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Thread: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    DN, You would get more hits (and not much interactive discussions) posting to the rumor site than here.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    As I explained earlier, I'm not interested in hits (nor is this rumor). I'm updating as I find out more and not everything was immediately known or clear. Thus the updates.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    A plastic M-camera may not sound appealing, but if part of a ruggedized, weather-resistant M-system, it might start to look downright sexy!

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Not meaning to provoke an argument...but this really is a rumor...until it's announced, at which point, it no longer will be.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    If you want to split hairs, yeah - I suppose you're right.

    Sheesh. I don't think I want to share with you guys anymore.
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    The proverbial "take your ball and go home"?

    Sorry ... Long day ... I enjoy your site, especially some of the reviews (e.g., Elmarit-M 90). Please keep it up.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    I also enjoy DN's site, but agree that the sprinkling of clues and hints is not the best way to build a dedicated following. I appreciate that DN has stated that his site "does not make one nickel" or words to that effect, but it does have sponsors and so cannot strictly be seen as a not for profit venture. Steve Huff's site is also a place to "hang out" but now generates an ever increasing revenue stream.

    DN, I appreciate your passion for LVL, but feel that it's not the best form to advertise on GetDPI and other forums where Leica folk gather. If your content is strong people will find you without the need to self promote.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    How much further can you strip down a Leica M? It is not like it is a very complicated camera. It does not have live view. No real physical technology that can be taken out--the coupled rangefinder is the most complicated and if it is a rangefinder it hardly seems likely they will remove that. Perhaps they will return to the screw mount?
    The answer is this lower priced body that uses M lenses will now be the manual camera, the real replacement for the M9 feature wise. You completely right the M9 is still mostly twenty year old technology save for the chip, and let's not even discuss value or "features" set against even today's mirrorless bodies.

    The M10 will still be the top dog with all the bells and whistles - priced accordingly. From a Leica marketing perspective, they will sell a ton of both, likely all they can produce just like they are with the M9 product. The M10 to all the present M9 owners and most new luxury buyers. The new body will go to mostly wedding pro's not presently using an M, and folks that want to get their feet wet for the cost of a 5D3 + a bit for the red dot on the front.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    I think it all depends how a lower priced Leica M digital is implemented will determine how interesting it is. If its simply a stripped down M, thats going to temper some enthusiam. If it's something akin to a Leica CL in digital form, smaller/lighter than a M9, maybe with some form of cropped CMOS sensor to keep costs down (and priced significantly below an M9) yet due to having CMOS sensor it incorporates good higher ISO performance...then this is something that even current M9 users could envision as a second alternative body as well as attracting those that want an interchangeable M body digital camera but find the cost of an M9 too high financialy. ...
    I'd love it if they made a "digital CL". Or an X2 based body that can take M-mount lenses. Both the CL (I've been fondling the one I just received ... ;-) and the X2 are wonderful cameras ... shape, weight, size, features are all excellent. I've been waiting for this camera to appear for a while.

    (The Ricoh GXR with M-mount camera unit is right there too: a dedicated TTL electronic M-mount camera that does a superb job with a huge range of the available M-mount and LTM lenses. The A12 Camera Mount (APS-C format 12Mpixel sensor with no AA filter and corrective optics tuned for RF lenses, focal plane shutter, a host of features) is a $750 purchase. Build that technology into either a CL (with coupled optical rangefinder) or X2 (with LCD and optional high-rez EVF) format body and you have a winner. Make it 'the Leica way' and one will be in my closet quickly.

    I'm happy with the M9 as it is. A less expensive M9 ... hmm ... hard to imagine what they'd remove as the M8/M9 are pretty minimalistic as it is. I wouldn't want them to leave out the quality.

    But again, I await the real announcements.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I'd love it if they made a "digital CL". Or an X2 based body that can take M-mount lenses. Both the CL (I've been fondling the one I just received ... ;-) and the X2 are wonderful cameras ... shape, weight, size, features are all excellent. I've been waiting for this camera to appear for a while.

    (The Ricoh GXR with M-mount camera unit is right there too: a dedicated TTL electronic M-mount camera that does a superb job with a huge range of the available M-mount and LTM lenses. The A12 Camera Mount (APS-C format 12Mpixel sensor with no AA filter and corrective optics tuned for RF lenses, focal plane shutter, a host of features) is a $750 purchase. Build that technology into either a CL (with coupled optical rangefinder) or X2 (with LCD and optional high-rez EVF) format body and you have a winner. Make it 'the Leica way' and one will be in my closet quickly.

    I'm happy with the M9 as it is. A less expensive M9 ... hmm ... hard to imagine what they'd remove as the M8/M9 are pretty minimalistic as it is. I wouldn't want them to leave out the quality.

    But again, I await the real announcements.
    Exactly! What we both expressed (and I'm sure many others have too) would make a lower prcied alternative interesting. Not just a striped down version of an already exising camera but a new entry level camera that takes interchangeable M lenses ala Leica CL, Ricoh GXR, X2, that has it's own little feature set but clearly being cost effective for both lecia and the consumer is bult into the equation. No one doubted at the time of the CL, that it was clearly a budget made and priced alternative to the Leica M bodies at the time but at the same time, wasn't just a stripped down M4 or whatever M body was the standard at the time.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Exactly! What we both expressed (and I'm sure many others have too) would make a lower prcied alternative interesting. Not just a striped down version of an already exising camera but a new entry level camera that takes interchangeable M lenses ala Leica CL, Ricoh GXR, X2, that has it's own little feature set but clearly being cost effective for both lecia and the consumer is bult into the equation. No one doubted at the time of the CL, that it was clearly a budget made and priced alternative to the Leica M bodies at the time but at the same time, wasn't just a stripped down M4 or whatever M body was the standard at the time.
    The sad part about the CL was that it was very very popular, but Leica lost money on every one they sold due to the amount of OEM rework they had to do and the warranty costs. They can't afford to make another CL on that front ...

    The CL came out in 1973, following the M5 (1971, which replaced the M4). The biggest thing the CL was lacking compared to the M4 and M5 was the rangefinder baseline. So, to Leica standards, the faster 90mm and the 135mm focal length lenses were no-go on it ... not enough rangefinder accuracy to meet Leica's criteria. The viewfinder was simpler too, with just 40, 50 and 90 framelines. The body was outsourced to Minolta for manufacture, and that's where all the issues came in—because Minolta didn't really grok Leica quality standards and customer demand for quality.

    But it is a charming camera nonetheless. I'm happy to have another one again. A digital CL would be superb.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    I'm really not interested in a baby M9 with optical rangefinder. Will I have to purchase even more $100 diopter correction lenses? No, leave the optical rangefinder and all of the calibration issues that go with it to the M9, MM and probably the M10.

    Now, if this new digital CL has an EVF that would really be something. A great companion to the M9, M10, MM or whatever Leica sends our way. Heck, I would be thrilled if it ONLY had an EVF and no damn screen.

    Now if I can just get Dr. K on the phone...hello? hallo???

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by StephenPatterson View Post
    I'm really not interested in a baby M9 with optical rangefinder. Will I have to purchase even more $100 diopter correction lenses? No, leave the optical rangefinder and all of the calibration issues that go with it to the M9, MM and probably the M10.

    Now, if this new digital CL has an EVF that would really be something. A great companion to the M9, M10, MM or whatever Leica sends our way. Heck, I would be thrilled if it ONLY had an EVF and no damn screen.

    Now if I can just get Dr. K on the phone...hello? hallo???
    Even if Leica made a lower cost alternative to the M9 in a lower cost form factor, many would have a different set of features they'd like to see. Some woud be similar to what Stephen has expressed, some would simply like it to be a lower cots alternative that had better ISO (maybe due to using less expensive CMOS) and others would have a combination of the two. It's hard to appeal to everyones concerpt in exactly what it should be.

    Me, I'm simple to please. Just reprice the upcoming MM at half it's current suggested retail price and leave the rest of the camer just the way it is!

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    ... Me, I'm simple to please. Just reprice the upcoming MM at half it's current suggested retail price and leave the rest of the camer just the way it is!
    I'd go for that too. :-)
    Unlikely, though.

    If they took the X2 body and fitted a sensor optimized for RF lenses, a focal plane shutter, and M lens mount to it, left the price right as it is, that would be just fine by me. It's pretty much what the GXR is, but the X2 controls and optional EVF are better. Heck, they could do worse than just buying the sensor/shutter assembly in the GXR... And the camera doesn't have to have the range of additional features that the GXR has to have to support multiple camera units, so it remains simple and true to the Leica aesthetic.

    I look forward to whatever it is that Leica announces. :-)

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    I have a funny feeling the next full frame EVIL body that will accept my Leica M lenses will be Fuji instead of Leica.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by StephenPatterson View Post
    I have a funny feeling the next full frame EVIL body that will accept my Leica M lenses will be Fuji instead of Leica.
    I'm almost certain it won't be

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Perhaps the ME stands for M Electronic and Jono is testing one.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by TimWright View Post
    Perhaps the ME stands for M Electronic and Jono is testing one.
    Don't tease me...but that would be wonderful.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by TimWright View Post
    Perhaps the ME stands for M Electronic and Jono is testing one.
    Sorry Tim:
    1. I hadn't heard of an ME before this thread
    2. I'm not testing one!

    So I know no more than anyone else here (except DN of course).

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by StephenPatterson View Post
    I have a funny feeling the next full frame EVIL body that will accept my Leica M lenses will be Fuji instead of Leica.
    I hope it's a NEX with a great EVF and focus peaking.
    Fuji would be full of bugs as always
    Leica would be the most logical one, but they never proved there is any
    logic in what they do, so maybe it's true and they are not gonna show
    an electronic FF M mount camera. Would be really shocking to be honest...
    I really don't want a rangefinder.
    All I want is a great FF modern camera for my M glass.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    The cheaper Leica? Well, 4,000 euros is about 2,000 euros off the M9 price. Just imagine how much Leica glass you could buy with 2,000 euros! Folks have poked fun at me because of how much I spent on my Pentax 645D. An M system is actually more expensive.
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by snowboarder View Post
    ...so maybe it's true and they (Leica) are not gonna show an electronic FF M mount camera...
    I really don't understand why Leica would make this new ME a rangefinder and not an EVF. What's the point if it's just a smaller M9 with a plastic body? That's like going out and getting a mistress who looks just like your wife.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    unless the mistress has some plastic parts

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    I'm hoping that they ditch the CCD for a mainstream CMOS in this model, if it indeed happens. That will probably reduce the cost quite a bit...

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Having a CMOS sensor with higher usable ISO could be a benefit, depending upon IQ. If it's just a less expensive rangefinder with a CCD I don't see why anyone with an M9 would buy one, and remember the existing customer base is always important for any new product. But if Leica's plan is that all present M9 owners will jump to have an M10 with video and a clip on EVF while a new baby M9 attracts the masses, well, good luck and godspeed...

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by StephenPatterson View Post
    ...while a new baby M9 attracts the masses, well, good luck and godspeed...
    Yeah, if they think they will attract
    a new crowd expecting a modern camera,
    by giving them such an old school "baby" M9
    which would be even harder to use, they
    are even less logical than I would ever think...
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by StephenPatterson View Post
    I really don't understand why Leica would make this new ME a rangefinder and not an EVF.
    Because Leica believes their customer base is attracted to the rangefinder form. I doubt Leica is trying to compete with the EVIL Japanese market, but are simply trying to enlarge their own customer base.

    And personally, I have no interest in EVF cameras. I really don't like that type of viewfinder.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    I hate to say, but actually a good working EVF can be pretty helpful. Not wanting to look through it? Rather prefer OVF?

    Keep in mind that each OVF has a lot of limitations. SO I think they need to come up with an EVF concept for the M-Digital finally in order to stay competitive and successful.
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by StephenPatterson View Post
    Having a CMOS sensor with higher usable ISO could be a benefit, depending upon IQ. If it's just a less expensive rangefinder with a CCD I don't see why anyone with an M9 would buy one, and remember the existing customer base is always important for any new product. But if Leica's plan is that all present M9 owners will jump to have an M10 with video and a clip on EVF while a new baby M9 attracts the masses, well, good luck and godspeed...
    It would make a nice second body. But most likely it is not aimed at people that already have an M9, but folks that could not afford, but want, a rangefinder. Leica is not nor does it position itself to be a mass manufacturer of cameras. Actually, an existing customer or owner base is not that important--if you already have a camera you like that gives great results, why buy a new one? Generally speaking, a new model is a replacement for an old one. Future customers will not buy the old model and companies have to keep their line relevant.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I hate to say, but actually a good working EVF can be pretty helpful. Not wanting to look through it? Rather prefer OVF?

    Keep in mind that each OVF has a lot of limitations. SO I think they need to come up with an EVF concept for the M-Digital finally in order to stay competitive and successful.
    I agree. With the X2, I bought both EVF and optical finders. I like using the optical finder most of the time* because it's easy on the eyes and delightfully casual in use. But if I really want framing precision AND access to the focusing information AND the live histogram, etc etc, the EVF is FAR superior.

    * ... Although even there the vexing issue of what is framed with it varies a lot due to my eye glasses ... I've now determined that what I need is a Voigtländer 28mm Brightline finder, which will frame much more accurately what the sensor sees given my eyes and my glasses—just like the Voigtländer 35mm Brightline finder does a better job of framing for me than the technically accurate 40mm finder would for a 28mm lens on the GXR-M.

    An X2-alike with M-lens interchangeable mount would be superb. And a CL-alike with a built-in optical finder AND live view LCD would also be superb. I'm easy.

    ;-)

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Personally, I'll be quite curious. If Leica decides to divide sales between a high end M10 and a lower end ME", both with RF options and the ME more comparable to M9 in terms of IQ but at a palatale price point, I do see it being successful....I believe that enough people will desire and M10 to not have an ME cannibalize sales...as the CL did to the M5, if I am not mistaken....I guess we'll see...hopefully the M10 won't be an M5.2, so people will actually want it... for me, I suspect that the M9 will be plenty enough camera for me, and the MM will be a happy edition when it comes my way...
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I hate to say, but actually a good working EVF can be pretty helpful. Not wanting to look through it? Rather prefer OVF?

    Keep in mind that each OVF has a lot of limitations. SO I think they need to come up with an EVF concept for the M-Digital finally in order to stay competitive and successful.
    But an EVF has limitations as well. Bad color and grainy and really does not present the world very well. And when compared to a rangefinder, blackout during exposure. And one of its advantages is also it disadvantage--it can destroy your low-light visual adaptation. EVFs are nice, but not for everybody.

    Who is Leica's competition? The micro four thirds consortium? Certainly their pricing has not put off their customer base. The lack of AF has not hurt them. What other rangefinder manufacturer is doing business? I can't see the lack of an EVF is going to hurt the bottom line nor prevent this from being successful.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by ashwinrao1 View Post
    ...as the CL did to the M5,
    Well, that could be because the M5 did not look like a "real" Leica. The Leica base is very conservative about design and Leica knows that.
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by ashwinrao1 View Post
    to cannibalize sales...as the CL did to the M5 ...
    The CL could only be seen to cannibalize M5 sales from a rather skew perspective. The M5 was released in 1971 and the M4 discontinued. It failed to motivate sales immediately, mostly on the basis of it being larger, heavier, and clunky-looking compared to the traditional design of the M4.

    The CL was introduced in 1973—two years later—and was very popular as it was much less expensive. But it sold to a largely new audience ... the owners of M3-M4 cameras simply held onto their older cameras and didn't update to the M5, although some added a CL to their kit as well.

    It was a different time and a different dynamic in the marketplace when it comes to camera upgrades. People didn't just automatically "have to have" the latest update of a camera model.
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    But an EVF has limitations as well. Bad color and grainy and really does not present the world very well. And when compared to a rangefinder, blackout during exposure. And one of its advantages is also it disadvantage--it can destroy your low-light visual adaptation. EVFs are nice, but not for everybody.
    Erm. Which EVF are you looking in? Sure, tha blackout in a rangefinder is zero. But the shutter lag isn't (of course that's a function of a CCD). I read your comments and went and spent half an hour trying to re-evaluate. As far as I can see the blackout is minuscule compared to a dSLR, the colour is what you're going to get, and its not grainy in our late night kitchen, where the chosen ISO is 6400. Added to which the single shot AF is lightning and thebshutter lag almost non-existent. Maybe you should look again?

    Of course, you're entitled to dislike EVFs, but if you're going to give reasons......

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Come on Jono, throw us a bone... how is it (are they) working for you?
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Generically speaking I had this EVF on the Sony 77 that the black out just killed it for me. All OEMs need to solve this, it's a killer when your shooting multiple frames doing fast work. I had a real hard time with it shooting runway. Basically it got in my way and that's a bad thing. I'm keeping a close eye on Leica this year. If anyone I think they maybe in the position to release something special. Also watching Hassy too as there pockets are far deeper than all of us realize. Bottom line is who has the most money to throw at R&D and willing to take risks will rise to the top. My advice keep a open mind.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I'm keeping a close eye on Leica this year. If anyone I think they maybe in the position to release something special.
    Does your bank manager know about this? More to the point, does the wife?
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Neither but I did fill my knitting basket just in case. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Erm. Which EVF are you looking in? Sure, tha blackout in a rangefinder is zero. But the shutter lag isn't (of course that's a function of a CCD). I read your comments and went and spent half an hour trying to re-evaluate. As far as I can see the blackout is minuscule compared to a dSLR, the colour is what you're going to get, and its not grainy in our late night kitchen, where the chosen ISO is 6400. Added to which the single shot AF is lightning and thebshutter lag almost non-existent. Maybe you should look again?

    Of course, you're entitled to dislike EVFs, but if you're going to give reasons......
    I have used the Sony 77 and Fuji X100 EVFs. I was told the EVFs in those cameras are excellent. I have yet to see the color in the EVF appear in the file. I did not find the view very clear.

    I don't dislike EVFs--I prefer optical finders. I simply tried to qualify the statement by giving my reasons (I was commenting on someone stating the OVF have limitations and was just pointing out the EVFs are not perfect either). You might be surprised that I am not the only one at GetDPI that prefers an optical finder. I am sure folks like EVFs for very good reasons.

    Now, you may prefer Leica to drop the optical finder in their M line, and that is fine. I would really like cameras with optical finders still produced. I have a great affinity with the rangefinder particularly, and the optical finder is central to that. I think it will be a sad day if the S4 and M11 are EVF only cameras IMVHO.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    If you have used the Sony A77 and the X100 and make these comments on EVF, there is little you can do but visit an optician for a check up. I am sincere about that.
    Last edited by Vivek; 29th August 2012 at 08:35. Reason: typo
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    I tried the EVF in the X100, was utterly awful, heaven help you if you move the camera with it to your eye, everything becomes a streaked blur. That and it was a very 'weak' image. Would love to try the one in the Nex 7.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    I actually like the EVF in my Nex-7. I like the one in the XPro-1 even better, as you can turn it off and use the OVF when you want. Both have great resolution, though the color is not what your going to get on capture with either.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I have used the Sony 77 and Fuji X100 EVFs. ...
    Neither of those EVFs are up to the quality of the EVF provided with the Olympus VF-2, the E-M5 or X2 EVFs. The latter best them by a good margin, IMO.

    Inter-frame blackout with the EVF on the X2 is pretty quick. NONE of the current TTL electronic viewfinder cameras are at their best when doing sequence capture of moving subjects, so I would never rely upon them for that.

    As in all things, an EVF has its strengths and weaknesses, as do tunnel optical viewfinders, LCD viewfinders, and reflex optical viewfinders. Each has its specific assortment of failure modes, none do everything well. That's why I have cameras which include all four types of viewfinder options, and pick the best one for what I'm trying to do.

    I *like* bare bones optical viewfinders the most, but their limitations are quickly apparent to an objective analysis.
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    HI There
    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I have used the Sony 77 and Fuji X100 EVFs. I was told the EVFs in those cameras are excellent. I have yet to see the color in the EVF appear in the file. I did not find the view very clear.
    Well, I thought the Fuji horrible, and the A77 does (did?) have some lag - I've been using an OMD for 5 months (and that's what I was thinking about) and one forgets the shortcomings of others!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I don't dislike EVFs--I prefer optical finders. I simply tried to qualify the statement by giving my reasons (I was commenting on someone stating the OVF have limitations and was just pointing out the EVFs are not perfect either). You might be surprised that I am not the only one at GetDPI that prefers an optical finder. I am sure folks like EVFs for very good reasons.
    Well, I prefer the look of an optical finder as well - and it's worth pointing out I was largely thinking of dSLR optical finders as a comparison. Certainly EVFs aren't perfect, and there's a way to go, but we all spent years refining our rangefinder skills, and you needs skill with an optical finder too (and practice). I find it very odd going back to a proper real camera (a dSLR) and finding that:
    1. I can't see the white balance
    2. there is terrible shutter lag
    3. I can't see the exposure
    4. taking a picture sounds like someone stamping on a tin can.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Now, you may prefer Leica to drop the optical finder in their M line, and that is fine.
    Wow . . I hope I didn't imply that - I would be horrified if they dropped the optical finder - I'd be horrified if they dropped the mechanical rangefinder as well - for me it's the most important single feature which makes me keep on using M cameras that would be dreadful (fortunately I don't think they will).
    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I would really like cameras with optical finders still produced. I have a great affinity with the rangefinder particularly, and the optical finder is central to that. I think it will be a sad day if the S4 and M11 are EVF only cameras IMVHO.
    Absolutely agree with that statement . . . It's just that I'm finding it hard to think of going back to a dSLR with an optical viewfinder, and I can see the benefits of an EVF under lots of circumstances (like, maybe, if you want to put a 200mm lens on your M12).

    all the best

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    ... I can see the benefits of an EVF under lots of circumstances (like, maybe, if you want to put a 200mm lens on your M12).
    I don't think we'll have to wait for the M12. Leica's blog for Aug 28 is all about R equipment, something they haven't mentioned AT ALL since the R system was discontinued.
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    All of this speculation makes me happier with my current M9 and that makes my day. Remember when I had my M8 and dreaded the Photokina announcement of the M9. Maybe the CCD sensor in my M9 will be a collectors item?
    David
    Auckland, NZ.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Your M9 is no dinosaur either. All this speculation is great but almost every time regardless of who announces what they always still come up a dollar short on something. Let's see what happens.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    It's just that I'm finding it hard to think of going back to a dSLR with an optical viewfinder...
    Well, the next time you come to Maine or I visit East Anglia--I grew up in Cambridge--I will let you try my Pentax 645D. It might be very illuminating.

    A bad viewfinder is a bad viewfinder and that has nothing to do with it being an EVF or OVF. I don't know how folks use an APS DSLR, which explains the enthusiasm for live view. I love the viewfinder on my Mamiya 6 and, while I had it, a Horseman SW612.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Well, the next time you come to Maine or I visit East Anglia--I grew up in Cambridge--I will let you try my Pentax 645D. It might be very illuminating.

    A bad viewfinder is a bad viewfinder and that has nothing to do with it being an EVF or OVF. I don't know how folks use an APS DSLR, which explains the enthusiasm for live view. I love the viewfinder on my Mamiya 6 and, while I had it, a Horseman SW612.
    But I'm just a snapper, and MF cameras freeze my brains. I simply don't have the intellectual staying power. My Sony A900 had a decent optical viewfinder (generally considered) - but I'd rather use an OMD given an equivalent lens.

    Love to meet up for a pint and talk about rangefinders though

    Just this guy you know
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