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Thread: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

  1. #251
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Guys,

    Can someone who knows answer two Qns for me :

    Looking through the M's optional EVF will the photographer be able to see/use ‘Live View Zoom’ (option enabling up to 10 x magnification for precise assessment of the sharpness of subject) ?

    Looking through the M's optional EVF will the photographer see/be able to use ‘Live View Focus Peaking’ (contours in the subject are automatically displayed as red lines to allow simple and convenient focus assessment) ?

    Your help will be greatly appreciated.
    Both are possible when using the EVF.

    The only thing you can't do in the EVF that you can on the LCD is change menu settings. These don't display in EVF.

    Hope this helps.
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Both are possible when using the EVF.

    The only thing you can't do in the EVF that you can on the LCD is change menu settings. These don't display in EVF.

    Hope this helps.
    Thank you David, this is very helpful!
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    The EVF is a great idea for me. I love shooting stuff at ground level and using it like my Rolleiflex WLF is something I am looking forward too. I am on the list but fully expect to see Leica release sample images before the M ships as Jono has pointed out. I was burned with M8 as well. I think the flexibility offered by the bolt-on accessories is a superb idea. If you want the M to resemble a DSLR for whatever reason bolt them on and if you are walking around on street leave them at home. Seems like perfect world for me.
    David
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Until you have actually spent time working with an EVF you don't realize the issues that need to be addressed and that it does not appear that Leica has addressed. The first of these is frame rate. You need 60 fps at minimum, 120 would be better. Other wise two things happen that will drive you nuts. The first is that as you pan looking through the EVF the image will waiver and the second is you will experience blackouts and the image will jump when it reappears due to camera movement.

    Next, is using a magnified area for focusing is not that easy under at least two conditions. The first, is when the lens is stopped down and the DOF is large. It is very hard to find the focus point. The X2, the GXR and now the XPRO-1 hold the lens wide open during manual focusing and stop down to shooting aperture just before taking the picture. The second is that at high magnification that image jumps all over the place making focusing and composing extremely difficult. The OMD with its viewfinder stabilization is the first EVF you can actually use the MF with and its refresh rate at 60fps is fast enough so that blackout and jitter is truly minimized. I have the Oly VF-2 and the OMD and the VF-2 (I use it on an XZ-1) is not as good. The new Sony EVF is purported to be a big step up from these and from their NEX-7 EVF so we will see how well they work. The OVF in the X100/XPRO-1 is still hard to beat.

    It seems unlikely that Leica will be able to add a new higher frame rte EVF to the camera and I suspect it won't be long before users are complaining about it or maybe not given the pablum some users will tolerate. The EVF in the X100 is 30fps and I can tell you that it is only marginally useable. It isn't even close to the OMD's EVF in use.

    I think the other mistake Leica is making is not reducing the body size. It has continued to grow in size and weight and the big advantage of not having to lug a DSLR is rapidly going by the way side. Add the grip, EVF, additional hot shoe flash and R adapter and you have a kludge DSLR that is neither DSLR nor RF. Sort of the Frankenstein M. While Leica lenses are often smaller than DSLR lenses, they are not lighter so the total package becomes a very heavy one to lug around. No longer the sleek, quiet and low weight carry everywhere camera.

    Last comment, it has taken Sony, Nikon and Canon several years to get CMOS sensors to where they are today. Can this new company (CMOSIS) do what has taken the big guys several years to develop in less than a year? Maybe there is enough non-proprietary information out there for them to do it but I would have to see it to believe it. Also, the Maestro processor was designed for a CCD sensor so what changes had to be made to make it work with a CMOS sensor and how well is the integration working? I guess we will see in January, if they can deliver then, whether these are valid concerns or not.
    V/r John
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  5. #255
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    John

    Excellent post thanks for sharing your experience with various EVF . I found the Nex 7 (EVF)frustrating with the 135APo m(my primary interest) but could see the benefits easily with the 50 1.4asph(focus peaking) . Not an inditement which wouldn t be fair but its not the same as having a high quality traditional SLR viewfinder.

    AS an experienced R user ..the R bodies were always know for their bright clear viewfinders ..best in class . So whlle you may be able to mount and use R lenses on the new M ..for me its not even close to an R solution . The S2 viewfinder is my idea of an R solution and Leica has made it clear its not happening. I use R glass on my D800E as a point of reference .

    Nice new capability but way over sold showing large heavy R zooms ? The NEW R solution please...its not .

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    I should have also discussed the lag that occurs because what is being displayed is a fraction of a second behind reality. The result is that as you press for the decisive moment you see in the viewfinder it is too late as it has already passed. Perhaps a real life example of what I mean is best illustrated by the security camera business. The casinos use 60 fps as the minimum acceptable frame rate and prefer 120 fps because a practiced con is so fast that the camera will not catch the cheat at slower frame rates and the casino security will see nothing wrong while viewing the live feed. The hand is quicker than the eye. I have tried various Panasonic's and Olympus cameras with EVFs and none was good enough to be really usable except for the Em-5. The Fuji EVF is horrible but not as bad as some of the other EVFs I used. The best by far has been the EM-5 and that is due to its superb 5 axis stabilization and 60 fps frame rate. The image jumping around during focusing always drove me nuts.

    Leica chose 30fps and with the large sensor it will be a problem with image tearing and black outs during shooting. Leica really should have licensed the Hybrid VF from Fuji or developed their own. As Guy has stated, even a simple approach like center point focus confirmation in an OVF would have been better for most applications (not necessarily R lens use but you really need VF stabilization to use an EVF at any level of magnification on a long lens).
    V/r John
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Why should Leica license the deficient EVF from Fuji again? To get their non focusing optical viewfinder, which is nowhere near as good as the one Leica provides?

    Makes no sense. The Fuji viewfinder was my first disappointment with the X100 and Xpro1. An unusable EVF for me; the Ricoh GXR's EVF and focus aids are much better, although they set the magnification a little low.

    It's obvious that the M is a rangefinder camera first. It's been enhanced with the option of using an EVF for when that is appropriate and useful. That's all. I bet that many will never use it as it is unnecessary for most work with the standard range of RF lens focal lengths.

    I was also under the impression that the EVF2 (Olympu VF-2) refresh rate was 30fps on the XZ-1, but on the Pen and X2 bodies it is run at 60fps. Not sure why Leica would run it at 30fps on the M body ... the only source which suggests that is Sean Reid's review. At 30fps it is less useful, but if they support the 60fps it is capable of on the X2 body, or even the 120 fps it is capable of on the E-M5, it will be just fine for its intended purpose.

    Yes, an EVF (and LCD) is quite different in use from either a reflex or a tunnel optical finder. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. How nice that Leica affords us the option of all three with the new M.
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  8. #258
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    Until you have actually spent time working with an EVF you don't realize the issues that need to be addressed and that it does not appear that Leica has addressed.
    Hi There John
    Good post. Like you, I've spent a lot of time with EVFs now, and the only one which really comes up to scratch is that on the EM5 - sure, it's the same piece of kit as in the VF2, but what's supplied to it is quite different, and it's the image stabilisation and fast refresh rate which makes it really workable.

    As Godfrey says, the VF2 works well on the X2, without any obvious disadvantages (tearing, time delay). I have not looked through it on the M yet, so I can't comment on the actual implementation (can you?). I don't even know what the refresh rate will be (presumably it doesn't have to be the same as the video frame rate?)

    As far as magnification (zooming) for precise focus is concerned - I agree with you, without IS it's not really useable on longer lenses due to the wobbling about. Which makes it really good that they've implemented focus peaking, which DOES work well with longer lenses, and also works well when stopped down.

    The camera is only bigger if you attach all the bits (it is optional!). I'm assuming that the target audience is someone who is a rangefinder shooter, but who occasionally has telephoto and macro intentions (after all, SLR cameras aren't that great as rangefinders).

    Licensing the Fuji hybrid finder would presumably have meant dropping the mechanical rangefinder and using the Fuji EVF (which is, IMHO, horrible).

    The feedback from those who tried the camera with R lenses at photokina was pretty positive - maybe all is not what you are assuming!

    all the best

    Just this guy you know
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  9. #259
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    I have used the Nex EVF, the Oly VF2 and the Oly in the OMD and the Fuji.
    For my taste I prefer the Oly and even the Fuji EVF over the Nex. In light witout much contrast the Sony is great and detailed. But when it gets sunny and harsh light I often found it too dark.
    The Fuji is not great but better in this regard, even though the color is all off and the resolution not so great.
    And while the color of the Oly is also somewhat off I prefer the Oly over the others so far.
    I have only looked through EVF on the "M" for a few minutes and cant comment on the refresh rate - but it looked ok for me . With the 100/2.8 R I found focusing with magnification and focus peaking to work quite good.
    I am not a EVF but for occasional use this Leica/Oly viewfinder would be fine for my needs.
    If I planned to use Tele often I would choose a SLR with OVF anyways.
    Last edited by Paratom; 25th September 2012 at 07:24.
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    Senior Member Gary Clennan's Avatar
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Will non-m mount lenses (eg. Nikkor, etc) be able to be utilized on the new M considering it has live view? I know there are adapters but am not sure if anything else limits their use on the M.

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Clennan View Post
    Will non-m mount lenses (eg. Nikkor, etc) be able to be utilized on the new M considering it has live view? I know there are adapters but am not sure if anything else limits their use on the M.
    Of course! That's the beauty of the typ 240

    Practically any SLR lens can be adapted.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    That's what I was thinking but you never know with Leica... Thanks Edward!

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by edwardkaraa View Post
    Of course! That's the beauty of the typ 240

    Practically any SLR lens can be adapted.
    Added to which the adapters for M mount already exist (Contax, Nikon etc.).

    Just this guy you know

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    Smile Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Thank you Jono for this wonderful book.
    Cheers, Volker

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi There John
    Good post. Like you, I've spent a lot of time with EVFs now, and the only one which really comes up to scratch is that on the EM5 - sure, it's the same piece of kit as in the VF2, but what's supplied to it is quite different, and it's the image stabilisation and fast refresh rate which makes it really workable.

    As Godfrey says, the VF2 works well on the X2, without any obvious disadvantages (tearing, time delay). I have not looked through it on the M yet, so I can't comment on the actual implementation (can you?). I don't even know what the refresh rate will be (presumably it doesn't have to be the same as the video frame rate?)

    As far as magnification (zooming) for precise focus is concerned - I agree with you, without IS it's not really useable on longer lenses due to the wobbling about. Which makes it really good that they've implemented focus peaking, which DOES work well with longer lenses, and also works well when stopped down.

    The camera is only bigger if you attach all the bits (it is optional!). I'm assuming that the target audience is someone who is a rangefinder shooter, but who occasionally has telephoto and macro intentions (after all, SLR cameras aren't that great as rangefinders).

    Licensing the Fuji hybrid finder would presumably have meant dropping the mechanical rangefinder and using the Fuji EVF (which is, IMHO, horrible).

    The feedback from those who tried the camera with R lenses at photokina was pretty positive - maybe all is not what you are assuming!

    all the best
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Saw this in the specs PDF on the Leica M website - and got really worried:

    Shutter Speed: 1/4000s – 60s (in Bulb)

    Does it really max out at a paltry 60 seconds? That would be...unheard of, for a modern CMOS sensor.

    Can anyone verify this?

    Ray

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    Saw this in the specs PDF on the Leica M website - and got really worried:

    Shutter Speed: 1/4000s – 60s (in Bulb)

    Does it really max out at a paltry 60 seconds? That would be...unheard of, for a modern CMOS sensor.

    Can anyone verify this?

    Ray
    It may not be a limitation of the sensor. It could be the shutter requires an electromagnet be energised to keep it open and that could drain the battery.

    Bob.

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Thanks, Bob. But even SLRs and DSLRs which require a battery to keep the shutter open (AND the mirror up: a further power drain which the Leica M doesn't have) can take a B exposure of at least a couple of hours on a single battery/charge. So...that's hardly it.

    Someone must have tested long exposures on the new M by now??

    Ray

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    Thanks, Bob. But even SLRs and DSLRs which require a battery to keep the shutter open (AND the mirror up: a further power drain which the Leica M doesn't have) can take a B exposure of at least a couple of hours on a single battery/charge. So...that's hardly it.

    Someone must have tested long exposures on the new M by now??
    There aren't any production new Ms yet to test. ;-)

    While many cameras can run extended untimed exposure lengths, most do very very poorly at it: heat buildup causes lots and lots of noise. I don't know many that go much beyond 8 minutes.

    If I need extended exposure times longer than a couple of minutes, I usually just pull out a film camera. Then I just have film reciprocity to deal with ...
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    Saw this in the specs PDF on the Leica M website - and got really worried:

    Shutter Speed: 1/4000s – 60s (in Bulb)

    Does it really max out at a paltry 60 seconds? That would be...unheard of, for a modern CMOS sensor.

    Can anyone verify this?

    Ray
    HI Ray
    I'm not sure where you saw this, but I don't think it's right

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Ray
    I'm not sure where you saw this, but I don't think it's right

    all the best

    Hi Jono,

    It's here:
    Technische_Daten_Leica M_EN

    It's also in Leica's press release that Guy pasted right at the start of this thread.

    Ray

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    There aren't any production new Ms yet to test. ;-)
    OK, cool. I was just thinking that reviewers usually get their hands on early samples well before they hit the general market.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    While many cameras can run extended untimed exposure lengths, most do very very poorly at it: heat buildup causes lots and lots of noise. I don't know many that go much beyond 8 minutes.
    8 minutes is nothing really. Astro exposures are often much longer than that. I routinely shoot 2 minute subs at ISO 1600 on a 5DII...same dark noise impact as 16 minutes at ISO 200. And that's without any real need for dark-frame subtraction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    If I need extended exposure times longer than a couple of minutes, I usually just pull out a film camera. Then I just have film reciprocity to deal with ...
    ...and poor shadow detail. But I do it too, albeit more for other reasons (like spectral response, and just using certain film cameras that I love) than for avoiding dark noise.

    Ray

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    There are no production M's anywhere right now.

    I was at a Fellowship group visit to Leica's smart suite in Mayfair, London on Tuesday hoping to see one, even if it was only a pre-production model. The M-E was available, the Paul Smith X2 and the Pana Leica latest offerings, but that was all.

    In fact the top staff and management were available to answer questions and it soon became very apparent that they have very little information to hand about the M or the R lens adaptor. However they did state that a form of focus peaking will be included but they couldn't answer my question whether this would be available with the accessory Visoflex (Olympus) EVF viewfinder, it will definitely be included when viewing the LCD screen.

    Most of them had handled the M at Photokina, purely momentarily as it was quickly snatched away from them. They did say however that the final specifications were not determined and once they were, Leica sales and technical staff would be advised.

    The target date for launch is January, but they couldn't advise which year!! (Fellowship joke!) At the same time as the M is launched the M9 will cease production, but the Monochrom will continue in it's present form.

    We were let loose in their bespoke studio fitted with massive Elinchrom Strobes and an S2 tethered to a MacPRo with two Eizo screens.

    The new S2 may be available as early as December this year and the changes are very useful indeed, with sharper AF and many other smaller but important changes for pro photographers. The new leaf shutter lenses will also be rolled out starting next year. The S2 is a very desirable camera indeed and the drooling started the second my hands landed on it!

    Pity I am trying to cut down on camera bulk and weight.
    Cheers, Dave
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    OK, cool. I was just thinking that reviewers usually get their hands on early samples well before they hit the general market.
    Early samples aren't distributed yet. All the folks who have hands-on experience with the new M were the folks who went to Photokina and worked with the pre-production prototypes there, with possibly one exception I know of. Those cameras had the SD cards glued into the socket to prevent any samples being extracted as they're not ready yet. The one exception I know of had some experience outside of Photokina, and he hasn't released any of his test photos due to NDA. He did say, however, that his evaluation of the sensor data shows quite positive results from a technical point of view with respect to dynamic range and sensitivity.

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    8 minutes is nothing really. Astro exposures are often much longer than that. I routinely shoot 2 minute subs at ISO 1600 on a 5DII...same dark noise impact as 16 minutes at ISO 200. And that's without any real need for dark-frame subtraction. ...
    That's quite the exception in my experience so far. I'd keep my hands on that camera if I was doing the niche photographic work you are. :-)

    I think in the past decade I've made five exposures that went past 120 seconds, other than for testing. I did make a bunch of 20-50 second exposures a couple of years ago. Obviously, I don't do much astrophotography.

  24. #274
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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Yes , good idea the red focus confirmation dot. I miss not having an Exposure Lock button on my M9. The alternatives are all slower and less convenient. Most of my cameras in the past 10 years have had one - even my Hasselblad 203 FE.
    I can not recall anyone regretting its absence. I wonder if I am the only one?

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilrem View Post
    I miss not having an Exposure Lock button on my M9. ...I can not recall anyone regretting its absence. I wonder if I am the only one?
    If the camera advance mode is set to standard or discrete ( not soft or soft and discrete ) a half press provides AE lock - that's enough for me.
    For multi frame e.g. stitched panoramas, switching to manual is worth the effort.

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Can anyone confirm for certain that the extra 5mm in width(new M vs. M9) is only due to the thumbwheel?
    I cannot find this confirmed anywhere and a bit concerned this body is going to be a D2 brick. I do wish for an MP size digital M, though that looks like a ways off.

    Love to hear more thoughts on the size from those that have fondled... I mean, handled, the new M.

    Thanks,
    Ron

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by rondeb View Post
    Can anyone confirm for certain that the extra 5mm in width(new M vs. M9) is only due to the thumbwheel?
    I cannot find this confirmed anywhere and a bit concerned this body is going to be a D2 brick. I do wish for an MP size digital M, though that looks like a ways off.

    Love to hear more thoughts on the size from those that have fondled... I mean, handled, the new M.

    Thanks,
    Ron
    At a recent Leica Akademie, Justin Stailey, Leica M-system product specialist, put it this way: that the difference in width has to do with the point at which the measurement is taken. In other words, as I understood him, the thumbwheel accounts for the extra 5mm.
    Ed

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by erudolph View Post
    At a recent Leica Akademie, Justin Stailey, Leica M-system product specialist, put it this way: that the difference in width has to do with the point at which the measurement is taken. In other words, as I understood him, the thumbwheel accounts for the extra 5mm.

    Still sounds so cryptic, does it not?

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    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Hi There
    Well, the easiest comparison is looking at the base plate of the camera (which is also the width of the top plate).
    I have it on good authority (the very best) that the base plate of the new M is about 0.6mm wider than that of the M9 - that's about the thickness of the baseplate metal on your M9.
    So, with respect to Ron's question - yes - I can confirm that the extra 5mm is due to the thumbwheel, however there IS a difference, but it's very small indeed.
    In a blind test you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

    Is that Un Cryptic enough

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