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Thread: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by davemillier View Post
    Marc

    i find with my 50 year old eyes that I need to don reading glasses to see these things clearly ;-)

    Enthusiasts of the AA-less approach like to go on about sharpness and micro-contrast, the trouble is that in any sampled system you need to reduce MTF at Nyquist to suppress under-sampling artifacts, not increase it. Detail beyond Nyquist isn't detail, it's distortion. And the problem with distortion is that while sometimes it can fool the eye into seeing detail, other times what you see is horrible artifacts.

    The problem with aliasing in landscapes for me isn't so much the obvious aliasing (reviewers always look for colour moire, don't they) but the effect it has on the "feel" of the rendering of grass and foliage from the little mentioned luminance aliasing. The example below even softened by your treatment still has obvious artifacts but these are just the gross symptoms. What I see is a kind of localised patchiness in rendering, depending on the subject. Sometimes you get nice sharpness and detail, sometimes you get strange broken, confused tones that look a bit like noise, other times you get a fabricated texture eg hair detail that renders like a canvas weave in patches. It is all so variable and random. What I find with my NEX is that some subjects look clean and sharp while other (the details of a broadleaf forest in winter for example) look noisy and messy. It's difficult to describe in words but it's basically the effect of rendering small detail as a fractured tile pattern with sharp geometric edges, then overlaying it on other small detail rendered as a fractured tile pattern with sharp geometrical edges. When you shrink this down to typical print sizes, the result looks nasty, noisy, unnatural to me. Apparently many people perceive it merely as "crisp".

    Anyway, back to the easy stuff, a crop from your file:



    By the way, here's an example from DPreview tests of the NEX. Compare the smoothness of the Olympus rendering to that of the NEX 5 on the curves of the coin (You need to select the "original" link and click to expand to full size). Hideous isn't it?


    lum: DMillier: Galleries: Digital Photography Review
    Thanks.

    IMO, that is taking the art of pixel peeping to new heights ... the crop you resorted to that shows such artifacts represents such a massive enlargement, inspected at nose-on-print distances with magnifying readers, as to enter a realm requiring new terminology ... inspection at the atomic level. Any further, and we'll be needing Electron Microscopes.

    Sorry, but I do not see the practical effect on the print, including the areas you circled.

    That said, while I like this camera, I still do not think it equals the impression of detail one gets using a M6 and film with the same lens directly printed on silver print paper ... that has been the elusive aspect of digital from the start ... although, few analog images could with-stand these pixel-peeping exercises either.

    I also personally do not think these exercises line up very well with the intent of this camera.

    -Marc
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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    HI There
    You're doing splendid work here - I think we are all being enlightened both as to the nature of the file, and also the way to print it.
    Quote Originally Posted by wentbackward View Post
    Despite the problems, the image passed the 'wife' test today with a Wow, clearly that is all Jono's creative talent, not any technical aspect of the printer! Anyhow any image that makes her wow, would make someone else fall off their perch, so that's good!

    Personally at 100x70cm I expected the details to pop at close to the same level as a Medium Format image. The image surely has the detail to pop, but it didn't quite do it for me.

    I will print again with the adjusted settings, remount on better card, then post macro shots out of the glass.

    Quote Originally Posted by wentbackward View Post
    Lastly, Jono ... you have incredibly stable hands for 1/250th at 75mm it is astonishingly good!
    Thank you - My father always had really shaky hands - I think I'm very lucky, of course, it's partly technique, but coffee and alcohol don't seem to have much of an effect either. Long May It Last!

    all the best

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by davemillier View Post
    Anyway, back to the easy stuff, a crop from your file:


    Nope, Sorry David - I can't get worked up about this - even at 100% on my big screen with reading glasses and 2 ft away. If you say it has a 'feel' on even small prints, I can't contradict you but then of course we are in the realms of subjective, rather than objective observation, and would need to standardise on printer / paper / software etc. etc.

    What I think this thread has clearly demonstrated is that the default sharpening and base level clarity in Lightroom is too much for these files - Marc and wentbackward seem to have done a grand job here. It also suggests to me that the files really haven't had any processing done on them in LR.

    All the best

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    I think David owes a thanks for bring this up to evoke the responses from wentbackward and fotografz.

    The file looks amazing!

    There are possibilities that a polarizer would help to mitigate the extra stuff on the bicycle and the foliage and such but that is something to do with light and photography in general (film, digital, whatever) than the MM.

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Marc, Jono

    Just to be clear, are you saying that (on screen at least, I haven't printed this image), that the areas I have circled don't jump out at you instantly as horribly jagged zig zag lines?

    To my eyes, those branches, vines or whatever they are, that should render as smooth tubes, look like twisted fibres or rope because of the aliasing.

    This is the problem I see with Foveon based cameras which have no AA filter. Any fine lines at the right (wrong?) angle reproduce as a jagged line or look like twisted rope. As you (should!) be able to see here...

    (I appreciate that the Leica files have more resolution than the Sigmas, so the question of scale comes into it).

    Did you look at the NEX 5 files from DPreview I linked to as a clearer demonstration of the problem? What did you think of those?




    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Nope, Sorry David - I can't get worked up about this - even at 100% on my big screen with reading glasses and 2 ft away. If you say it has a 'feel' on even small prints, I can't contradict you but then of course we are in the realms of subjective, rather than objective observation, and would need to standardise on printer / paper / software etc. etc.

    What I think this thread has clearly demonstrated is that the default sharpening and base level clarity in Lightroom is too much for these files - Marc and wentbackward seem to have done a grand job here. It also suggests to me that the files really haven't had any processing done on them in LR.

    All the best

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I think David owes a thanks for bring this up to evoke the responses from wentbackward and fotografz.
    hi Vivek
    Thanks for pointing that out.

    Absolutely. I quite agree. I think it's generated a really useful discussion and given us all a better understanding of the files. Worth mentioning that David and I go way back to the early days of dPreview, and he has always been meticulous (and a good guy)

    Thank you David

    I think that it IS a matter of scale, and that at this level you have a straigthforward choice. Either some jagged or some blurred detail via an AA filter (whether that be hard or software based). I can't see an alternative

    However, backing off the clarity, and zeroing the input sharpening certainly reduces the problem significantly.

    All the best

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    ...However, backing off the clarity, and zeroing the input sharpening certainly reduces the problem significantly...
    Yes, good point Jono, the clarity slider will also introduce jaggies.

    It seems there are a few people interested in this stuff so I'll blab on a bit if that's ok. Positive clarity values can be emulated in photoshop using an unsharp mask with settings of between 30-75% and adjusting the radius slider up and down. So in effect it is also a form of sharpening, or generalised as local contrast adjustments. Understanding this as local contrast (i.e. the contrast between a few pixels), you can begin to imagine how one might cause aliasing to occur. Indeed these techniques are also used in the darkroom or built right into film chemistry.

    Sharpness is a bit of a tech-fest and it's easy to get bogged down in it. The mind/eye system is amazing and one picture with a few sharp details allows humans to perceive the whole image as sharp. It's why I love watercolours so much and also a good reason why the leaves don't matter so much in this image (for most viewers). Of course some will want Gursky sharp details with your nose pressed against the glass. I have to admit it's wonderful exploring large prints and seeing all the small details. It's my dream to see a real large Gursky.

    Paul
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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    HI Paul
    I guess I'd realised that Clarity was another form of sharpening - I think one should pass an exam in restraint before using it (especially with the MM).

    Thank you so much for your contribution to the thread - I think most of us have learned something (I know I have).

    all the best

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    According to a blog article I was reading the other day, LR4 clarity slider is much changed from previous versions. It is supposed to be "adaptive" now and will permit much higher values without the distortions of earlier LR versions.

    There is also a trick that LR does when sharpening, you might find useful. If you hold down the alt key while hovering over the mask slider, you get a visual indication of exactly where sharpening is being applied and not applied throughout the image. Here's the explanation: Lightroom Tips - Visual Sharpening Mask


    Quote Originally Posted by wentbackward View Post
    Yes, good point Jono, the clarity slider will also introduce jaggies.

    It seems there are a few people interested in this stuff so I'll blab on a bit if that's ok. Positive clarity values can be emulated in photoshop using an unsharp mask with settings of between 30-75% and adjusting the radius slider up and down. So in effect it is also a form of sharpening, or generalised as local contrast adjustments. Understanding this as local contrast (i.e. the contrast between a few pixels), you can begin to imagine how one might cause aliasing to occur. Indeed these techniques are also used in the darkroom or built right into film chemistry.

    Sharpness is a bit of a tech-fest and it's easy to get bogged down in it. The mind/eye system is amazing and one picture with a few sharp details allows humans to perceive the whole image as sharp. It's why I love watercolours so much and also a good reason why the leaves don't matter so much in this image (for most viewers). Of course some will want Gursky sharp details with your nose pressed against the glass. I have to admit it's wonderful exploring large prints and seeing all the small details. It's my dream to see a real large Gursky.

    Paul

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Hi Dave, Useful tip on the sharpening!

    I can concur, the clarity slider is definitely more complex than I described and many people hate the new Algo. LR for me just seems to do everything wrong. Clearly this is a familiarity issue on my part as are problems with the new algo for many people (I can't get to grips with the old or new one). At least the manual approach in PS is what it is, a bit crummy, but reliable (I used to be able to do a USM using layers but forget how now, it took me a long time to trust the USM wouldn't be changed suddenly) Old habits do die hard but hopefully a little nuts'n'bolts understanding is helpful.

    There are some cool edge detection and filtering algo's out there, I'm sure things will improve immensely for large format printers, over the coming years. Sandy McGuffog always has useful knowledge on his blog about how digital works.

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by wentbackward View Post
    Hi Dave, Useful tip on the sharpening!
    Thanks from here as well
    Quote Originally Posted by wentbackward View Post
    I can concur, the clarity slider is definitely more complex than I described and many people hate the new Algo. LR for me just seems to do everything wrong. Clearly this is a familiarity issue on my part as are problems with the new algo for many people (I can't get to grips with the old or new one). At least the manual approach in PS is what it is, a bit crummy, but reliable (I used to be able to do a USM using layers but forget how now, it took me a long time to trust the USM wouldn't be changed suddenly) Old habits do die hard but hopefully a little nuts'n'bolts understanding is helpful.

    There are some cool edge detection and filtering algo's out there, I'm sure things will improve immensely for large format printers, over the coming years. Sandy McGuffog always has useful knowledge on his blog about how digital works.
    I really dislike Lightroom - I've been using it for 5 months now, and I thought that familiarity would breed a little more satisfaction, but it just breeds contempt. The processing seems to me to be brutal unless you spend hours setting up presets - the brushes without edge detection are worthless, the clone tool is still useless. Personally, I suspect that these are intentional limitations to force you to get PS as well.

    The one advantage it had over Aperture was that it was quite a bit faster . . . that advantage has been taken away with LR4.

    I just can't wait for Apple to get support for the MM in Aperture, then I'll be back to my normal workflow with a sensible editor.

    BAH!

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    I think it is what you are used to a lot of the time.

    I used to use Bibble and didn't think much of lightroom when it first came out. But it has improved and improved and I don't use any other software at all now. LR has reduced me from something like a 20 pieces of software for imaging to one piece of software.

    I'm in the process of converting my website from hand coded html to Wordpress cms and one of the things I have to do is re-create my galleries from scratch. My old workflow consisted of a chain of applications and it used to take an hour or so to produce a new gallery. I did 6 last night in 30 mins all done entirely within LR...

    I am constantly amazed at how good it is as I learn new things and new tricks. I do still have Bibble and Capture one V4 as well as a bunch of free raw converters but I would never contemplate using anything else now (or any camera that wasn't supported).

    LR4 is a bit different in the dev tab and I am having to re-learn how to process as the old instincts no longer work.

    Maybe people also have different experiences on different platforms? I don't know how close the windows and mac versions are.



    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Thanks from here as well


    I really dislike Lightroom - I've been using it for 5 months now, and I thought that familiarity would breed a little more satisfaction, but it just breeds contempt. The processing seems to me to be brutal unless you spend hours setting up presets - the brushes without edge detection are worthless, the clone tool is still useless. Personally, I suspect that these are intentional limitations to force you to get PS as well.

    The one advantage it had over Aperture was that it was quite a bit faster . . . that advantage has been taken away with LR4.

    I just can't wait for Apple to get support for the MM in Aperture, then I'll be back to my normal workflow with a sensible editor.

    BAH!

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by davemillier View Post
    I think it is what you are used to a lot of the time.

    I used to use Bibble and didn't think much of lightroom when it first came out. But it has improved and improved and I don't use any other software at all now. LR has reduced me from something like a 20 pieces of software for imaging to one piece of software.

    I'm in the process of converting my website from hand coded html to Wordpress cms and one of the things I have to do is re-create my galleries from scratch. My old workflow consisted of a chain of applications and it used to take an hour or so to produce a new gallery. I did 6 last night in 30 mins all done entirely within LR...

    I am constantly amazed at how good it is as I learn new things and new tricks. I do still have Bibble and Capture one V4 as well as a bunch of free raw converters but I would never contemplate using anything else now (or any camera that wasn't supported).

    LR4 is a bit different in the dev tab and I am having to re-learn how to process as the old instincts no longer work.

    Maybe people also have different experiences on different platforms? I don't know how close the windows and mac versions are.
    Hi David
    I understand your point - but I know Lightroom pretty well . . . and, as I say, I've been using it several hours a day all this year - I've undergone all the workflow changes you mention over the last few years but with Aperture , so that LR doesn't hold out any new options with respect to DAM features - it just provides notably less good localised adjustment tools (both in terms of brushes and healing/cloning), less good cataloguing tools, and (I think) less good printing than Aperture. It used to be faster, but no more. It's much better at noise reduction . . . .but I use NIK on the rare occasions I need it (which is better than both).

    So - it's not a case of 'what I'm used to'. Lightroom and Aperture as DAM products can be made to do the same job - whereas nothing else really handles that side as well.

    I was really considering a final move to LR4, because of their better camera support, and because I needed to use it for the new Leica cameras - so the truth is that 'used to it' has made it less rather than more attractive.

    Of course, I realise this is subjective stuff (at least, some of it is), I also realise that for windows users LR is the only show in town - I still don't like it though!

    all the best

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    I've never used Aperture (or indeed a Mac, apart from some testing one occasion) so I can't do that comparison. And I agree the 2012 process in LR4 is slower. It does speed up if you go back to the 2011 process.

    I can't say I've noticed any particular failings of the local adjustment tools but i don't use them that much. I do like the gradient tool though. Bibble 4 has supposedly fancier local adjustments but I could never get them to work particularly well and being limited to a max of 8 cloning regions per image is a bit of a problem for spotting dust...

    One think I can say for sure as an occasional Ubuntu user, is that Lightroom is an awful lot better than Darktable...





    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi David
    I understand your point - but I know Lightroom pretty well . . . and, as I say, I've been using it several hours a day all this year - I've undergone all the workflow changes you mention over the last few years but with Aperture , so that LR doesn't hold out any new options with respect to DAM features - it just provides notably less good localised adjustment tools (both in terms of brushes and healing/cloning), less good cataloguing tools, and (I think) less good printing than Aperture. It used to be faster, but no more. It's much better at noise reduction . . . .but I use NIK on the rare occasions I need it (which is better than both).

    So - it's not a case of 'what I'm used to'. Lightroom and Aperture as DAM products can be made to do the same job - whereas nothing else really handles that side as well.

    I was really considering a final move to LR4, because of their better camera support, and because I needed to use it for the new Leica cameras - so the truth is that 'used to it' has made it less rather than more attractive.

    Of course, I realise this is subjective stuff (at least, some of it is), I also realise that for windows users LR is the only show in town - I still don't like it though!

    all the best

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by davemillier View Post
    I

    I can't say I've noticed any particular failings of the local adjustment tools but i don't use them that much. I do like the gradient tool though. Bibble 4 has supposedly fancier local adjustments but I could never get them to work particularly well and being limited to a max of 8 cloning regions per image is a bit of a problem for spotting dust...
    Yes, but I think that's the point - if the local adjustments in LR were any good, then you might use them (as they are in Aperture!).

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Ok, back on the printing again, it's Sunday morning and the kids are off to a birthday party sans-photographer I haven't yet printed, but here's the modified process (simplified somewhat). There are some learnings worth splitting this into a few comments.

    1. Turn off all sharpening and clarity adjustments. RAW-> TIF (600dpi). Note: If you're using SilverEfex, you MUST do this before you do your editing.

    2. I did do some capture sharpening: Nik RAW sharpening (25%), it is so light I wonder if it's really worth the risk of affecting the whole pipeline.

    3. Noise Control - I gave up! This is a really serious point for B&W enthusiasts. The grain on the MM is so silver like, it's really like working with a scan. After upsizing the image numerous times, the shadows were showing a corser grain (in the shadows) that is very much like scanning silver at 4800dpi. And just like B&W film, I reckon the whole file looks like noise to things like Nik Define or Noise Ninja. I tried and tried but even at the lowest settings with very careful selection of what I wanted to target, both peices of software turned the images to total mush. In the end with film I simply leave the grain in as almost any form for digital processing looks fake in comparison to actually seeing it. In a morning I have come to the same conclusion with the MM files (at least base ISO file). The grain is lovely, leave it alone. Note: this is completely subjective, personal preference. fwiw, it seems to me that gursky leaves the grain alone on his images.

    3. Sizing. You must do this in two steps:
    3a. Crop image to appropriate dimensions (in my example it is 10:7 - Sorry this is all at my own expense so it's an IKEA frame, anyone who has bought an IKEA bed or light will know they have their own standards)
    3b. Calculate image size less the matte (if any) as you'll need to resize the canvas prior to printing. Now resize/resample the image.

    Note for epson users: I'm using 600dpi for Canon. Adjust the above to be 720dpi for Epson.

    Note for all users: Work at the full 'finest' resolution your printer driver demands. The files are HUGE but the process is mechanical. Make notes and delete those files. Don't try to view these 600/720dpi files in LR!!

    The remainder of work for me today is output sharpening, final proofing + levels or curves in PS then print (from PS) using my own custom profile. The print will be mounted & dried, laminated with matte texture and mounted in the IKEA frame under glass (because they glued the bloody glass in otherwise I'd laminate glossy and have no glass).

    Here are some crops along the way (I felt the image looked too much like a sketch so I've increased the tonality and darkened down somewhat from my original posts).

    Also note that the PNG's displayed here have darker blacks and are more Jaggy than the 1GB TIF I am working with.

    600x600 crop of the image prior to hitting the printing pipeline:


    more to come..
    Last edited by wentbackward; 26th May 2012 at 21:05. Reason: speeling

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    ok, I was very reluctant to post these before, but I think they will be useful. So here's some help if you are not sure what you are looking at:

    - These are 100% crops of an image enlarged by a ratio of over 27:1 (that is the printed image will be 27 times larger than the negative/sensor)
    - In addition they will appear on paper about 3 times smaller than you will view them on your screen, as the printer resolution is much finer than your display
    - They will be much finer and smoother in print
    - These are PNG conversions, as such they blacks are blacker and the highlights look much more blown than they will appear in print (or indeed when looking at the TIF)
    - They have not been sharpened for output yet
    - They have not been corrected using levels/curves

    The purpose of looking here is to full appreciate the full tonality of the print, low level acutance and to look for any problems that might occur. All I see a fine smooth tonal renderings of the details in the print.

    I can tell you these crops are beautiful. Painterly, lovely tonality, lovely separation in the leaves especially. Look at the tree trunk, it's like an artists brush has touched it.

    Also look at the noise/grain. The final output sharpening is going to make some of the grain pop out, the downside of making the details pop. I think seeing the fine details will be more rewarding, the final grain will not be distracting, perhaps even subconsciously pleasing, as our eyes see this way in low light.



    Above: could there be some light chroma smearing in the ACR algos, I wouldn't expect it on a luminance only RAW? Or lens abberations (I doubt for this lens)?





    Above, can still see some slight jaggedness, but once printing will reduce considerably.



    First image and above: Amazing how sharp those curves are. If this were 100% native resolution image I'd say oversharpened, fix it. It must surely be perfect resize algos at work. As this is for printing then deleting (not archival), it should be fine. Nik's output sharpening (which I will use) is adaptive and should not damage this further.




    The girls shoulder is definitely blown as are a few other details but there is a lot more tonality in the original than the damage done by the dithering algo conversion to PNG here.




    Again remember these are all from an image file which is now > 1GB and 22677  15591 in size. They will all appear 3 times smaller in print than on your screen.
    Last edited by wentbackward; 26th May 2012 at 21:53.

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    [QUOTE=davemillier;420007]Once again thanks to Jono for providing this.

    Am I the only person in the world who finds luminance aliasing horrible? Surely, I can't be! I have issues with my Foveon cameras because of this, I have issues with the NEX series which makes them impossible for me to use. The Leica is not on my radar because of price but even if it cost 100, there is no way I could live with the aliasing.

    I feel exactly like you.
    The most i can enlarge my M9 pictures is 200%, but 100% still is much better.
    I am sure there are ways to " dissolve " this aliasing for large prints, but have no information on the programs involved.
    Analog film on the contrary can be enlarged without losing the qualities of the picture.
    One very good reason to keep using film.

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    If you get close enough to a masterpiece you will see the brushstrokes. But it is still a masterpiece.

    Pete.

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnz View Post
    If you get close enough to a masterpiece you will see the brushstrokes. But it is still a masterpiece.

    Pete.
    Hi Pete you are surely right (and I'm sure you are speaking in general terms!)


    Quote Originally Posted by wentbackward View Post
    ok, I was very reluctant to post these before, but I think they will be useful.
    Useful indeed, You've done a fantastic job here - I hope you have yourself a print which is hangable!

    A big thank you from me - it's taught me a lot about how to process the files - and I'm sure it will be useful to us all when the camera appears.

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Just a quick update, have been having problems with Nik Output sharpener, each run takes about 25 minutes and then dies. I've tried everything I could but obviously something I'm doing in the background. Local contrast and regular sharpening are not going to give the same results so I didn't print.

    I'll try installing on a different machine tomorrow. I must surely get this printed soon. I really want to post the final result and thoughts here!
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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    For those who are interested, I have managed to get my Nik software sorted and have sharpened the image ready to go. This was the first weekend I've had some free time for 3 weeks.

    Will try to print during the week. My goal is to squeeze everything I can from the print and produce a close to 1m wide print that you can put your nose against. Actually the print I made earlier can handle that level of viewing. A friend who has printed cibachromes for many years came over to my studio yesterday and was mightily impressed with the earlier print. I think she now quite fancies an M-M!!

  23. #73
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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    After processing the file in PSCS6 (All sharpening off) and then just very minimal capture sharpening with Nik, I printed the image 42" H x 64" L. +/- on my Epson 9900 using ImagePrint 9 and their gray profile for Epson Hot Press Natural. I did note that any contrast correction articulates the jagged artifacts.

    As a side note, with IP 9 I do not upsize the image in PS or LR. I take the native image as it comes out of the camera which was approximately 14.5"x21.7" at 240 dpi. It is then opened in IP9 and the output size is selected. The RIP does the rest.

    I then scanned the attached section of the print on my crappy desktop scanner 8-1/2" wide and uploaded.

    For reference, in the final print, the top of the girls head to to top of the bridge rail is 2-1/2" high.

    As you can see, the artifacts are clearly visible in the scan, especially in the tree branches cited previously. The print looks outstanding printed on Epson Hot Press Natural.

    The print is clean, detailed, looks amazing....

    UPDATE: (I have edited this post),

    I didn't realize that when I blew up the area below that I actual had doubled the size of it. The effective print size now being 84"x128".

    Looking at the actual print, I can only see the jagged lines with a loop. To the eye, at the huge print size, the image is clean.
    Last edited by Spiritshooter; 25th June 2012 at 07:51.

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Here is an iPhone shot of the print sitting on the floor of my office.

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritshooter View Post
    As you can see, the artifacts are clearly visible in the scan, especially in the tree branches cited previously. The print looks outstanding printed on Epson Hot Press Natural.

    The print is clean, detailed, looks amazing....

    UPDATE: (I have edited this post),

    I didn't realize that when I blew up the area below that I actual had doubled the size of it. The effective print size now being 84"x128".

    Looking at the actual print, I can only see the jagged lines with a loop. To the eye, at the huge print size, the image is clean.
    HI There - thank you - that's a grand job - I'd love to look at the print - apart from the jaggies you seem to have got lots and lots of details, and if a 64" print looks good unless you use a loupe . . . well, I guess that one can construe that's the maximum size for close up viewing!


    I'd live to see the print in person - I've only blown it up to a measly A2+ size - but I suspect it'd be a long drive!

    Thanks again - I'm sure this is of interest to lots of people

    all the best
    Jono

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I'd live to see the print in person - I've only blown it up to a measly A2+ size - but I suspect it'd be a long drive!

    Thanks again - I'm sure this is of interest to lots of people

    all the best
    Jono
    I made a second print that is approximately 36" H. x 54"L and it is simply amazing. I can't imagine most folks printing larger than this. I emailed you privately and will send you the print if you would like.

    Thanks

    Mike

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    One thing that I think that needs to be put into perspective is the following;

    The tree branches that show the artifacts are literally the thickness of a hair when printed to a size of 36"x54". With a loop, I can see the artifacts. At this size and the loop, we are virtually coming very close to seeing at the pixel level.

    Personally, I think that this is an amazing camera. In fact, this image made with the 75 Cron is probably sharper than most of the images I have shot with medium format backs and lenses. It is mind boggling that Leica can produce a 35mm sized sensor that produces such an amazing file.

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    HI Mike
    Many thanks for this - it's a pity that David Millier (who was writing off the camera on the basis of the artefacts) is unlikely to see you messages.
    I can't see how you can possibly avoid jaggy artefacts on any black and white sensor without an AA filter - unless you apply some sort of software smoothing (which rather destroys the point!). It's also good to know that the lens is up to the job (and my handholding as well!).

    all the best - and thank you again for the very kind donation.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Mike
    Many thanks for this - it's a pity that David Millier (who was writing off the camera on the basis of the artefacts) is unlikely to see you messages.
    I can't see how you can possibly avoid jaggy artefacts on any black and white sensor without an AA filter - unless you apply some sort of software smoothing (which rather destroys the point!). It's also good to know that the lens is up to the job (and my handholding as well!).

    all the best - and thank you again for the very kind donation.
    Always a pleasure. I am anxious to see the final firmware and how the camera performs in its final iteration.

    Thanks
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