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On the Subject of Thick Skin

KurtKamka

Subscriber Member
I put this thread squarely in the Leica forum because I'm certain that most Leica users have spent their share of time justifying their gear choices to themselves and all-knowing perfect strangers willing to take a shot at their gear choices.

Most of the time, however, the gear choice rationale seems much easier to summon than the defense of one's own style. I don't know about anyone else, but I can tune out a hundred nice shot opinions. Utter a dissenting critique/common, and that's the one I remember. Perhaps it's human nature or even a predisposition to earnestly evaluate all relevant criticism.

We've all discovered that people are certainly willing to express their negative opinions in the age of the internet ... and with ferocity.

My question is: Are the great photographers the ones with the thickest skins? Do they have an inherent ability to find relevance by ignoring nonconstructive criticism to emerge like fiery phoenixes with their shiny own visions?

It seems that the more people that embrace photography, the more it has become a spectator sport where gangs of new wave 'traditionalists' and leather-helmeted old schoolers are trying to dictate the rules of the game. Shoot with short lenses they say, shoot with film, shoot at f8 or higher, carry small lenses, and on and on. Only the brave are willing to color outside of the lines.

As I get older, I'm finding that I'm beginning to worry less about what anybody else tells me is the 'right' approach. I simply try to use what is in my camera bag to find the connection I'm looking for. And for me and my gradually thickening skin, I'm finding that's good enough.
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Kurt,

I can't speak for photographers, but in my experience, being great (whatever that means in each endeavor or profession) is frequently accompanied by a monomania that doesn't recognize the opinions of others, or sometimes even their existence. There are exceptions, and they tend to be nicer people to be around, and they frequently lead somewhat tortured lives. You really don't want to get too close the the former type, though. Those who do tend to sacrifice their own lives to the talent (and ego) nearby.

I am speaking here not of the top 1%, but of the "1 or 2 a generation" type great.

But back to mortals, I applaud you in your thick skin development. From my interested beginner standpoint, there are photographers whose work I see and think "I could do that with a lot of practice and some luck." And there are those that make me think "never in a million years". Yours is in the latter camp. It's a bit of a problem, as I'd like to find reasons to get an S2, but if the results are too obviously the photographer's skill, it argues against the equipment. ;)

Best,

Matt
 

Markus Dagnell

New member
Hi Kurt,

I´ll start of saying that I admire the work you present at your blog! Great presences and connection to the people that you shoot.

Does a great photographer need thick skin? I think that any artist needs a certain amount of self confidence and driving force/motivation to be able to produce great work. Driving force/motivation can be of different kind for example joy, excitement, fear of failure, pressure from expectations (yours or others) etc. Depending on personality people will handle the situation differently. Some produce better under pressure others don´t. Reaching out of one´s comfort zone is where development is happening (in my opinion).
There are many great shoots on your blog where I know that I myself would hesitate.
People that criticize a picture usually think that they could´ve done it better and don´t take into account the circumstances around it. Another thing with internet forums is that many expressing criticism don´t show any portfolio or even who they are.

I noticed with my self that depending on who´s giving the criticism I react differently. If someone with great knowledge gives me some contructive advise I´ll happily receive it.

The goal for me is to be able to in my head visualize the final outcome on paper when shooting at a particular moment (staged or spontaneous). Sometimes I get there most times not:).

Best Markus
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Interesting topic. Not sure I qualify today since I don't shoot Leica at the moment but not sure this is just a Leica thing anyway but I take a stab at it. First you all know who I am pretty much so won't get into the background stuff it actually bugs me the constant resume comments but I will say being on the forums for many years and being a Pro. Plus being a forum owner I get looked at with a crooked eye sometimes on what I post. Truthfully many times I never even get a comment good, bad or indifferent . Which is fine it really is not meant to be a show off thing but for me a teaching aid. For me at least I do not take my works critism as a negative as many times what I shoot is customer driven anyway. I really think the answer with critism is do not take it personally at all but as a learning tool but you also need to tune out certain comments as well. It's not so much the source of those comments it's how they are relayed back to your brain. Much of this is self confidence in yourself as well and your understanding of what your trying to accomplish as the artist. No one can tell you what's in your head when your out shooting its the expression of yourself and it really can't be critiqued in a way because your going by feelings and your reaction to a scene. Sure moving over ten feet comments will maybe help you think about the next you are out there and maybe see your composition better. Stuff like that is information to learn from.

Now having said that there are also comments made from folks that don't have real shooting ability and are jealous. Yes I have been around the block and have seen that countless times. Those you just simply need to ignore but first recognize as such too. As a instructor myself I'm always learning too and I'm also always sharing. I think for one to be good at photography one also needs a wide open view of the world and not close off any idea. This stuff comes down to you and your personality and that maybe something internally you need to work on. But here is some advice I can give listen, filter and apply. No one is right and no one is wrong it's just a filtering mechanism you need to learn.

But as a shooter for many many years you need to understand you are still learning, filtering and fine tuning not only your art but yourself. It's all about how you think, react and execute what's in your head and sure your abilities as well. Also as a instructor I see this very often people get ideas also on what you are saying or pick up tidbits along the way. I can tell everyone this from a instructor perspective we always have repeat folks join us and over time it is so gratifying to watch them learn , absorb, grow and execute so much better than they did than on there first workshop. Bottom line here your always growing, your always learning and your photographer will never have a ending of learning. Learn from comments and learn from mistakes and always keep pushing yourself to keep training your eye and your vision. This is ART there are no rules.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
iPad typos sorry and need another espresso. Btw you don't have to engage on justifying your gear. End of day they are tools not you.

I'm going to add this on tools. Your vision changes in time but also sometimes that will relate to changing your tools as well to accomplish what your vision sees. Many of us change tools often ( guilty as charged) but you need to remember your vision does change or you after something you can get better with a diffrent tool in hand. So one day you may shoot wide open for a period and than you vision changes and sometimes that may require a gear change. There is absolutely no shame in whatever lens or cam you are using as long as it gets you what your after nothing else matters, name , type, fast/slow wide/long who cares as long as you execute and are happy with what you got.
 

MCTuomey

New member
Interesting topic, thanks for starting it, Kurt.

Re criticism, I know I consider the source of criticism or praise, then respond commensurate with the source's credibility.

Re equipment, whatever very modest ability I may have, I do try to reconcile it to gear choices. And also try to simplify gear as much as I can (have a ways to go), believing it's better to operate a few tools often and well than many tools infrequently and less effectively.
 

atanabe

Member
Kurt,
The Internet is the most hostile of environments that exist today. People can hide behind screen names and lash out for no good reason, saying things that they would never utter face to face. While they are just words and not fists they can hurt just as bad and the wounds can run deeper. Posting images, opinions or ideas can be shot down by sarcastic and caustic posters without any constructive thing to say. A thick skin is a necessary accessory if you post. I host a monthly gathering of Leica shooters here in Seattle (SLUG) where we gather to critique images and share ideas. You may want to find out if there is a like minded group where you are and do the same. It provides a good interaction between artist and viewer and I think has benifited many of our members to grow and refine their style.

My thoughts on Leica and the Internet:
Some feel the need to lash out at anything "expensive" that they do not have just because they are ?unhappy with their own life?. Leicas are an easy target as the demographics have always (at least as far back as I can remember) skewed to the Drs and Lawyer crowd. I am not a Dr nor a lawyer but I do own Leicas. Why? Because I enjoy photography, used to do this for a living, I marvel at the image quality (always have) and can finally afford them. Do I shoot pictures of my cat and family with it, yes and they are the best cat pictures that I have ever taken :ROTFL:.

Maybe the next time you post, change the Exif data to read
Camera model: Camera
because in the end the photographer frames the image and presses the shutter.
-Al
 

dave.gt

Well-known member
I put this thread squarely in the Leica forum because I'm certain that most Leica users have spent their share of time justifying their gear choices to themselves and all-knowing perfect strangers willing to take a shot at their gear choices.

Most of the time, however, the gear choice rationale seems much easier to summon than the defense of one's own style. I don't know about anyone else, but I can tune out a hundred nice shot opinions. Utter a dissenting critique/common, and that's the one I remember. Perhaps it's human nature or even a predisposition to earnestly evaluate all relevant criticism.

We've all discovered that people are certainly willing to express their negative opinions in the age of the internet ... and with ferocity.

My question is: Are the great photographers the ones with the thickest skins? Do they have an inherent ability to find relevance by ignoring nonconstructive criticism to emerge like fiery phoenixes with their shiny own visions?

It seems that the more people that embrace photography, the more it has become a spectator sport where gangs of new wave 'traditionalists' and leather-helmeted old schoolers are trying to dictate the rules of the game. Shoot with short lenses they say, shoot with film, shoot at f8 or higher, carry small lenses, and on and on. Only the brave are willing to color outside of the lines.

As I get older, I'm finding that I'm beginning to worry less about what anybody else tells me is the 'right' approach. I simply try to use what is in my camera bag to find the connection I'm looking for. And for me and my gradually thickening skin, I'm finding that's good enough.
Hi, Kurt...

As a long time member on another Leica forum(s), I understand your posting. Also, as a now-retired social reject :p , I understand the getting older part.

It is simple for me. First, IMO, one needs to be their own person. Secondly, I have never seen anything like it where some forum posters bash Leica and call them idiots, rich snobs, stupid people and all manners of things. People spend their money on bicycles, dogs, shotguns, automobiles, and all kinds of things that cost much more but they are never bashed for it. So, I can only surmise that it is the old social warfare between the haves and the have-nots where a line (dollar amount or otherwise) has been drawn and the have-nots, being the passionate chaps they are, cannot get over that line so emotions bring out the worst in them.

Being a have-not myself, I don't subscribe to this egocentric behavior. I do my own thing, to quote an old line, but it is what makes me happy.

Nor do I condone someone telling someone else that they know the only true way of photographing something.

YMMV, but that is my opinion. If you try to please them, then you have done a great disservice to yourself. So, I don't. :thumbup: No need to "develop a thick skin"... , I just don't concern myself with others' opinions.
 

chrism

Well-known member
In terms of photography, I'm an amateur and tend to take criticism quite seriously. Perhaps I lack the confidence that I really know what I'm doing, even though it is forty years since I first developed a film. But it is worth remembering that the anonymity of the internet brings out the worst in some. About once or twice a year I browse the reviews of my colleagues on ratemds.com and the vitriol spewed out against good guys that I would be honoured to have treat me is quite breathtaking. That tells me that a pinch of salt, or maybe three, is needed when assessing some of these criticisms.

Chris
 

Shashin

Well-known member
It seems that the more people that embrace photography, the more it has become a spectator sport where gangs of new wave 'traditionalists' and leather-helmeted old schoolers are trying to dictate the rules of the game. Shoot with short lenses they say, shoot with film, shoot at f8 or higher, carry small lenses, and on and on. Only the brave are willing to color outside of the lines.
That has always been the case. Check the amateur magazine scene in the sliver era of photography and the photo clubs.

I was reading the diaries of Thomas Merton and he commented on one religious gathering/conference he had attended. He said all the monks and priests of the different religions got along very, very well. It was only the lay practitioners that were at each other's throats.

All of the real artists I know are very confident in their work. This does not mean they don't think there is improvement that can be made in their work, but they are confident in what they do--criticism from the outside and toward the outside is irrelevant. They have become masters of their work.

And I mean, really, who cares if someone else photos have more resolving power than mine. Photography is not an object lesson in capturing detail. Folks can try to fault me for not having the best new toy on the market, but then I get "revenge" by simply being able to make better images then they can with "inferior" tools.

But that is also a problem with being able to talk about what is really important. The technical process (dogma, in the case of religion) is so much easier to express than what really give photography or any art it significance. Rules of composition are still dogma.

It is only with a few artists I can have a meaningful conversation about the art. And in most cases, I am preaching to the choir. The fun is sharing those amazing insights and experiences that we all seem to have. It is a pity there is no place on the internet that that kind of community could exist. It is tough, the further you get down the path of your art, the fewer people you find at that point along the way.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Kurt

Its my perspective that its very hard to improve without have a sense of purpose and getting constructive feedback. Your opportunity in Manilla gives you access to almost unlimited subject matter ..starting when you walk out the door . It is easy to see a body of work emerging and you have many stunning images . Stuff you didn t see in Milwaukee and your fresh eyes are reflected in your work.

Each year in Florida there is an event called Fotofusion held in Palm Beach . It is heavily attended by some of the greatest photographers anyplace but also but some of the best photo editors . Its my annual self check . I create a portfolio of about 30 prints and I schedule up to 10 portfolio reviews . One year I had three photographers that won the Pulitzer Prize review my street work as well as the Photo Editor of Sports Illustrated and one of the major agencies . The first time through ..my ears were burning . The editor of Rolling Stone told me I had 2 images that worked (out of 30) . The editor of sports illustrated asked that I not give up my day job.

But then the owner of one of the major agencies looked at my work ...and crossed everyone else off his schedule . He spent almost an full 60 minutes with me . I told him that I approached the work like a professional ...planned and thought out like an assignment for national geographic . He looked around at a dozen professionals in the room doing reviews .....he said everyone of those photographers wants to be you ...to be free to pursue your own vision . Then he asked me what I was trying to say with my work and helped me to see the images in that context .

My ego took a sever pounding going through those reviews but the one pearl of wisdom made it all worth it .
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Kurt

Its my perspective that its very hard to improve without have a sense of purpose and getting constructive feedback. Your opportunity in Manilla gives you access to almost unlimited subject matter ..starting when you walk out the door . It is easy to see a body of work emerging and you have many stunning images . Stuff you didn t see in Milwaukee and your fresh eyes are reflected in your work.
I really have difficulty in understanding folks not being able to use their gear in their own neighborhood and have to go to alien lands to feel unencumbered. :confused:

Does this have anything to do with Leica? I think not.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
I really have difficulty in understanding folks not being able to use their gear in their own neighborhood and have to go to alien lands to feel unencumbered. :confused:
Because the world is full of different people each with their own inspiration. It is as easy as that.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
I really have difficulty in understanding folks not being able to use their gear in their own neighborhood and have to go to alien lands to feel unencumbered. :confused:

Does this have anything to do with Leica? I think not.
Vivek

On the matter of Leica ....of course not. The Leica forum happens to be where Kurt posts his work and he feels at home here . Isn t that what we want ?

On the observation about where to shoot ..there are three dimensions .

One.. the receptivity of people to photographers . In much of America people are very distrustful of photographers and expect the very worst intentions . This makes much of the street photography as shown by Kurt impossible . In large events and public places you can shoot pretty much at will but even there you will often get a cold reception . I just got back from Cuba and there I could shoot at will.....people were very receptive and comfortable ...often happy that I choose them to photograph.

Two ...access to interesting people and places . Kurt is in a very large urban environment . The weather is warm and the population is poor financially ..this means everyday life takes place in the open . The ability to get to good target rich environments easily and on a repeated basis is the dream of any street photographer . Yes you can do this in many cities ..but I can t in Atlanta . I live in the suburbs and I can tell you from experience that street shooting in the city isn t recommended .

Three ....the excitement of experiencing sights and scenes for the first time . This doesn t mean that you can’t find good things to shoot almost anywhere ..but if you enjoy street photography then you really have to find a few good streets .

Has nothing to do with equipment. :clap::clap::clap:
 

dmeckert

New member
A brief response:

a) my mom doesn't get my work

b) I think rock n roll, particularly punk rock (even though I'm not a huge fan actually), has a great lesson for artists of all kinds. You have to believe in what you do like there's nothing else to believe in. You have to be able to listen to the legit criticism, and figure out if and how you're going to let it impact what you do. And for all the rest, and sometimes even good advice, you just have to say "f*** it", and just do you.

Thick skin good. Thick head bad.

Why do I shoot what I shoot, with the gear I use? Because I want to. (this currently includes fashion/editorial/beauty and model tests with Leica and a fuji 690)
 
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Vivek

Guest
Vivek

On the matter of Leica ....of course not. The Leica forum happens to be where Kurt posts his work and he feels at home here . Isn t that what we want ?

On the observation about where to shoot ..there are three dimensions .

One.. the receptivity of people to photographers . In much of America people are very distrustful of photographers and expect the very worst intentions . This makes much of the street photography as shown by Kurt impossible . In large events and public places you can shoot pretty much at will but even there you will often get a cold reception . I just got back from Cuba and there I could shoot at will.....people were very receptive and comfortable ...often happy that I choose them to photograph.

Two ...access to interesting people and places . Kurt is in a very large urban environment . The weather is warm and the population is poor financially ..this means everyday life takes place in the open . The ability to get to good target rich environments easily and on a repeated basis is the dream of any street photographer . Yes you can do this in many cities ..but I can t in Atlanta . I live in the suburbs and I can tell you from experience that street shooting in the city isn t recommended .

Three ....the excitement of experiencing sights and scenes for the first time . This doesn t mean that you can’t find good things to shoot almost anywhere ..but if you enjoy street photography then you really have to find a few good streets .

Has nothing to do with equipment. :clap::clap::clap:
Hi Roger,

The first aspect- who in the world can find out how people live/behave in Milwaukee or downtown Atlanta? Knowing fully the current realities (but not living it, I must add), isn't it a sad commentary on the "land of the free" (this isn't a political jibe, so please do not misunderstand me)?

If I can't not capture what I see around me (this happens all the time by the way)- if I can not capture a sliver of what is around me, what is the point?

All the "bad" streets can turn out to be the "best" streets if only working habits take a turn. Personal experience.

All this is thinking out loud and isn't meant as something directed against you or Kurt or anyone.

I have been to Barcelona a few times in the summer. Snapped a lot of (mostly) tourist faces. None of those images stuck me as something though I really love that city and its overwhelming history. I never could understand its complex dynamics (though I did get a feel for it and did not feel too out of place).

A couple of forum friends (hopefully if I manage my schedules right) would visit here (the Hague) sometime soon. Anyone into street shooting is welcome. I never am into shooting as a group and shooting pics of of each other in the group to get the feeling of "street shooting"(again, not meant as a criticism against anyone). All I can do is just walk around show where walk around all the time.

Yeah, nothing to do with gear though Kurt's original post seems to have things soliciting support from Leica owners. That is a pity, IMHO.
 
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Vivek

Guest
b) I think rock n roll, particularly punk rock (even though I'm not a huge fan actually), has a great lesson for artists of all kinds. You have to believe in what you do like there's nothing else to believe in. You have to be able to listen to the legit criticism, and figure out if and how you're going to let it impact what you do. And for all the rest, and sometimes even good advice, you just have to say "f*** it", and just do you.

Thick skin good. Thick head bad.
:thumbs:
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
It is a sad commentary that photography everyday life can have such negative and unhealthy perspectives in some parts of the world ...but it does . I have shot on many occasions with a few of the best PJ anywhere ...so I understand whats possible but I also am realistic about my own skills .

Really my observation for kurt ..was how great is it that he has landed in manilla and found a shooting environment that is both target rich and exciting . And one that he can easily travel to everyday .
 
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