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Thread: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

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    Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Seems there are a few surprises for Photokina 2012 after all... We kind of all expected the M10 and 28mm Lux. But you're not expecting this!

    Admin Note: We've received multiple complaints about your linking to another site without giving details here. It is a rule, and everybody needs to follow it or we'll end up with forums full of threads that just link. Granted, the OP has asked for discussion here, and that's why I let it slide initially, but given the complaints I have no option except to extract the information from the link below and repost it here or delete the entire thread. Double, if you are not in agreement with this, then PM me and I will delete the entire thread.

    Here is the content from the link posted below:


    "Can't stand the anticipation of what Leica has in store for us at Photokina 2012 - or their own special event "Das Wesentliche" in Cologne the night before? We have it on good authority through a few well-placed source on what to expect. This is a La Vida Leica exclusive! The new products for the M system will include...

    Let's start with a new M10 body and a Summilux-M 28mm f/1.4 ASPH lens. Everyone naturally seems to be expecting the M10 and the Summilux was recently revealed through a firmware update which included the coding for it. The M10 will have a CMOS sensor - and therefore live view with an EVF port. And... Video! While it might be announced at Photokina, it won't be available until April. Another common rumor was a redesigned Summicron-M 28mm f/2 ASPH. Turns out, this will remain a rumor - at least for now. Don't expect to see it at Photokina.

    Pretty cool, right? Still want more? There will also be another body announced! The Leica ME!

    It was hinted at by DSLR Magazine with more clues offered in interviews of Andreas Kaufmann by BJP and Stefan Daniels by Theme - but we can confirm it. This is NOT a rumor - and it's not what some of you are thinking.

    The "ME" name however is subject to change. It is a real Leica, not a clone or a re-badge. It will cost less than the M9 and feature a regular VF (no EVF and not EVIL). In fact, it's more like the M9 than it is different - it's a scaled back M9 (M10?). M mount. So there it is - sorry EVIL fans. We're trying to confirm, but it should have a full frame sensor. Available shortly after Photokina.

    Two cameras, two price levels. Same system... M!

    Stay tuned for more details..."


    New Leica Products at Photokina 2012

    Discuss.
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    A copy of the Pentax ME Super? Leica is probably just got tired of making the couple rangefinder mechanism and the M line will turn into an EVIL line. A Fuji X-Pro1 killer!

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    A rebadged Panasonic Lumix G5 with a Leica price tag. You heard it first here!

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    And it might very likely not even be called M10 !?!

    You also heard this FIRST here

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    MX

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Or maybe iM1 (and you can be 1, 2).

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Cute, very cute but DN's post is about a "new" camera.

    It is a rebadged Lumix.

    Take a look at the G5's shape. A miniature R9.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    ME = M Electronic ...
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Well, the price of the new camera will be 4,000 euros as the man himself stated they did not have a product filling the gap between 2,000 and 6,000 euro.

    But even bigger news, Leica will publish a book of Seal's photography in their new publishing venture.
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    More clues to follow...
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    ME = M Economic
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    When they release a new digital camera that begins with "R", Leica will have my full attention.

    Gary
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Define "exclusive."

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    The advertising possibilities are great:

    Do you Leica ME?
    We Leica everybody!

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    A rebadged Panasonic Lumix G5 with a Leica price tag. You heard it first here!
    I doubt it. I think it's more likely to be a rebadged NEX camera given the Sony produced CMOS rumors. They also make the X1 and X2 sensor so I'd bet more money on that. I would hope for an APS-H sensor though given the higher retail price it'll have.
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    No, it's a real Leica. No clone...

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Leica said about 18 months ago try were working on a TTL electronic camera with this Photokina as a target.

    So what's the surprise?

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Godfrey, They have also said (don't know when) that they are working on a "solution" for the R line. Time has passed and the orphaned lenses are finding solutions by owners to use on Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc system cameras.

    Thia appears to be really news if something comes out of it.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    For one, no TTL on this one.

    But there will be on the other one.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Maybe its the m10 and m11!

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post
    For one, no TTL on this one.

    But there will be on the other one.
    LOL!

    As usual, I'm content to wait and see what they announce. Listening to rumors is just for the entertainment value.

    BTW, I found a nice little book recently:


    Covers the highlights of most cameras and lenses Leica introduced from the beginning up to 1980. :-)

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post
    For one, no TTL on this one.

    But there will be on the other one.
    What do you mean by TTL? Definition please . .
    .. . . . I know it means 'through the lens', but through the lens what? metering? live view? optical viewfinder?

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Not sure how you can get live view without TTL? OVF TTL means some sort of mirror flapping like SLR? So that leaves metering... but what kind of modern day digital M without TTL metering?

    I don't think it does anyone any good hinting at stuff like this. If you had the goods from a source, just spill it and be willing to protect your source all the way to the court room. Throwing clues here and there behind a wink and smile only cause more confusion and frustration, when I don't feel it's even necessary. Now PM me the whole story and I'll stop complaining! ;-)
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    "Throwing clues here and there behind a wink and smile only cause more confusion and frustration, when I don't feel it's even necessary."

    It's necessary if your goal is to elicit pages hits for your website.
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Isn't it in the forum rules that members can't link directly to their own blog sites?

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Isn't it in the forum rules that members can't link directly to their own blog sites?
    It is not a blog, it is a rumor site (says so here: Are we going to see a new “Leica ME” too? | Mirrorless Rumors)

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    It's not a "blog site." It's not a "rumor site." It's a place for Leica folks to hang out. Honestly, I don't care if you don't go there. It doesn't make me one red nickel. In fact, I pay out of my pocket to host it. So go - or don't go. Anyway - back to why we're here.

    The ME will have a regular RF VF - no EVF, no EVIL.

    There. And I didn't even make you go to "that blog site" to read that. You're welcome.

    P.S. I can update everywhere I post - or I can update everything in ONE place and provide a link instead. Guess what I'm going with?

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post
    The ME will have a regular RF VF - no EVF, no EVIL.

    There. And I didn't even make you go to "that blog site" to read that. You're welcome.
    Thanks! Now back on topic, but I'm more confused, how will ME be different from M9? FF CMOS sensor? APS-C? Will it really be like a digital CL? Hopefully it will still have TTL metering and an A mode. I guess the price point will be around 4000 USD... I think an used M9 is more attractive.
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    The ME will be closer to the M9 than different. What's a little hazy is the exact specs of the sensor; probably full frame and not APS-C. M mount.

    The M10 will have the CMOS, live view, EVF port and video.
    Last edited by Double Negative; 25th August 2012 at 19:44. Reason: Clarification

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post
    The ME will be closer to the M9 than different.
    Will there be a Monochrom version? ME-M?

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Heh. No.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    I'm really confused as to why Leica would make such a camera? Just a smaller M9 with CMOS sensor? I would be much more interested if it only had an EVF with CMOS sensor and live view. That would be a very good companion to my M9-P.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    There will be two cameras. The M10 with all the bells and whistles, and the ME at the lower end.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    So, this solves the problem of needing to lower the price of the M9 and M9-M even though the M9-M was announced in May and just starting shipping.

    So, the lineup would be ME, M9-M, and M10.

    I think this makes sense, now, will the price make sense? Will it have sapphire and no red dot for $1k more?
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    I do not think it makes sense to make a lower end version with a mechanical rangefinder, that's just an M9 with different sensor. What I would like to see is a Leica M mount camera that has a built in EVF like the Fuji XPro1. That would be a very useful tool for shooting in very low light or with long lenses. Heck, with an adapter such a camera could even turn M mount lenses into macro lenses.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    All this is just Leica marketing through "trusted friends" to create buzz and pent-up demand in advance of Photokina. And yes, it's fun.
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    It's weird that people who have been complaining and clamoring for a lower priced Leica M9 now seem to be saying that a rumored model with a less expensive sensor, facilitating a lower price, is irrelevant and uninteresting.

    Huh?
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    It's weird that people who have been complaining and clamoring for a lower priced Leica M9 now seem to be saying that a rumored model with a less expensive sensor, facilitating a lower price, is irrelevant and uninteresting.

    Huh?
    I think it all depends how a lower priced Leica M digital is implemented will determine how interesting it is. If its simply a stripped down M, thats going to temper some enthusiam. If it's something akin to a Leica CL in digital form, smaller/lighter than a M9, maybe with some form of cropped CMOS sensor to keep costs down (and priced significantly below an M9) yet due to having CMOS sensor it incorporates good higher ISO performance...then this is something that even current M9 users could envision as a second alternative body as well as attracting those that want an interchangeable M body digital camera but find the cost of an M9 too high financialy.

    Yes used M8's are available at a fraction of their original price, but this smaller more compact and lower cost body will have better high ISO performance, lighter weight and priced somewhere between an M9 and X2. No UVIR filters needed either! It might even have a 1.5x crop factor, which will alloow Leica considerable latitude in keeping the price down. Sort of what the original Leica film CL body was supposed to do, marketing wise.

    I wonder is they incorporated a shutter that would intergrate with a film like advance lever on the body to recock the shutter (similar to a RD-1) instead of a built the motor ala M9, which would then allow complete silent operation, this camera would have all sorts of innovations for a Leica digital, but with much of the technology that has long existed even in budget midned camera..hence ability to keep the price down. I believe two markets would exist for this camera and relative volume sales will make it profitable.

    Lastly I'm sure it would be debatable whether such a camera should have live view and/or EVF etc....but that might change the equation to being able to keep it at an entry level price point, as well as the target audience...traditionalists vs. those that want these modern technologies in such a camera.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    How much further can you strip down a Leica M? It is not like it is a very complicated camera. It does not have live view. No real physical technology that can be taken out--the coupled rangefinder is the most complicated and if it is a rangefinder it hardly seems likely they will remove that. Perhaps they will return to the screw mount?

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Maybe they'll go with an LCD from a point and shoot. Oh, wait...

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Any low price model is welcome given that a normal lens (real Leica not some 3rd party stuff) costs a pretty penny.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    How much further can you strip down a Leica M? It is not like it is a very complicated camera. It does not have live view. No real physical technology that can be taken out--the coupled rangefinder is the most complicated and if it is a rangefinder it hardly seems likely they will remove that. Perhaps they will return to the screw mount?
    I honestly can't say for sure but look at say two models of lower or midrange model DSLR's from Nikon. Similar or same sensor and shutters near identical...just less bells and whistles and an oversimplified layout with a somewhat less robust construction. Yet that alone results in a market spread where one of those models (relatively speaking) is much less expensive from the other). Sure the sum cost difference in parts may only amount to a small amount, but this has always been the way manufactures spread out their various models. More features/capabilities, the higher the costs

    A simpler shutter, a film advance lever to recock shutter instead of motor, cropped sensor, smaller body built with less robust parts, simple seperate door(s) for battery and SD card insertion, no removeable costly bottom plate, maybe plastic/polycarbonate fame and external bo
    dy parts instead of metal and of course a simplier feature set. Even reduce the type of packaging they use for the M9. Oh, and of course that cropped sensor is CMOS so the high ISO eprformance and compact lighter weight body will attract current M9 users as well as those who'd like to enter the system with a new camera (and a lower price). Just some thoughts.

    Shashin, fire up that modified lawn mower engine, get that rubber "assembly line" belt rotating (the ones from the 1930's) and lets get this ball rolling

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 26th August 2012 at 20:04.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post
    Everyone's been crying for a cheaper digital RF. Well, here it is.
    Where?

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Can't you see it, Vivek?

    I'd much prefer magnesium (over brass), or plastic-covered magnesium, over a standard M9. Every time I pick up one of my M film bodies I'm amazed how heavy they are...

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    If it's a reasonable facsimile of a CL, but in digital form, and priced appropriately, it'll be a hit. TO be honest, I'd be thrilled to have it include a similar sensor to the M9, to differentiate it from the rest of the crowd. I suspect that this means that the M10 may cost even more....9K...and a stripped down M for the masses for probably around $4k. Problem for Leica is there is now a robust market for used M digitals, including many M9's and M8's still in service (but out of warranty)....

    Like others such as Stephen above, it'd be interesting to see an EVIL camera and R lens capacity, but I think there are so many other options out there for this type of adaptability that Leica's targeting what it is good at and unique at: RF's...I'll be curious once announcements are made as to what this will be...I suspect that no EVIL makes this a CCD sensor, without AA....fingers crossed that it's worth it....and cheaper than 4K (I think 3K would sell a LOT of these, and 4K would sell not nearly as many)
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    I honestly can't say for sure but look at say two models of lower or midrange model DSLR's from Nikon. Similar or same sensor and shutters near identical...just less bells and whistles and an oversimplified layout with a somewhat less robust construction. Yet that alone results in a market spred where one of those models (relatively speaking) is much less expensive from the other). Sure the sum cost difference in parts may only amount to a small amount, but this has always been the way manufactures spread out their various models. More features/capabilities, the higher the cots

    A simpler shutter, a film advance lever to recock shutter instead of motor, cropped sensor, smaller body built with less robust parts, simple seperate door(s) for battery and SD card insertion, no removeable costly bottom plate, maybe plastic/polycarbonate fame and external budy parts instead of metal and of course a simplier feature set. Even reduce the type of packaging they use for the M9. Oh, and of course that cropped sensor is CMOS so the high ISO eprformance and compact lighter weight body will attract current M9 users as well as those who'd like to enter the system with a new camera (and a lower price). Just some thoughts.

    Shashin, fire up that modified lawn mower engine, get that rubber "assembly line" belt rotating (the ones from the 1930's) and lets get this ball rolling

    Dave (D&A)
    Perhaps an M9 Lite. The same CCD with a less expensive body--more plastic and cheaper finish. The M10 may boast a new CMOS with all that come with it.

    Naturally, if you ask me next month around the same time, I can probably give a better guess. But bringing down the cost of rangefinder technology and with a 35mm sensor is a really good move--with or without that screw mount.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Ashwin,

    My guess is the way Leica can introduce a lower cost alternative to the M9 yet combat the many M8's and M8.2's on the used market, is to introduce a camera that has a few tricks up it's sleve. One possible way to do this is to use a croped CMOS sensor. This will bring cost down considerably yet provide much better high ISO performance over those M8's and M8.2's..all in a compact form,. In fact it may even have some M9 uses thinking about a second body which has some advantages.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 27th August 2012 at 05:19.
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  48. #48
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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    I highly doubt an 'M' would be lower than 6k. Considering the overall price rising of high end cameras, it would bring the Leica M below what other manufacturers are doing, and thus bringing down Leica's market position closer to mass market...and yes the 1DX and D4 are now purchased more so by amateurs than pros.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    Considering Leica are no longer able to replace damaged M8 / M8.2 screens I very much doubt they care about the used digital M market.

    EDIT: In addition to the above, as not to sound negative, I actually welcome with open arms any lower cost Leica product. I've very much missed my M system cameras since financial stress forced me to sell my Leica gear. If this new camera is essentially a lower cost M9, hopefully full frame, it would have my full attention.

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    Re: Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

    That's fine. But all further updates will be at the original link. I don't have the time to keep everyone, everywhere updated and answer questions.

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