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Photokina and the new M

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Steve

Thats been my issue from the beginning . If you watch the Overgaard interview ....he goes right in on the change to CMOS . Whole series of questions that lead to the same conclusion ...its not close to being done . Thorsten knows his stuff and asked all the right follow up questions about the LR color profiles etc .

No doubt that Leica M glass and a sensor without an AA will create superb levels of resolution . I have tested the heck out of using Leica R glass on various Nikon and Canon sensors . You can see the color signature as well as the smooth roll of the OF areas . But it was never as good as using the R glass on the DMR .

Much of the CMOS CCD debate will depend on one s sensitivity to change in the aesthetic . The interview was great because the aesthetic is core to Thorsten s style . The answer he received was .....you may be happier with the new? M-E ..not we are confident you will just love the new files .

This should be the subject of some discussion as the files become available . It is incredibly hard to change a "classic" .
 

dhsimmonds

New member
also no mole reviewers have reported in
This is typical Leica with very strict non-disclosure agreements for beta testers.
Come to think of it our tame leica beta tester has gone a bit quiet lately! ;)

Where are you Jono?
 

StephenPatterson

New member
This is typical Leica with very strict non-disclosure agreements for beta testers.
Non-disclosure agreements only cover information not publicly released. Once Leica announced the new "M" anyone with prior knowledge and experience with the camera could disclose such information without breaking the contract.
 

M8X

New member
It depends on the way the contract is drafted. It can certainly comprise other provisions beyond not revealing non-public information.

@ algrove: Thank you for sharing your experiences with the new M! I am really looking forward to every piece of information on that adorable camera.
 

da_eltsch

Well-known member
Puhh ... today I ran and stand my feet flat on the Photokina. I am really impressed about the size and the variety of items shown there. Actually I am quite lucky not to suffer from G.A.S. these days which made it kind of a relaxed walk around omitting most of the hotspots: canon, nikon, fuji, sony ... at least the parts of their booths that where heavily loaded.

Leica had some real huge space, which gave me the same experience as my first walk into an Apple store a couple years ago. I liked the huge letters which organized the booth into the different stands for each system. The guys really knew their product (which I wouldn't say of all other companies I visited) and "were happy" to answer questions.

My personal highlights where the paper manufacturers and Plustek with the Opticfilm 120 which really looks promising.
The film handlers operated even with medium format reaally smooth. So bad that I didn't have a negative with me ... The results that they have shown where great.

Secondly it was great to viist the paper guys and have a "touch and view" on all those papers. have you ever used TECCO papers?

Regards,
Helge
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Steve

Thats been my issue from the beginning . If you watch the Overgaard interview ....he goes right in on the change to CMOS . Whole series of questions that lead to the same conclusion ...its not close to being done . Thorsten knows his stuff and asked all the right follow up questions about the LR color profiles etc .

No doubt that Leica M glass and a sensor without an AA will create superb levels of resolution . I have tested the heck out of using Leica R glass on various Nikon and Canon sensors . You can see the color signature as well as the smooth roll of the OF areas . But it was never as good as using the R glass on the DMR .

Much of the CMOS CCD debate will depend on one s sensitivity to change in the aesthetic . The interview was great because the aesthetic is core to Thorsten s style . The answer he received was .....you may be happier with the new? M-E ..not we are confident you will just love the new files .

This should be the subject of some discussion as the files become available . It is incredibly hard to change a "classic" .
All these discussions about CMOS vs. CCD remind me on water cooled Porsche engines vs. air cooled. As soon as the 911 was released with air cooled engine (thanks god, it was more than time to do this) the prices of the last air cooled 911's went up, but finally over the past many years the air cooled engines proved to be superior and more open for future upgrades and developments.

Same will happen with Leica M9 and Leica M. Do not hold your breath for M9 IQ being better than M IQ

just my 5c
 

algrove

Well-known member
All these discussions about CMOS vs. CCD remind me on water cooled Porsche engines vs. air cooled. As soon as the 911 was released with air cooled engine (thanks god, it was more than time to do this) the prices of the last air cooled 911's went up, but finally over the past many years the air cooled engines proved to be superior and more open for future upgrades and developments.

Same will happen with Leica M9 and Leica M. Do not hold your breath for M9 IQ being better than M IQ

just my 5c
I am sure you mean water cooled instead of air cooled, No?
 

jonoslack

Active member
Am I the only one surprised that Leica has unveiled the new M and there are no sample images allowed, or for that matter available for download from Leica? The Leica website has three extremely small, low res jpegs, none of which appear to have been shot with a wide angle lens.
This is typical Leica with very strict non-disclosure agreements for beta testers.
Come to think of it our tame leica beta tester has gone a bit quiet lately! ;)

Where are you Jono?
Oh! I've been on holiday in Crete - unfortunately it clashed with photokina, so I couldn't make it (boo). I also missed this thread (great report).

Stephen - I haven't been told this, but it seems obvious to me, the firmware isn't finished, and as far as I know the Lightroom profiles are not done either. Why on earth would they release DNG files under such circumstances? They were very generous with DNG releases for the MM . . . when the image processing was complete, I'd guess they'll do the same this time, at least in time to cancel an order if you don't like it!

Dave As for NDAs, I have absolutely nothing to add to the press releases that you don't already know about, apart from the fact that there seems to be a calm confidence about the image quality (and the camera in general).

I'm anticipating a killer camera - both an excellent improvement to the M9, and the first proper full frame mirrorless camera. Exciting!

all the best
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Non-disclosure agreements only cover information not publicly released. Once Leica announced the new "M" anyone with prior knowledge and experience with the camera could disclose such information without breaking the contract.
The key words are "publicly released." Information given in confidence would not be public.
 

jonoslack

Active member
The key words are "publicly released." Information given in confidence would not be public.
Well, hopefully it's about trust and intent. Personally I've always made it clear where my loyalties lie - it's not so much thinking about legal documents.

As far as releasing DNG files from a camera which won't be released for 4 or 5 months without proper converter support; sounds like madness to me; even if they're already fantastic, then one would hope to make them even better.
 
Thanks Algrove for the photo in the light :) I'd like to have it in bigger size !
it was very nice to meet you ... and I have a few photos of you
 
M

mikegeng

Guest
algrove, thanks for the photos and report. Absolutely love your shots of the Hasselblad models...not just because they are women, but they are superb photos. Cheers.
 

algrove

Well-known member
Thanks Algrove for the photo in the light :) I'd like to have it in bigger size !
it was very nice to meet you ... and I have a few photos of you
Eric-I know you said "a" Hefe Weizen bier, but you never mentioned 4 or 5 biers! Great meeting you and also J-L.

Your picture is also posted on Leica forum in bigger form. For some reason what shows up big over there shows up smaller here.

I'll send you a few photos to your email later. I had some bandwidth problems during Oktoberfest or was it me?
 
Eric-I know you said "a" Hefe Weizen bier, but you never mentioned 4 or 5 biers! Great meeting you and also J-L.

Your picture is also posted on Leica forum in bigger form. For some reason what shows up big over there shows up smaller here.

I'll send you a few photos to your email later. I had some bandwidth problems during Oktoberfest or was it me?
and I'll send you the photos that I have of you :)

If you cross David English somewhere say Hello from me please !
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
All these discussions about CMOS vs. CCD remind me on water cooled Porsche engines vs. air cooled. As soon as the 911 was released with air cooled engine (thanks god, it was more than time to do this) the prices of the last air cooled 911's went up, but finally over the past many years the air cooled engines proved to be superior and more open for future upgrades and developments.

Same will happen with Leica M9 and Leica M. Do not hold your breath for M9 IQ being better than M IQ

just my 5c
Not quite a perfect analogy ..since I still have a water cooled and air cooled Porsche 911 convertibles by chance ...but I hope you are right.

Let me make my issues with the CMOS more complete and hopefully more complete .

. The most important change to the M10 from the M9 is the move to a CMOS sensor and to some extent the inclusion of the maestro processor. The camera was not ready at introduction . No sample files to evaluate the many components of IQ . When coming at an event as easily planned for as Photokina I find this remarkably inexcusable .

. Unless Leica s new 24MP sensor and maestro processor outperform the very best to date from say Nikon (or SOny) like maybe the D600 . The files will not be better in areas that affect the aesthetic ..like color depth or tonality Yes you will have no AA and the Leica M glass but that aspect will not be much different than using the best Leica R glass on a d800E which i have done .

. Stephan Daniels interview with Thorsten Overgaard seems to support my feeling that the M!0 CMOS sensor will meet expectations for overall image quality but will have by necessity a different aesthetic . Answering this question directly SD says if thats important to you ..you can stick with the ME . (a camera with no improvements in major components since 2006).
 

jonoslack

Active member
. The most important change to the M10 from the M9 is the move to a CMOS sensor and to some extent the inclusion of the maestro processor. The camera was not ready at introduction . No sample files to evaluate the many components of IQ . When coming at an event as easily planned for as Photokina I find this remarkably inexcusable .
I have no inside knowledge of this, but I imagine that the decision to host a whole hall at photokina made it desirable to launch some cameras at the same time. Projects don't always keep right up to schedule, and surely in this case it's better to get it right than to rush it out early just to meet photokina?

I don't see the problem in presenting a camera which isn't ready for the release of files - what IS the problem? I'm sure that files will be available long before delivery starts (just as they were with the MM), so you'll have time to evaluate them before you have to pay over the money.

It isn't just Leica getting their act together with the files, it's also Adobe getting the colour profiles right for conversion. Letting them out early sounds like suicide to me!



. Unless Leica s new 24MP sensor and maestro processor outperform the very best to date from say Nikon (or SOny) like maybe the D600 . The files will not be better in areas that affect the aesthetic ..like color depth or tonality
I'm not seriously technical about this stuff, but there are others who are, and there seems to be a good argument that in setting up a CMOS sensor for good high ISO results, you necessarily have an effect on the colour depth and tonality , even at normal ISO levels.

The evidence of this seems to me to be fairly clear. A good example is a comparison between files from the D3x and the Sony A900. The sensor is the same Sony job, tweaked by Nikon; the Nikon is much better at high ISO, but the Sony has better color depth and tonality.

The fact that Leica are setting the top ISO at 6400 does seem to imply that one shouldn't be too worried - at anyrate, I'm sure you'll be able to evaluate some files long before the camera ships.

all the best
 
V

Vivek

Guest
The fact that Leica are setting the top ISO at 6400 does seem to imply that one shouldn't be too worried -
I am also very intrigued by this top ISO limit (I think it is a sensible number). Even m4/3rds cams sport ISO256000, nowadays. Everyone knows that it is just a number and is not very useful in real life.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
I have no inside knowledge of this, but I imagine that the decision to host a whole hall at photokina made it desirable to launch some cameras at the same time. Projects don't always keep right up to schedule, and surely in this case it's better to get it right than to rush it out early just to meet photokina?

I don't see the problem in presenting a camera which isn't ready for the release of files - what IS the problem? I'm sure that files will be available long before delivery starts (just as they were with the MM), so you'll have time to evaluate them before you have to pay over the money.

It isn't just Leica getting their act together with the files, it's also Adobe getting the colour profiles right for conversion. Letting them out early sounds like suicide to me!





I'm not seriously technical about this stuff, but there are others who are, and there seems to be a good argument that in setting up a CMOS sensor for good high ISO results, you necessarily have an effect on the colour depth and tonality , even at normal ISO levels.

The evidence of this seems to me to be fairly clear. A good example is a comparison between files from the D3x and the Sony A900. The sensor is the same Sony job, tweaked by Nikon; the Nikon is much better at high ISO, but the Sony has better color depth and tonality.

The fact that Leica are setting the top ISO at 6400 does seem to imply that one shouldn't be too worried - at anyrate, I'm sure you'll be able to evaluate some files long before the camera ships.

all the best
Both points are valid perspectives and I am OK waiting (not really but that part is my being anxious ).

Leica should of course get it right and they screwed this up on the S2 and paid for it with bad reviews . But they are not above putting out the corporate party line when it suits them . I lived with deadines,conversion dates plant openings my whole working life ...they either blew it or decided that the transition to CMOS should not be the story . I know they took a lot of pride in having the M9 ready with 30 days of the introduction. They are months behind where they should be .

The decision to go CMOS was the a big one and I believe they only have so much room to tune it . THey want better ISO so that pushes the requirement for good ISo 1600 which the A900 didn t have . Or they can do what S/C/N are doing with the 25MP cameras ...and have ISO 1600 be completely usable but also keep the base Iso low .


This isn t any different than the MF guys debating the Dalsa verse Kodak chips but it shouldn t be dismissed as nay saying . WE debate the nuances of how lens character affects the aesthetic and I expect this change to be significant . I could tell from the interview that this is a concern to Leica as well.

To get where I want to be on the street I need to make this one work as I ve found no replacement for the M that produces decent 3200 . Guess we will find out next year .
 
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