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Thread: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    New CMOS,no AA filter , sharp glass = nasty moire.

    I agree we are not sure of this chip. Not sure how it will handle all the aspects of image quality. It's new and unproven not like Nikon buying a chip from Sony that has a good track record. I know this maybe exciting to many M shooters but are we not forgetting the M8 release . This is all new and it's possible something can be off . Granted time marched on from the M8 but I don't discount anything. I'm actually interested in this but I won't be waiting outside a Leica store inline to get one on release day like I will for a iPhone.
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    New CMOS,no AA filter , sharp glass = nasty moire.
    Not necessarily. They can also do anti Moire via software. I am quite confident that there will be no repeat of the M8 debacle here.

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Yes software can handle moire. Just pointing out all is not rosy until its released and tested. No camera is
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by edwardkaraa View Post
    I can assure you my Ricoh GXR M mount has never seen a tripod in her life. I shoot all the time at working aperture, handheld, and about 60-40 ratio of focus peaking to magnified view.
    Mine's seen a little more tripod work than that, but not a lot.

    I have no problem shooting with it at all, for a very wide range of subject matter.

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Leica should really have applied a little more ingenuity in designing the new M. The tack on $200 external EVF is simply lazy design. I'm sure that many use an M purely for the RF experience. And the preference is to use the inbuilt finder. Sure, we sometime use external finders for wides. But that solution was devised in 1954. Fuji's hybrid implementation is brilliant and should have been Leica's model. Not the tack on solution employed by the bottom end of the market.

    To make matters worse, if you want to record video in stereo (which I expect applies to most) you need a another tack on gadget which is even uglier than the tack on EVF. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't use the two at the same time.

    I just don't understand all the hype with the new M. Where have Leica pushed the boundary?
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    Leica should really have applied a little more ingenuity in designing the new M. The tack on $200 external EVF is simply lazy design. I'm sure that many use an M purely for the RF experience. And the preference is to use the inbuilt finder. Sure, we sometime use external finders for wides. But that solution was devised in 1954. Fuji's hybrid implementation is brilliant and should have been Leica's model. ...
    External finders were devised long before 1954. My father's Leitz varifocal finder dated from at least the late 1940s if not the 1930s. :-)

    The Fuji hybrid viewfinder just doesn't impress me at all. It's a "okay" optical finder and a poor quality EVF IMO. That's one of the reasons I didn't buy an X100 or Xpro1. I'd much rather have a REAL rangefinder/viewfinder with superb optics and a simple frameline display, supplemented by an add-on, high quality EVF for the occasions when I want/need TTL viewing.

    We'll likely not agree no matter how much we argue about our personal preferences. If the new M is not to your taste, don't buy one ... that's pretty simple. It suits what I wanted nearly perfectly, drat, now I have to pony up the cash to buy one. ;-)
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Yeah I don't get why people are seemingly in a tizzy over the EVF now. It's really no different than those who used a frankenfinder or accessory viewfinder of your choice. The benefit is what who see is what you get. For everything in between 28-135mm the New M works as a traditional rangefinder like the M9. Until EVF technology gets up to a higher level I don't see a reason to compromise what is tried and true and add cost to an already expensive body for those who may not utilize the feature to begin with.
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Fair enough, but whether it's 1950 or 1930, the external finder is still a very old concept. And in referring to Fuji's approach, I meant that that they should adopt some form of hybrid design not Fuji's exact specs (EVF's need not be low res). The point is that Fuji's approach was creative, Leica took the easy path. Guy's suggestion, for example, of focus confirmation in the VF would also have been superb.

    Don't get me wrong. The M is a lovely camera. And it will be great for stills. But so is my M9P. Liveview via LCD/external EVF is old hat. I was looking forward to a step-change in technology. Not a recycling of old ideas. Leica so often push the boundaries when it comes to lens design. I guess I was just hoping for them to do the same with their next generation M digital.


    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    External finders were devised long before 1954. My father's Leitz varifocal finder dated from at least the late 1940s if not the 1930s. :-)

    The Fuji hybrid viewfinder just doesn't impress me at all. It's a "okay" optical finder and a poor quality EVF IMO. That's one of the reasons I didn't buy an X100 or Xpro1. I'd much rather have a REAL rangefinder/viewfinder with superb optics and a simple frameline display, supplemented by an add-on, high quality EVF for the occasions when I want/need TTL viewing.

    We'll likely not agree no matter how much we argue about our personal preferences. If the new M is not to your taste, don't buy one ... that's pretty simple. It suits what I wanted nearly perfectly, drat, now I have to pony up the cash to buy one. ;-)

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    Fair enough, but whether it's 1950 or 1930, the external finder is still a very old concept. And in referring to Fuji's approach, I meant that that they should adopt some form of hybrid design not Fuji's exact specs (EVF's need not be low res). The point is that Fuji's approach was creative, Leica took the easy path. Guy's suggestion, for example, of focus confirmation in the VF would also have been superb.

    Don't get me wrong. The M is a lovely camera. And it will be great for stills. But so is my M9P. Liveview via LCD/external EVF is old hat. I was looking forward to a step-change in technology. Not a recycling of old ideas. Leica so often push the boundaries when it comes to lens design. I guess I was just hoping for them to do the same with their next generation M digital.
    Probably news to every designer of ultraminiature LCD technology that the EVF is "old hat". Sheesh.

    Leica's body designs have always been delightfully conservative, well thought out, incremental improvements. Adding a radically new, totally different imaging system into the viewfinder would be very risky. Have you ever used other cameras with LCD overlays on optical finders? I have ... I'd MUCH rather have the gorgeous Leica rangefinder/viewfinder. Adding the option of a high quality EVF (and one that can be upgraded at that) independent of the body, for those who might want it, is a brilliant idea as it gives one options.

    Sorry. We won't agree. I have no need for an LCD display of my focus point when I have a rangefinder or a high quality TTL viewfinder. Unnecessary complication.

    As I said once before, perhaps in this thread, not every camera meets all needs and desires, nor satisfies every purpose. The new M does what I want (and need) nearly perfectly, based on the specs and the videos of it in action. Can't wait to use one! :-)

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    I could play one hour with it at Photokina, a perfect M for me , already ordered
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    I am as big of a Leica fan as anyone, yet I absolutely refuse to purchase a camera without seeing full resolution sample images shot with a range of lenses. To do otherwise is just throwing money to the wind and hoping for the best. In spite of all the bells and whistles if the image quality is not superior to the M9 I will absolutely not be "upgrading".

    In fact I am seriously considering skipping this camera and waiting for the next improved version in a few years, mainly because of the clip on EVF, clip on Stereo Mic, bolt on blender...this thing with all the accessories is bigger than a 5DMkIII! I have no issue with using clip on viewfinders on my M9 for wide angle lenses, because this is only necessary for perhaps 10% of all my shots. For the other 90% it's a 35mm or 50mm lens...no clip on anything, no handgrip, no stereo mic, no GPS, just images. It's criminal that Leica does not include the EVF, because the thought of composing live view images on a rear LCD is just ridiculous.

    Wouldn't it have been wonderful if Leica had enabled users to self calibrate their M optical rangefinders with the Live View display? That would have been very useful.

    I'm sorry, but this thing just feels like a digital M5 to me. Too much slightly outdated technology crammed together in an attempt to make it all "play nice".

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Gosh! You make it sound as if Leica is shoving their camera down your throat, forcing you to buy it.

    You don't like it, you don't want it? Don't buy it. It's that simple. In the end it's just another camera.
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    The fact remains that the 24 Mpx CMOS sensor is apparently made by a Belgian company founded in 2007 trading under the name of CMOSIS.

    Whilst I am sure that it is a solid design, frankly I have never heard of them before. The processor used in the new M is the same or similar to that used in the S2 which is of proven design now.

    I am invited to the London offices of Leica UK as a group when we expect to see and discuss new Leica products at the end of October, so hopefully I will know more then but meanwhile I shall wait quite a while before I sink megabucks into another Leica.
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Gosh! You make it sound as if Leica is shoving their camera down your throat, forcing you to buy it.

    You don't like it, you don't want it? Don't buy it. It's that simple. In the end it's just another camera.
    Godfrey, I'm simply saying that without demonstrating IQ there is nothing to consider. Until we have full resolution images to view and compare it's just a gadget with a red dot that hopes to become a camera. In the meantime I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid.

    For anyone who hasn't seen the sample images on Leica's website they are 800x542 pixel jpegs (96 pixels/inch) coming in under 150K size. Unbelievable for a new product announcement.

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    just wondering if the new LED framelines come up as pairs, or specific to the FL lens that is mounted.

    also read Reid Reviews on the M, informative as always, and he was involved to some extent in the design feature list

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    just wondering if the new LED framelines come up as pairs, or specific to the FL lens that is mounted.

    also read Reid Reviews on the M, informative as always, and he was involved to some extent in the design feature list

    The lines are as usual, in pairs. Only the light source is different, daylight vs LED.
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by edwardkaraa View Post
    The lines are as usual, in pairs. Only the light source is different, daylight vs LED.
    Edward - Maybe through wishful thinking, I had understood the framelines were in 'singles', not pairs. Are you suggesting that a 'ghost' [twinned] frameline is in view in the viewfinder whilst the correct frameline for the mounted lens is illuminated?

    ............... Chris

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris C View Post
    Edward - Maybe through wishful thinking, I had understood the framelines were in 'singles', not pairs. Are you suggesting that a 'ghost' [twinned] frameline is in view in the viewfinder whilst the correct frameline for the mounted lens is illuminated?

    ............... Chris
    Sorry, but it seems both lines are fully illuminated by the LED, exactly as in the older VF.

    From David Farkas report:

    I also took a peak through the optical viewfinder to find that 1) it was still there and 2) the LED-illuminated frame lines look identical to those in the M9 Titanium. The frame lines are still in three sets: 28/90, 35/135 and 50/75. My guess is that the mechanical cam is still employed to move the traditional frame mask, but the illumination is now all internal. The frame lines change illumination based on ambient light and can be user set to either red or white. The red looks more high-tech, but the white is classic.
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by StephenPatterson View Post
    Godfrey, I'm simply saying that without demonstrating IQ there is nothing to consider. Until we have full resolution images to view and compare it's just a gadget with a red dot that hopes to become a camera. In the meantime I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid.

    For anyone who hasn't seen the sample images on Leica's website they are 800x542 pixel jpegs (96 pixels/inch) coming in under 150K size. Unbelievable for a new product announcement.
    Wow,

    as already stated several times - just stop reading about this new "ugly" M and even better, do not consider buying it!

    That saves you lot of headache and all the other members in this forum as well - ok?

    Just a recommendation ....
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Just some additional thoughts. Personally speaking for myself, the big question as some have alluded to is ultimately the full rez images this camera produces, especially with the change to CMOS. In one sense I think those at the helm at Leica are acutely aware of the expectations that most are placing on this new 24mp sensor and that the look and quality of the files it produces not only matches, but exceeds those from the M9. On the other hand, something tells me Leica was determined to announce and show the prototype of this camera at Photokina and for whatever reason, it wasn't near being ready, especially from the standpoint of final sensor and/or firmware development and thus no files or full scale images were publicly displayed or available.

    If this is the case Leica might feel that they won't actually release the camera until which time they feel its ready and if that means a delay in early 2013, so be it. As long as full rez files aren't released, image wise, there is nothing to criticize (or praise) in terms of image quality. So ultimately there will be a lot of conjecture, both ways, until which time there are files to play with.

    As for EVF and other external bits and pieces, as Guy, myself and other have stated it would have been nice if the EVF had been somehow incorporated into the internal optical finder as some sort of overlay that could be turned "on" or "off" as desired, I think whether it was a technical, financial or design decision, it as far as Leica wanted to go for this round of a new M. As Marc has pointed out, keep all these devices away and off the new M, and basically the camera appears close to the look and handling of an M9, except with the incorporated LV and other improvements (and new 24mp sensor of course). Once the EVF and/or other external options are attached, I too, without handling this new camera, feel it's a bit bloated. Heck, even when I attach a regular external optical finder to a M9, I feel it has already changed its handling/compact feel.

    No doubt this new camera with many of its associated accessories and ultimately their performance and handling is going to be very subjective. Its just what some want and other don't....and a few of us, maybe right in the middle.

    I can't say for sure if this is sort of an interim product in the sense that in the future, some of the external options will eventually find their way inside the camera, such as a hybrid finder and maybe that external mic. Hard to say, but if they do, then some will feel it's even more like a feature laden DSLR and further away from the traditional M rangefinder roots. That is why I believe Leica made the conscious decision to keep a M9 like camera such as the ME in the product line and for the time being, such a more classic digital M rangefinder will always be available, as an alternative.

    *** P.S. I should also add that Leica may have made the conscious decision not to incorporate a hybrid finder at this time, one up to their standards, simply due to the costs involved and with the desire to keep the price point of the digital M from climbing ever high as it's done since the introduction of the original M8. With making the external EVF optional as well as the mic etc., the've given options to the pricing structue of this system while keeping the costs of the camera itself down (relatively speaking). With regards to keeping its present price point, I think most would agree, this was a pleasent surprise, even though these cameras are still very expensive.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 22nd September 2012 at 08:40.
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  21. #221
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Wow,

    as already stated several times - just stop reading about this new "ugly" M and even better, do not consider buying it!

    That saves you lot of headache and all the other members in this forum as well - ok?

    Just a recommendation ....
    Just a rude recommendation.

    My opinion on the merits (or lack thereof) of the latest M are just as valid as yours. As the owner of two M9s and more M mount lenses than I care to admit I have a very real interest in the new M's IQ, which is all that really matters to me, even at the expense of ergonomics. I am hoping for the best, but after hearing Thorsten Overgaard's interview with Stefan Daniel I have a very uneasy feeling.

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by StephenPatterson View Post
    Godfrey, I'm simply saying that without demonstrating IQ there is nothing to consider. Until we have full resolution images to view and compare it's just a gadget with a red dot that hopes to become a camera. In the meantime I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid.

    For anyone who hasn't seen the sample images on Leica's website they are 800x542 pixel jpegs (96 pixels/inch) coming in under 150K size. Unbelievable for a new product announcement.
    I agree and disagree.

    I think there are a lot of folks interested in what the IQ looks like from the CMOS sensor in comparison to the current CCD ... and I'm one of those people.

    Whether it matches the M9 isn't the question in my mind, it is what does the new sensor bring to the party in combination with the M lenses? The other question is how much post work will be necessary to optimize the out-put?

    I ordered one which I don't expect to be delivered until infinity to the second power ... plenty of time to watch how it goes . The M won't be mine until I give them the money ... so I'm in the driver's seat.

    I'm sure they are at the tweak/firmware/tweak some more/test/firmware etc. stage.

    I'm glad they announced it now so I don't blow my money on something else. That cash is now earmarked for the M happily gaining .0002% interest in the bank

    -Marc
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    A friend just sent me this link to DN's site on the new sensor:

    Technical Sensor Details of New M | La Vida Leica!
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Just some additional thoughts. Personally speaking for myself, the big question as some have alluded to is ultimately the full rez images this camera produces, especially with the change to CMOS. In one sense I think those at the helm at Leica are acutely aware of the expectations that most are placing on this new 24mp sensor and that the look and quality of the files it produces not only matches, but exceeds those from the M9. On the other hand, something tells me Leica was determined to announce and show the prototype of this camera at Photokina and for whatever reason, it wasn't near being ready, especially from the standpoint of final sensor and/or firmware development and thus no files or full scale images were publicly displayed or available.

    If this is the case Leica might feel that they won't actually release the camera until which time they feel its ready and if that means a delay in early 2013, so be it. As long as full rez files aren't released, image wise, there is nothing to criticize (or praise) in terms of image quality. So ultimately there will be a lot of conjecture, both ways, until which time there are files to play with.

    As for EVF and other external bits and pieces, as Guy, myself and other have stated it would have been nice if the EVF had been somehow incorporated into the internal optical finder as some sort of overlay that could be turned "on" or "off" as desired, I think whether it was a technical, financial or design decision, it as far as Leica wanted to go for this round of a new M. As Marc has pointed out, keep all these devices away and off the new M, and basically the camera appears close to the look and handling of an M9, except with the incorporated LV and other improvements (and new 24mp sensor of course). Once the EVF and/or other external options are attached, I too, without handling this new camera, feel it's a bit bloated. Heck, even when I attach a regular external optical finder to a M9, I feel it has already changed its handling/compact feel.

    No doubt this new camera with many of its associated accessories and ultimately their performance and handling is going to be very subjective. Its just what some want and other don't....and a few of us, maybe right in the middle.

    I can't say for sure if this is sort of an interim product in the sense that in the future, some of the external options will eventually find their way inside the camera, such as a hybrid finder and maybe that external mic. Hard to say, but if they do, then some will feel it's even more like a feature laden DSLR and further away from the traditional M rangefinder roots. That is why I believe Leica made the conscious decision to keep a M9 like camera such as the ME in the product line and for the time being, such a more classic digital M rangefinder will always be available, as an alternative.

    *** P.S. I should also add that Leica may have made the conscious decision not to incorporate a hybrid finder at this time, one up to their standards, simply due to the costs involved and with the desire to keep the price point of the digital M from climbing ever high as it's done since the introduction of the original M8. With making the external EVF optional as well as the mic etc., the've given options to the pricing structue of this system while keeping the costs of the camera itself down (relatively speaking). With regards to keeping its present price point, I think most would agree, this was a pleasent surprise, even though these cameras are still very expensive.

    Dave (D&A)
    The question is ... is there a EVF up to their standards ... or a lot of their users standards? Putting half-baked technology into a $7,000 camera is a poor idea IMO ... I think Leica did the right thing for this itteration of the M camera.

    Actually, the notion of a clip-on EVF hit home for me yesterday. Since my eye surgery, I'm back shooting weddings with the M9 ... and a revolving EVF would have been a God sent last night what with all the bending and kneeling for 9 hours ... and me with a bum knee and bad back flaring up.

    Coulda used ISO 3200 also.

    -Marc
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The question is ... is there a EVF up to their standards ... or a lot of their users standards? Putting half-baked technology into a $7,000 camera is a poor idea IMO ... I think Leica did the right thing for this itteration of the M camera.

    Actually, the notion of a clip-on EVF hit home for me yesterday. Since my eye surgery, I'm back shooting weddings with the M9 ... and a revolving EVF would have been a God sent last night what with all the bending and kneeling for 9 hours ... and me with a bum knee and bad back flaring up.

    Coulda used ISO 3200 also.

    -Marc
    Marc, thats the $64,000 question (or is it now up to 64 million $$ taking inflation into account. )

    Even if Leica was considering putting in a hybrid viewfinder where it's basically an optical one, until one "calls up" a electronic overlay with a push of a button, it had to both be up to Leica's and their users standards as well as be within the relm of economic feasability.

    Of course even if both objectives were met, it still wouldn't have been of help with having to bend and kneel in the situation you described, if it was indeed, internal. My guess is even if Leica at some point incorporated a hybrid viewfinder (up to their standards) within a M digital rangefinder, the option to use an external rotatable one would still be available for purchase.

    Dave (D&A)

    Wh

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    I quite agree with everyone .. . . . the image quality has to be good, otherwise it's no good to anyone.

    I think it's unfortunate that everyone thinks it's fatter than an M9 (somebody at photokina compared the base plates and said that it's is exactly the same size, so the extra 5mm is in the thumb grip).

    Stephen, I don't understand your problem apart from the unknown IQ - you can shoot it just like your M9, with no bells and whistles and no bloat). The Olympus EVF is really quite good, and I agree with Marc, better to have an optional, upgradeable EVF than a compulsory built in one.

    As for the hybrid/overlay viewfinder - later maybe, but I simply don't understand how you go about getting the registration right for the overlay when you have to make it compatible with hundreds of different M lenses - desirable perhaps, but hard to conceive.

    Leica will release full size samples when the camera is ready (they certainly did with the MM) They've said it won't ship until 2013, so it obviously isn't ready yet! It doesn't mean there is a problem,

    all the best

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by StephenPatterson View Post
    Godfrey, I'm simply saying that without demonstrating IQ there is nothing to consider.
    What if you don't have an M rangefinder or are looking for a second body and would like live view? You would not consider it?

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    The tack on $200 external EVF is simply lazy design.
    So with a weatherproof design and an optical rangefinder, how would you integrate an EVF that can be tilted? It would seem actually difficult to me.
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Jono Wrote>>>"As for the hybrid/overlay viewfinder - later maybe, but I simply don't understand how you go about getting the registration right for the overlay when you have to make it compatible with hundreds of different M lenses - desirable perhaps, but hard to conceive."<<<

    Agree, the technology might not be there now, but as we all know, it eventually gets there. Look how many advances in digital photography many said would never be done or found in cameras, and today they are as common place as anything else. Even a full frame digital M was often being doubted as doable, but eventually got there. (just one of hundreds of examples).

    As for what both Jono and Shashin has expressed regarding a internal EVF not be tiltable, obviously not, but that doesn't mean if a future digital M incorporates a hybrid internal viewfinder, that an external "tiltable" one won't be availble as an optional accessory. We have framelines inside the M9 for 28mm, yet some wearers of glasses choose to use an external 28mm finder on their M9. This would be no different with internal hybrid finders in the "M"...some may ultimately chose to have an external one too for just the reasons mentioned.

    Something tells me though the next winning lottery ticket I find, just isn't going to be enough $$

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    What I find interesting is the hostility toward technology, especially if the cutting-edge technology is not used. The lastest technology does not always make a camera better. EVFs are OK, but are no by default "better" than optical viewfinders. That is simply personal preference. In fact, if you want the lastest and great in photographic technology, that would be an iPhone or a Lytro.

    Photography is hard. Sophisticated technology does not result in good photography. I find most of this technology is simply convenience. I have found the that convenience is the shortest road to mediocrity. I choose a particular camera type for its strengths in how it can shape either how I work or what I see, not because it is easy to use--photography is not that hard and what kind of photographer would I be if I can't focus and expose. I see this melting of technology into one one camera type, the mirrorless with EVF and tilting LCD, as the worst form of mediocrity for photographers.

    The strength of the Leica Ms are that they are optical rangefinders. Leica gives that choice in the marketplace and that is a boon for photographers. Everytime a process or technology disappears, we as photographers lose a little more. If you want an EVF, there are plenty of other companies that can give you that.

    It is funny how we like choice but hate diversity.
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Wow,

    as already stated several times - just stop reading about this new "ugly" M and even better, do not consider buying it!

    That saves you lot of headache and all the other members in this forum as well - ok?

    Just a recommendation ....
    +1 Right on, Peter.

    ---
    So let's see: the M9 has a better sensor than the M8. Nearly every case of a new model Leica superceding the older model, the new model was improved. I'm supposed to worry that Leica will not put a better sensor in their latest flagship M ... ?

    I think that's an unwarranted fear. And if you still don't like it, just stick with what you have.

    For some of us, the new M is exactly what we've been waiting for. I've not owned my M9 for very long, but the additional capabilities of this new M are enough to say "hell!" to the wind and order it, for me.

    Of course, when I bought the M9 earlier in the year, all the folks kept telling me, "omigosh, why buy an M9 now when the new M10 with video and more pixels and all that stuff will blow it away at Photokina? That M9 is an ancient piece of junk with 2009 technology..." And now you all want to tell me I bought the right camera and the new technology you were all singing the praises of six months ago is probably not as good, etc etc. Make up your minds.

    I'll do as I always do: ignore the noise of the naysayers and fan children equally, ignore all the reviews and web distributed sample files which tell me nothing. I'll handle the camera at the store, borrow one if I can, rent one when I can, and evaluate it for myself. Thank you.

    The M9 is delightful. I'm certain the new M improves upon it. I'll buy one when I'm ready and when I think the camera nets me an advantage. I can already tick off five advantages it offers me even without considering pixel peeping the sensor.
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  32. #232
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Funny I ignore the Kool Aid drinkers.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    If you hung a couple of gallery walls with a bunch of fine images, you would not know what camera produced it beyond a few technical cues. Exactly what are we losing out on if we don't have the latest camera?

    Don't get me wrong--I am glad companies are improving on performance and introducing new technology, but that does not make my current camera "inferior" and somehow, by extension, my work.

    P.S. I have been married to the same woman for 19 years and am not thinking an upgrade is going to make my life better...
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Upgrades don't work on wives version 2.0 firmware just never took. Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Firmware is a software stuff, Guy.

  36. #236
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Hmm.

    I know little about wives or upgrading their wares, whether firm or soft.

    Enough of debate on the new M. I'll concentrate on happy news:

    My 1955 Balda Baldix made 11 excellent exposures on the first roll of film I put through it! It would have made 12 if I'd loaded it properly (forgot a step in the loading process at the beginning).


    There's the state of that art for ya. ;-)

    Now to get to scanning ...
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Jono Wrote>>>"As for the hybrid/overlay viewfinder - later maybe, but I simply don't understand how you go about getting the registration right for the overlay when you have to make it compatible with hundreds of different M lenses - desirable perhaps, but hard to conceive."<<<

    Agree, the technology might not be there now, but as we all know, it eventually gets there.
    HI Dave
    I hope they get there as well (to a decent hybrid viewfinder), but it isn't just the technology. . . imagine - you have a 50mm Zeiss sonar attached, you see the framelines in the viewfinder (which are not accurate). Now, we want to overlay focusing information from the sensor - presumably it'll only cover the part of the viewfinder which represents the 50mm lens? - but parallax will change this positioning considerably at different focal lengths, and I don't really see how to correlate what the viewfinder is seeing with what the sensor is.

    I suppose there might be a way to make this useful, but personally I can't see it. Focusing an M with the rangefinder patch for lenses from 28 to 75 is pretty easy, and for longer focal lengths the overlay would be useless anyway.

    On another tack, if you want to switch between OVF and EVF, do you just put the EVF in the part of the framelines where the image will lie? or do you make it (disconcertingly) fill the viewfinder.

    It's one of those things which is easy to SAY, but quite tough to work out helpfully.

    I know I sound like an apologist, but it seems to me that the M does a grand job of keeping the gestalt whilst adding facilities to allow (me) not to carry a dSLR around for macro and telephoto, and for me that's a fantastic bonus.

    As for the Kool Aid - drink what you like! The one thing we all agree on, is that ultimate success hinges around the image quality, but if that's good, then I don't see much to complain about. Leica have answered the questions that most people have asked, and they've done it without compromising the camera as a real M.


    all the best

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  38. #238
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Dave
    I hope they get there as well (to a decent hybrid viewfinder), but it isn't just the technology. . . imagine - you have a 50mm Zeiss sonar attached, you see the framelines in the viewfinder (which are not accurate). Now, we want to overlay focusing information from the sensor - presumably it'll only cover the part of the viewfinder which represents the 50mm lens? - but parallax will change this positioning considerably at different focal lengths, and I don't really see how to correlate what the viewfinder is seeing with what the sensor is.

    I suppose there might be a way to make this useful, but personally I can't see it. Focusing an M with the rangefinder patch for lenses from 28 to 75 is pretty easy, and for longer focal lengths the overlay would be useless anyway.

    On another tack, if you want to switch between OVF and EVF, do you just put the EVF in the part of the framelines where the image will lie? or do you make it (disconcertingly) fill the viewfinder.

    It's one of those things which is easy to SAY, but quite tough to work out helpfully.

    I know I sound like an apologist, but it seems to me that the M does a grand job of keeping the gestalt whilst adding facilities to allow (me) not to carry a dSLR around for macro and telephoto, and for me that's a fantastic bonus.

    As for the Kool Aid - drink what you like! The one thing we all agree on, is that ultimate success hinges around the image quality, but if that's good, then I don't see much to complain about. Leica have answered the questions that most people have asked, and they've done it without compromising the camera as a real M.


    all the best
    Jono,

    There is little that I don't agree with in all you expressed. My thoughts regarding a hybrid viewfinder is predicated on the assumption that it would be implemented in ways we haven't thought of yet or technology that doesn't yet exist. Yet things we can only dream or hope for, eventually materialize in a way that is both useful and makes sense. One day I have no doubt that Leica will make a ideal hybrid viewfinder a reality. This is no different when the original M2/M3 film cameras were first released and some could only dream of having 24mm, 28mm or even the 135mm frame lines exist inside the internal finder of an M rangefinder. Could any of us have dreamewd of a 37mp 35mm type SLR when the original Nikon 2.7MP D1 DSLR was originally released?

    As for the quality of the new M sensor and what its images and the quality is going to be like...I have complete confidence that it will, like all successive generations of digital cameras, be an advancement over M9 files. What I think might be more productive to contemplate, is not whether the new M files are better than the current M9, but simply how they might appear visually to be different, based upon the basic premise that one is CMOS based and the other CCD. It may end up that simply the look of one may be prefered by some over the other and visa versa. When it arrives, all these questions will be answered and I'm looking forward to that time.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 23rd September 2012 at 07:05.
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by edwardkaraa View Post
    Sorry, but it seems both lines are fully illuminated by the LED, exactly as in the older VF.

    From David Farkas report:

    ...... frame lines are still in three sets.......
    Edward - Thank you for answering my enquiry. I had hoped that the wretched twinning of framelines had been finally superseded. My interest was misled by the Overgaard 'first impressions' :

    No manual selection of frame lines and you only see the actual frame lines for the actual lens, not two pairs.
    David Farkas account is unambiguous unfortunately.

    ............... Chris

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    To my knowledge of Leica they ALWAYS try and tried hard to really improve from one generation to the next - be it cameras or lenses or what else. And this BTW is the reason some of us (including myself) are sometimes impatient with them, many times I would even say this was right.

    But why should I believe (or do so many here believe) that they have changed from this behavior for the development of the new M. They actually did not have too much pressure to bring this PK a new M, as the M9's are still sold out and a highly demanded camera. So my full trust in them that they are doing things right WRT IQ!

    Interesting to see all the naysayers, many of them were asking for a new M with exactly the features it offers now, but suddenly no longer so sure if all their wishes were right?

    I for myself stood away from the M9 (although I knew it is a wonderful camera) just because I was missing a number of those features the M is finally promising. Now I am really happy to have the option getting the M in 2013 and finally awake all my wonderful M glass to life again in a never known way before.

    Exciting times ahead
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Define "naysayers." Are they people who say they'd like to see an image captured by a newly designed camera before they decide they are going to buy it?

    It's a camera, not a religious doctrine. Unlike the Pope, Leica is not infallible.

  42. #242
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Define "naysayers." Are they people who say they'd like to see an image captured by a newly designed camera before they decide they are going to buy it?

    It's a camera, not a religious doctrine. Unlike the Pope, Leica is not infallible.
    Hi Stephen - quite agree that we need to see the IQ . . . . . but Peter does have a point here - there are a number of features which were commonly requested, which somehow don't seem so popular now they've been offered.

    i'd say that a Naysayer was someone who said of the M9:
    buffer too slow
    LCD rubbish (too low resolution, not showing detail)
    high ISO not good enough
    no weather sealing

    . . . and is now saying of the M
    No hybrid EVF
    I don't want a CMOS sensor
    I don't want to pay for live view, video and all that stuff as I'll never use it
    . . etc

    with absolute no mention of the fact that the complaints of the M9 have largely been corrected.

    it's pretty standard internet stuff I'd say.

    all the best

    . . . . . ps, glad to hear that the Pope IS infallible, I've heard some naysayers around here
    Last edited by jonoslack; 23rd September 2012 at 13:48.

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    I agree and while live view through the rear screen isn't always ideal I will admit that it's a great benefit to have it as an option. That being said I use my NEX camera this way pretty much exclusively so I have some practice. So while it's true I prefer framing through a viewfinder 90% of the time there are times where EVF is effective and convenient.
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post

    . . . . . ps, glad to hear that the Pope IS infallible, I've heard some naysayers around here
    Hugh Latimer, Bishop and Martyr 16 October 1555
    Nicholas Ridley, Bishop and Martyr 16 October 1555
    Thomas Cranmer, Bishop and Martyr 21 March 1556

    Mark 10:18

    And I have heard a few in these parts.....

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Stephen - quite agree that we need to see the IQ . . . . . but Peter does have a point here - there are a number of features which were commonly requested, which somehow don't seem so popular now they've been offered.

    i'd say that a Naysayer was someone who said of the M9:
    buffer too slow
    LCD rubbish (too low resolution, not showing detail)
    high ISO not good enough
    no weather sealing

    . . . and is now saying of the M
    No hybrid EVF
    I don't want a CMOS sensor
    I don't want to pay for live view, video and all that stuff as I'll never use it
    . . etc

    with absolute no mention of the fact that the complaints of the M9 have largely been corrected.

    it's pretty standard internet stuff I'd say.

    all the best

    . . . . . ps, glad to hear that the Pope IS infallible, I've heard some naysayers around here
    Hi Jono

    There is no doubt, in mind, that Leica had to deliver LV, EVF, video, and so on with their next generation digital M. If people don't want to use these new features, then that's fine. Just shoot the M as if it's an M9. However, I'm firmly in the camp with those that wants this new functionality. Shooting wides and teles on the M9, for example, is a PITA. And I would love to leave the camcorder behind when I travel.

    Leica have clearly addressed many of the complaints with the M9, like high ISO IQ, low-res LCD, buffer size, and so on (none of which concern me). But these were easy to address. 24MP CMOS and faster electronics are a-dime-a-dozen nowadays.

    My gripe with the M is the way the new features have been implemented. Take the EVF. My concern is not just that it is an ugly bolt on affair but that it is also a very average EVF. A Leica M body with typical lens tops $10k. The rebadged Olympus EVF is old hat and sells for a couple hundred bucks. When I shoot an M, I want to feel like I'm shooting an M, not some P&S (I already have a drawer full of those).

    My other issue with the bolt on EVF is that if I want to shoot video in stereo (which I do) then it appears I need to remove the EVF and bolt on a stereo mike. Surely, the stereo mikes could have been incorporated into the body. As it stands, you can't shoot video in stereo via the EVF. This is bonkers.

    As some have said, if it doesn't suit, walk away. But it's not that easy. I've been shooting Leica M for almost 20 years and love the stuff to bits. I was looking forward to a little more class and ingenuity from Leica with their next generation M digital.

    Vin

    PS. Do you honestly believe that Leica couldn't have done just a little better than this (see image below)?
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    Hi Jono

    There is no doubt, in mind, that Leica had to deliver LV, EVF, video, and so on with their next generation digital M. If people don't want to use these new features, then that's fine. Just shoot the M as if it's an M9. However, I'm firmly in the camp with those that wants this new functionality. Shooting wides and teles on the M9, for example, is a PITA. And I would love to leave the camcorder behind when I travel.

    Leica have clearly addressed many of the complaints with the M9, like high ISO IQ, low-res LCD, buffer size, and so on (none of which concern me). But these were easy to address. 24MP CMOS and faster electronics are a-dime-a-dozen nowadays.

    My gripe with the M is the way the new features have been implemented. Take the EVF. My concern is not just that it is an ugly bolt on affair but that it is also a very average EVF. A Leica M body with typical lens tops $10k. The rebadged Olympus EVF is old hat and sells for a couple hundred bucks. When I shoot an M, I want to feel like I'm shooting an M, not some P&S (I already have a drawer full of those).

    My other issue with the bolt on EVF is that if I want to shoot video in stereo (which I do) then it appears I need to remove the EVF and bolt on a stereo mike. Surely, the stereo mikes could have been incorporated into the body. As it stands, you can't shoot video in stereo via the EVF. This is bonkers.

    As some have said, if it doesn't suit, walk away. But it's not that easy. I've been shooting Leica M for almost 20 years and love the stuff to bits. I was looking forward to a little more class and ingenuity from Leica with their next generation M digital.

    Vin

    PS. Do you honestly believe that Leica couldn't have done just a little better than this (see image below)?
    I actually like very much what I see on this picture.

    Sometimes less is more!
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Sometimes less is more!
    I absolutely agree, sometimes less is more. A lesson Leica learned when the M4 was brought back after the introduction of the M5.

  48. #248
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    I think the great thing is that if you keep the evf off camera this is still the great kind of rangefinder camera many like.
    And you still can buy an ME if you dont need any of the improvements.

    Look at Sony ... if you want ff its the A99 and you dodnt even have the option to use an OVF.

    For my part I dont see that there is much to criticize regarding the "M".

    The only slight concern I have that it looses a little bit of its simplicity.
    And I need to find out if I need/use the improvements over the M9.
    I have to say though that for use of my 135/3.4 or Macro lenses the live view option doesnt hurt, and the better display doesnt hurt, and rugged and weatherproof is great.
    So I am afraid as much I say I dodnt need all that I might replace my M9 with the M (if the IQ is up to my taste) but also keep the MM.

    Tom
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Actually if the last few years have taught me anything it's that Leica is masterful at variations on a theme. I have no doubt that by this time next year Leica will introduce the M-P (not to be confused with the MP), which will be the new CMOS sensor in the Monochrom body. No movies, no microphones, no thumb wheel, no live view buttons (but please give us back the frame preview lever), just images from a rangefinder.

    Seriously, I don't want to come across as a naysayer, but I am a bit sad at where this new M is going. As an analogy I offer the Supermarine Spitfire.

    Throughout the late 1930s and early 1940s the Spitfire went through a number of improvements to refine the design and improve performance. The Mk. V and Mk. IX are perhaps the best balance of power and handling of any WW2 fighter. But people wanted MORE. More speed, more altitude, make it a fighter/bomber...and so the Spit got heavy. Gone was the Merlin, replaced by the huge Griffon, clip the wings, cut down the turtle deck, slap on a bubble canopy, even add counter rotating props to Navy versions. In the end the Mk. 24 was twice as heavy with almost double the horsepower of the Mk. V but lost much of the superb handling that made it such a wonderful fighter.

    I am absolutely wishing for amazing IQ from the new M, and when the improvements are demonstrated I will probably buy one, but that doesn't mean I have to be happy about every decision that went into making this new Leica.

  50. #250
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Guys,

    Can someone who knows answer two Qns for me :

    Looking through the M's optional EVF will the photographer be able to see/use ‘Live View Zoom’ (option enabling up to 10 x magnification for precise assessment of the sharpness of subject) ?

    Looking through the M's optional EVF will the photographer see/be able to use ‘Live View Focus Peaking’ (contours in the subject are automatically displayed as red lines to allow simple and convenient focus assessment) ?

    Your help will be greatly appreciated.

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