Site Sponsors
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 107

Thread: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    113
    Post Thanks / Like

    Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    A FLE just sold for USD 4,750 on eBay: Auction

    I think this is what life is like before the M9 right? Finally prices are back down to earthly levels (high rise penthouse, not walkups). I welcome this with open arms. I don't want to pay over Leica's already high MSRP for used lenses.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    2,056
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    That used price is still pretty high considering a brand new one costs about $250 more than this.

  3. #3
    Senior Member 4season's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Colorado USA
    Posts
    518
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    My impression is that tulip, err Leica mania peaked sometime in 2011. M9 camera bodies have been readily available for some time now, and it looks like lenses are slowly becoming available from stock too: As I write this, the 18/3.8, 28/2.8, 75/2.5 and 50/2 are in-stock at B&H.

    The days of flipping a Summilux for a quick $1K profit are probably over, but prices for used lenses are still really high compared to circa 2006, when you might've gotten the original Tri-Elmar for $1200, or a non-asph 90/2 for $800.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  4. #4
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    ashwinrao1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Seattle, WA - USA
    Posts
    3,276
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Yup, prices have dropped, but with times comes price fluxes.... Leica is also ramping up production to meet demand, not just from M shooters, but from M4/3 and NEX/Fuji Compact APS-C shooters...prices will rise and fall, but we are in a bit of a lull at the moment...get while the gettin's good...
    Ashwin Rao
    Seattle, WA
    My Photography
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    60
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSUSpartan
    ...I think this is what life is like before the M9 right? ...I don't want to pay over Leica's already high MSRP for used lenses.
    Well, the current Summilux 35 was introduced after the M9, so there's no pricing to track from the M8 or film M era.

    As to paying whatever one will/should/must for Leica lenses, if you don't want to, then.....don't.

  6. #6
    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,265
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    I almost bought a mint 50/1.4 asph for $1200 when I was shooting my M6. I recently bought one new...

    We will see a resurgence in price gouging and general Leica madness if the M10 tickles the fancy of those who don't feel the M9 is 'quite there' enough for them.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    430
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    When you can buy a Rigid Summicron for $100, collapsible for $70, Canon 50/1.5 for $70, Nikkor 5cm F1.4 for $95, Collapsible Elmar 9cm F4 for $100, E48 90/2 Summicron for $200- prices will be back to what they were a few years ago. And a Leica IIIf with coated Elmar 5cm F3.5 for .... $50 at a camera shop.

    With the M9 monochrome... prices for Uncoated lenses will shoot through the roof.

  8. #8
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Jupiter FL/Atlanta GA
    Posts
    2,279
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Leica is limited in its ability to increase lens production . They have a number of production bottlenecks that constrain in particular the summilux lenses . Consider that (1) Leica product in August is typically reduced due to a summer shut down (2) Photokina will bring new lenses and demand from the more ardent Leica Fan Boys (me) and (3) the conversion to the new plant will drain resources and curtail production sometime in 2013.

    With that said there is some evidence that supports glass supplier issues that may have been resolved (blanks for summilux,noctilux lenses) .

    So just looking at the supply side it doesn t speak well for increased availability .

    From a demand standpoint ..how many new Leica M users are joining the market ? When the M10 comes we should see a burst in availability of M9 bodies ...but not the lenses as most will be due to upgrades where the owner keeps his Leica M glass.

    My forecast would be for another major lens availability short fall between now and this time next year. Maybe not like we saw earlier this year but lenses will be in short supply.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    2,056
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Roger makes very good points about the summer vacation shutdown/slowdown, etc.

    Speaking to lenses in stock I was at The Pro Shop in WPB, FL last Friday and I saw they had many M lenses in stock incuding the 24/1.4.

  10. #10
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    I agree with Roger.

    besides, one lens sale isn't necessarily a trend.

    BTW, the slower lenses have never been in short supply because they never sold well like the faster ASPH lenses.

    IMO, impatience is the main driver for over pricing. Some will pay more just to get a short supply M lens now.

    I sold off my 0.95 Nocti, made money on it after two years use, then waited for a new 50 Lux ASPH which I now use.

    I also think Leica's new luxury retail strategy, which includes exclusive retail outlets and boutiques, will suck up more product availability from the traditional dealer network. I would not expect the pricing structure to become sane in the coming years ... they are targeting buyers who don't care about price when it comes to status and prestige. Thus increased prices will be the more likely scenario ... the 50/2 ASPH is the first hint of whopper prices for future products. A $10,000 M10 would not surprise me ... and I also think some traditional M users may not opt to keep paying "prestige prices", so the notion that the market will be flooded with M9s may happen for a short time, then level off and stabilize.

    For that reason, I've tightened down my M9P system to something I can live with for a long time, and can make more sane decisions based on actual need as opposed to "Gotta Have It At Any Price" scenarios.

    -Marc

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    495
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    people are clearing out inventory for the upcoming M10. tulips will bloom again.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  12. #12
    Senior Member dude163's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    New Brunswick , Canada
    Posts
    1,111
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian S View Post
    When you can buy a Rigid Summicron for $100, collapsible for $70, Canon 50/1.5 for $70, Nikkor 5cm F1.4 for $95, Collapsible Elmar 9cm F4 for $100, E48 90/2 Summicron for $200- prices will be back to what they were a few years ago. And a Leica IIIf with coated Elmar 5cm F3.5 for .... $50 at a camera shop.

    With the M9 monochrome... prices for Uncoated lenses will shoot through the roof.

    Sniff


    I got into photography too late

  13. #13
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,594
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    I had always been at it (as a buyer) when there is a "bubble".

    Bought my R and M gear (no digital bodies) at the height of the "bubble".

    I do not think the prices will fall. If you take a look at the current primes from Zeiss, Olympus and the like they are actually rising.

    About the prediction above about uncoated lenses. I do not think they will do well on the MM. Even the latest with the greatest coatings will give fairly low contrast images on the MM. So, the uncoated ones would likely fare terribly.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Joe Colson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    North Carolina, USA
    Posts
    1,908
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    36

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    I just sold ten Leica lenses, an M9 and an M9-P on eBay, including one FLE, and have those data points to share. Prices for used lenses in the US are down 5-10% from late-2011, early-2012. In my opinion, it's not due to a Leica "bubble bursting" as much as it is due to a poor economic environment for luxury goods. Tiffany, Coach and other luxury brands are suffering the same fate. So I would characterize the current state as a "lull", as Ashwin stated, and would predict that as world economies recover, so too will prices for used Leica gear. Don't follow my lead. I'm seemingly in the "buy high, sell low" camp.

    Joe
    _________________________________
    Joe Colson Photography

  15. #15
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    rayyan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    5,887
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Bubbles, whether of tulips, Leica, real estate, gold etc., never really burst. They just move on to another place, another time and another sucker. Bubbles just mutate. Voracious, devouring..feeding on our vanities, our weaknesses.

    But we know we are neither vain nor weak; don't we?
    koffee & kamera
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  16. #16
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Jupiter FL/Atlanta GA
    Posts
    2,279
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    A new M will create a temporary peaking of demand . Used M9 s will increase as LFB trade up to the M10 . Leica makes about 1500 M bodies a month ...since a high percentage of these will go to existing owners ..expect that the used M9 will go increasingly to those without lenses . of course some serious $$$ will be taken out of circulation and this dampens demand for lenses . Net result will be similar but not as extreme as the M9 introduction.

    The new plant strategy went with all new equipment ....this is a big deal and why Leica could t increase capacity earlier for lens grinding . You rarely add new equipment to an old facility just to move it in a year . So lens production in Solms has pretty much peaked until late 2013.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Joe Colson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    North Carolina, USA
    Posts
    1,908
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    36

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    Bubbles, whether of tulips, Leica, real estate, gold etc., never really burst. They just move on to another place, another time and another sucker. Bubbles just mutate. Voracious, devouring..feeding on our vanities, our weaknesses.
    That's quite philosophical and poetic, but not pragmatic. Ask any owner of real estate in Phoenix or Las Vegas. Or ask anyone who owned shares in a US high tech company in 2001. Bubbles do burst, and some don't "move on" or "mutate". At least not in our lifetimes.

    The Leica lull is simply a reduction in (current) demand, reflected in a reduction in the price for used goods. Demand will increase as soon as perceived wealth increases. Supply and demand is a proven principle upon which you can rely.

    BTW, we're all vain and weak.

    Joe
    _________________________________
    Joe Colson Photography

  18. #18
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    3,848
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    China's economy is weakening, which was driving a lot of the Leica lens bubble last year. Leica boosted prices in January.

    Availability isn't really any better than it was before, it's the demand that is less.

    These are the primary factors with regards to new/recent Leica glass pricing. Some vintage glass continues to rise.

  19. #19
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    3,848
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    BTW the M9M's existence tells me than the M9 demand was trending substantially downward. The M9M release is a brilliant move: market a three year old camera with little incremental R&D to many people who already own essentially the same camera.

  20. #20
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    BTW the M9M's existence tells me than the M9 demand was trending substantially downward. The M9M release is a brilliant move: market a three year old camera with little incremental R&D to many people who already own essentially the same camera.
    I quite agree - although, there was a fair amount of R&D I think, but even so, a great move, much better than another cosmetic upgrade.

    As for the lenses - I think it's just a dip in demand which goes with declining m9 sales at the end of it's life cycle - not surprising, and as long as the M10 is a decent camera things are likely to turn right around.

    Just this guy you know

  21. #21
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    rayyan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    5,887
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Colson View Post
    That's quite philosophical and poetic, but not pragmatic. Ask any owner of real estate in Phoenix or Las Vegas. Or ask anyone who owned shares in a US high tech company in 2001. Bubbles do burst, and some don't "move on" or "mutate". At least not in our lifetimes.

    The Leica lull is simply a reduction in (current) demand, reflected in a reduction in the price for used goods. Demand will increase as soon as perceived wealth increases. Supply and demand is a proven principle upon which you can rely.

    BTW, we're all vain and weak.

    Joe
    Unfortunate for those living inthe region/s you mention. Real estate prices in other regions of the world were on the rise. As to the high tech companies, when they were falling others were climbing.

    Look at the price of gold then. It is down now from its highs, but way above 2001.

    Bubbles might burst in one region, only to rise in another. During this process, many individuals could/have suffered. Unfortunate, but not for the bubbles, but
    For those that get caught up in the frenzy.

    Even as I write, there are various price bubbles in different regions of the world.
    Just look where the designer outlets are rushing too. If not in region x, then in y.

    One does not realize that one is in a bubble..that is the beauty or sadness of the whole thing.

  22. #22
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    113
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Also consider price elasticity. Most Leica shooters... errr collectors... nowadays tend to be wealthy, and like everyone else, overvalue their own possessions. The difference that sets them apart from other brand loyalists is that they can afford to hold on to an item that decreased in value, determined that it is worth over what the demand calls for.

    A FLE is worth USD 4,750 now, but I bet you a lot of people are thinking that it is worth USD 5,500 or more still.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  23. #23
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,594
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSUSpartan View Post
    . Most Leica shooters... errr collectors... nowadays tend to be wealthy, and like everyone else, overvalue their own possessions.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Gary Clennan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    621
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSUSpartan View Post
    Also consider price elasticity. Most Leica shooters... errr collectors... nowadays tend to be wealthy, and like everyone else, overvalue their own possessions. The difference that sets them apart from other brand loyalists is that they can afford to hold on to an item that decreased in value, determined that it is worth over what the demand calls for.

    A FLE is worth USD 4,750 now, but I bet you a lot of people are thinking that it is worth USD 5,500 or more still.
    Oh lord - here we go again.... Next post up will be talking about Leica snobbery and how they continue to produce an inferior product. Having wealthy consumers is not the primary reason that Leica products continue to sell so well.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    430
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    I don't care who is buying them, as long as stay in business and continue to make the products that I like. Like the M9 monochrome.

    It's all about me, Baby.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  26. #26
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,594
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Clennan View Post
    Having wealthy consumers is not the primary reason that Leica products continue to sell so well.
    Who else can afford them?
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  27. #27
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,497
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    I think a single data point from an eBay sale really sums up the market. It means that one individual in the market bought one lens at a particular price. We can take that single fact and extrapolate it to mean that there are people who really don't know anything about statistics nor how to analyze information.

  28. #28
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    3,848
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    I'm curious how public policy relates to this thread.

  29. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    287
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I think a single data point from an eBay sale really sums up the market.
    I assume you mean that you "don't think.."? Nevertheless, I think this ebay sale is wholly in line with how demand seems to have gone out of the market. The heat went out some time ago and there no longer appears to be any appetite for paying over the odds for the flagship M lenses such as the 35 Summilux and 50 Noctilux. My personal view is that we are unlikely to see again the buying frenzy that started almost exactly a year ago. I guess various pressures (supply and the increasing hyping up of various lenses by a few online personalities) had been building for a while but the mania seemed to kick off last June when a 35 Summilux was listed (and apparently sold) for something like $8,500 in the classifieds in this forum. I can't see those sort of over RRP prices happening again apart from a few early listings for the APO 50 and (possibly) the M Monochrom.

  30. #30
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    113
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Agreed. The eBay listing was at least based on multiple bids. The Buy It Now listings with the lens for $5,500 are not selling.

    This is probably the first test of the REAL luxury market with electronics that becomes obsolete (with the bodies at least), I'm interested to see how the bodies hold up 5 years down the line. I don't see people shooting a M9 30 years down the line like they do with a M6.

    The lenses should hold up decently though since it's just glass. It doesn't hurt that Leica used lenses are usually pristine since they rarely are taken outdoors. Kidding... mostly.

  31. #31
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Some folks will pay a premium to be first. After a while the rareness and newness is gone, so prices settle down to MSRP, and used a bit less than that depending on how the supply may be on that specific lens.

    Nothing new about that.

    If Leica puts out a 28/1.4 ASPH, and trickles out three of them a month, there may be those who'll pay a premium for that also ... especially if they are first time M buyers because of the M10.

    Leica is treating lenses like DeBeers treats Diamonds ...

    -Marc
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  32. #32
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,927
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSUSpartan View Post
    A FLE just sold for USD 4,750 on eBay: Auction

    I think this is what life is like before the M9 right? Finally prices are back down to earthly levels (high rise penthouse, not walkups). I welcome this with open arms. I don't want to pay over Leica's already high MSRP for used lenses.
    What does FLE stand for?

    (Frankly, I don't care at all what Leica prices their stuff at, or how it's selling, or whether someone considers a Leica owner to be a snob, or any of that horsepucky. If I want it, and I can afford it, I buy it and use it. It's that simple.)

  33. #33
    Not Available
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    1,864
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Floating Lens Element(s).

  34. #34
    Senior Member Gary Clennan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    621
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Who else can afford them?
    People who save their money and/or make sacrifices in other area's to buy the goods. Not sure if you were joking or not but it is not only the rich who use Leica.... Although it still tends to be a strong (and untrue) stereotype.

  35. #35
    Senior Member 4season's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Colorado USA
    Posts
    518
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    I think some of this stuff, lenses in particular, was purchased as a sort of investment. Which isn't totally far-fetched given the USA real estate market, and lousy interest rates paid on regular savings and even Treasuries. And though a good part of 2011 it seemed it seemed to be working too.

  36. #36
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,927
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4season View Post
    I think some of this stuff, lenses in particular, was purchased as a sort of investment. Which isn't totally far-fetched given the USA real estate market, and lousy interest rates paid on regular savings and even Treasuries. And though a good part of 2011 it seemed it seemed to be working too.
    I don't know about anybody else, but I don't buy camera equipment to be an "investment." I buy it to use in making photographs. If I'm a professional, I'm not 'investing' in camera equipment either, I'm purchasing capital goods (tools) for use in my business (and I depreciate them as such).

    Does anyone on this photography forum 'invest' in camera equipment? Seems a very risky venture.

  37. #37
    Not Available
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    1,864
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Investing assumes you'll sell said goods. This is the problem I face. I only seem to accrue gear...

    I buy it to use and enjoy, and sure - make money with whenever possible. Invest in camera gear? Lenses might be worthwhile (at least Leica lenses) but anything digital? That would be... Dumb.

  38. #38
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,927
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post
    Investing assumes you'll sell said goods. This is the problem I face. I only seem to accrue gear...

    I buy it to use and enjoy, and sure - make money with whenever possible. Invest in camera gear? Lenses might be worthwhile (at least Leica lenses) but anything digital? That would be... Dumb.
    And as we can easily see, the returns on a long term investment in film camera bodies is pretty darn poor. ;-)

  39. #39
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4season View Post
    I think some of this stuff, lenses in particular, was purchased as a sort of investment. Which isn't totally far-fetched given the USA real estate market, and lousy interest rates paid on regular savings and even Treasuries. And though a good part of 2011 it seemed it seemed to be working too.
    Quite right - I have quite a lot of leica lenses, I bought them to take pictures with (okay Godfrey) . . . but I couldn't possibly have excused the expense without some idea that they would hold their value pretty well. In the current financial climate they're probably as safe as any other investment, and safer than some.

    After all, the cost of owning a lens is the cost of the depreciation when you sell it, and sensibly bought Leica lenses don't depreciate.

    Camera bodies - Oh No! . . . well, ordinary digital camera bodies at least!

    Just this guy you know

  40. #40
    Senior Member 4season's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Colorado USA
    Posts
    518
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    And as we can easily see, the returns on a long term investment in film camera bodies is pretty darn poor. ;-)
    Yes, just awful:
    Leica mp-36 News, Videos, Reviews and Gossip - Gizmodo

    1923 Leica 0-series becomes world's most expensive camera, fetches $1.89 million at auction -- Engadget
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

  41. #41
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    113
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    And yes, we should start collecting toast and cheese.

    Grilled Cheese

    In all seriousness, I doubt my MP in 10 years will be worth much more than what it is worth today.... and my M9, I'm glad I sold it late last year before it dropped anymore. When they hit sub 4K I might buy another one, and I probably don't have to wait too long.

  42. #42
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,594
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Clennan View Post
    People who save their money and/or make sacrifices in other area's to buy the goods. Not sure if you were joking or not but it is not only the rich who use Leica.... Although it still tends to be a strong (and untrue) stereotype.
    I can not be more serious. There was no need to be joking as it is a fact. If you deny it, perhaps you are living in Utopia.

    Photography itself isn't for the poor. Leica certainly isn't for the lower income groups, even in the most affluent societies.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  43. #43
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,927
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Yup. One person made a little money on that O-series. And some collector really liked Leif's reputation.

    Do you also play the lottery? I think it has better odds of a payoff. ;-)

  44. #44
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,927
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Quite right - I have quite a lot of leica lenses, I bought them to take pictures with (okay Godfrey) . . . but I couldn't possibly have excused the expense without some idea that they would hold their value pretty well. ...
    I'll respectfully disagree with that strategy. I have never looked at the expense of buying a high end lens with any notion of whether it was going to be worth something in the future—I look at the expense of buying a high end lens in the context of what it is that I think the lens will do for my photography.

    I only consider what the residual value of a lens might be after I'm done with it, find it in the way, and figure out what I can get for it when I off it on the market. Banking on the value to persist is foolish from an investment point of view, but by and large good equipment holds its value well as others value its functionality and quality.

  45. #45
    Senior Member Gary Clennan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    621
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I can not be more serious. There was no need to be joking as it is a fact. If you deny it, perhaps you are living in Utopia.

    Photography itself isn't for the poor. Leica certainly isn't for the lower income groups, even in the most affluent societies.
    Not sure exactly which source provided you with his supposed "factual" information. Send me a link as I need a good laugh today. You are one of the few spreading false information that Leica is only for the rich. I'm not wealthy nor rich but yet I own some Leica gear. How on earth could this happen? Once again - if you think only the wealthy buy Leica, you have a lot to learn... Having said this - I know what you are about Vivek and you are likely just stirring the pot so to speak.
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  46. #46
    Subscriber and Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,790
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I don't know about anybody else, but I don't buy camera equipment to be an "investment." I buy it to use in making photographs. If I'm a professional, I'm not 'investing' in camera equipment either, I'm purchasing capital goods (tools) for use in my business (and I depreciate them as such).

    Does anyone on this photography forum 'invest' in camera equipment? Seems a very risky venture.
    My first Leica purchase was in 1986...have been through and around the camera bodies and lenses too many times to count...

    However, I have thousands of pictures that bring to mind moments of magic, pathos and angst which would have been forgotten without the medium...that is a worthwhile investment.

    Do not ask me about the Windfarm I 'invested' in about 1986...serious tax writeoffs that I still a attempting to forget.

    Bob

  47. #47
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Jupiter FL/Atlanta GA
    Posts
    2,279
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Residual value is an important factor in the cost of ownership . Sure its a cost but when an item holds value ..it makes getting on to the uber utopian lens require less cash. Look at the Nikon bodies for example . I bought a D700 for about $2500.. used it for two years and sold it for $2000. Or a D3s I paid $5200 and sold it for $4100 after 18 months . Those were late life cycle purchases and I made no attempt to sell when the going was good. I now have 2 D800E bodies at $3300 each ....my guess is these will still be well above $2000 in three years . It doesn t drive my decisions but I know a lot of photographers can only justify upgrades if the invested cost of the equipment is partially recouped . Add in the possible tax advantages to a professional (that makes money ) and the cost might even smaller .

    Most of my Leica M glass will sell for more than I paid for it . So I don t mind having a few extra lenses...no so with my Leica bodies where we take a bath every time a new model is released .
    Roger Dunham
    http://rogerdunham.com/
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  48. #48
    Subscriber and Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,790
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Clennan View Post
    spreading false information that Leica is only for the rich.....you are likely just stirring the pot so to speak.
    Gary,

    I believe that you may be on to something...stirring.....

    However the quote itself is not inaccurate:

    Photography itself isn't for the poor. Leica certainly isn't for the lower income groups, even in the most affluent societies

    This does not assume in my mind it is only for the rich...as I am far from that but I have over the years put much of my discretionary funds into Leica/Hasselblad/Contax equipment. The returns have been outstanding...perhaps not in the mind of my accountant...but my vision and outlook have matured over the last 30 years.

    The POOR are ever with us...not something that is addressed adequately in this discussion....as I have spent the past 20 years doing relief work in a number of very destitute places I can agree that photography is not for the poor...although even they have benefited from it..consider the efforts of Sebastião Salgado.

    In my mind the Leica bubble is imaginary...over my 30 years experience the prices have remained very stable...bodies only a vehicle to display the produce...glass.

    Bob
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  49. #49
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,927
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Residual value is an important factor in the cost of ownership . ...
    Cost of ownership is something my accountant becomes concerned about, but more particularly when it comes to owning things that commit you to consumables and periodic expenditures (fuel, film, insurance, etc). ;-)

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Most of my Leica M glass will sell for more than I paid for it . So I don t mind having a few extra lenses...no so with my Leica bodies where we take a bath every time a new model is released .
    In all the years I worked with film Ms, the only real reasons to upgrade the body were caprice and whimsy. I mean, really, how big a difference is there between an M4-2 and an MP other than the obvious built-in meter and AE metering? And the fact that it's a couple of decades newer?

    Lenses - well, I never "upgraded" any of my lenses. I simply bought what I thought would work well, and bought something else when I found I needed or wanted it.

    I feel the same way about the M8, M9 and upcoming models. I almost bought the M8, decided on the M9 for the larger format and a few other details ... I'll likely be using it still when the M11 comes out, if I live that long, presuming that I don't immediately have some desperate need for a new feature that it finally has. I can't see that happening.

    So why take a bath, financially speaking, every time a new model is released? And if there is some advantageous reason for upgrading to a new model, well, IMO it should pay you for that upgrade in improved sales, better jobs, etc.

  50. #50
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Leica price bubble finally bursting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I'll respectfully disagree with that strategy. I have never looked at the expense of buying a high end lens with any notion of whether it was going to be worth something in the future—I look at the expense of buying a high end lens in the context of what it is that I think the lens will do for my photography.
    Well, Godfrey - that's you - I do that as well . . . it's just that I don't ONLY do that!
    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I only consider what the residual value of a lens might be after I'm done with it, find it in the way, and figure out what I can get for it when I off it on the market. Banking on the value to persist is foolish from an investment point of view, but by and large good equipment holds its value well as others value its functionality and quality.
    I never said I was 'banking on it' - I just think that amongst the risks available today it's a decent one. Of course, if they do lose value then there are tax benefits as well.
    In my experience (surely not a statistically valid sample) I have never lost money on a Leica lens - Nothing to be proud of, just a fact. On the other hand, I can honestly say I've never made money buying and selling shares (possibly something to be ashamed of). As Bob points out, I also have thousands of photos, which certainly have a value to me.

    Back to my original point - the idea of buying a Leica 50 0.95 simply as a disposable is not really tenable for me(which, presumably, is why you haven't bought one). On the other hand, if I sold mine now for a reasonably low price, I'd have made about 15% per annum since I bought it. I'm not planning to sell it (I love using it, and use it a lot), and I don't need to sell it - but I do consider it part of my 'assets', and as such it's an investment of a kind. . . . just like my house . . . the Nocti is actually a bad example - my WATE is currently worth about 2.1/2 times what I paid for it. I bought it to take pictures with - and I keep it to take pictures with, I hope I never need to sell it, but if I do, then I'll probably make a decent return.

    There are lots of things I also spend money on which I definitely consider as disposables - cars are a perfect example (yellow ones and sports cars especially so! - we're both guilty).

    Just this guy you know
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •