Leica price bubble finally bursting?

[ptomsu]

IMHO the Leica price bubble is not bursting, it is still not completely filled. It might take another 2-4 years before prices could go down.

But thinking back 5 years from now, one could get really cheap R and M lenses, just because the Leica management of the past had done so much damage to this brand - this was before Kaufman. Now since he took over the situation has stabilized and this is due to the success of the M9 and the M lenses. So if they manage to keep the fire burning (speak M10 and a new mirror less Leica) then prices will not go down over the next years in general.

My 5c

 

[Double Negative]

A few years ago many people predicted that Leica would not be around for much longer...

They said that about Apple, too.

 

[Double Negative]

ANY hobby, "done right" is expensive. Same with sports. Consider this. You decide one day you want to get into camping, jetskiing, regular skiing/snowboarding, hiking... Add up all the crap you need to be reasonably outfitted... Cha-ching.

Just like all those, photography is no different. You have the "bargain gear" and you have the "top shelf" stuff. You have to decide for yourself how much money you want to dump into the endeavor.

 

[jonoslack]

It's difficult to predict these things but I have a feeling that the M10 will be nothing like the M9 in terms of sales – I think there will be significantly fewer upgraders and fewer new entrants into the M system. Leica no longer seems quite the flavour of the month that it seemed last year and I'm not sure the M10, whatever the specs, will be the sales 'game changer' that the M9 undoubtedly proved.

I am as big a Leica M fan boy as you will find and I am having a hard time getting excited . If the ISO performance isn t great at 1600-3200 ..my transition maybe slow . Especially if they get up around $10K with pricing .

Agree completely that its unlikely that the M10 will be game changer that the M9 was.

Ian, Roger
It's funny that on the one hand everyone is crying out for a FF mirrorless camera . . . and on the other hand nobody seems very inspired by the idea of an M10.

Various sources seem to say that it'll have a CMOS sensor, and Stefan Daniel has implied it and also talked about having got over the video difficulties. It doesn't seem to me that people have thought through the implications of this very thoroughly.

Personally I feel the M10 might be even more of a game changer than the M9.

We shall see!

 

[Gary Clennan]

1. 'Saving money' is not an option for the low income groups. They have none.

2. 'Make sacrifices in other area's ( sic..areas )' !! I make sacrifices only to provide for the most critical necessities of life. Else, for me, it boils own to allocating available resources amongst various non-essentials.

3. Using credit to purchase something non-essential, to me is an alien concept ( my bank hates me for this ). Besides, I do not intend to pay more than the MRSP; which is what one does when using plastic to defer payments over a length of time.

Lower income groups, do not usually have this facility avaiable to them.

Having traveled extensively during the last 30 or more years, lived amongst the most affluent of societies...I know that Leica gear is not made nor marketed for the low income groups.

I do not earn any part of my living through photography. My current Leica gear was bought in cash by the money I made buying and then selling Leica gear. A big thanks to the Leica lovers.

In the markets that operate today, there is no such thing as a high or low price. It is up to the buyer to decide. To me, If I can, I shall buy high only if I can sell higher. And, as in the case of my Leicas, make images that for me shall last for very long..the price paid for the equipment is irrelevant.

Lower income groups do not have that option. My views here relate only to
non-essential items in life.

As I have said before, Leica products are not only for the rich or wealthy. They are also not typically bought by low income earners... I personally know three mid to low income earners who own Leica. It happens.

 

[glenerrolrd]

This is only partially true!

I made my new D800E sing within 2 days, as I have shot several other Nikon DSLRs in the past - D1, D100, D200, D3, D700 and now D800E. So that learning curve was zero.

In the moment I do not shoot any M digital, but also shot an M8 for 3 years, so I am sure I can be back pretty soon in this system as well.

In parallel to the D800E I am shooting an OMD with several M43 lenses and also no issue.

And sometimes I even take my H3D39 of special requests and also here it is just turning on and go shooting.

And I am really looking forward to the new M10 with hopefully CMOS, that one will be a fix starter for me!

But Thomas you have enormous talent . I still have to check my settings with the D800E. :facesmack:

And ..it depends a lot on what type of shooting you are doing . I received my first M when I was 15 and I m now 65 ..that should be long enough to become proficient with a rangefinder . But when I put my M s down for a few weeks it can take a day to starting nailing the appropriate number sharp well composed images . The M is all about hand eye coordination if you use it to shoot subjects that move .

The Nikon is easier in many ways but it still takes a little time to establish the best practices for AF etc . The issue with the Nikon is post processing and again this depends on your goals and objectives . Few subscribe to my view that consistency in the final images is in any way important . In short I would like the signature to reflect my aesthetic ..not the manufactures idea of proper rendering . I had this with leica lenses and kodachrome or tri x . Mix images from a lifetime of work and they need to compliment each other . If I produce a portfolio ....I don t want people to sort out the Nikon files as inferior to the Leica IQ. Like mixing in a bunch of Ektachrome 400 slides with my KR64 . Purely a personal requirement .

My goal in shooting is to reach that place where everything is without thought . I am looking and scanning constantly ..trying to anticipate the moment . You can't see it through the viewfinder ..its too late . To achieve this I need about 200-300 images to warm up . I need great familiarity with my equipment to get in the “zone” . This is why I love my M9 s .

Now try this with this years cameras of the year or switch from Sony to Canon or Canon to Nikon. The Sony Nex 7 felt so different that I knew it would take some effort . The results didn t match the hype . Same feeling about the fuji X Pro1 , But sure if you are coming from a Nikon D700 or d3 etc ..the D800 is a straightforward transition .

The one camera that really clicked for me was the S2 . I used every R body from the very first SL with the external meter . When I picked up the S2 ...closed my eyes and fired off a few shots ... I could feel it s DNA . You can process M and S files in LR4 and with the proper presets get a very similar look . I am determined to get there with the Nikon NEF files but I may need some help .

So in my case ..there is a significant time commitment required to change gear and the benefits of any new gear better be sufficient to justify time as well as $$.

 

[glenerrolrd]

Ian, Roger
It's funny that on the one hand everyone is crying out for a FF mirrorless camera . . . and on the other hand nobody seems very inspired by the idea of an M10.

Various sources seem to say that it'll have a CMOS sensor, and Stefan Daniel has implied it and also talked about having got over the video difficulties. It doesn't seem to me that people have thought through the implications of this very thoroughly.

Personally I feel the M10 might be even more of a game changer than the M9.

We shall see!

Jono


You could very well be right . Getting ready for the Olympics I found my images from the women’s team gymnastics (1996 Atlanta ) . Was able to capture the gold metal winning vault ..so proud ..then I watched NBC s coverage ....I was right next to the NBC camera ...how great would this have been on video ! Never satisfied .

But I don t need my M to shot video or have live view ..just the way I apply the kit to my shooting . Live view on the S2 ...wow ..big advantage . I want a color version of the MONO .

Video pales in comparison to what the M needs (1) better ISO performance (2) a battery that lasts (3) fast transfer speeds on large raw files (4) a decent LCD .

But I fear that the move to CMOS will change the aesthetic/look of the images . When it comes to my M s I resist change with the best .

 

[Gary Clennan]

Roger - I agree with you regaring the S2. A little out of my price league but it really is a camera which appeals to me.

 

[jonoslack]

Video pales in comparison to what the M needs (1) better ISO performance (2) a battery that lasts (3) fast transfer speeds on large raw files (4) a decent LCD

Wasn't there a recent interview with Stefan Daniel when he explicitly mentioned these issues precisely? I quite agree though, an M10 without these improvements really isn't worth the effort.
.

But I fear that the move to CMOS will change the aesthetic/look of the images . When it comes to my M s I resist change with the best .

I don't know - there have been some nice CMOS sensors too - notably the A900 sensor, but I guess it is a worry.

all the best

 

[fotografz]

I think predictions for Leica are predicated on old models of marketing. Their new strategy is even more aimed at exclusivity and rarity while trading on a rich legacy of image making. The Leica value proposition isn't based on the same "values" as other systems, and never has been.

The D800 is not a rangefinder. Nor is the NEX, and the Fuji is not full frame nor simple like the M.

The M is the only game in town for high-end rangefinder image making and the whole aesthetic that accompanies it.

How the M10 will fit that model remains to be seen, however Leica is very slow to erode their own positioning just to accommodate short term trends.

IMO, the M10 may not go beyond 24 meg as it would defeat the portable, hand-held, ambient light nature of traditional rangefinder work where 36 meg or greater may not be realized even with the fab lenses.

Like Roger I am holding judgement to see how the image performance of a CMOS M compares to the M9 ... and whether the ISO performance improves to allow a good 1600-3200. Odd as it may sound, a built-in diopter will be an important factor for me ... I'm sick of dealing with diopters on the M camera.

-Marc

 

[glenerrolrd]

I admire what Leica has done recently with their product positioning . The exclusivity is clearly there but I hope they stay focused on the enthusiast as well.

The Mono was an excellent product launch IMHO and they tied together the new product with the leica stores and a number of black and white gallery exhibits. I used to enjoy visiting the camera stores but no more . Who wants to go into shabby surroundings and see a few beat up used pieces and nothing new ? merging exhibitions ,product demonstrations ,education etc with the retail creates the excitement that an enthusiast seeks . Assuming Leica addresses the capacity limitations with the new plant and can stock the stores ... they will be unique .

I can still remember when Nikon had there store next to the skating rink at Rockefeller Center in NYC. You could take a new lens out and shoot a couple of test shots of the golden statue . Instant gratification. LOL

 

[4season]

The real impact of the Nikon D800/E maybe that (1) it sucks both money and desire for the latest out of the advanced amateur segment and (2) it established a very high hurdle for the value proposition of an entire system .

I'd agree that the "D800 Effect" is real if you simply want to tool for image-making. Although Leica can't compete directly, they might continue to do very well by stressing the intangibles, similar to Cartier or Chanel.

L'Odyssée de Cartier - YouTube
The new CHANEL N°5 film - YouTube

Although my rational self tells me that this camera will perform no differently from my standard-issue M9 with the worn paint, I am totally a sucker for the way they've presented this thing:

The Making of the Leica M9-P »Edition Hermès« -- Série Limitée Jean-Louis Dumas - YouTube

 

[stephengilbert]

The Hermes video is like a litmus test: some people no doubt respond positively, while others cringe. Does it come with the white gloves so you can remove the camera from its presentation box?

 

[Hosermage]

for guilt-free fondling!

 

[jonoslack]

for guilt-free fondling!

I'd love one - I think it's a pretty thing . . . how cool would it be to have a beat up Hermes edition :ROTFL::ROTFL:

 

[jonoslack]

I'd agree that the "D800 Effect" is real if you simply want to tool for image-making. Although Leica can't compete directly, they might continue to do very well by stressing the intangibles, similar to Cartier or Chanel.

Nah - the D800 effect is huge and tangible, and showing at this forum (big time) . . . but it's to do with MF and whether you REALLY need it - it's nothing to do with a rangefinder and whether you Really WANT it.

I just prefer shooting with a rangefinder - the D800 is clearly splendid - but it doesn't have the slightest effect on me and my rangefinder fetish.

Leica won't survive by producing hermes/cartier/chanel kit (they already failed to do that). IMVHO they can only survive by producing stuff which is very high quality, and which is used by real photographers. . . . and competing in the mainstream would be almost as fatal as becoming a 'boutique company'.

 

[Brian S]

They said that about Apple, too.

I never said that about Apple.

My wife, after listening to some Apple Fanatic preaching about the wonders of Macs told him "Not only don't I like Macs, I don't like the people that use them either." It was fun to watch her walk into a computer store, hit three buttons on a Mac II, and then tell me we had to leave because they needed to unplug their computers.

 

[Godfrey]

I'd love one - I think it's a pretty thing . . . how cool would it be to have a beat up Hermes edition

Pretty darn cool indeed. Just like that nice old Ferrari 250GT SWB I remember from my youth: the one with the "Ferrari" emblem on the back that swung from its remaining retaining pin until it etched a quarter circle scuff in the paint on the trunk lid, and sunburned paint from sitting in the sun all the time. The guy who owned it didn't give a darn that it was a priceless collectible — he bought it to drive, and he drove it nearly every day with the appropriate gusto.

 

[BANKER1]

I never said that about Apple.

My wife, after listening to some Apple Fanatic preaching about the wonders of Macs told him "Not only don't I like Macs, I don't like the people that use them either." It was fun to watch her walk into a computer store, hit three buttons on a Mac II, and then tell me we had to leave because they needed to unplug their computers.

Yes, it reminds me of the time a DOS "expert" berated and lectured me about the idiocy of MACs. After his tirade, I asked him if he ever used a MAC. Without remorse or embarrassment he proceeded to tell me that he had never touched one! It is also reassuring that a class of people can be judged in advance and be told that they are unlikable. I guess anyone can be closed minded and judgmental.

Greg

 

[Brian S]

The battle between Apple users an PC users make Leica vs Canon/Leica look trivial.

My wife was in charge of computers at a Research Hospital, MAC II's had been put in before she got there. Used to monitor medical equipment hooked up to patients. The Virus Scanner was spreading viruses on the MACs, and an Animated Einstein running in circles popped up on the MACs, rendering them unstable for monitoring the patients. That was bad. She replaced the MAC's. She used to debug compilers on the Cray.

And people thought the Sandisk SD UHS-1 card problem was bad.