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Is using an M for paid work viable?
- Thread starter dude163
- Start date
Jorgen Udvang
Subscriber Member
Shutterstock.com is the best at the moment, by quite a big margin, but nobody knows what the world will look like tomorrow. Just be aware that there aren't much more than pennies in it until you pass 500 or 1,000 good quality images.
Be aware also that microstock isn't for everyone. You have to accept that what you thought was a great, artistic image won't even be accepted, while something boring run-of-the mill might sell by the hundreds or more.
Last edited:
doug
Well-known member
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
For the limited amount of commercial style of work you plan on doing sure you can stay within the limitations of the system. For me I tried for about a year with 2 M8 and a lot of glass but I shoot a very diverse set of commercial work and found the system had some limitations that made it effectively too much of a problem. But I work on many things that require speed both in functionality and abilities. Also end of day as much as I like a rangefinder it is hard to live without a OVF of a DLSR style. But I have always said this when I retire I want the latest M system. From a business POV for me, it just simply comes up short. Again I do commercial photography with a lot of variety so its more difficult. If you specialize more than its easier to work within certain systems. Obviously like sports that requires a different set of issues to deal with than maybe another system maybe best. Myself I just do too much diverse work that makes cameras buys much harder to deal with. But remember also you can rent systems when needed which I will do on occasion.
I will say though your are better off with a M9 than a M8 as colors even with the IR filter can still be off and problematic. Besides that nice improvements on the M9 that are better overall going for commercial work. I do like the M9 much better and shot a couple jobs with one with nice results and found it much easier to work with. It's been awhile so can't remember all the reasons but I do remember it was a easier task with the M9
Also you HAVE to take into account reliability ,backups and service, support as just as important as a favorite lens. Now your on the hook to come home with the goods and you cannot fail PERIOD. Doing commercial work and trust me on this one is both rewarding and fun BUT its also work. Don't lose sight of that. Be a responsible Pro. I wish the weekend warrior wedding shooters would take note of this comment. Honestly I get sick to my stomach reading what some of them are doing in the field.
I will say though your are better off with a M9 than a M8 as colors even with the IR filter can still be off and problematic. Besides that nice improvements on the M9 that are better overall going for commercial work. I do like the M9 much better and shot a couple jobs with one with nice results and found it much easier to work with. It's been awhile so can't remember all the reasons but I do remember it was a easier task with the M9
Also you HAVE to take into account reliability ,backups and service, support as just as important as a favorite lens. Now your on the hook to come home with the goods and you cannot fail PERIOD. Doing commercial work and trust me on this one is both rewarding and fun BUT its also work. Don't lose sight of that. Be a responsible Pro. I wish the weekend warrior wedding shooters would take note of this comment. Honestly I get sick to my stomach reading what some of them are doing in the field.
dude163
Active member
I agree Guy, thanks for the input.
An acquaintance of mine bought a Canon Rebel XS a few years ago and was advertising weddings for 250 $ Kit lens and all. I asked her if she had a backup camera body her reply was
" why, its brand new and under warranty"
Then I mentioned " well I was more thinking if the camera broke and they CANNOT reschedule their wedding day when you get the warranty replacement"
" But its new , its not going to break"
GAH! even as a semi weekend warrior I still realise that not everyone with a DSLR can be a pro, despite the Kijiji ads that say otherwise
Robert. Don't whatever you do outlay money now, use the gear you have and see the feedback from your customers and work some time before making the leap to more gear.
I think the equipment you have is just good enough unless you are going to make gigantic prints (even then upscaling can be done with the right software...).
I wish you lots of success in this venture
I think the equipment you have is just good enough unless you are going to make gigantic prints (even then upscaling can be done with the right software...).
I wish you lots of success in this venture
DDudenbostel
Active member
There's a serious lesson the weekend warriors need to know. As a photographer working for pay you are responsible to deliver per the requirements of your customer. If you botch the job or fall short you can wind up in court. I personally know a very competent a very experienced pro who botched a wedding. He was taken to court and forced to pay to fly family across the country to restate the wedding. It almost destroyed him financially. You accept money for work and you assume the liability if you fail.I agree Guy, thanks for the input.
An acquaintance of mine bought a Canon Rebel XS a few years ago and was advertising weddings for 250 $ Kit lens and all. I asked her if she had a backup camera body her reply was
" why, its brand new and under warranty"
Then I mentioned " well I was more thinking if the camera broke and they CANNOT reschedule their wedding day when you get the warranty replacement"
" But its new , its not going to break"
GAH! even as a semi weekend warrior I still realise that not everyone with a DSLR can be a pro, despite the Kijiji ads that say otherwise
Guys correct, we shoot very similar kinds of assignments and it may look glamorous but it's still work. I enjoy my work most days but I understand the responsibility I have as a professional.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
I do want to add that I am not discouraging anyone not to take the step into the commercial world but I feel also its my duty as a experienced Pro to help and guide folks to basically uphold the law of being a Pro. It's not a law but a responsibility in your craft. This is serious business and YES you are under a work for hire contract and legally responsible to your client. So YES you can get sued and I know a lot of stories that this has happened and a huge percentage is weddings. Back in my very early days a friend got sued so bad money wise they redid the whole wedding overseas and he was sued for most of the wedding. He went out of business. Think about joining photo association or at least get familiar with contracts and typical business stuff. End of day you are running a business. Bottom line you sold out for pay. I accepted that fact very early on even though I am a artist, I am also a business man. Usually we are not the greatest business folks but great shooters so look for help on things we may lack.
I am a self confessed "Leica Nut", as Vivek calls it. I've used a M camera for all of my adult life, so really know what rangefinders can and cannot do. As a result, I am VERY fast with a M camera, but also know the limitations.
I currently use a M9 and MM for some paying work. Before that I used a pair of M8s. Before that a pair of M7s, etc. etc. Note that I said "Some paying work" and "Pair of Ms". More about that later.
IMO, if you take up work for pay, the driver is the work, not the gear. The work you want to do for someone else should determine what gear will be employed, not the other way around.
While we all have a love for certain favorite tools, you have to rationally detach yourself from that and evaluate real world needs in order to increase your chances for success ... not necessarily financial success ... success in delivering what is expected and agreed upon between you and anyone who hires you ... no matter how much money is involved. A $100 portrait client, or $500 wedding client, or small businessman with a tiny budget, can be just as demanding as those willing to pay 10 times that much ... often even more so. Trust me on this.
Shooting candids and portraits with a "funky German camera" as a bystander is one thing, shooting them as a contracted photographer is another. The whole dynamic changes. As a bystander, you can fail and no one knows it. As a pro, failure or falling short of expectations, is not an option ... fail and everyone knows it.
Many enthusiasts are taking up work for pay these days. Work for pay provides purpose and some income. Typically they cycle through friends, acquaintances, and relatives like a freshman insurance salesperson, then the rubber meets the road. Now you are dealing with people who do not know you. It doesn't matter what area of photography you go after ... you will now be dealing with "word-of-mouth" endorsements or detractors. In the age of the internet, that happens in a blink of an eye.
Base Requirements:
Two of everything. I do not know one single professional photographer that leaves for any job with one camera. Often they have three. I once hired a photographer that brought three cameras to a shoot, and all three failed. I never considered him for another job again ... be it poor maintenance of his gear, or monumental bad luck, it didn't matter.
A written contractual agreement for EVERY paying job regardless of size. While it is important to state what will be delivered, when and where, it is equally important to cover what happens if it all goes south on you. This allows hashing out everything with a client BEFORE, not AFTER a shoot.
Business Insurance: Many weekend warriors work without a net even though our society is rife with litigious people. Smiles one minute, letters from lawyers and threats the next. Photography is a highly subjective area of work, and the web is crammed with cries for help from weekend warriors being dissed or sued ... the public can be fickle, they have stars in their eyes when hiring you based on your very best work, and never look at the whole body of work on average thinking this is what they will really get. Plus some will threaten to diss you just to get free stuff, or a price reduction.
Also, be aware that home-owners coverage of gear, even with a line listed rider, evaporates the minute you take a dollar for shooting. Photographer associations are a good source for the proper type of insurance.
Incorporate. (related to the above insurance). Forming a LLC is fairly simple (Legal Zoom does them), and may involve paying an annual registration fee to your state government ... mine is $25. This is one way to separate your personal possessions from your company's assets should something go terribly wrong ... something as simple as portrait session where there is an accident can trigger the end of everything you and your family own.
Gear Choices: While there are those who do use a M camera for paying work, even a few I know who do commercial level work with Ms, none of them only have one. Using a M involves over-coming obstacles that do not exist with other forms of cameras. These obstacles often clash with client expectations. Clients don't know these limitations, and can suddenly ask for more than you and/or the camera is capable of. Although I could be considered an expert with a M, I always have a modern DSLR with me. Gun to head, and forced to choose, I would select the DSLR first for paying work ... I owe it to my clients to deliver without limitations due to my gear.
Still want to go pro? :ROTFL:
-Marc
I currently use a M9 and MM for some paying work. Before that I used a pair of M8s. Before that a pair of M7s, etc. etc. Note that I said "Some paying work" and "Pair of Ms". More about that later.
IMO, if you take up work for pay, the driver is the work, not the gear. The work you want to do for someone else should determine what gear will be employed, not the other way around.
While we all have a love for certain favorite tools, you have to rationally detach yourself from that and evaluate real world needs in order to increase your chances for success ... not necessarily financial success ... success in delivering what is expected and agreed upon between you and anyone who hires you ... no matter how much money is involved. A $100 portrait client, or $500 wedding client, or small businessman with a tiny budget, can be just as demanding as those willing to pay 10 times that much ... often even more so. Trust me on this.
Shooting candids and portraits with a "funky German camera" as a bystander is one thing, shooting them as a contracted photographer is another. The whole dynamic changes. As a bystander, you can fail and no one knows it. As a pro, failure or falling short of expectations, is not an option ... fail and everyone knows it.
Many enthusiasts are taking up work for pay these days. Work for pay provides purpose and some income. Typically they cycle through friends, acquaintances, and relatives like a freshman insurance salesperson, then the rubber meets the road. Now you are dealing with people who do not know you. It doesn't matter what area of photography you go after ... you will now be dealing with "word-of-mouth" endorsements or detractors. In the age of the internet, that happens in a blink of an eye.
Base Requirements:
Two of everything. I do not know one single professional photographer that leaves for any job with one camera. Often they have three. I once hired a photographer that brought three cameras to a shoot, and all three failed. I never considered him for another job again ... be it poor maintenance of his gear, or monumental bad luck, it didn't matter.
A written contractual agreement for EVERY paying job regardless of size. While it is important to state what will be delivered, when and where, it is equally important to cover what happens if it all goes south on you. This allows hashing out everything with a client BEFORE, not AFTER a shoot.
Business Insurance: Many weekend warriors work without a net even though our society is rife with litigious people. Smiles one minute, letters from lawyers and threats the next. Photography is a highly subjective area of work, and the web is crammed with cries for help from weekend warriors being dissed or sued ... the public can be fickle, they have stars in their eyes when hiring you based on your very best work, and never look at the whole body of work on average thinking this is what they will really get. Plus some will threaten to diss you just to get free stuff, or a price reduction.
Also, be aware that home-owners coverage of gear, even with a line listed rider, evaporates the minute you take a dollar for shooting. Photographer associations are a good source for the proper type of insurance.
Incorporate. (related to the above insurance). Forming a LLC is fairly simple (Legal Zoom does them), and may involve paying an annual registration fee to your state government ... mine is $25. This is one way to separate your personal possessions from your company's assets should something go terribly wrong ... something as simple as portrait session where there is an accident can trigger the end of everything you and your family own.
Gear Choices: While there are those who do use a M camera for paying work, even a few I know who do commercial level work with Ms, none of them only have one. Using a M involves over-coming obstacles that do not exist with other forms of cameras. These obstacles often clash with client expectations. Clients don't know these limitations, and can suddenly ask for more than you and/or the camera is capable of. Although I could be considered an expert with a M, I always have a modern DSLR with me. Gun to head, and forced to choose, I would select the DSLR first for paying work ... I owe it to my clients to deliver without limitations due to my gear.
Still want to go pro? :ROTFL:
-Marc
+1 to everything Marc wrote above. We'd all like to use the gear for a paying job that above all else excites us and sparks a sort of "je ne sais quoi" but the reality is when it comes to getting the job done, done well and done right, especially when there are no second chances, it's always best to rely on the tried and true and what is likely to yield the best success first time around. As Marc expressed, it's often the DSLR thats at the front lines.
Thats not to say when the right circumstances arrive and there is both time and opportunity to incorporate other cameras and equipment in a particular shoot that will contribute in some way to enhance what you offer to your paying client, that you shouldn't avail yourself to this. If anything it can often strengthen your final product, but be careful to not loose sight what objectives first and foremost must be reached. The rest then is icing on the cake.
Dave (D&A)
Thats not to say when the right circumstances arrive and there is both time and opportunity to incorporate other cameras and equipment in a particular shoot that will contribute in some way to enhance what you offer to your paying client, that you shouldn't avail yourself to this. If anything it can often strengthen your final product, but be careful to not loose sight what objectives first and foremost must be reached. The rest then is icing on the cake.
Dave (D&A)
dude163
Active member
I think you guys misunderstood what my intent was here , I appreciate the advice though!
All I wanted to know was if I take nature shots or the odd portrait , is a M camera a viable option for that I know the trials and tribulations of running a business and the pressures of doing weddings and having backup gear .
Ill be taking shots of friends and family like I always have done and get renumeration for printing them off . I may branch out into portraiture , if I do Il take all of the info to heart and see what happens.
Im getting paid quite well to be an amateur photographer , so there isnt any pressure on me to make any $$$
All I wanted to know was if I take nature shots or the odd portrait , is a M camera a viable option for that
I know the trials and tribulations of running a business and the pressures of doing weddings and having backup gear .Ill be taking shots of friends and family like I always have done and get renumeration for printing them off . I may branch out into portraiture , if I do Il take all of the info to heart and see what happens.
Im getting paid quite well to be an amateur photographer , so there isnt any pressure on me to make any $$$
And that is why if you like shooting with (rangefinder) Leica, stick with it...
You will be just fine...
It is all about the style of shooting you do. I got rid of majority of my DSLR system for that reason. Kept only 5D. MKII for video capabilities and the fact that I have a couple of Zeiss Contax glass that I use for architecture and interiors... All high speed primes and huge zooms are gone... I am expending my M kit, and planning to get new M next summer (after all beta testers finish...).
I came to conclusion that what I do, at the moment can be done with Leica M. And sure, it is much more fun (for me) to shoot with M than any DSLR...
You will be just fine...
It is all about the style of shooting you do. I got rid of majority of my DSLR system for that reason. Kept only 5D. MKII for video capabilities and the fact that I have a couple of Zeiss Contax glass that I use for architecture and interiors... All high speed primes and huge zooms are gone... I am expending my M kit, and planning to get new M next summer (after all beta testers finish...).
I came to conclusion that what I do, at the moment can be done with Leica M. And sure, it is much more fun (for me) to shoot with M than any DSLR...
V
Vivek
Guest
All I wanted to know was if I take nature shots or the odd portrait , is a M camera a viable option for that
Robert: How long have you been using your M8? By now you should know the answer to that.
The suggestions/cautions coming from the heavyweights, in particular, is well intended and whether it addresses your needs per se or not, makes the thread very rich.
ashwinrao1
Active member
Haven't read much of the thread....but quick answer is yes... In my experience, the M system has been great for weddings...
Here are a few examples from a happy couple that I photographed about 1.5 years ago...
Here are a few examples from a happy couple that I photographed about 1.5 years ago...
ashwinrao1
Active member
35 FLE and Noct 0.95
Jason Muelver
Member
Ha! Ash, that's just not fair.
Marc hit the most important aspect of your question.
It doesn't matter if you're using a Holga or an M with a Noctilux. If you are being paid to take a picture (which is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT than selling an image) get insurance and whatever Canada's version of an LLC is.
Reason being, say you're photographing a ballerina for contract. You ask her to step to her left and she turns an ankle. Seems innocuous enough. Then you hear from her attorney and she's sueing you for damages. You have no insurance or a corporate protection shell.
You could quickly find your disability pay gone, along with your home.
Purely hypothetical, but not impossible.
Notice, I said noting about an M. I use an M along side my Nikon gear for commercial, portrait and wedding work.
Marc hit the most important aspect of your question.
It doesn't matter if you're using a Holga or an M with a Noctilux. If you are being paid to take a picture (which is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT than selling an image) get insurance and whatever Canada's version of an LLC is.
Reason being, say you're photographing a ballerina for contract. You ask her to step to her left and she turns an ankle. Seems innocuous enough. Then you hear from her attorney and she's sueing you for damages. You have no insurance or a corporate protection shell.
You could quickly find your disability pay gone, along with your home.
Purely hypothetical, but not impossible.
Notice, I said noting about an M. I use an M along side my Nikon gear for commercial, portrait and wedding work.