I love using Lightroom to convert to B&W and being able to vary the saturation of the individual colors in the conversion to get as many effects as I have imagination.

    This is not to demean the MM, only to say I find advantages to converting. However the ability to get the dynamic range and high ISO available from the MM is unique, and probably ultimately compelling

    Woody Spedden

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    Senior Member CharlesK's Avatar
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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Jono, thanks again for these excellent examples! Love the seascape shot, and the detail of the wooden door. The seascape shot to my eyes, looks very much the depth, I remember with silver halide prints.
    I don't feel, there is a need to emulate film, but it may well be possible to improve the depth and rendering to the B&W media with this new sensor concept. The weakest link will be computer monitors, and really the seeing the IQ on a fine art print will be the test
    As Marc, has suggested, I love the thought of low light, nite street photography, and being able to truly use ISO 3200 to 8000 with full tonality would be great, even with the lux's and nocti's!
    Again, I would to try out some raw DNG files myself also, and see how malleable they are, and what they look in large prints.

    Personally, I love B&W, and should the M-M specs stack up, I would have this as my backup to the M9-P. This would be a great combo. Even if the M10 is announced in Photokina, I suspect the M10 will not be available until Jan or Feb next year.
    Charles Kalnins
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    http://kalnins.zenfolio.com

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesK View Post
    Jono, thanks again for these excellent examples! Love the seascape shot, and the detail of the wooden door. The seascape shot to my eyes, looks very much the depth, I remember with silver halide prints.
    I don't feel, there is a need to emulate film, but it may well be possible to improve the depth and rendering to the B&W media with this new sensor concept. The weakest link will be computer monitors, and really the seeing the IQ on a fine art print will be the test
    As Marc, has suggested, I love the thought of low light, nite street photography, and being able to truly use ISO 3200 to 8000 with full tonality would be great, even with the lux's and nocti's!
    Again, I would to try out some raw DNG files myself also, and see how malleable they are, and what they look in large prints.

    Personally, I love B&W, and should the M-M specs stack up, I would have this as my backup to the M9-P. This would be a great combo. Even if the M10 is announced in Photokina, I suspect the M10 will not be available until Jan or Feb next year.
    Charles: +1. I'm also concerned that the M10 sounds like it's going a little mainstream - CMOS Sensor/HD video/24 hour concierge service/etc.!

    Cheers, Matt

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    I'm more concerned that Leica will be insanely proud of their M10 and hence will jack up the price significantly compared to the M9-P or Monochrom. The current supply & demand with Leica products suggests that they could basically charge whatever they want these days if the newer lenses are anything to go by.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    An interesting camera. And I wish it success.

    If I like film..I should use film!! If I am thirsty I should get a drink. Yes, of course. If I like digital, use a digital camera.!!

    But why include Nik Silver Efex software. And prominently advertise its inclusion on the Leica site.

    Why also the reference to the effect that with a push of a button..zing.. one can get the tonalities..sepia etc. The darkroom.

    Why do I need Nik b&w emulation software, if I have a monochrome camera.?

    Could it be that the ' look and feel ' that we have become accustomed to over decades of b&w film is still so strong that digital ( however advanced )
    leaves us wanting.

    There is a nagging feeling that one could use an M9 and say Nik software and
    get similar results ( or better even ) than from raw M Monochrom.

    This is just me think out aloud. And I realize film and digital are two different
    mediums. But..
    I fear that the point of this camera is still being over-looked.

    It is dedicated to the B&W aesthetic, and happens to be digital. It makes no claim to supplant film as a medium of expression. It is its own form of expression.

    That Nik Silver Efex Pro-2 is supplied simply provides a powerful processing program also dedicated to the B&W aesthetic.

    Only part of Nik is designed to mimic the response of various film emulsions ... which is not mandatory to produce effective variations in B&W digital imagery. It's there IF you find that using one of the film types delivers what you want for any given lighting or creative scenario. Personally, I rarely use the film presets, and If I do, I alter it with all the adjustment tools ... which include very sophisticated and highly controllable local adjustments.

    Why you need Nik is like asking why one needs all the various tools and processing protocols for individual creative expression in the film darkroom.

    Then the other aspect of this camera compared to either the M9 or film based Ms ... it shoots at higher ISOs than the M9, and seems to do it well ... film Ms have a top shutter speed of 1/1000 compared to 1/4000 and you cannot change the ISO from 400 to 10,000 in 2 seconds.

    Whether that fits one's desires, or is worth the money is a personal question no one else can answer.

    -Marc
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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Marc, I agree with all that you say.

    I guess for someone like myself, at the bottom of the food chain, it becomes
    Very important to decide if and whether ' b&w aesthetic ' offered by this digital
    Form of expression cannot be derived from the existing digital forms of expressive cameras.

    Maybe I am just trying to find an excuse to avoid buying this and it indeed is
    Better than I would expect it to be.

    Best regards.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I fear that the point of this camera is still being over-looked.

    It is dedicated to the B&W aesthetic, and happens to be digital. It makes no claim to supplant film as a medium of expression. It is its own form of expression.

    That Nik Silver Efex Pro-2 is supplied simply provides a powerful processing program also dedicated to the B&W aesthetic.

    Only part of Nik is designed to mimic the response of various film emulsions ... which is not mandatory to produce effective variations in B&W digital imagery. It's there IF you find that using one of the film types delivers what you want for any given lighting or creative scenario. Personally, I rarely use the film presets, and If I do, I alter it with all the adjustment tools ... which include very sophisticated and highly controllable local adjustments.

    Why you need Nik is like asking why one needs all the various tools and processing protocols for individual creative expression in the film darkroom.

    Then the other aspect of this camera compared to either the M9 or film based Ms ... it shoots at higher ISOs than the M9, and seems to do it well ... film Ms have a top shutter speed of 1/1000 compared to 1/4000 and you cannot change the ISO from 400 to 10,000 in 2 seconds.

    Whether that fits one's desires, or is worth the money is a personal question no one else can answer.

    -Marc

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    Marc, I agree with all that you say.

    I guess for someone like myself, at the bottom of the food chain, it becomes
    Very important to decide if and whether ' b&w aesthetic ' offered by this digital
    Form of expression cannot be derived from the existing digital forms of expressive cameras.

    Maybe I am just trying to find an excuse to avoid buying this and it indeed is
    Better than I would expect it to be.

    Best regards.
    Well, with all the new items ravishing one's wallet, finances get to be a very serious part of the equation no matter what.

    I'm actually in the same place as you are, and wonder the same thing in terms of using what I have, and slogging onward with conversions.

    However, while the B&W thing is quite a draw, the higher ISO is even more so when comparing a M9 to this MM. If this camera topped out at ISO 1250 it would be an easy thing to just ignore it.

    -Marc
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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    I guess for someone like myself, at the bottom of the food chain, it becomes
    Very important to decide if and whether ' b&w aesthetic ' offered by this digital
    Form of expression cannot be derived from the existing digital forms of expressive cameras.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Well, with all the new items ravishing one's wallet, finances get to be a very serious part of the equation no matter what.

    I'm actually in the same place as you are, and wonder the same thing in terms of using what I have, and slogging onward with conversions.

    However, while the B&W thing is quite a draw, the higher ISO is even more so when comparing a M9 to this MM. If this camera topped out at ISO 1250 it would be an easy thing to just ignore it.

    -Marc
    This is exactly what I meant in another contentious thread talking about the "relevance" of a particular brand in present day photography.

    This exactly why I praised Steve Huff's writing on Leica.

    I guess the 50 AA Summicron is out of the equation?

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    ....

    I guess the 50 AA Summicron is out of the equation?
    For me, and for photographic purposes, it would appear so. For the time being
    anyway!

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Yeah, I am looking to see if I have any spare cash laying around along with a set of soft cotton gloves and a humidor.
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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Yeah, I am looking to see if I have any spare cash laying around along with a set of soft cotton gloves and a humidor.
    Humidor ....

    -Marc

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Too Funny. The last piece of image processing code that I used with a Monochrome Digital camera was a piece of code that I wrote in FORTRAN and assembly. Uncompressed RAW image file formats are straight-forward to figure out and to work with. Want it to look a certain way, just write some code. My wife had me do a lot of image processing algorithms for her monochrome microscope camera as well. Interesting "Honey-Do" list, usually involving Fourier transforms and scene segmentation.

    That's probably the driver for me to get this camera.

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I fear that the point of this camera is still being over-looked.

    It is dedicated to the B&W aesthetic, and happens to be digital. It makes no claim to supplant film as a medium of expression. It is its own form of expression.

    That Nik Silver Efex Pro-2 is supplied simply provides a powerful processing program also dedicated to the B&W aesthetic.

    Only part of Nik is designed to mimic the response of various film emulsions ... which is not mandatory to produce effective variations in B&W digital imagery. It's there IF you find that using one of the film types delivers what you want for any given lighting or creative scenario.

    Why you need Nik is like asking why one needs all the various tools and processing protocols for individual creative expression in the film darkroom.

    -Marc
    Hi Mark,

    While considering some of your statements (reproduced out of context above), two questions came to mind.

    What if the same scene was photographed simutaniously with both the M9 and M9M (same lens of course) at low and similar ISO. Exposure settings on each camera were set so the resulting respective RAW images from both cameras were set in order to obtain as similar a looking RAW file as possible when opened in the same RAW converter

    Now assuming we try adjusting these two files, so that each image looks as close to the other and then bring them into the same post processing softeware such as Photoshop.

    Understanding the look of the two resulting images will greatly depend on the lighting and tonality of the elements being photographed as well as many other image parameters....

    1. How close or different will these two images appear and what might be the differences?

    My second question is for me maybe the more important one and that is...

    2. Assuming there are moderatly significant differences seen, say in the tonality of each image, if an identical Nik preset is chosen to be applied to each image, will the resulting two images keep their repsective differences or somehow do the algorithms contained and used within a Nik preset, overide to a degree those differences when elmulating say a given film setting, and the two resulting images (after Nik), loose their individuality to a greater degree?

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Well, with all the new items ravishing one's wallet, finances get to be a very serious part of the equation no matter what.

    I'm actually in the same place as you are, and wonder the same thing in terms of using what I have, and slogging onward with conversions.

    However, while the B&W thing is quite a draw, the higher ISO is even more so when comparing a M9 to this MM. If this camera topped out at ISO 1250 it would be an easy thing to just ignore it.

    -Marc
    Same considerations from my side! I actually am pretty sure that for my needs (level of expected IQ) the M9 would do already more than enough WRT B&W.

    What I cannot get out of my head is the new 2/50 AA. Because this seems to be a really great step forward, also in consideration with an upcoming M10 and higher resolution. So this lens would make me again concentrate on the really important things in photography, while delivering the most natural angle of view at a hard to beat IQ, low weight and in combination with a hopefully better high ISO in the upcoming M10 make faster primes pretty much less important.

    Not sure if I can resist this new Summicron

    Pretty sure I can resist the M9M

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    My second question is for me maybe the more important one and that is...

    2. Assuming there are moderatly significant differences seen, say in the tonality of each image, if an identical Nik preset is chosen to be applied to each image, will the resulting two images keep their repsective differences or somehow do the algorithms contained and used within a Nik preset, overide to a degree those differences when elmulating say a given film setting, and the two resulting images (after Nik), loose their individuality to a greater degree?

    Dave (D&A)
    Not Marc and would be interested in his take but here is mine...after running a number of different present film emulsion settings on one Monochrom file and striving to keep everything the same there is a change in how that file looked.

    However, having used SE Pro 2 and its predecessor to handle many color files I have the sense that the tonal aspects of the film presets will have a major difference when presented a DNG file that contains color information as the various film presets react to colors in a similar way that their namesake films did. Without that information there are characteristic contrast curve and grain settings that will come into play but not the color response. So when I ran all of the settings it was to see just how different these looked and while there are subtle variations... they do not approach those seen with color files.

    Marc has made the very important distinction that the beauty of SE Pro 2 for the MM is that there are many curve, grain and local contrast elements one can evoke in the development of the file...irrespective of the film presets. The additional toning with Platinum, Coffee, Paladium, Selenium and Duo tones offers some additional value. However, the idea that you accept a canned JPG profile in camera seems a bit simplistic, considering the core groups assumed sophistication.

    Essentially I think it is a valuable addition but would love to see it further enhanced with a series of settings like those found in Color Efex and Viveza 2 in addition to Sharpener Pro 3...albeit for BW.

    Bob

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Regarding the question of how similar an image will come out taken by an M9 and M9M: it is scene dependant. The worst case, moire. The image from the M9 color will have artifacts introduced by the Mosaic filter. These will carry over into the converted monochrome image. The M9M will not have these artifacts in them. The 2x2 bayer pattern mosaic filter has 36LP/mm resolution. The KAF-18500 has 72LP/mm resolution. Basically, any feature in the color image that requires more than 36LP/mm to resolve might introduce artifacts into the converted image that will not be present in the M9M image.

    If you used a run of the mill Jupiter-3 wide-open to photograph both scenes, chances are both images will be the same as max resolution at F1.5 is 30LP/mm. Stop down to F4- resolution increases and differences will be introduced.

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post

    What I cannot get out of my head is the new 2/50 AA. Because this seems to be a really great step forward...
    After spending some 14 months with the 70 S lens on the S2 I have to agree...

    It is amazing what information can be captured and just how these lenses draw especially with respect to those subtle, fine details which our senses use to define reality within the organic cohesiveness in light, texture and space. Without an AA filter and assuming all else in the chain of capture is above reproach....

    The S lenses, and I assume the new 50AA, give such a sense of hyper-reality to images ... needs to be seen to appreciate how much a difference this makes.

    Bob

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    After spending some 14 months with the 70 S lens on the S2 I have to agree...

    It is amazing what information can be captured and just how these lenses draw especially with respect to those subtle, fine details which our senses use to define reality within the organic cohesiveness in light, texture and space. Without an AA filter and assuming all else in the chain of capture is above reproach....

    The S lenses, and I assume the new 50AA, give such a sense of hyper-reality to images ... needs to be seen to appreciate how much a difference this makes.

    Bob
    Hi Bob,

    Serious question-

    Where can one see these subtleties and beauty as expressed in an image (digital post, print, etc)?

    TIA!

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Vivek,

    The following shows it a bit ... really need to see the prints.

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/384770-post1328.html

    Not BW however....I shot this about 30 minutes prior to daylight and the level of definition and lack of CA in the tree branches is revealing to me.
    Most of all was the subtle shift of tones near and through the mist amongst the trees.

    Not to say only Leica...many apo teles and surely most of my Rodenstock and Schneider lenses on Alpa had similar characteristics. Those required a bit more
    setup and were not in as compact of a package as the 50AA will be. Hope it lives up to the other Karbe lenses....

    Run the Show Us Your S2 Shots thread...there are some great examples within it.

    Back to topic?

    Bob

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    Not Marc and would be interested in his take but here is mine...after running a number of different present film emulsion settings on one Monochrom file and striving to keep everything the same there is a change in how that file looked.

    However, having used SE Pro 2 and its predecessor to handle many color files I have the sense that the tonal aspects of the film presets will have a major difference when presented a DNG file that contains color information as the various film presets react to colors in a similar way that their namesake films did. Without that information there are characteristic contrast curve and grain settings that will come into play but not the color response. So when I ran all of the settings it was to see just how different these looked and while there are subtle variations... they do not approach those seen with color files.

    Marc has made the very important distinction that the beauty of SE Pro 2 for the MM is that there are many curve, grain and local contrast elements one can evoke in the development of the file...irrespective of the film presets. The additional toning with Platinum, Coffee, Paladium, Selenium and Duo tones offers some additional value. However, the idea that you accept a canned JPG profile in camera seems a bit simplistic, considering the core groups assumed sophistication.

    Essentially I think it is a valuable addition but would love to see it further enhanced with a series of settings like those found in Color Efex and Viveza 2 in addition to Sharpener Pro 3...albeit for BW.

    Bob
    Thanks, quite interesting. I've been trying on my end to answer the same questions I posed to Marc (and yourself & others) in my post above.

    It may not have been economically feasible, but I wonder "what if" Leica had Nik work on a special version of Nikon Sliver Efex that was only for use with and dedicated to M9M B&W files. It would be specifically written for and be able to take advantage of the unique properties of files from the M9M camera and thus color files converted to B&W with Nik vs. similar subject B&W files from the M9M processed through Nik, would show more of a difference than both using the same standard Nik Silver Efx program?

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    After spending some 14 months with the 70 S lens on the S2 I have to agree...

    It is amazing what information can be captured and just how these lenses draw especially with respect to those subtle, fine details which our senses use to define reality within the organic cohesiveness in light, texture and space. Without an AA filter and assuming all else in the chain of capture is above reproach....

    The S lenses, and I assume the new 50AA, give such a sense of hyper-reality to images ... needs to be seen to appreciate how much a difference this makes.

    Bob
    Question: I realize there are of course developmental costs, but since the M lens user base is substantially larger than the S2 user base, along with S lenses being more sophisticated with AF, internal chip, large glass etc., I wondered why the new 50mm AA is generally speaking, so much more expensive than some of the S2 lenses. One maybe can argue that getting to this level of performance in a small rangefinder lens, is more expensive? Hard to know.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    "what if" Leica had Nik work on a special version of Nikon Sliver Efex that was only for use with and dedicated to M9M B&W files.
    I did read that they had to create/agree on a new monochrome DNG file that will work for MM and perhaps other cameras in the future? So, if the SE software process on that new file format, then it's similar to what you suggested?
    David Young
    My journey into Leica: LeicaLux.com

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosermage View Post
    I did read that they had to create/agree on a new monochrome DNG file that will work for MM and perhaps other cameras in the future? So, if the SE software process on that new file format, then it's similar to what you suggested?
    Interesting, thanks David. I did know about the new momochrome DNG, but didn't know as to whether Nik had to be modified in some way to work to ultinately work on these files. Even if so, it still hard to know if Nik's processing of a given file (with a specific Nik setting) is somehow different with the M9M files vs. the standard M9?

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    What I cannot get out of my head is the new 2/50 AA.
    Hi Peter
    I assure you - if you've had one on your camera . . . even for an hour . . . it's even worse - it haunts my dreams!

    Just this guy you know

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