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Thread: M 240 AA filter or not

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    Member erick.boileau's Avatar
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    M 240 AA filter or not

    Is there any confirmation somewhere from Leica that the new M will not have a AA filter ?

    for the moment it is unclear

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    Re: M 240 AA filter or not

    Hi Erick
    No AA filter. It's quite certain.
    All the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Member erick.boileau's Avatar
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    Re: M 240 AA filter or not

    I know that it is quite certain , but it is written nowhere

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    Re: M 240 AA filter or not

    Yes, without any doubt, there will be an AA filter.

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    Member erick.boileau's Avatar
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    Re: M 240 AA filter or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Yes, without any doubt, there will be an AA filter.
    I am not sure to understand without any doubt
    and normally there will not be a A filter, but it is not sure

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    Re: M 240 AA filter or not

    There always is, has been.

    The filter used in cutting IR in the M8 (however insufficiently), for example, is also an AA filter.

    It is not a blur filter.

    If the M9 has no blur filter and if you still do not see moire in most cases then anti aliasing applied somewhere. Whether it is hardware or software is a different matter.

    The whole point of Leica using a very thin filter (minimal glass) on the M8 sensor was to the minimize the aberrations (spherical and others) induced by flat glass. When it is in the front of a lens (any filter) this is negligible but when it is close to the imaging plane (sensor) the effects are substantial.

    The question is, how thick a filter Leica will use in the new M and what sort of an effect we will see.

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    Re: M 240 AA filter or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    If the M9 has no blur filter and if you still do not see moire in most cases then anti aliasing applied somewhere.
    on the M9 time to time I get moiré

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    Re: M 240 AA filter or not

    Yes, it is a compromise in image clarity. Fuji's new sensor further minimizes that.

    If you look at Ricoh' A12 M module and see what can be achieved, the new M (with the CMOS sensor) would be excellent. If that is your concern (new sensor), I would not be worried.

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    Re: M 240 AA filter or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    If that is your concern (new sensor), I would not be worried.
    yes ! it is already ordered

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    Re: M 240 AA filter or not

    I hear a murmur that Leica have postponed (by an year) the production of the AA 50 due to QC problems.

    Can anyone confirm that?

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    Re: M 240 AA filter or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I hear a murmur that Leica have postponed (by an year) the production of the AA 50 due to QC problems.
    I can wait , and I am not sure to change my 50 Summilux for the Summicron
    Last edited by erick.boileau; 27th December 2012 at 03:35.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

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    Re: M 240 AA filter or not

    Hi There
    Without going in to a discussion about the definition of an AA filter. The situation with the M(240) is the same as that of the M9, and, as such, it's possible that there will be moire and coloured specular highlights just like you do on the M9, together with the same kind of detail you get with the M9.

    As for the 50 'cron APO Asph. I don't think it'll be a year, but anyway, postponed by a year might as well be from the original date (May 2011). I've heard many stories, and several different ones.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: M 240 AA filter or not

    maybe here : CMOSIS infos

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    Re: M 240 AA filter or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    There always is, has been.

    The filter used in cutting IR in the M8 (however insufficiently), for example, is also an AA filter.

    It is not a blur filter.

    If the M9 has no blur filter and if you still do not see moire in most cases then anti aliasing applied somewhere. Whether it is hardware or software is a different matter.

    The whole point of Leica using a very thin filter (minimal glass) on the M8 sensor was to the minimize the aberrations (spherical and others) induced by flat glass. When it is in the front of a lens (any filter) this is negligible but when it is close to the imaging plane (sensor) the effects are substantial.

    The question is, how thick a filter Leica will use in the new M and what sort of an effect we will see.
    An AA filter is essentially a beam splitter, and it is the same thing as what is usually referred to as a blur filter. The M9 doesn't have an AA filter, especially not attached to its inexpensive IR filter (Kyocera BS7,) and the camera exhibits moire rather frequently. Assuming the M 240 also doesn't have an AA filter, it should exhibit less moire than the M9, because of the smaller pixels.
    Last edited by douglasf13; 27th December 2012 at 08:38.

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    Re: M 240 AA filter or not

    I am no expert on this. But I found it interesting on the Nikon site when discussing the differences between the D800e and the D800, they specifically show someone in fabric that brings out the moire in the results of the D800e.

    Now most will acknowledge that the D800e has very small pixels, but it still shows moire. Many pros have not bought the D800e, but have instead bought the D800 mainly due to the moire possibilities they might get from D800e images.

    I wonder if the new Sony RX1 has moire effects in its images?

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    Re: M 240 AA filter or not

    It has been confirmed in one of the interviews at photokina that the typ 240 does not have a AA filter. As Douglas said, the higher pixel density means less moire than the M9, but in order to remove moire substantially, you need a 160 mp sensor, so it's not going to be a dramatic difference from the M9. Anyhow, moire is just an artifact like any other. It has never bothered me in the past, and I doubt it is a deal breaker for many judging by the popularity of the M8 and M9 among Leica users.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

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    Re: M 240 AA filter or not

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi There
    Without going in to a discussion about the definition of an AA filter. The situation with the M(240) is the same as that of the M9, and, as such, it's possible that there will be moire and coloured specular highlights just like you do on the M9, together with the same kind of detail you get with the M9.

    As for the 50 'cron APO Asph. I don't think it'll be a year, but anyway, postponed by a year might as well be from the original date (May 2011). I've heard many stories, and several different ones.
    I got definite confirmation from my dealer that the 50 cron asph is delayed.

    He did not speculate as to how long

    Woody

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    Re: M 240 AA filter or not

    Any rigid arrangement like the Bayer pattern will give you moire at some point no matter how fine your pixels it is just a question of frequency collision. If you change the distance to/from the subject you could obtain/reduce moire. It is the nature of the beast till we can get a random arrangement/size of the pixel site on the sensor. My 2 cents worth...

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    Senior Member Taylor Sherman's Avatar
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    Re: M 240 AA filter or not

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    An AA filter is essentially a beam splitter, and it is the same thing as what is usually referred to as a blur filter. The M9 doesn't have an AA filter, especially not attached to its inexpensive IR filter (Kyocera BS7,) and the camera exhibits moire rather frequently. Assuming the M 240 also doesn't have an AA filter, it should exhibit less moire than the M9, because of the smaller pixels.
    Also. . .you can't do AA in software. You can *try*, but you can't really do it. The best you can do is guess - "uh, this is real detail! and that over there, that's false detail due to aliasing. . .sure, that's the ticket!". But there isn't even a good way to guess about it. False detail due to aliasing can take on almost any form. . . that's the whole point of aliasing. Frequencies higher than the Nyquist rate masquerade as lower frequencies, and they can show up as anything from baseband to the Nyquist, there's no way to tell them apart from the "real" frequencies in that range.

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    Re: M 240 AA filter or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor Sherman View Post
    Also. . .you can't do AA in software. You can *try*, but you can't really do it. The best you can do is guess - "uh, this is real detail! and that over there, that's false detail due to aliasing. . .sure, that's the ticket!". But there isn't even a good way to guess about it. False detail due to aliasing can take on almost any form. . . that's the whole point of aliasing. Frequencies higher than the Nyquist rate masquerade as lower frequencies, and they can show up as anything from baseband to the Nyquist, there's no way to tell them apart from the "real" frequencies in that range.
    The interesting thing is that so many shooters seem to prefer the look of AA-less files, despite all of the false detail.

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