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Thread: Photokina and the new M

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    Photokina and the new M

    Well, I saw the roll out last night and was impressed with the new M the most since that is my thing. It weighs in at 680 grams and feels slightly heavier than my MM that I had with me.

    At 24MP who knows what the images will look like but it seemed to me that Mr. Kaufmann stressed that it was mostly an in house endeavor and liked that he stressed it was a EUROPEAN sensor. I hope it renders like the CCD in the M9, i.e., warm. The native ISO 200 is a welcomed sight. Time will tell where the ISO breaks down before you hit the new ISO 6400 limit. I can tell you increased ISO has made me a fan after using my MM.

    The new rubber seals could be felt when mounting the new GPS hand grip. I do not like the silver buttons on the black model so you silver guys might go for this one more than the all black guys.

    The focus assist in the front via a silver button really helps by outlining in red what is in focus. I even tried an 800mm APO monovid with adapters for the new M and the focus assist was spot on. The 800 8.2, f like 7.9 (!), costs Euros2500 and the M tube like Euros 880. There is a bayonet to screw in adapter for this setup that is a prototype for now with no pricing until early 2013.

    They were demonstrating the M adapter with a 28-90 ASPH 2.8 R lens that seemed huge on the M (when compared to the new APO 50) but worked well and I can se me getting some R lenses.

    The EVF is the same one the X-2 uses, BUT the LCD is finally bigger at 3". Next to my MM I did not feel it was that much bigger now that I am used to the M9/MM 2.5" screen.

    I am NOT into video, but had to give the new HD a try. It was easy to turn on by hitting the silver M button on top to the right of the on/off switch. After using the 35 FLE on it the video images were to my eyes about the best I have ever seen and now I have reason to finally get rid of my Panasonic HD video. M lenses and video do make an impression. The sharpness achieved on a simple 2 minute video blew me away with the clarity/sharpness, etc.

    More later and some pictures too.
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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    thank you for the quick review and yes, please more info.

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    So today I had more time with the M and more impressions follow.

    The bottom plate of the hand grip has a special plug for the bottom of the M about a half inch long and allows tethering with the M via USB 3.0 if wanted. When using very long lenses this could be handy for focus confirmation on like 400mm R lenses or the 800mm monovid 82. The built in GPS is totally concealed in the nicely curved grip which to my hand feels about like my RRS L bracket I have on my M9. I especially like the wheel for attaching this grip into the M tripod thread which is truly built in and makes removal simple and attachment secure. Also the base attaches with a circular pin way up the side of the M unlike the little pin for base plates on the current M9 models.

    While the base was off I had a good look at the new battery and it is huge compared to the M9 battery and has about double the Wh of the M9 battery. This battery fits into the M in a way that reminds me of the Panasonic GF1-right next to the SD card. Since the bottom plug takes up space where/near the old M9 battery slipped in this area is no longer used. I eye balled some dimensions and they came in about 2" deep into the body, 1.25" wide and about 1" thick. With both my MM and the M without lenses, the new M felt hardly heavier and probably if it is, then the battery is to blame.

    I was impressed with what looks like a simple design for the R adapter, but has one very handy feature. It includes a tripod mount thread, but should it not be needed one can remove it by loosening two screws on the bottom of the thread base. A nice well thought out feature. More R stuff in part 2.
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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    OK Part 2--

    Continuing with the R adapter, it is coded BBWBBB for the 6 bit system. Instantly the M knows the R adapter is in place, but not yet which lens. So you go off Auto lens detection and switch to manual and then select R lenses. Then the menu gives you a list of the 20 R lenses supported by this camera with their part numbers!. Terrific! This was great and so easy.

    Then with the R 28-90 lens attached I decided to try video. You just hit the small silver M button to the right of the on/off switch and instantly the LCD shows you your picture with pretty good movement flow (I can't remember what it is called) and shows how many seconds you are recording in HD. The sharpness with this combo was truly Leica and the zoom of the R lens made me want to keep the vid going for well over 5 minutes.

    I used the 135mm on the M today to see how well it handled LV/focusing etc.
    So activating LV you press just once the small silver button on the front just above the lens release button which is larger and the same as on the M9. Once activated the LCD shows in the upper right corner a wheel and a minus sign to the left and a plus sign to the right of this digital wheel which is meant to resemble the actual wheel you use for zooming. It always starts out at 1 and when you turn the wheel to the right it then shows you are 5 times magnified. The next turn of the wheel to the right gives 10 times magnification. There are only three positions--1,5,10. Ten seems too much in many cases for me so there is plenty to spare when using 1 or 5.

    So I kept focusing and then red outlines started to show up around whatever was in focus. It will take getting used to, but the red is very fine at times and hard to find. I was focusing on some guy and could not find the red line and the Leica guy helping said look its on his hair strand. I thought Holy Sh-t, that's really finely tuned. It worked. And in this case I had not zoomed to 5 or 10 yet.

    On to Part 3.
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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    is the card accessible only by removing the base plate?

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Part 3 today.

    So the silver round "Info" button is placed where the black wheel is on our M9's. Push the center and info shows up like the M9. Press the left or right and/or up and down arrows and you scroll around the image like before. I still do not like the silver buttons all over the black model, but that's just me.

    Notes-When you press the LV button you turn on or off the LV. When you press the button just at the bottom of the EVF then it gets turned on or off a la the X-2. I will get the EVF, but still hate the lump look on the top of the M.

    I overheard many people who did not especially like the EVF lump on top of the nice clean looking body.

    The 3" screen is of course bigger, but does make that big an impression on me after using my M9 for about 2 years this November.

    I guess I should have said that when you press the silver button on the front you go to focus peaking mode as the Leica guys like to say.

    Saw Overgaard again today and he was waiting in line just like the rest of us to get our hands on the M. Nice guy. I showed him some MM shots I took over at the Hasselblad booth where they had slow motion models available for photographing ALL DAY LONG. Hats off to them. The background was black (YES!) and many models had white or yellow outfits on so it seemed like they made the set for an MM!

    Talk about MM. Even the Leica guys where impressed someone had one as many had not yet seen one in a customer's hands until today. Even the Hasselblad guys let me shoot for over an hour since they kept showing the Canon and Nikon guys an MM guy was present. I laughed like hell.

    I put my MM on the 800mm monovid and it just would not work. Put the M back on and LV saved the day. That combo is very tempting for me, but I do not know if I could hold the lens steady enough for that kind of tele work. Can't remember if I mentioned they have a tube adapter which connects to the 800 and then a T2 adapter which also accepts Nikon , Canon, etc adapters for 800 use. The T2 Leica adapter is a prototype so it will not come out before M's start delivering. Zooming is the only way to use this tele even though it has rough and fine focus knobs. It sells here for Euro2500, the tube costing like Euros 880, the T2 like USD10-20 and who know for the M adapter with cam cutout. The Leica guy showing me this setup actually was the guy testing the tube adapter with T2 ring with the Nikon 800E and it worked flawlessly he said. Now there's another excuse for getting either the 800 Leica and/or the 800 Nikon!

    That's it for now, but I will work on figuring out how to load up some OOC jpegs for you to view, but I warn you they are B&W only a la MM.

    Just an additional word about these postings. I am not a reviewer, but felt very privileged to be present for this launch and just wanted to get some initial impressions out to you guys. My hat goes off to people like Overgaard who do this month in and month out. I will never get the image out of my head of Overgaard working on his laptop the entire launch night where he only got up on a chair once to shoot a photo of all the guests/honors given out and of those present. Heck, I was so excited I couldn't sit down. Just like a kid in a candy store! And no one else was floating over the floor with an MM like I had in hand!
    Last edited by algrove; 19th September 2012 at 14:08.
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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    is the card accessible only by removing the base plate?
    If you mean the SD card, yes, just like all M9 series cameras.

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    You guys are our feet on the ground keep us posted.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Si I will try to download a few images that I hope are OK size wise, but I never know until after seeing them on this site.

    Attachment 63641
    This was some funky lighting they had on the floor before the main event started

    Attachment 63642

    This is the new R lens adapter for the M. You can also see the 6 bit coding here which I earlier mentioned yesterday.

    Attachment 63643

    This shows the M on the 80mm Monovid and shows what you see on the screen when on focus peaking at 5 times magnification.
    Last edited by algrove; 27th August 2013 at 15:45.
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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Part 2 of images--

    Attachment 63644

    At the M counter you can see the new GPS hand grip and the R adapter on an R lens where you can see the two screws at its bottom when loosened you can remove the tripod bracket.

    Attachment 63645

    Some MM fun at the Hasselblad booth with one of their models.

    Attachment 63646

    The M counter where it seemed most of the action occurred.
    Last edited by algrove; 27th August 2013 at 15:45.

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Part 3 images--

    Attachment 63647

    The M presentation by Mr. Kaufman himself.

    Attachment 63648

    More fun with the MM at the Hasselblad booth.

    Attachment 63649

    The M attached to the 800mm monovid with adapter tube and t2 adapter plus the new M adapter which was a prototype (the ring clostest to the M itself).
    Last edited by algrove; 27th August 2013 at 15:45.

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Images #4-

    Attachment 63650

    Cell phone in the dark -shot with MM at 5000 ISO.

    Attachment 63651

    A Taiwanese Leica worker strolling the Leica Galerie of many iconic photos-some we know and some we do not know.

    Attachment 63652

    The M in Leica M counter worker's hand showing silver buttons on its front side. Leather case is for the stereo microphone attachment.
    Last edited by algrove; 27th August 2013 at 15:45.

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Nice, the last image says it all: endless possibilities!

    edit: oops, I mean the one with 800mm monovid.
    David Young
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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    whatever happened to the rumored new Zeiss ZM lens?
    David Young
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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosermage View Post
    whatever happened to the rumored new Zeiss ZM lens?
    It will not be announced this year.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    THanks so much for your report, algrove!
    Ashwin Rao
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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    (Crossposted in the Ricoh forum)

    Yesterday I took a trip to the Photokina. What a crowd and huge display of gear
    Touched the Leica M with handgrip. Feels nice and rather big, but you will need it once you put on those Leica R lenses. I tryed the focus peaking which was in red and I found it quiet good and better then on NEX for straight lines, because you get beautifull in focus red outlines. As I red in Algrove's report it does not work that great for people. I did not check that.
    It works great for architecture. The EF viewfinder itself is in no way as good as the NEX-7 viewfinder, although a little better as the attached EVF on my Ricoh.
    It was not a booth anymore but a whole hall for themselves included a real good exhibition of great photographers.

    The Hasselblad booth was all over that new Lunar, which is even a bigger joke in reality. They come in countless versions. It is all about a sort of almost folkloristic craftsmenship in which they put the latests electronics. It is a big mistake, I think. The whole booth was for a great deal in the light of their grand history, besides their great prof cameras.

    In contradiction to those big players was the small booth of Voigtländer but to my surprise they showed the new (to me) 21mm 1.8 Ultron in M mount. Very well made lens. Could be a good alternative for a fast 21
    It is rather big and it has an integrated hood. In line with their non consistant hood politics. At least you don't have to pay extra for a seperate hood.
    I screwed it on my RIcoh GXR and took a few shots.
    The affiche shot is not sharp and was my hectic attempt to check the distortion.

    The last picture is from the even smaller SLRMagic booth. Very nice people and they let me try the SLR Magic Hyperprime 50/0.95. Almost to well aperture damping (no clicks) for videographers. Feels very solid but it is a lens you have to spend more time with to get good shots.
    Also tryed the new 35/1.4 on their NEX. Could be a good alternative pricewise.

    Samsung booth was huge as well. You can see they are doing well companywise, breakdancers and models - BTW lots of booths with models - all day to shoot.

    Michiel








    Last edited by Michiel Schierbeek; 21st September 2012 at 14:04.

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Am I the only one surprised that Leica has unveiled the new M and there are no sample images allowed, or for that matter available for download from Leica? The Leica website has three extremely small, low res jpegs, none of which appear to have been shot with a wide angle lens.

    Now I realize that the camera is not in production, and has no firm release date. And I also recognize that the hardware and software are still being debugged and optimized, and so they don't want a bunch of reviewers shooting images with prototype firmware. I am, however, VERY surprised that, to the best of my knowledge, Leica has made no DNG images available. It could easily be late Spring or Summer before this camera begins shipping to customers.

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    also no mole reviewers have reported in
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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Surprised, but perhaps it's understandable too! I'm actually more surprised like Jlm has said, there few people reporting in!

    I think it's to their best interest to offer sample images as late as they need if it simply isn't ready to be shown in the best light. The m9 before it had excellent IQ at lower ISO, now the monochrome M is showing it to have high standards also, and the S has always been excellent. I always felt Leica have never felt rushed, but although having slightly increased resolution than the M9, it will be as good if not better especially at higher ISO, being a CMOS sensor.
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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Steve

    Thats been my issue from the beginning . If you watch the Overgaard interview ....he goes right in on the change to CMOS . Whole series of questions that lead to the same conclusion ...its not close to being done . Thorsten knows his stuff and asked all the right follow up questions about the LR color profiles etc .

    No doubt that Leica M glass and a sensor without an AA will create superb levels of resolution . I have tested the heck out of using Leica R glass on various Nikon and Canon sensors . You can see the color signature as well as the smooth roll of the OF areas . But it was never as good as using the R glass on the DMR .

    Much of the CMOS CCD debate will depend on one s sensitivity to change in the aesthetic . The interview was great because the aesthetic is core to Thorsten s style . The answer he received was .....you may be happier with the new? M-E ..not we are confident you will just love the new files .

    This should be the subject of some discussion as the files become available . It is incredibly hard to change a "classic" .
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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    also no mole reviewers have reported in
    This is typical Leica with very strict non-disclosure agreements for beta testers.
    Come to think of it our tame leica beta tester has gone a bit quiet lately!

    Where are you Jono?
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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post
    This is typical Leica with very strict non-disclosure agreements for beta testers.
    Non-disclosure agreements only cover information not publicly released. Once Leica announced the new "M" anyone with prior knowledge and experience with the camera could disclose such information without breaking the contract.

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    It depends on the way the contract is drafted. It can certainly comprise other provisions beyond not revealing non-public information.

    @ algrove: Thank you for sharing your experiences with the new M! I am really looking forward to every piece of information on that adorable camera.

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Puhh ... today I ran and stand my feet flat on the Photokina. I am really impressed about the size and the variety of items shown there. Actually I am quite lucky not to suffer from G.A.S. these days which made it kind of a relaxed walk around omitting most of the hotspots: canon, nikon, fuji, sony ... at least the parts of their booths that where heavily loaded.

    Leica had some real huge space, which gave me the same experience as my first walk into an Apple store a couple years ago. I liked the huge letters which organized the booth into the different stands for each system. The guys really knew their product (which I wouldn't say of all other companies I visited) and "were happy" to answer questions.

    My personal highlights where the paper manufacturers and Plustek with the Opticfilm 120 which really looks promising.
    The film handlers operated even with medium format reaally smooth. So bad that I didn't have a negative with me ... The results that they have shown where great.

    Secondly it was great to viist the paper guys and have a "touch and view" on all those papers. have you ever used TECCO papers?

    Regards,
    Helge

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Steve

    Thats been my issue from the beginning . If you watch the Overgaard interview ....he goes right in on the change to CMOS . Whole series of questions that lead to the same conclusion ...its not close to being done . Thorsten knows his stuff and asked all the right follow up questions about the LR color profiles etc .

    No doubt that Leica M glass and a sensor without an AA will create superb levels of resolution . I have tested the heck out of using Leica R glass on various Nikon and Canon sensors . You can see the color signature as well as the smooth roll of the OF areas . But it was never as good as using the R glass on the DMR .

    Much of the CMOS CCD debate will depend on one s sensitivity to change in the aesthetic . The interview was great because the aesthetic is core to Thorsten s style . The answer he received was .....you may be happier with the new? M-E ..not we are confident you will just love the new files .

    This should be the subject of some discussion as the files become available . It is incredibly hard to change a "classic" .
    All these discussions about CMOS vs. CCD remind me on water cooled Porsche engines vs. air cooled. As soon as the 911 was released with air cooled engine (thanks god, it was more than time to do this) the prices of the last air cooled 911's went up, but finally over the past many years the air cooled engines proved to be superior and more open for future upgrades and developments.

    Same will happen with Leica M9 and Leica M. Do not hold your breath for M9 IQ being better than M IQ

    just my 5c

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    All these discussions about CMOS vs. CCD remind me on water cooled Porsche engines vs. air cooled. As soon as the 911 was released with air cooled engine (thanks god, it was more than time to do this) the prices of the last air cooled 911's went up, but finally over the past many years the air cooled engines proved to be superior and more open for future upgrades and developments.

    Same will happen with Leica M9 and Leica M. Do not hold your breath for M9 IQ being better than M IQ

    just my 5c
    I am sure you mean water cooled instead of air cooled, No?

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    I am sure you mean water cooled instead of air cooled, No?
    I think he did . . . . it's because it was only 5c worth!

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Quote Originally Posted by StephenPatterson View Post
    Am I the only one surprised that Leica has unveiled the new M and there are no sample images allowed, or for that matter available for download from Leica? The Leica website has three extremely small, low res jpegs, none of which appear to have been shot with a wide angle lens.
    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post
    This is typical Leica with very strict non-disclosure agreements for beta testers.
    Come to think of it our tame leica beta tester has gone a bit quiet lately!

    Where are you Jono?
    Oh! I've been on holiday in Crete - unfortunately it clashed with photokina, so I couldn't make it (boo). I also missed this thread (great report).

    Stephen - I haven't been told this, but it seems obvious to me, the firmware isn't finished, and as far as I know the Lightroom profiles are not done either. Why on earth would they release DNG files under such circumstances? They were very generous with DNG releases for the MM . . . when the image processing was complete, I'd guess they'll do the same this time, at least in time to cancel an order if you don't like it!

    Dave As for NDAs, I have absolutely nothing to add to the press releases that you don't already know about, apart from the fact that there seems to be a calm confidence about the image quality (and the camera in general).

    I'm anticipating a killer camera - both an excellent improvement to the M9, and the first proper full frame mirrorless camera. Exciting!

    all the best

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Quote Originally Posted by StephenPatterson View Post
    Non-disclosure agreements only cover information not publicly released. Once Leica announced the new "M" anyone with prior knowledge and experience with the camera could disclose such information without breaking the contract.
    The key words are "publicly released." Information given in confidence would not be public.

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    The key words are "publicly released." Information given in confidence would not be public.
    Well, hopefully it's about trust and intent. Personally I've always made it clear where my loyalties lie - it's not so much thinking about legal documents.

    As far as releasing DNG files from a camera which won't be released for 4 or 5 months without proper converter support; sounds like madness to me; even if they're already fantastic, then one would hope to make them even better.

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Thanks Algrove for the photo in the light :-) I'd like to have it in bigger size !
    it was very nice to meet you ... and I have a few photos of you
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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    algrove, thanks for the photos and report. Absolutely love your shots of the Hasselblad models...not just because they are women, but they are superb photos. Cheers.
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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Quote Originally Posted by erick.boileau View Post
    Thanks Algrove for the photo in the light :-) I'd like to have it in bigger size !
    it was very nice to meet you ... and I have a few photos of you
    Eric-I know you said "a" Hefe Weizen bier, but you never mentioned 4 or 5 biers! Great meeting you and also J-L.

    Your picture is also posted on Leica forum in bigger form. For some reason what shows up big over there shows up smaller here.

    I'll send you a few photos to your email later. I had some bandwidth problems during Oktoberfest or was it me?

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Eric-I know you said "a" Hefe Weizen bier, but you never mentioned 4 or 5 biers! Great meeting you and also J-L.

    Your picture is also posted on Leica forum in bigger form. For some reason what shows up big over there shows up smaller here.

    I'll send you a few photos to your email later. I had some bandwidth problems during Oktoberfest or was it me?
    and I'll send you the photos that I have of you :-)

    If you cross David English somewhere say Hello from me please !

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    All these discussions about CMOS vs. CCD remind me on water cooled Porsche engines vs. air cooled. As soon as the 911 was released with air cooled engine (thanks god, it was more than time to do this) the prices of the last air cooled 911's went up, but finally over the past many years the air cooled engines proved to be superior and more open for future upgrades and developments.

    Same will happen with Leica M9 and Leica M. Do not hold your breath for M9 IQ being better than M IQ

    just my 5c
    Not quite a perfect analogy ..since I still have a water cooled and air cooled Porsche 911 convertibles by chance ...but I hope you are right.

    Let me make my issues with the CMOS more complete and hopefully more complete .

    . The most important change to the M10 from the M9 is the move to a CMOS sensor and to some extent the inclusion of the maestro processor. The camera was not ready at introduction . No sample files to evaluate the many components of IQ . When coming at an event as easily planned for as Photokina I find this remarkably inexcusable .

    . Unless Leica s new 24MP sensor and maestro processor outperform the very best to date from say Nikon (or SOny) like maybe the D600 . The files will not be better in areas that affect the aesthetic ..like color depth or tonality Yes you will have no AA and the Leica M glass but that aspect will not be much different than using the best Leica R glass on a d800E which i have done .

    . Stephan Daniels interview with Thorsten Overgaard seems to support my feeling that the M!0 CMOS sensor will meet expectations for overall image quality but will have by necessity a different aesthetic . Answering this question directly SD says if thats important to you ..you can stick with the ME . (a camera with no improvements in major components since 2006).

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post

    . The most important change to the M10 from the M9 is the move to a CMOS sensor and to some extent the inclusion of the maestro processor. The camera was not ready at introduction . No sample files to evaluate the many components of IQ . When coming at an event as easily planned for as Photokina I find this remarkably inexcusable .
    I have no inside knowledge of this, but I imagine that the decision to host a whole hall at photokina made it desirable to launch some cameras at the same time. Projects don't always keep right up to schedule, and surely in this case it's better to get it right than to rush it out early just to meet photokina?

    I don't see the problem in presenting a camera which isn't ready for the release of files - what IS the problem? I'm sure that files will be available long before delivery starts (just as they were with the MM), so you'll have time to evaluate them before you have to pay over the money.

    It isn't just Leica getting their act together with the files, it's also Adobe getting the colour profiles right for conversion. Letting them out early sounds like suicide to me!



    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    . Unless Leica s new 24MP sensor and maestro processor outperform the very best to date from say Nikon (or SOny) like maybe the D600 . The files will not be better in areas that affect the aesthetic ..like color depth or tonality
    I'm not seriously technical about this stuff, but there are others who are, and there seems to be a good argument that in setting up a CMOS sensor for good high ISO results, you necessarily have an effect on the colour depth and tonality , even at normal ISO levels.

    The evidence of this seems to me to be fairly clear. A good example is a comparison between files from the D3x and the Sony A900. The sensor is the same Sony job, tweaked by Nikon; the Nikon is much better at high ISO, but the Sony has better color depth and tonality.

    The fact that Leica are setting the top ISO at 6400 does seem to imply that one shouldn't be too worried - at anyrate, I'm sure you'll be able to evaluate some files long before the camera ships.

    all the best

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post

    The fact that Leica are setting the top ISO at 6400 does seem to imply that one shouldn't be too worried -
    I am also very intrigued by this top ISO limit (I think it is a sensible number). Even m4/3rds cams sport ISO256000, nowadays. Everyone knows that it is just a number and is not very useful in real life.
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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I have no inside knowledge of this, but I imagine that the decision to host a whole hall at photokina made it desirable to launch some cameras at the same time. Projects don't always keep right up to schedule, and surely in this case it's better to get it right than to rush it out early just to meet photokina?

    I don't see the problem in presenting a camera which isn't ready for the release of files - what IS the problem? I'm sure that files will be available long before delivery starts (just as they were with the MM), so you'll have time to evaluate them before you have to pay over the money.

    It isn't just Leica getting their act together with the files, it's also Adobe getting the colour profiles right for conversion. Letting them out early sounds like suicide to me!





    I'm not seriously technical about this stuff, but there are others who are, and there seems to be a good argument that in setting up a CMOS sensor for good high ISO results, you necessarily have an effect on the colour depth and tonality , even at normal ISO levels.

    The evidence of this seems to me to be fairly clear. A good example is a comparison between files from the D3x and the Sony A900. The sensor is the same Sony job, tweaked by Nikon; the Nikon is much better at high ISO, but the Sony has better color depth and tonality.

    The fact that Leica are setting the top ISO at 6400 does seem to imply that one shouldn't be too worried - at anyrate, I'm sure you'll be able to evaluate some files long before the camera ships.

    all the best
    Both points are valid perspectives and I am OK waiting (not really but that part is my being anxious ).

    Leica should of course get it right and they screwed this up on the S2 and paid for it with bad reviews . But they are not above putting out the corporate party line when it suits them . I lived with deadines,conversion dates plant openings my whole working life ...they either blew it or decided that the transition to CMOS should not be the story . I know they took a lot of pride in having the M9 ready with 30 days of the introduction. They are months behind where they should be .

    The decision to go CMOS was the a big one and I believe they only have so much room to tune it . THey want better ISO so that pushes the requirement for good ISo 1600 which the A900 didn t have . Or they can do what S/C/N are doing with the 25MP cameras ...and have ISO 1600 be completely usable but also keep the base Iso low .


    This isn t any different than the MF guys debating the Dalsa verse Kodak chips but it shouldn t be dismissed as nay saying . WE debate the nuances of how lens character affects the aesthetic and I expect this change to be significant . I could tell from the interview that this is a concern to Leica as well.

    To get where I want to be on the street I need to make this one work as I ve found no replacement for the M that produces decent 3200 . Guess we will find out next year .

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    could the x1/x2 be an indicator what to expect from a cmos sensor in a Leica M?

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    This is just a hypothetical....but lets say Leica in selecting a CMOS for the new M has to make a decision of balancing high ISO performance vs. color depth, tonality etc. . They could push the usable ISO high and sacrifice color (or) keep it reasonably low (but an improvement over that seen in the M9) and concentrate on the aesthetics of the image or thirdly, maybe something in-between. That often does seem the dilemma of CMOS based sensors. If this is the case, Leica has to decide on a strategy and if we take SD interview verbatim, Leica may have felt that if they could at least come close to matching the color and the rest of the aesthetics of the M9 image in the new M while at the same time meeting the requirements of considerably superior high ISO performance, they may have met their design goals. I'm not implying that acheiving high ISO performance vs. accurate and pleasing color etc. is inversly proportional and linear, but assuming it's somewhat of a tradeoff, Leica may have found themselves in the dilemma of knowing that the majority of their base core of users (and even attracting new ones) expect better high ISO performance this time around from this new camera...and so they will strive to achieve this without too much if any sacrifice to image aesthetics.

    As in the case of most things, there are always going to be some tradeoffs and no way to meet everyones criteria. Same goes for keeping a pure "M" vs. one that has the potential for higher tech advancement at the sacrifice of "add ons" that potentially bloat the physical nature of the body.

    I think all one can do is be patient and wait for not only full rez DNG's to be released from the camera but additionally, be able to physically handle the camera itself, examining its new features along with the EVF and other optional accessories. Then and only then will we all know what if any compromises have been made vs. the current M9. Leica may have hit a home run with just image quality that will please almost everyone or maybe conversely excite those who placed a premium on better high ISO performance or yet again maybe please a third group who are surprised that at base ISO up to say 1600, image quaity is beyond what they expected and even surpasses the M9 and at the same time eked out about 1-1.5 stops of low light performance.

    Everyone is going to have their own set of different priorities for the new M and that in itself is going to have some pacing the halls until images and camera are released. OK, now lets get out there and find who has a prototype in their hands now...LOL!

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 25th September 2012 at 07:27.
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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Bottom line there are a lot of IF's involved here. Given Leicas track record on releases I would be patient and see what they actually do and how long it takes to be acceptable in your mind. I would never trust a unproven sensor or first blush until it passes a lot of my own requirements. I like Leica but I have been burned too. I can forgive but I certainly don't forget my 2 M8s spending a minimum of 3 months in the home land in the repair shop. Not one but both of mine, luckily Leica gave me loaners.


    I know a lot of folks very excited about this cam and it does look very promising. Just be careful you don't put your wallet in front of your needs and wants. Been down this road countless times and I have have been bitten too.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    could the x1/x2 be an indicator what to expect from a cmos sensor in a Leica M?
    Not really. Those are Sony sensors and frankly do better in their NEX' being incredibly versatile and cheap.

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Dave and Guy

    Dave ....I am not an expert but more a student of the game ..but your description is consistent with my understanding and with the results of the major DSLR mfg . I think Leica makes good choices (consistent with my view of "good color" not necessarily perfect for everyone ) . But they are also not sensor mfg and they have a complex requirement with the micro lenses . This is a lot more difficult that jamming Sony s latest APS-C into a new . I appreciate every bit of this . Personally I would be doing back flips if they had chosen the Dalsa 24MP CCD chip and added the Maestro processor...but I understand that the broader appeal of EVF,LV,video .

    Guy is correct Leica has a limited track record of getting the new digital cameras right at introduction . The S2 had a major disconnect with Adobe and LR ..I believe because they had a falling out with Phase just months before introduction and changed horses . The initial files were impossible (can you remember the test files we processed) . But a firmware change and new LR camera profiles ....made the file easy and David Farkes s presets made them one button great . I was much more concerned about the S2 update where the strong aesthetic s a key attribute ... I love the solution Leica came up with and hope they keep up the "model year improvements " and time the big changes on a longer cycle .

    Should be fun to dig into the new files and see whats possible .

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Not really. Those are Sony sensors and frankly do better in their NEX' being incredibly versatile and cheap.
    But the color profile is decided upon by the camera mfg and you have the sony sensor with a leica lens. The files I have seen have been pretty good for the X1. When the M8 came out I know they had quite a debate over generating a neutral low contrast file verse a stronger color version. They went with neutral.

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Dave and Guy

    Dave ....I am not an expert but more a student of the game ..but your description is consistent with my understanding and with the results of the major DSLR mfg . I think Leica makes good choices (consistent with my view of "good color" not necessarily perfect for everyone ) . But they are also not sensor mfg and they have a complex requirement with the micro lenses . This is a lot more difficult that jamming Sony s latest APS-C into a new . I appreciate every bit of this . Personally I would be doing back flips if they had chosen the Dalsa 24MP CCD chip and added the Maestro processor...but I understand that the broader appeal of EVF,LV,video .

    Guy is correct Leica has a limited track record of getting the new digital cameras right at introduction . The S2 had a major disconnect with Adobe and LR ..I believe because they had a falling out with Phase just months before introduction and changed horses . The initial files were impossible (can you remember the test files we processed) . But a firmware change and new LR camera profiles ....made the file easy and David Farkes s presets made them one button great . I was much more concerned about the S2 update where the strong aesthetic s a key attribute ... I love the solution Leica came up with and hope they keep up the "model year improvements " and time the big changes on a longer cycle .

    Should be fun to dig into the new files and see whats possible .
    I think the real message here with Leica and i know a lot of folks will agree and the key word is Patience when it comes to Leica. Buying out of the gate is a risk with them, every cam has had a growing period to get all things down perfect. Now a lot of folks have the patience to wait things out and I give them a lot of credit. I did with the M8 and I got lucky and had loaners to get me through it all. Will never see that issue again as they have gotten better and better with each new cam but they do take time be it themselves or Adobe to get things correct and looking good. Im not saying this will be bad on release far from it but I am saying be patient. Leica seems sometimes to go at a rate slower than some are willing to accept too. Be it now its a new unproven never been on the market sensor my Red flag goes up. I have been shooting digital since the very very beginning of it and a lot has changed but also a lot of growing pains as well. I know we have some very serious Leica fans here and i love you folks but from me just dont fall into any marketing trap or false hopes . This sensor needs to be proven is all I am saying.

    And none of this is to offend anyone, I just been around the block a few times and thought its worth bringing that up.
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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    I do not know about ISO 6400, but I did take some ISO1600 shots with the Monovid 800 and I did not see grain in the images. I know that is not a technical statement, but that's what I remember. I do know with my M9 at 1600 I would see some artifacts.

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I think the real message here with Leica and i know a lot of folks will agree and the key word is Patience when it comes to Leica. Buying out of the gate is a risk with them, every cam has had a growing period to get all things down perfect. Now a lot of folks have the patience to wait things out and I give them a lot of credit. I did with the M8 and I got lucky and had loaners to get me through it all. Will never see that issue again as they have gotten better and better with each new cam but they do take time be it themselves or Adobe to get things correct and looking good. Im not saying this will be bad on release far from it but I am saying be patient. Leica seems sometimes to go at a rate slower than some are willing to accept too. Be it now its a new unproven never been on the market sensor my Red flag goes up. I have been shooting digital since the very very beginning of it and a lot has changed but also a lot of growing pains as well. I know we have some very serious Leica fans here and i love you folks but from me just dont fall into any marketing trap or false hopes . This sensor needs to be proven is all I am saying.

    And none of this is to offend anyone, I just been around the block a few times and thought its worth bringing that up.
    I fully agree on this and I should mention once more that I was pretty much burned with the M8 and lot of issues this camera had. Actually was so bad that I totally skipped the M9 and sold the M8.

    But finally I trust that they learned a lot in the last 3 years and the physics of the new sensor seem to be a pretty great advancement and I do not doubt (I actually never doubted) that CMOS if done right is at least as good if not better than CCD. Maybe I am in the minority with that opinion here, but I come from the technology side and I know what can be done with both technologies. And Leica has a pretty great design on their CMOS sensor.

    SO I fully trust that the M will be the cam for great RF like shooting finally. I have gone through so many mirrorless approaches with m43 and others and I was finally not overwhelmed and still am not - even with the pretty great EM-5 from Olympus.

    Also you can call this kind of getting me tired trying some other solutions, which finally turn out not to deliver all that was promised. But Leica finally always had a perfect (almost perfect) IQ. This is why I decided to stop my unsuccessful search of a better mirrorless / RF system and get lined up for the new M. It rings all the bells WRT functionality and features for me and finally I am sure that Leica will be able to deliver, even if this is not the first version coming out.

    Simply interesting what we can expect here from Leica, I stay more than tuned
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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Dave, Roger, Guy, Peter.
    Lots of good points here.
    One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the difference in Leica's position these days, not only do they have much more digital experience and resources - they do, now, have time to get things right. When the M9 was released this wasn't really the case. I would think that the M8, M9 and S2 needed to be out of the door as fast as possible. Priorities change, and I imagine that the priority with the M is to get it as ready as possible before it ships.

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    Re: Photokina and the new M

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Dave, Roger, Guy, Peter.
    Lots of good points here.
    One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the difference in Leica's position these days, not only do they have much more digital experience and resources - they do, now, have time to get things right. When the M9 was released this wasn't really the case. I would think that the M8, M9 and S2 needed to be out of the door as fast as possible. Priorities change, and I imagine that the priority with the M is to get it as ready as possible before it ships.
    Jono et al

    i agree that the new S is what the original S2 should have been. This is why the specs seem so evolutionary.

    However I have had two great years shooting the S2 with its wonderful lenses. For me this camera system is all about landscapes and (not for me) fashion. While having higher ISO is nice, it is not a feature I find necessary for my work. So I plan to wait for a more revolutionary path for the S system before I buy a new body.

    On the other hand, the MM and the new M, having superb high ISO capabilities, are perfect for my street work.

    So all in all, I am happy with the path Leica has taken. Only time will tell how successful this strategy will be

    Woody
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