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Thread: m10 liveview

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    m10 liveview

    if the m10 is to have liveveiw, is there any chance that the m will lose the optical viewfinder?

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    Senior Member JimCollum's Avatar
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    Re: m10 liveview

    Quote Originally Posted by gooomz View Post
    if the m10 is to have liveveiw, is there any chance that the m will lose the optical viewfinder?
    there's a chance.. but then they know they'd lose the entire M installed base as customers for the M10

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    Re: m10 liveview

    if there is little chance, then why all the uproar about not to have liveveiw and an electronic viewfinder, or are these things m shooters really want?


    just wondering.

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    Re: m10 liveview

    I suppose they might consider a rangefinder with some form of electronic assist. Liveview is possible with evf or without. Mainly a cmos sensor or if noisy and slow live view, then ccd is I suppose possible.
    -bob

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    Re: m10 liveview

    I think Leica will test the waters with the M10 and it's combined rangefinder and add on EVF. If it bombs (high price, add on EVF a kluge, larger and heavier body) then who knows about the future of the M.

    As for me I will continue to happily capture images with my M9s.

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    Re: m10 liveview

    There are some, like me, who gave up the M due to strong astigmatism.
    If they do as little as electronic focus confirmation, they stand a chance of getting us back.
    But form factor has got to be very close to the M9 for it to be an M.
    -bob

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    Re: m10 liveview

    i have yet to see a focusing improvement for the rf M to be embraced by the Mbase. and I have one of those gravity directed astigmatism optics on my M8

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    Re: m10 liveview

    I feel the M10 is going to have more in common with the M5 than with the M9. Leica is going to try to cram in as much of last year's technology as possible in an attempt to please everyone while destroying the ergonomics of the M9, which had already pushed the form factor to the limit (IMHO).

    There is no way I would mount that god awful X2 EVF on my M9-P, and if that is what Leica is thinking for an even larger bodied M10 then I believe they will well and truly miss the mark. When an M10 becomes the size of a DSLR what's the point?

    I would rather see Leica introduce a new body that only has built in eye level electronic viewfinder (no rangefinder) and uses manual focus M lenses while keeping the M9 in production. That's a camera I would purchase.

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    Member moreammo's Avatar
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    Re: m10 liveview

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    There are some, like me, who gave up the M due to strong astigmatism.
    If they do as little as electronic focus confirmation, they stand a chance of getting us back.
    But form factor has got to be very close to the M9 for it to be an M.
    -bob
    Very interesting, i actually use an M9 because of my astigmatism. i can't focus a non rangefinder to save my life but i can still line up the two images i do use my left eye instead of my right eye since my right is worse.

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    Re: m10 liveview

    Quote Originally Posted by moreammo View Post
    Very interesting, i actually use an M9 because of my astigmatism. i can't focus a non rangefinder to save my life but i can still line up the two images i do use my left eye instead of my right eye since my right is worse.
    My problem is monocular diplopia. Basically I see a slight double image all the time. OTOH I have no problem looking at a ground glass and focusing. The image matching in the rf patch is just about impossible for me.
    broke my heart LOL
    -bob

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    Re: m10 liveview

    look here for something that allows the correcting optic to rotate as you change from landscape to portrait
    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/leica-...ce-review.html

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    Re: m10 liveview

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    My problem is monocular diplopia. Basically I see a slight double image all the time. OTOH I have no problem looking at a ground glass and focusing. The image matching in the rf patch is just about impossible for me.
    broke my heart LOL
    -bob
    I bet it did, it would mine.

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    Re: m10 liveview

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    look here for something that allows the correcting optic to rotate as you change from landscape to portrait
    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/leica-...ce-review.html
    now that's cool, i may need to look into one of those

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    Re: m10 liveview

    If I had to take a guess and leica did incorporate live view with the M10, I believe at most they would still have the traditional viewfinder and possibly offer a optional EVF and some other newly developed features. In other words, still have the basic premise of a traditional M body (such as the M9), but incorporate new technology. If by some chance they went beyond this and abandoned the traditional M body and thus take a chance of loosing their current core users, then I would assume that either the M9-P would still remain in production or at the same time (or shortly thereafter), a updated M9 type body would be offered but incorporating the new CMOS sensor that the new M10 will be using. Since the new Monochrom M will be in production, its likely the current M9-P will still remain available, but who really knows at this point.

    I therefore could see this non traditional M10 offered concurrently along side a more traditional M9 type body. I would though like to see an adjustable diopter incorporated as part of the design of future M digitals..something that I personally believe is sorely lacking.

    Sales of these two different bodies, would eventually dicate which direction things would develop for the future bodies. Interesting times ahead, thats for sure. Now where is that winning lottery ticket when I need one

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: m10 liveview

    I really don't care about live view.
    All I want is a focus confirmation dot in the viewfinder that is in an area approximately where the rf patch is. Oh, and it would be very nice if there were accrue frame lines.
    If only Leica made a "Leica" similar to the Fujifilm X100 but with more "Leica-ness"
    -bob

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    Re: m10 liveview

    The only electronics I'd like to see in the M10 are the nice frame lines that are in the M9 Titanium, shutter speed, aperture and maybe ISO. I have a couple of stand-ins, GXR and NEX 5n with EVFs and I can hardly wait to replace them with a nice Leica RF patch and a full frame sensor.

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    Re: m10 liveview

    I wouldn't mind live view at all. Would allow for longer lenses and macro. Would make astro work feasible too (if they allow canceling long exposure NR). That plus focus confirm. But all of that is feasible while retaining the optical rangefinder too.
    Alan

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    Re: m10 liveview

    Quote Originally Posted by StephenPatterson View Post
    I feel the M10 is going to have more in common with the M5 than with the M9. Leica is going to try to cram in as much of last year's technology as possible in an attempt to please everyone while destroying the ergonomics of the M9, which had already pushed the form factor to the limit (IMHO).

    There is no way I would mount that god awful X2 EVF on my M9-P, and if that is what Leica is thinking for an even larger bodied M10 then I believe they will well and truly miss the mark. When an M10 becomes the size of a DSLR what's the point?

    I would rather see Leica introduce a new body that only has built in eye level electronic viewfinder (no rangefinder) and uses manual focus M lenses while keeping the M9 in production. That's a camera I would purchase.
    Has there actually been confirmation from Leica that there is going to be an M10 anytime soon? I was thinking, why would Leica introduce the MM on the M9 platform if an improved camera was going to to be introduced in a couple of months? My guess Is there will be no new M digital or just make minor but expensive upgrades to the M9 like larger and faster buffer and retina quality LCD. Nikon did a buffer upgrade several years ago. Leica could get an extra $1250-/1500 for this.

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    Re: m10 liveview

    People already use clunky external VF for wide angle... so I don't see any problem with an detachable EVF that will replace that functionality, and more! It could provide proper framelines for wide angles, enlarge VF for telephoto lens, and of course, have some sort of focus confirmation. With that said, not for me, YET, since I don't have lenses on the two extreme ends, but it would be a nice option if I do go wider or longer.

    $0.02
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    Re: m10 liveview

    There has been no official announcement from Leica, and there will not be until Photokina, but the M10 is in the field now in the hands of testers ahead of the official release next month. Even back in January I was talking with a Leica blogger who had direct knowledge of the EVF/Optical Rangefinder combination. The Leica community is pretty small, and information tends to leak out, especially when a new announcement is only a few weeks away.

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    Re: m10 liveview

    Can't say I'm a huge fan of live-view. The only time I use live-view is when I'm double stacking extenders on my C***n 5D2 w/ 300/2.8 to achieve a 840mm effective focal length for wildlife. I initially got the 5D2 for increased resolution (migrated from the 30D) and the HD video capabilities but soon found out that I rarely shot video or used live-view. These days the 5D2 is relegated to deep-sky night photography and wildlife, the rest of the time (95-98%) I use the M8.2 for its speed (I generally zone focus) and its portabilty (weight makes a huge difference in the mountains where I cover 12-18km with over 1000m of elevation gain in various terrain in a day).

    With that being said, if Leica decided to put in live view, I won't complain. Personally, I won't be using it much but the mere presence of live-view does not detract from the M-ness of the camera. Moreover, I can't see why adding live-view will increase the size of the camera with exception of adding an add-on EVF. Even if there was an optional EVF, it wouldn't make much sense to allow live view to work on the existing main LCD.

    From an M8 user standpoint, the key things I want to see in an M10 are:
    - decent/usable ISO 12800
    - improved battery life
    - higher resolution LCD that works well in broad daylight
    in that order above.

    Other nice to have features would just be gravy:
    - I wouldn't complain about an increasing resolution to 24-36MP since the lenses can resolve it and SD cards are dirt cheap, as are hard drives
    - Video is nice since I don't need to carry a little point and shoot for the off chance that I want a little bit of video
    - Live view is probably a given, how it is executed remains to be seen; having the option is nice but I'll still be using the optical viewfinder 99% of the time

    If we're lucky, Leica will use the same olympus compatible EVF and we can just buy the olympus version at 1/3rd the price. Since Leica is a small company with limited development resource, I suspect they'll just use the same EVF as the X2 which means we'll most likely be able to use the olympus version. As nice as the hybrid viewfinder is, I don't think Leica has the resources to completely redesign the RF optics.

    When Leica created the M8, they had limited resources and so they stuck to what they already knew - using the existing RF optics design, using the same shutter as the R8/R9. They didn't have the expertise to do the electronics so they outsourced the signal processing and electronics design to Jenoptik.

    When it came time to create an M9, Leica decided to minimize risk by changing very little of the M8 and only added a bigger sensor while still outsourcing the signal processing and electronics design to Jenoptik. Admittedly, during the development of the M9, they were also working on the X1 and S2 and didn't have much resources left to put an M9 together in house. In order to minimize risk and ensure that the M9 would be launched on time, they focused mainly on improvements that can be performed externally (by Jenoptik and Kodak).

    With the S3 rumoured to be announced and the X2 only recently released, I suspect Leica will once again outsource M10 development to Jenoptik. Afterall, they've developed a good business relationship with Jenoptik an Jenoptik has gained a fair bit of expertise over the years working on the M8 and M9 (and probably the M monocrhrome). As such, I can't see that relationship changing. What might change is that Leica might decide to integrate a new Maestro processor in the M10 since they've now gained the expertise in that arena through the S2 development. Some of the Maestro work can be easily ported to the M9. Infact, it would not surprise me at all if much of the live-view implementation (and maybe focus assist/confirmation) will have come straight from the X2 development work.

    Both from a business standpoint and from a technical standpoint, it makes sense to economize on development from previous project. It would also not surprise me if Leica reused the 3.0 inch LCD introduced on the S2 or the 2.7 inch LCD found on the X2. Doing so reduces risk in both development and sourcing of parts; it also allows Leica to keep inventory of parts that can be shared across several different products.
    Last edited by BeeWee; 7th August 2012 at 20:51.

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    Re: m10 liveview

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    I really don't care about live view.
    All I want is a focus confirmation dot in the viewfinder that is in an area approximately where the rf patch is. Oh, and it would be very nice if there were accrue frame lines.
    If only Leica made a "Leica" similar to the Fujifilm X100 but with more "Leica-ness"
    -bob
    I too would love a focus confirmation indicator in the viewfinder and always wondered why Leica hadn't incorporated it some time ago, even prior the the M8. I think it couldn have been done in a way that wouldn't have altered the traditional rangefinder experience nor traditional functionality.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: m10 liveview

    Quote Originally Posted by DDudenbostel View Post
    Has there actually been confirmation from Leica that there is going to be an M10 anytime soon? I was thinking, why would Leica introduce the MM on the M9 platform if an improved camera was going to to be introduced in a couple of months? My guess Is there will be no new M digital or just make minor but expensive upgrades to the M9 like larger and faster buffer and retina quality LCD. Nikon did a buffer upgrade several years ago. Leica could get an extra $1250-/1500 for this.
    Leica is a small company compared to the giants like Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, Sony, Apple, etc... We're talking a $300 million/yr revenue on a record breaking year; compare this to the giants that pull in $x-xx billion/yr revenue. Leica doesn't have the volumes like Apple to adopt new technolgies and get firesale pricing like Apple. When Apple designs for a new part, that development cost is spread over tens of millions of units. Likewise, when they source a new part, they can command firesale prices because they buy in such massive volumes. Moreover, Apple has been known to invest huge amounts of money ($billions) into other companies to ensure their parts providers can meet the production volumes Apple needs. Leica has none of these advantages.

    The M9 made sense because it was a platform that both Leica and Jenoptik knew well and one that was mature enough that Leica can throw together as a side project without incurring huge development costs. The MM was something that photographers have been asking for, for a number of years and so Leica seized the opportunity to put it together. It's similar to creating limited editions of an existing M in order to sustain a product's volume towards the end of a product's design life cycle.

    Every company that has a somewhat predictable development cycle will suffer a drop in sales of their products when their customers expect that a new model will be released soon. This is the same for computers, cars, and phones. A strategy that Leica has played well in over the years is to make use of the volume that is freed up by decrease in demand for a given product towards the end of its product cycle and dedicate some of that production volume to special editions. We saw this with the Hermes editions, the MM, and the Titanium.

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    Re: m10 liveview

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    I too would love a focus confirmation indicator in the viewfinder and always wondered why Leica hadn't incorporated it some time ago, even prior the the M8. I think it couldn have been done in a way that wouldn't have altered the traditional rangefinder experience nor traditional functionality.

    Dave (D&A)
    To get focus confirmation requires a focus detection sensor and a means to direct light that travels through the lens to the sensor. To do this, Leica would need a mirror of some sort which is out of the question for M optics since the rear element of some lenses sit just millimetres away from the film/sensor plane.

    Canon has done something interesting in the most recent Rebel T4i in that they've embedded some of their AF sensors into the CMOS. This is what allows the Rebel to AF while in video recording mode. Being Canon, I suspect they have a number of patents for using this technique. I'm not sure how much money Leica would want to pay Canon for using their patents to do the same thing. Moreover, it's not just a matter of licensing patents, it's also requires Leica to find sensors or customize sensors with embedded AF sensors. The only way I see this happening is if Leica actually buys sensors from Canon directly since Leica doesn't have the sensor development expertise to pull of something on that scale themselves.

    The only other option for Leica is to use contrast detect which is what every other point and shoot, EVIL and DSLR uses right now. However, until now, Leica has been using CCDs which does not play well with live-view since CCDs tend to heat up quite quickly and they tend to be a fair bit more power hungry compared to CMOS.

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    Re: m10 liveview

    Phase detection cells are also present in the sensor used by the Nikon 1 cameras. If Leica goes the hybrid optical/evf path, they are going to have to switch over to electronic first curtain and mechanical second. If they go full EVF, they might disillusion many users but it would open up a lot of possibilities. They could use that new French designed 5Mpx EVF announced at CES. Both of these would be a radical departure for Leica in the M-space. If conservative heads win out they will most likely keep their present mechanical rangefinder (maybe adding the bits from the M9Ti) and have live view on the rear display upping the image quality of the rear display. The M10 is reported to be CMOS based and the largest CMOS fabs are Sony's. Wouldn't be a huge stretch to tack on the display used by the NEX-7 on the back of the M10.
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    Re: m10 liveview

    I think the big challange for Leica is to move forward and include innovations in the M10 but to also keep it simple and in line with previous range finders.
    Thus I dont expect more evolution than revolution.

    What would I like to have if I could choose?
    - exp time and f-stop in the viewfinder, also when using manual
    - sensor cleaning
    - a little more weather resistance
    - a little better high ISO
    - live view wouldnt hurt- for me just on the display if I want to use the camera overhead or in low position (I dont like EVF much)
    - nicer and scratch resistent display

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    Re: m10 liveview

    Quote Originally Posted by gooomz View Post
    if the m10 is to have liveveiw, is there any chance that the m will lose the optical viewfinder?
    This has been heavily discussed on the LUF.

    It is pretty much a foregone conclusion that the next M digital will sport a CMOS sensor (which Leica itself has gone on record as being their future), plus they will retain the optical rangefinder focusing system.

    So, CMOS opens up the real possibility and probability of live view on a much better LCD, and an add-on EVF. This also allows the choice of not using either if one is more a purist.

    The "Tug-of-War" that is often the point of contentious discussion is one between retaining the more simple, spontaneous and specialized rangefinder way of seeing and making images, and turning the M into a Swiss-Army knife to please more people while meeting competitive developments from smaller type cameras flooding the market.

    Having seen Leica's long term marketing plan, I'd bet competitive aspects are less important to Leica no matter what we may feel personally. They are going where the money is, and their entire retail strategy confirms this. High prices and lean availability to keep prices high, coupled with a different buying environment to promote higher status aspects associated with the brand.

    The Leica gestalt is based on a heritage of image making strengthened by current and historical greats of the rangefinder way of seeing, and being a renowned optical company. It is not only one that perpetuates current Leicaphiles dedication to the brand, it is a concept easily understood by the monied target consumers that are used to brands with a similar gestalt, in fact demand it.

    Therefore I seriously doubt the M will abandon what makes it unique, nor will it chase pixel count and it's dubious effect on spontaneous rangefinder work. However, many improvements can be made without effecting the whole gestalt thing.

    Improved pixel quality, not necessarily mega more pixels. (I predict 24 meg FF or less, to keep the M off a tripod as much as possible)

    CMOS, if they do it right and deliver at least the image qualities inherent with the current M9 CCD.

    Vastly improved Sapphire LCD read-out with the ancillary option of using live view or even a EVF. This may or may not incorporate touch screen ... but either way wouldn't effect the rangefinder experience IMO.

    Built-in diopter ... especially a step-less one or a finely honed step version.

    More robust build and electronic protection, with at least some weather sealing.

    Improved operational speed.

    -Marc
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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: m10 liveview

    If he M10 has LV then actually Leica could at least easily add CDAF focus assist to their OVF rangefinder. Or leave this complicated RF part out and create maybe a cheaper version?

    Anyway RF calibration would become a thing of the past, which would definitely help the M design to survive and get even more acceptance in the future!

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    Re: m10 liveview

    Quote Originally Posted by gooomz View Post
    if the m10 is to have liveveiw, is there any chance that the m will lose the optical viewfinder?
    No. The lessons of the M5 are part of the Company's DNA.

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    Re: m10 liveview

    Why sapphire as the base for the LCD cover? Corning Gorilla Glass can do the same job at a fraction of the cost. Reserve the sapphire glass to special editions or something.
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    Re: m10 liveview

    Quote Originally Posted by StephenPatterson View Post
    I think Leica will test the waters with the M10 and it's combined rangefinder and add on EVF. If it bombs (high price, add on EVF a kluge, larger and heavier body) then who knows about the future of the M.
    You're not the first one to point out that the M10 may have a body even larger than the M8 and M9. What is Leica thinking? I'd prefer smaller, like the older film Ms. (I know that may be hard with FF digital.) In fact, a larger M10 will definitely make it a no-go for me. Heck, FF DSLRs keep getting smaller ... and Leica wants to make digital Ms larger?!
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    Re: m10 liveview

    I would like to see:

    Live view, its about time.
    Focus Peaking.
    Tilt screen Sony style, that can be locked on the body.
    RF Focussing.
    Better metering please.
    Better CA correction for older lenses.
    1/8000 Shutter - for fast lenses.
    ISO 100 native, pull to 50 ISO.
    Electronic frame lines

    All of this could be accomplished without deviating from the M experience. For those that don't want a feature, just turn it off.
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    Re: m10 liveview

    Quote Originally Posted by ramosa View Post
    You're not the first one to point out that the M10 may have a body even larger than the M8 and M9. What is Leica thinking? I'd prefer smaller, like the older film Ms. (I know that may be hard with FF digital.) In fact, a larger M10 will definitely make it a no-go for me. Heck, FF DSLRs keep getting smaller ... and Leica wants to make digital Ms larger?!
    There are inherent limitations to how big you can make the M10 before you run into problems with the RF optics. When Leica took the existing RF optics to put on the M8, they had to make the M8 body thicker than the film bodies due to the thickness of the sensor and LCD. To accomodate the thicker body, the M8/9 viewfinder is actually the same as the 0.58x viewfinder found on the film bodies, but because of the extra thickness, the effective magnification became 0.68x. This is why there are no 0.58x viewfinders for the M8/9.

    If Leica wanted to offer a 0.58x viewfinder on the M10, they would either need to make the body thinner, or redesign the RF optics. On the otherhand, if Leica made the M10 any thicker, they would have to redesign the RF optics to maintain 0.68x or otherwise be forced to use a 0.72x magnification. However, the moment you go to 0.72x magnification, you lose the ability to use 28mm frame lines on the viewfinder, meaning the widest lens you can use without an add-on viewfinder is a 35mm lens. That would never happen unless Leica starts selling glass with goggles again.

    So to answer your question, it would be highly unlikely (almost suicidal) for Leica to make the body any thicker unless they are willing to completely redesign the existing RF optics, which in and of itself is a massive undertaking.

    Moreover, Leica understands the RF community and they do listen to the community's opinions. They know form factor is a big concern for RF users so I'm sure making the camera bigger will be the last thing they want to do.

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    Re: m10 liveview

    Given Leica's record in anything electronic and software, I'll stay away until they work out all the bugs.

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    Re: m10 liveview

    Quote Originally Posted by yatlee View Post
    Given Leica's record in anything electronic and software, I'll stay away until they work out all the bugs.
    While I tend to agree that "the leading edge is the bleeding edge", and certainly the M8 and M9 have worked through several issues (UV/IR, SD Cards) the in house (mostly) development of the S2 gives me cause for optimism. I still don't plan to be an early adopter of the M10, for numerous reasons I have already posted, but I am keeping my fingers crossed.

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    Re: m10 liveview

    Quote Originally Posted by gooomz View Post
    if the m10 is to have liveveiw, is there any chance that the m will lose the optical viewfinder?
    Without an optical/mechanical viewfinder . . .would it be an M?

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: m10 liveview

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Without an optical/mechanical viewfinder . . .would it be an M?
    Jono, what's in a name? That which we call a rose
    by any other name would smell as sweet (with apologies to Mr. Shakespeare).

    The German word Messsucher is a combination of the word Mess (for measure) and Sucher (for viewfinder). It seems to me that this same word could be applied to any viewfinder which gives range or framing information. Just a thought

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    Re: m10 liveview

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Without an optical/mechanical viewfinder . . .would it be an M?
    IMHO, NO!

    -Marc

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    Re: m10 liveview

    Quote Originally Posted by StephenPatterson View Post
    Jono, what's in a name? That which we call a rose
    by any other name would smell as sweet (with apologies to Mr. Shakespeare).

    The German word Messsucher is a combination of the word Mess (for measure) and Sucher (for viewfinder). It seems to me that this same word could be applied to any viewfinder which gives range or framing information. Just a thought
    The Contax G was touted as the next thing in rangefinders, yet it wasn't one in most rangefinder users eyes. The M lives on, the Contax G is gone.

    I think Leica used their optical expertise to defined it, and it has yet to be topped.

    Related question or observation ... could it be that the push to diversify the M useage with a broader array of focal lengths may have led to some current issues with the rangefinder focusing?

    If Leica includes Live View and even an EFV on a M10, could they then return to the magnificent finder of the M3 (0.91) or perhaps at least a better base closer to it that includes the 35 fov as defined by the viewer frame edges. No need for lens goggles or separate clip-ons for each focal length if one has the other viewing options for 28mm and wider.

    I'd buy that configuration in a New York heartbeat and even put up with an EVF for 28, 24 and 21mm ... heck, I still use the old 21/24/28 bullet finder now so I don't have to take time swapping out finders, not to mention that it takes diopters, and the other dedicated ones do not.

    Just a thought.

    -Marc

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    Re: m10 liveview

    Leica remove the rangefinder from the M line? Geez, Leica can't even change the look without customers complaining--remember the M5, one of the best film Leicas made and it bombed.

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