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Thread: Returned M8 Maze Pattern - faulty sensor?

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    Returned M8 Maze Pattern - faulty sensor?

    HI There
    I took a few shots today, and this one sprung out at me - I know one can sometimes expect moire, but I haven't seen that maze pattern since the very early days . . . is it a faulty sensor?



    this is the original




    it was taken with the Zeiss 25mm

    So, is it just moire that one sometimes gets, or is it a faulty sensor?

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    Re: Returned M8 Maze Pattern - faulty sensor?

    Jono -

    If it's the color banding in the roof of the cottage that you're referring to, it looks to me like classic moire. The downside of no AA filter.

    What experiences have people had with software fixes for moires? (This one is fairly easy - desaturate the roof in PS - but some of them are much more difficult).

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    Re: Returned M8 Maze Pattern - faulty sensor?

    The capture one moire filter does a fair to middling job.
    One might also shoot with a softer lens :-)
    -bob

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    Re: Returned M8 Maze Pattern - faulty sensor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    Jono -

    If it's the color banding in the roof of the cottage that you're referring to, it looks to me like classic moire. The downside of no AA filter.

    What experiences have people had with software fixes for moires? (This one is fairly easy - desaturate the roof in PS - but some of them are much more difficult).
    Hi Woody
    thanks for chipping in
    It isn't the moire pattern - I can deal with that quite easily with the Aperture tool (and it's rare anyway). it's the maze pattern on the roof. Here is a 500% crop:


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    Re: Returned M8 Maze Pattern - faulty sensor?

    I don't have an M8, but... that's exactly what you can get when you don't have an AA filter in front of the sensor. Perfect example of aliasing and moiré.

    And yes, I'm talking about the color banding *and* the maze pattern.

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    Re: Returned M8 Maze Pattern - faulty sensor?

    Thank you Tim
    I had pretty much came to the same conclusion - I have seen it before, but a long long time ago (the M8 does pretty well with moire anyway).

    Aliasing - right - I'll relax!

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    Re: Returned M8 Maze Pattern - faulty sensor?

    Jono:

    I think that is pretty classic "color moire" and as Tim states is one of the downsides of no AA filter. The other sad fact is that while pattern moire is relatively easy to deal with, color moire is not -- usually requires altering the angle of the sensor slightly at capture to avoid it...
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    Re: Returned M8 Maze Pattern - faulty sensor?

    Jono, Do you see this with other lenses (I doubt it)?

    I also think it is aliasing because the Zeiss 25mm is too sharp for the M8 sensor.

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    Re: Returned M8 Maze Pattern - faulty sensor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Jono:

    I think that is pretty classic "color moire" and as Tim states is one of the downsides of no AA filter. The other sad fact is that while pattern moire is relatively easy to deal with, color moire is not -- usually requires altering the angle of the sensor slightly at capture to avoid it...
    Thanks Jack
    as I say, it's one (unimportant) shot, and I haven't seen it otherwise for a long time. One get's paranoid with M8's after they've been back to Leica!
    Thanks for joining in
    all the best

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    Re: Returned M8 Maze Pattern - faulty sensor?

    Jono,not to worry,the owner of the cottage is a cornish rugby supporter and hes painted the roof,KERNOW!!!!!_____ regards,Neil.
    p.s.I think my "hello" from cornwall has just arrived,my accent is thick with rrrrrrrs all of a sudden!
    Last edited by nei1; 5th November 2008 at 12:18.

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    Re: Returned M8 Maze Pattern - faulty sensor?

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    Jono,not to worry,the owner of the cottage is a cornish rugby supporter and hes painted the roof,KERNOW!!!!!_____ regards,Neil.
    p.s.I think my "hello" from cornwall has just arrived,my accent is thick with rrrrrrrs all of a sudden!
    Arrrh - actually, with me it's the o's and u's. I've been spending the last few days taking pictures of Clowds and Cowwws

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    Re: Returned M8 Maze Pattern - faulty sensor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Jono, Do you see this with other lenses (I doubt it)?

    I also think it is aliasing because the Zeiss 25mm is too sharp for the M8 sensor.
    HI Vivek
    I've seen it so rarely that i'm not sure - but it makes sense. Actually, I really like this lens - I was considering getting the new Leica 24 f3.4 . . . but it seems rather an extravagance when I already have the crispy Zeiss.

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    Re: Returned M8 Maze Pattern - faulty sensor?

    Hi Jono, This is one of the lenses I covet (Shh.....).

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    Re: Returned M8 Maze Pattern - faulty sensor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Hi Jono, This is one of the lenses I covet (Shh.....).
    So it's not just me!
    I swapped with Vieri for the E60 21mm leica (I found it hard to frame, and I don't like using external viewfinders), and I also had the 50mm sonnar from him. They are both coded, and they've turned out to be big favorites. The sonnar is very reminiscent of the Nocti at f1.5, but by f2.8 it's a real Zeiss.

    The 25 is just sooooo sharp, right to the corners,a real contrast to the ZF lens I had with the Nikon gear (must sell that).

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    Re: Returned M8 Maze Pattern - faulty sensor?

    Jono:

    When a screen hits your eye
    With a strange DPI
    That's a Moiré.


    (Shamelessly stolen from Wikipedia, with profuse apologies to Harry Warren, Jack Brooks, and Dean Martin).

    --Peter

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    Re: Returned M8 Maze Pattern - faulty sensor?

    Jono,

    I don't believe there is anything wrong with your M8 sensor.

    I have seen this on rare occassion on mine--I have also seen this on rare occassion with my Canon 5D when I was shooting in Paris.

    What I attribute this to is the sensor trying to resolve detail/texture (usually) very far away (IE: cityscapes) that I suppose is just too fine for the sensor. Keep in mind that pattern won't really showup unless you print WAY bigger than 13inx19in....

    /a

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    Re: Returned M8 Maze Pattern - faulty sensor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Klein View Post
    When a screen hits your eye
    With a strange DPI
    That's a Moiré.
    Ughhhhhhhh... I wonder how many of us here actually got that...

    Man, I'm getting old... Was that originally Mr. Cool himself, Dean-o?

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    Re: Returned M8 Maze Pattern - faulty sensor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Klein View Post
    Jono:

    When a screen hits your eye
    With a strange DPI
    That's a Moiré.


    (Shamelessly stolen from Wikipedia, with profuse apologies to Harry Warren, Jack Brooks, and Dean Martin).

    --Peter
    Hey that was actually our wedding song if you can believe that. No joke
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Member Hank Graber's Avatar
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    Re: Returned M8 Maze Pattern - faulty sensor?

    Are you using Phase One? That pattern is easily provoked in Phase One with the M8. I had seen it with the Canon 1Ds as well but the M8 files are more sensitive to it. Try different settings or another raw converter to see if it changes or eliminates the pattern.

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    Senior Member Peter Klein's Avatar
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    Re: Returned M8 Maze Pattern - faulty sensor?

    Jack: Thought that would elicit a groan or two.

    "That's Amore" appeared in the Dean Martin/Jerry Lewis comedy The Caddy in 1953--the year I was born. The song was written a year earlier. Yes, Dino (aka "Mr. Cool") recorded it, and it became one of his signature tunes.

    But you don't have to 1950s-vintage or older to know the song, as it crops up in pop culture all the time. It was used prominently in "Moonstruck" (1987) starring Cher, Nicholas Cage and Olympia Dukakis.

    More than you ever wanted to know:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thats_Amore

    Guy: Why not? it's a perfectly good song. We traveled to Italy a few years ago, and I heard it played in a neighborhood restaurant in Rome. So I was singing along in English, and the locals were singing in Italian, and we had a great time. They were very impressed that I knew it.

    Perhaps that motivated this series (film, M4-P, several pictures on the page):
    http://users.2alpha.com/~pklein/italy/amore.htm

    --Peter

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    Re: Returned M8 Maze Pattern - faulty sensor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Klein View Post
    Jack: Thought that would elicit a groan or two.

    "That's Amore" appeared in the Dean Martin/Jerry Lewis comedy The Caddy in 1953--the year I was born. The song was written a year earlier. Yes, Dino (aka "Mr. Cool") recorded it, and it became one of his signature tunes.

    But you don't have to 1950s-vintage or older to know the song, as it crops up in pop culture all the time. It was used prominently in "Moonstruck" (1987) starring Cher, Nicholas Cage and Olympia Dukakis.

    More than you ever wanted to know:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thats_Amore

    Guy: Why not? it's a perfectly good song. We traveled to Italy a few years ago, and I heard it played in a neighborhood restaurant in Rome. So I was singing along in English, and the locals were singing in Italian, and we had a great time. They were very impressed that I knew it.

    Perhaps that motivated this series (film, M4-P, several pictures on the page):
    http://users.2alpha.com/~pklein/italy/amore.htm

    --Peter
    Hi Peter
    You appear to be a year younger than me . . I certainly don't remember much of 1953 - but of course I know the song, and you got the groan you deserve.

    I'm happier now - the upgrade is lovely, they appear to have replaced the whole back part of the camera (I assume that was with the LCD update) - so, new buttons and dial, and new LCD. I'm not convinced the vulkanite is more grippy, but it certainly looks nicer!

    Hank - I'm not using Capture 1 - although, interestingly, I did send this to Leica, and they said 'Use Capture one - it gets rid of it'!

    As far as this photo is concerned - it's easily cured, and I wasn't going to do anything with it anyway - except redirect it to the recycle bin . . . another of those 'not quite' shots.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Returned M8 Maze Pattern - faulty sensor?

    Hello!
    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    It isn't the moire pattern - I can deal with that quite easily with the Aperture tool (and it's rare anyway). it's the maze pattern on the roof.
    This 'maze pattern' is a result of Adaptive Homogeneity-Directed interpolation (AHD) used in Capture One.
    While it is the best choice for Bayer demosaicing for sensors without an AA-filter, sometimes a pattern like yours may occur.
    There are many reviews of this behaviour on the web (google for AHD) in comparison to other algorithms, but overall, it is the best method one could choose...

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