Site Sponsors
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 79

Thread: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

  1. #1
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    HI There
    This is the fourth part of the experiment - Thank you so much for chipping in on the other three (which are still available for download for a day or so).

    There is also a potential problem with dropbox limits - I do pay for it, so there is a larger daily limit, but please don't download the file over and over again.

    If this is a success, then I'll be able to make other files available. I'm doing it through my website so that my son can amuse himself with the metrics!

    You can play with the file, and then you can post your conversion on this thread.

    Enjoy!

    Click on the Downloads link on the top right

    This is my take - I'm sure you can do better (I've been intentionally 'gentle' with the PP)



    If interest continues, I'll try and post an M9 / MM comparison soon.
    all the best

    Just this guy you know

  2. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    141
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Thanks again Jono. Not too different from what you got. I'm glad you chose this file because it's clear that the scene's dynamic range was well within the capabilities of the sensor (minus the person's shirt).

  3. #3
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    3,671
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post

    If interest continues, I'll try and post an M9 / MM comparison soon.
    all the best
    Jono,

    As always, your time and generosity is greatly appreciated. I'm looking forward to this evening when I can download this file and have a chance to try using various adjustments on it.

    Your possibility of posting M9/MM comparisons has been something I've been looking forward to as I'm sure many others have. Is there the possibility of your posting simultaneously, similar images taken with each camera respectfully and posting in the manner which allows us to download the RAW unadjusted DNG from each? Again thanks!

    Dave (D&A)

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    691
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Jonathan, first observation is that I cannot open in CaptureOne (sorry if pointed out already). fwiw, your photo's are the only true demo of this camera on the net. Andreas J and Erwin Puts add a lot useful information, so thanks for making these available. Leica made a good choice asking you to do this, and wonderfully brave to take this camera on your trip. I take it you had nothing else with you?
    Paul

  5. #5
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Jono,

    As always, your time and generosity is greatly appreciated. I'm looking forward to this evening when I can download this file and have a chance to try using various adjustments on it.

    Your possibility of posting M9/MM comparisons has been something I've been looking forward to as I'm sure many others have. Is there the possibility of your posting simultaneously, similar images taken with each camera respectfully and posting in the manner which allows us to download the RAW unadjusted DNG from each? Again thanks!

    Dave (D&A)
    Hi Dave
    That's the idea - but I got to take the pictures first!
    all the best

    Just this guy you know

  6. #6
    Senior Member Hosermage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA, USA
    Posts
    1,034
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Hope I didn't destroy it too much :P
    David Young
    My journey into Leica: LeicaLux.com
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

  7. #7
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    2,394
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    17

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    These files are incredible... thanks again Jono!



    Looking forward to the M9/MM comparison images.

    Brian
    Last edited by Brian Mosley; 21st May 2012 at 00:51. Reason: Second edit, following a sleep ;)

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    691
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    The files are wonderful!! I can't wait for one!! I'll print a copy of this and see if there's anything I can share further. The tonality in the bamboo is just stunning. There isn't a shadow without detail in this file. I wanted to see what SilverEfex does with pure Monochrom files. It's pretty amazing actually.


    So some processing in SilverEfex utilising the shadow detail to create an ink drawing look:
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  9. #9
    Subscriber and Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,790
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    What a treasure of captures...here is a little different view.


    Bob

  10. #10
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    seakayaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    2,889
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Jono, thanks once again!




    Looking forward to the M9/MM comparison!

  11. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    90
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Hi Jono. Along with the beauty of your photography, I'm fascinated by the people and place you made images of. Where in China did you travel?

  12. #12
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    2,394
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    17

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    I came back to this, it's such a pleasure working with great photography (thanks to Jono) and superb files... there are so many subtle possibilities... huge fun!

    Thanks again Jono

    Brian

  13. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    90
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Once again thanks to Jono for providing this.

    Am I the only person in the world who finds luminance aliasing horrible? Surely, I can't be! I have issues with my Foveon cameras because of this, I have issues with the NEX series which makes them impossible for me to use. The Leica is not on my radar because of price but even if it cost 100, there is no way I could live with the aliasing.

    Please see crop below. I've take a little excerpt from the file and marked some areas of concern. The ringed areas were not specially chosen, the whole file is like this. I simply can't understand how people can eulogise over something that looks like it is made from lego...

    Sorry if this comes out as sounding harsh, it's not meant to be, I just get frustrated at this being continually overlooked in the rush to remove AA filters from the imaging world...

    Comments anyone?



    ps

    How do people directly embed large images?

  14. #14
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by davemillier View Post
    Once again thanks to Jono for providing this.

    Am I the only person in the world who finds luminance aliasing horrible? Surely, I can't be! I have issues with my Foveon cameras because of this, I have issues with the NEX series which makes them impossible for me to use. The Leica is not on my radar because of price but even if it cost 100, there is no way I could live with the aliasing.

    Please see crop below. I've take a little excerpt from the file and marked some areas of concern. The ringed areas were not specially chosen, the whole file is like this. I simply can't understand how people can eulogise over something that looks like it is made from lego...

    Sorry if this comes out as sounding harsh, it's not meant to be, I just get frustrated at this being continually overlooked in the rush to remove AA filters from the imaging world...

    Comments anyone?



    ps

    How do people directly embed large images?
    Hi David
    first - as for embedding large images - I host them elsewhere and link to them.

    As far as the Aliasing is concerned - the girl's bike stem is the most obvious, at 100% on a 24" monitor you can see it quite clearly - not sure what size print that represents, but at least A0 I would have thought - something like a 36" print? and then you'd have to look at it from a few short inches; I might actually try to do this later.

    What I'm saying is that it's a pixel peeper problem (at least, as far as I'm concerned it is).

    All the best

    Just this guy you know

  15. #15
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,594
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by davemillier View Post
    Once again thanks to Jono for providing this.

    Am I the only person in the world who finds luminance aliasing horrible? Surely, I can't be! I have issues with my Foveon cameras because of this, I have issues with the NEX series which makes them impossible for me to use. The Leica is not on my radar because of price but even if it cost 100, there is no way I could live with the aliasing.

    Please see crop below. I've take a little excerpt from the file and marked some areas of concern. The ringed areas were not specially chosen, the whole file is like this. I simply can't understand how people can eulogise over something that looks like it is made from lego...

    Sorry if this comes out as sounding harsh, it's not meant to be, I just get frustrated at this being continually overlooked in the rush to remove AA filters from the imaging world...

    Comments anyone?



    ps

    How do people directly embed large images?
    Use the link for that image:

    http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/file...361_bridge.jpg

    and put it in between [IMG][/IMG]

    so that it will display like this:



    My comments about the aliasing:

    Wait till you see some high contrast light images with the AA 50/2.

  16. #16
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by davemillier View Post
    Once again thanks to Jono for providing this.

    Am I the only person in the world who finds luminance aliasing horrible? Surely, I can't be! I have issues with my Foveon cameras because of this, I have issues with the NEX series which makes them impossible for me to use. The Leica is not on my radar because of price but even if it cost 100, there is no way I could live with the aliasing.

    Please see crop below. I've take a little excerpt from the file and marked some areas of concern. The ringed areas were not specially chosen, the whole file is like this. I simply can't understand how people can eulogise over something that looks like it is made from lego...

    Sorry if this comes out as sounding harsh, it's not meant to be, I just get frustrated at this being continually overlooked in the rush to remove AA filters from the imaging world...

    Comments anyone?

    My comment would be that I never found this to be a problem in real use. Probably I could find it in some images from the M9 or S2? But I havent searched for it. I wonder at which printsize it would show up or if it is more a theoretical problem when viewed at 100%?
    What I however find to see all the time is that the non-AA-filter images from ccd sensors seem to show more microdetail and more depth, I think they see more the way I and my eyes see the world.
    So for me it is comparing pluses and minuses, and so far for my taste I prefer the overall output from the non-AA CCD sensors.
    But if it disturbs you thats what counts IMO- and if you see it as a problem I would not mess around with non-AA cameras in your position.
    Last edited by Paratom; 21st May 2012 at 05:18.

  17. #17
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,594
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    What I however find to see all the time is that the non-AA-filter images from ccd sensors seem to show more microdetail and more depth, I think they see more the way I and my eyes see the world.
    Poetical, Tom!

  18. #18
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    2,394
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    17

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    David, surely you could simulate an AA filter with a gaussian blur filter in PP?

    With AA filter effect :


    Without AA filter effect :


    Personally, I would rather have the 'without' detail and add a filter in PP if necessary. I'm fairly certain the sharper image would print beautifully... especially using Qimage Ultimate.

    Cheers

    Brian

  19. #19
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,594
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Brian, The jaggies are still there with added mush in your demonstration.

    There are possible hardware solutions to this problem:

    1. Buy and use cheap lenses (FSU Industars, for example)well stopped down for a good measure.

    2. Use custom AA filters (some manufacturers are offering these, a pity that the effects can not be seen before taking a shot due to the lack of live view).

    Of course, with all this, the "micro details" that Tom points to will start to disappear and then the whole charm of a camera that offers 100% more sharpness would wear off.

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    430
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by davemillier View Post
    Once again thanks to Jono for providing this.

    Am I the only person in the world who finds luminance aliasing horrible? Sorry if this comes out as sounding harsh, it's not meant to be, I just get frustrated at this being continually overlooked in the rush to remove AA filters from the imaging world...
    The problem is worse with color images as the 2x2 Bayer Pattern Mosaic filter introduces different aliasing into the RGB layers.

    This problem can be solved in software using post-processing. Off-hand, the dot-pitch algorithm used by HP Laser printers introduced with the Laserjet 3 would be interesting. In cases of aliasing, the firmware used smaller dots in between the picture elements. For example: the firmware used smaller dots to fill in the jagged edges of a line running at an angle across the image being printed. It would be possible to develop a similar algorithm for detecting jagged edges in the image and to "upres" the image, or apply a local averaging filter. In the 1980s, I wrote a FORTRAN program that basically identified lines and curves in an image using Hough transforms. You could use such a program to make a mask of the thin lines and curves in an image and then selectively smooth them. The 1980s was a fun time for digital imaging.

    I'm wondering if I want this camera to just relive my youth writing FORTRAN code for image processing.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  21. #21
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,594
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian S View Post
    I'm wondering if I want this camera to just relive my youth writing FORTRAN code for image processing.
    That is an interesting perspective, Brian. I have been look at this camera for street snaps. I am terrible when it comes to post processing, even when there are no major problems with the files that can not be dealt with the garden variety software.

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    430
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    I'm wondering if the "Genuine Fractals" software does a "raster-vector" and then "Vector-Raster" conversion to upres images. Sounds like it in their description.

    Genuine Fractals is now Perfect Resize 7 - onOne Software

    Rather than writing some custom code to interpolate out the aliasing- maybe someone wants to give the free trial a whirl on one of these images.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    2,394
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    17

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Wouldn't a decent printer driver handle this (anti-aliasing) as a matter of course? I'm sure Qimage does.

    Cheers

    Brian

  24. #24
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,594
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Wouldn't a decent printer driver handle this (anti-aliasing) as a matter of course? I'm sure Qimage does.

    Cheers

    Brian
    Are you implying that this is some momentary thing that vanishes before the final output? What happens to the "micro details"?

    Someone commented on "delayed gratification" and how it enhances the photographic experience (with an M9), earlier. This would prolong that even further!
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  25. #25
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    LOL! Jono, I originally thought you had your regular M9 with you on your travels when shooting the M9M.

    Yes, if its possible for you to take comparitive shots from each camera and post the "out of the camera" DNG's, that would be fantastic. I'm sure everone would love a attempt at not only adjusting these but evaluate the advanatages of B&W with the M9M. Thanks!

    Dave (D&A)
    HI Dave

    you mean like this:



    I did have an M9 with me, but I didn't usually take the same image, or necessarily use the same lens. . . . . . . and I certainly didn't have a tripod with me.
    There isn't much point of a test which has nearly similar images with a different lens hand held - which means a boring brick wall picture is required (well, I might manage to be a bit more adventurous!).

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

  26. #26
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    3,671
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Hi Jono,

    Although the color M9 image you just posted here would certainly help to a degree in comparing output of the M9M with the M9 and posting a download of it I'm sure would please many. I was also thinking of something along the lines of a more controlled comparison as you stated, but it can be a compromise of "real world shooting"...not necessarily brick walls etc. For example, the same scene shot with each camera but using same ISO and same lens stopped down to identical aperture and using what you feel is best exposure (shutter speed wise) for each camera to capture the scene. Both can be handheld if that emulates how you shot these images or tripod mounting would be fine too. It doesn't have to be perfect.... just to get a some idea as to the differences one might expect between both cameras when final output is B&W. Interesting, after staring at the B&W images of this scene for last 20 minutes, when your M9 color image popped onto screen, it was a bit jarring. Sort of took me out of the past into the present....at least that was the illusion your image and all these B&W's created for me with this particular scene

    OK, here are three of my "takes" for consideration....

    Thanks!

    Dave (D&A)
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  27. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    691
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by davemillier View Post
    ...Am I the only person in the world who finds luminance aliasing horrible?
    Dave, Lightrooms default sharpening is horribly aggressive. I know Alamy have banned sharpening altogether on submitted images for exactly the artefacts you are seeing.

    My basic rule is don't sharpen until you output. Nik Define is pretty good. Some people to like to do a little pre-sharpening, if you want, try 31, 0.5, 0, 8 in Lightroom.


    I didn't get around to printing today but I'll try and then upload crops from each step and then a macro shot of some print details.

    Paul
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  28. #28
    Senior Member Hosermage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA, USA
    Posts
    1,034
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Someone commented on "delayed gratification" and how it enhances the photographic experience (with an M9), earlier. This would prolong that even further!
    Hehe.. I think it was me, because I found importing pictures at the end of the day with M9 often wow me more than when I was composing through the LCD screen on the NEX. But even I would not want to wait until print time, might as well go shoot film! I think I've just realized that compared to others, focus/sharpness/pixel-peep is much less important to me when I look at a photograph.. Ignorance is bliss!
    David Young
    My journey into Leica: LeicaLux.com
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  29. #29
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,594
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosermage View Post
    Hehe.. I think it was me, because I found importing pictures at the end of the day with M9 often wow me more than when I was composing through the LCD screen on the NEX. But even I would not want to wait until print time, might as well go shoot film! I think I've just realized that compared to others, focus/sharpness/pixel-peep is much less important to me when I look at a photograph.. Ignorance is bliss!
    You disappoint, David!

  30. #30
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    2,394
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    17

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Are you implying that this is some momentary thing that vanishes before the final output? What happens to the "micro details"?

    Someone commented on "delayed gratification" and how it enhances the photographic experience (with an M9), earlier. This would prolong that even further!
    No, I was just thinking that the jaggies appear at 100% pixel peeping level on screen because the image isn't smoothed... if you are worried about jaggies at full image view (either on screen, or in a print) then use the appropriate scaling software - either your printer driver will handle this, or the algorithm chosen in your post processing software.

    Cheers

    Brian

  31. #31
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by wentbackward View Post
    Dave, Lightrooms default sharpening is horribly aggressive. I know Alamy have banned sharpening altogether on submitted images for exactly the artefacts you are seeing.

    My basic rule is don't sharpen until you output. Nik Define is pretty good. Some people to like to do a little pre-sharpening, if you want, try 31, 0.5, 0, 8 in Lightroom.


    I didn't get around to printing today but I'll try and then upload crops from each step and then a macro shot of some print details.

    Paul
    Hi Paul

    I absolutely agree about sharpening - especially with the MM files. Like everyone else, I'll be fascinated to see your results on this - it might actually be worth a new thread.

    all the best
    Jono

    Just this guy you know

  32. #32
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Here's a thought ... just a different approach ... since I work with a number of different CCD cameras I discovered this technique seemed to be relatively effective in mitigating jaggies. Each new camera is different, presents new processing challenges and has to be worked out.

    For this specific MM camera file of the Bridge, I base it off a 20" print at 360 ppi because that is the largest I can print on my Epson 3880. I would not be overly ambitious in enlargement sizes with a 18 meg file anyway. Anything will produce saw-tooth jaggies eventually ... the M9 does it much sooner than my S2, and S2 sooner than my H4D/60 ... the only cameras I've seen without an AA filter that defies luminance aliasing well past 100% are Sinar and Hasselblad Multi-Shot MFDs.

    The notion is to preserve micro contrast by reducing any RAW software sharpening to zero, and even reduce the Clarity slider a bit ... then use the broad array of exposure tools in LR4 to produce more acute micro contrast ... effectively making the image look sharp without resorting to edge sharpening or wholesale contrast tools like Clarity.

    I think it is also important to recognize that a file at "fit to" a computer screen is not the best evaluative tool for this specific exercise. My 30" monitor displays at 2560 X 1600 ... a 20" file @ 360 dpi is 7200 X 4791. So, when figuring out a new camera, I crop sections of any demo image @ 100% and print them, then adjust accordingly.

    Rather than try to demo what I mean here at 1200 pixels wide ... I did quick version using the technique outlined above, and loaded it to my "Jono's MM Processing gallery" on SmugMug. ... There is a full image, a crop (which is sort of ridiculous, since it represents a print the size of a bill-board : -) ... and I also placed the LR settings that I used as a screen shot for easier reading ... (also shown below at 1200 pixels).

    It is STILL a downsized version jpg on SmugMug, so DO NOT just view it at screen size ... place your cursor over the large preview image to the right and click on it, then select "Original" in the top right corner for a larger version to scroll around and pixel peep. This SmugMug version is no-where as good as the full 20" version on my screen, which in turn sucks next to the print I pulled ... and from direct experience the inkjet print I made will suck next to a laser print on a good silver based photo paper

    Jono's MM files - fotografz's Photos | SmugMug

    -Marc-

  33. #33
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    HI Marc
    Thank you - that's really useful.
    In fact - simply backing off on the clarity and removing sharpening does an excellent job of removing the jaggies on the girl's bike stem.
    I'm planning to print this as soon as I get the time. and then I'll see!

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

  34. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    691
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Hi All,
    My first round printing this image. The big problem with getting to know a new sensor is that it might look terrible on-screen but in fact prints quite well. I generated a TIF with some light pre-sharpening from lightroom, used Perfect Resize to upscale to 94cm wide and also had to crop a little of the image. The final dimensions were 11,102 x 7,772 for the actual photo, but the printed image has a light border bringing the output size to 100x70cm. The paper is a satin matt and using my own custom profile.

    I then dried and mounted the image in a hotpress (it's very humid here so this really makes the print set well).

    Why 100x70cm? Because I had a crummy Ikea frame around that was that size.

    In summary I can say this first attempt is way off and could be much better. Anyway below are pictures of the process, followed by some macro shots of the print. I should have used Nik Define to get me started and could have sharpened much more.


    ----

    ----

    ----

    ----

    ----

    ----

    ----
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  35. #35
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    691
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    So on the girls face you can see the tone around her cheek bone, that was not so apparent on screen so I refrained from sharpening too much, which has left some details kind of blurry.

  36. #36
    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Denmark, CPH
    Posts
    2,500
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    laser print

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    (...)
    ... and from direct experience the inkjet print I made will suck next to a laser print on a good silver based photo paper

    you say "laser print", Marc ...

    what kind of printer would that take, I know it's a bit off topic, but please elaborate ...

    where I live (in Denmark) the Epson 3880 is very expensive and the ink too, so I have often been thinking about some kind of useable alternative, I could even live with black-and-white only

  37. #37
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Troms, Norway
    Posts
    109
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Jono,

    thank you for providing the MM files. I took the liberty of downloading your bookshelf picture, and, just for kicks, tried to see how it would hold up if I interpolated the file to 13500x9000 pixels. Im thoroughly impressed with the quality, and yeah, not much more to pick up than a stop or so of detail in the shadows, but with a proper exposure in the first place, who needs it?

    I was almost set on getting an X-pro1/18mm kit, but I have to reconsider. Henri is calling, my bank account is weeping at the horror.. The horror..

    My computer is slowly trying to kill itself now, after I erroneously clicked "smart sharpen" in CS5, but here we go.

    Full size image file is about 121 megapixels (Im on a 3ghz,12gb old type hard drive imac, not up to snuff at all for these types of things). It may look grainy as all hell up close, but imagine the potential with these files, shot at ISO 10000, on a poster!



    Jono, while this probably really wont garnish any interest from any pirates out there, Ill delete as soon as you say the word. Im just amazed, and wanted to share.

  38. #38
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Troms, Norway
    Posts
    109
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Oh, forgot, no noise reduction or sharpening on that one. It has visited SEfex2, as for some mundane reason, Leica includes the software with the camera. I have no idea why.

  39. #39
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    90
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Hi

    A valiant attempt at smoothing the image but it doesn't work that well. Forget about the bike jaggies, it's the jaggies in trees that bother me. Not only are there still very obvious "spiral candle" type artifacts on thin branches but there is that patchy messiness on complicated overlapping foliage which screams aliasing. It's exactly what my NEX 3 does too.

    I also don't really see the point of starting out with an aliased image then attempting to disguise it with various forms of blur. Why not just start off with a nice clean, artifact free anti-aliased image to start with and sharpen appropriately to restore the MTF around Nyquist.

    There is a thread over on the Lula forums about the D800 vs D800e. The guys there showed conclusively that with proper attention spent deconvolution sharpening, the acutance advantage of the D800e is negligible. The D800 provides the cleaner files. The reviews of course draw a different conclusion because they don't do deconvolution.

    I applaud Leica's mono initiative but there nothing that screams "digital" to me more than aliasing artifacts - cleanly rendered or "disguised".

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Here's a thought ... just a different approach ... since I work with a number of different CCD cameras I discovered this technique seemed to be relatively effective in mitigating jaggies. Each new camera is different, presents new processing challenges and has to be worked out.

    For this specific MM camera file of the Bridge, I base it off a 20" print at 360 ppi because that is the largest I can print on my Epson 3880. I would not be overly ambitious in enlargement sizes with a 18 meg file anyway. Anything will produce saw-tooth jaggies eventually ... the M9 does it much sooner than my S2, and S2 sooner than my H4D/60 ... the only cameras I've seen without an AA filter that defies luminance aliasing well past 100% are Sinar and Hasselblad Multi-Shot MFDs.

    The notion is to preserve micro contrast by reducing any RAW software sharpening to zero, and even reduce the Clarity slider a bit ... then use the broad array of exposure tools in LR4 to produce more acute micro contrast ... effectively making the image look sharp without resorting to edge sharpening or wholesale contrast tools like Clarity.

    I think it is also important to recognize that a file at "fit to" a computer screen is not the best evaluative tool for this specific exercise. My 30" monitor displays at 2560 X 1600 ... a 20" file @ 360 dpi is 7200 X 4791. So, when figuring out a new camera, I crop sections of any demo image @ 100% and print them, then adjust accordingly.

    Rather than try to demo what I mean here at 1200 pixels wide ... I did quick version using the technique outlined above, and loaded it to my "Jono's MM Processing gallery" on SmugMug. ... There is a full image, a crop (which is sort of ridiculous, since it represents a print the size of a bill-board : -) ... and I also placed the LR settings that I used as a screen shot for easier reading ... (also shown below at 1200 pixels).

    It is STILL a downsized version jpg on SmugMug, so DO NOT just view it at screen size ... place your cursor over the large preview image to the right and click on it, then select "Original" in the top right corner for a larger version to scroll around and pixel peep. This SmugMug version is no-where as good as the full 20" version on my screen, which in turn sucks next to the print I pulled ... and from direct experience the inkjet print I made will suck next to a laser print on a good silver based photo paper

    Jono's MM files - fotografz's Photos | SmugMug

    -Marc-

  40. #40
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    2,394
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    17

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by wentbackward View Post
    Hi All,
    Wonderful demo, thank you... and pretty much what I expected from the print interpolation. Taking the straight image and scaling up dramatically with Qimage, I get something similar (though obviously not as good!)



    Cheers

    Brian
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

  41. #41
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Hi David
    Quote Originally Posted by davemillier View Post
    There is a thread over on the Lula forums about the D800 vs D800e. The guys there showed conclusively that with proper attention spent deconvolution sharpening, the acutance advantage of the D800e is negligible. The D800 provides the cleaner files.
    Yes . . . but others have come to different conclusions.
    Personally I think it's angels dancing on the head of pins!

    Just this guy you know
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  42. #42
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by arild;420555
    [IMG
    http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8008/7250579166_ab26d74bb7_b.jpg[/IMG]

    Jono, while this probably really wont garnish any interest from any pirates out there, Ill delete as soon as you say the word. Im just amazed, and wanted to share.
    LOL - I wondered who'd find this - it's from a chemists shop in Cardiff in the 19th century . . .but in the current context perhaps it's rather apropos.

    Don't take anything down!

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

  43. #43
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by davemillier View Post
    Hi

    A valiant attempt at smoothing the image but it doesn't work that well. Forget about the bike jaggies, it's the jaggies in trees that bother me. Not only are there still very obvious "spiral candle" type artifacts on thin branches but there is that patchy messiness on complicated overlapping foliage which screams aliasing. It's exactly what my NEX 3 does too.

    I also don't really see the point of starting out with an aliased image then attempting to disguise it with various forms of blur. Why not just start off with a nice clean, artifact free anti-aliased image to start with and sharpen appropriately to restore the MTF around Nyquist.

    There is a thread over on the Lula forums about the D800 vs D800e. The guys there showed conclusively that with proper attention spent deconvolution sharpening, the acutance advantage of the D800e is negligible. The D800 provides the cleaner files. The reviews of course draw a different conclusion because they don't do deconvolution.

    I applaud Leica's mono initiative but there nothing that screams "digital" to me more than aliasing artifacts - cleanly rendered or "disguised".
    Haven't a clue what you are talking about. Wish I could see it, but I don't ... However, I am viewing the original at 100% on a print. Perhaps you could do a screen grab from the Original size I loaded to Smug Mug, and point out what you are talking about. I do prints not web pics, so that the main criteria, and there I don't see anything like what you are mentioning.

    BTW, not sharpening a file isn't disguising anything IMO. Conversely, perhaps sharpening is disguising a mushy image?

    -Marc

  44. #44
    Senior Member mjm6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    526
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    15

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Marc,

    I noticed the ailising artifacts in the first image Jono put up and commented on it (in the beard). However, it took viewing at 100% on the screen to see, and that equates to about 400% higher than I would normally print (360 ppi on the print normally).

    My point when I saw it was that it is proof that the camera has high resolving capabilities... (higher than the normal camera offerings out there anyway) and that it just will take some care to avoid problems.

    As you say above, it is absolutely a case of all cameras doing this depending on the magnification, if you are able to send an image sharp enough through the lens to the sensor, and if they camera doesn't smear the image with an AA filter.

    So clearly, the lenses Jono used still have headroom before the sensor is more capable than the lenses, which makes me wonder what exactly Leica is thinking with the new 50mm Summi. At this point, I don't think they make a camera that can accept that level of sharpness (other than tech pan...)

    However, a 36MP monochrome sensor... who knows where that will shake out. I bet close to the limits of these lenses.

    Until the sensors are more capable than the lenses (so the lenses effectively act as an AA filter on their own) these ailising issues will occur, especially when looking at 100%.

    A camera that doesn't suffer from ailising is going to fall into one of two camps; it has a fairly poor lens on it that doesn't meet the performance level of the sensor, or the sensor has a pretty strong AA filter applied, which ultimately results in a similar destruction of sharpness to avoid the issue. It could be a combination of both, too.

    Ailising will clearly be a greater problem if there is no pixel averaging going on, which it appears is not (but there is some pretty strong debate on this as well). However, if there were much, I don't think the ailising would be visible as we have seen.

    Regardless, I think it's a good problem to have, and something that can be dealt with most of the time without too much difficulty.


    ---Michael
    a7r, a7rII, FE 16-35, FE 24-70GM, FE 70-200, Loxia 21mm, 35mm, 50mm

  45. #45
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    691
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Regarding the jaggies, the level of anti-aliasing is your own choice of how to interpret the conversion from an analogue world to digital. The artefacts seen in the samples above were excessive due to sharpening settings. Oversharpening the input causes the leaves to look mushy and blown out, whereas in fact they are not. I think there are some acacia trees in there and indeed they are difficult to resolve, (low contrast, small details, very random, pushing out of green into yellow). In the print they do show a nice random pattern, not mush as seen in colour on a regular camera.

    The simple solution to these jaggies: Don't sharpen, upsize the image to output dimensions, sharpen for a given viewing distance, then print/render
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  46. #46
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    691
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Regarding printing, I can see the results can be improved (it was my first attempt at this image/camera/pure B&W, I did no test prints):
    1. I still oversharpened the source/input/RAW conversion, I suspect (as Jono has pointed out already I think) no input sharpening is close to optimal on this image
    2. The second improvement would be not sharpening the output enough, as I [perhaps wrongly felt] was losing tonality in areas that were close white.
    3. There is some noise in the shadows which was subsequently enlarged, I think I can do some shadow specific noise reduction before enlargement.
    4. Adding a little grain at the output stage would give the image more bite. I didn't add any grain last time.
    5. The mounting card was from an emergency 'weekend' supplier. Two words sum it up. Expensive crap.

    Those macro shots were shot through the glass btw as I wanted to bring the print home so stuck it in a frame.

    Despite the problems, the image passed the 'wife' test today with a Wow, clearly that is all Jono's creative talent, not any technical aspect of the printer! Anyhow any image that makes her wow, would make someone else fall off their perch, so that's good!

    Personally at 100x70cm I expected the details to pop at close to the same level as a Medium Format image. The image surely has the detail to pop, but it didn't quite do it for me.

    I will print again with the adjusted settings, remount on better card, then post macro shots out of the glass.

  47. #47
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    691
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Lastly, Jono ... you have incredibly stable hands for 1/250th at 75mm it is astonishingly good!

  48. #48
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    5,672
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Informative, educational, fascinating & entertaining!

    Cheers, Matt

    Zenfolio | Matt Driscoll

  49. #49
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    90
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Deleted, see next post
    Last edited by davemillier; 22nd May 2012 at 23:26.

  50. #50
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    90
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Fun with MM DNG - 4 XingPing bridge

    Marc

    i find with my 50 year old eyes that I need to don reading glasses to see these things clearly ;-)

    Enthusiasts of the AA-less approach like to go on about sharpness and micro-contrast, the trouble is that in any sampled system you need to reduce MTF at Nyquist to suppress under-sampling artifacts, not increase it. Detail beyond Nyquist isn't detail, it's distortion. And the problem with distortion is that while sometimes it can fool the eye into seeing detail, other times what you see is horrible artifacts.

    The problem with aliasing in landscapes for me isn't so much the obvious aliasing (reviewers always look for colour moire, don't they) but the effect it has on the "feel" of the rendering of grass and foliage from the little mentioned luminance aliasing. The example below even softened by your treatment still has obvious artifacts but these are just the gross symptoms. What I see is a kind of localised patchiness in rendering, depending on the subject. Sometimes you get nice sharpness and detail, sometimes you get strange broken, confused tones that look a bit like noise, other times you get a fabricated texture eg hair detail that renders like a canvas weave in patches. It is all so variable and random. What I find with my NEX is that some subjects look clean and sharp while other (the details of a broadleaf forest in winter for example) look noisy and messy. It's difficult to describe in words but it's basically the effect of rendering small detail as a fractured tile pattern with sharp geometric edges, then overlaying it on other small detail rendered as a fractured tile pattern with sharp geometrical edges. When you shrink this down to typical print sizes, the result looks nasty, noisy, unnatural to me. Apparently many people perceive it merely as "crisp".

    Anyway, back to the easy stuff, a crop from your file:



    By the way, here's an example from DPreview tests of the NEX. Compare the smoothness of the Olympus rendering to that of the NEX 5 on the curves of the coin (You need to select the "original" link and click to expand to full size). Hideous isn't it?


    http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/28...os/1900584/lum


    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Haven't a clue what you are talking about. Wish I could see it, but I don't ... However, I am viewing the original at 100% on a print. Perhaps you could do a screen grab from the Original size I loaded to Smug Mug, and point out what you are talking about. I do prints not web pics, so that the main criteria, and there I don't see anything like what you are mentioning.

    BTW, not sharpening a file isn't disguising anything IMO. Conversely, perhaps sharpening is disguising a mushy image?

    -Marc

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •