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Thread: Expectations for the New M

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Expectations for the New M

    Getting the new M will be an important event affecting my photography . I shoot primarily street and travel in color and work with two M bodies and 3-4 lenses . For my work, there is much to like in the specifications of the new M and yet an awareness that this is not going to be easy .

    I ve handled the new M at ProPhotoPLus in NYC ..tried out the EVF and got a feel for the new body . I know Leica well having used pretty much every Leica camera since the M2 and the first SL . Suffered thru the launches of the M8,M9 and the S2 ..even used a DMR for a few years .

    My expectations are that Leica will have solved many of the limitations of the M9 ( a product they rushed to market using old technology ) . The limitations of a weak in camera processor , in adequate buffer and a small capacity battery will be addressed. Weather sealing will slow my heart rate in a downpour ( I ve been lucky).

    I know that the handling and feel of the camera ,the CRF viewing and discrete size and shape ..have been retained . The camera has evolved in form not changed .

    The major improvements (that are different ) will all come from the move to CMOS .

    1. Better high ISO performance .....the ability to render high IQ at ISO s above 640 . My expectation is that the new sensor will perform as an excellent CMOS sensor that has been optimized for low ISO performance . The goal will be to produce the very best IQ at base ISO and then work toward improvements at higher ISO s . This means that ISO 1600 would be a target for excellent high ISO IQ and that ISO 3200 and 6400 would be usable with diminished DR and color saturation.

    2. EVF to open up the use of longer lenses ,macro etc . The EVF add on bodies are out there now in the micro4/3rd offerings . No need to debate the capabilities ,the Leica offering will be a Olympus EVF that exists today . My expectation is that it will open up the use of lenses such as the 135APO. My POV is that its not in any way an R solution (another topic) but that it can extend the capabilities of the kit by allowing the use of R lenses . (adding a 180 to my kit is much less bulk that carrying a DSLR to achieve a moderate telephoto).

    I feel good that I understand the benefits and they are note worthy . The biggest question is the change from a CCD to CMOS sensor . How will it affect the aesthetic ? I am sure the new M will produce excellent IQ by any standard but I am not certain that I will like the new look .

    (FYI I have spent the last 4 months working with Leica R lenses on the D800E bodies . The files will not be confused with a typical N/C/S CMOS rendering but they are different from the CCD files of the M9/S2).
    Roger Dunham
    http://rogerdunham.com/
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    Member StephenPatterson's Avatar
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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    I think your expectations are reasonable (especially high ISO performance) and agree this really comes down to how the new CMOS sensor will compare to the CCD. I recently sold my backup M9 and now use a Canon 5Diii as my second body.

    It's more to carry, but I made the choice that the advantages of being a mature platform, with excellent high ISO performance, weather sealing (body and lenses) and overall outstanding IQ (especially with prime lenses) made it an easier decision.

    I will admit that a part of my decision was based on possible down time and expense for my Leica gear, which I always worried about while in wet and misty weather, slogging through a rice paddy, or trying to navigate on some small boat. Now in such conditions I find myself putting the Leica away and letting the Canon take point.

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    From experience, using long lenses hand-held on mirrorless with focus at the sensor is a challenge, without in body stabilization. Yes, it will be wonderful to be able to use these optics on the same body that uses standard M optics, but to nail the focus will require magnifying the image, which results in a very shaky view and loss of framing.

    Perhaps they've found a method of focus peaking where accuracy doesn't suffer under standard EVF magnification. In my experience however, focus peaking gets you close, but magnification is required to actually nail the focus plane exactly.

    In other words, expectations should be somewhat tempered, at least when it comes to using anything more than about 100mm on the new M, hand-held. Camera shake isn't much of an issue, any moreso than shooting an SLR with film; it's viewfinder shake while determining focus that's the problem. Not too difficult for static subjects, but a serious challenge even for very slow-moving subjects.

    IOW, this should be counted as a bonus feature, for macro and occasional use. The other features of the M should dominate, if one is considering moving from the M9.

    For those that shoot long lenses routinely, it's going to be an exercise in frustration...I suggest adapting long glass to an OMD (or lens conversion to A99) is a better solution if one shoots long lenses on a regular basis. Both of these cameras have stabilization and EVFs. Looking through an OMD with a long lens with IBIS enabled is a revelation; time seemingly slows down - no shakes! Or just carry a Canon with AF lenses.
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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    For me it will end up being quality of file using my lenses thank you very much.

    All the other stuff is just - marmalade on toast - I prefer properly cooked bacon and eggs - sunny side up...
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    Subscriber robsteve's Avatar
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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    I feel good that I understand the benefits and they are note worthy . The biggest question is the change from a CCD to CMOS sensor . How will it affect the aesthetic ? I am sure the new M will produce excellent IQ by any standard but I am not certain that I will like the new look .

    (FYI I have spent the last 4 months working with Leica R lenses on the D800E bodies . The files will not be confused with a typical N/C/S CMOS rendering but they are different from the CCD files of the M9/S2).
    Roger:

    Having experienced the D800E myself, I think the switch from a CCD DMR to a CMOS D800E was a bit of a letdown. The D800E still has great image quality, but when pixel peeping, especially over 100iso, it looks more like scanned film than the perfection we would get with well focused DMR shots. This leads me to believe that it wasn't the anti-alias filter that was causing CMOS images to look different than CCD images, but that CMOS just images differently. Maybe like Kodachrome compared to Ektachrome.

    If you are new to the M and never shot a M8, M9, DMR or S2, you probably will think the new M images are fantastic, especially if coming from another brand.

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    Senior Member edwardkaraa's Avatar
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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    I have no expectations myself, except for the corner color shift that leica claims having resolved without resorting to shifted micro lenses. In fact, the corner performance seems a bit weak in the latest samples, even in small jpgs.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    My expectations are very simple:

    - It will be a fine Leica, an advance on the M9 in terms of responsiveness and features, lens compatibility and versatility. The ability to do Live View and capture video will expand the M's usefulness by quite a lot.

    - It will be different from an M9 in terms of how it sees.

    Every digital camera I've owned has a slightly different way of seeing. That's why I've owned so many different ones. The M9's eye is quite lovely, I'm very happy with it. The new M will most likely have a different eye ... new sensor, more pixels, different microlens setup, etc ... but until I have the camera in my hands I cannot and will not judge whether I like it more, less, or the same as the M9.

    - It potentially can help simplify my camera gear by some measure. Its ability to do macro and long lens work means that I would have less need to keep my other TTL electronic and SLR bodies around, as those two things are most of what I do with them.

    However, I've seen that a good deal of my attempt to simplify my gear hasn't really done much to do that, so I don't expect a miracle. Because all of my cameras are different, I find it a pleasure to use different ones in different circumstances. I don't need to sell any of them other than to satisfy an internal urge to less ownership of things. So, the likelihood is that buying a new M will just add another camera to the already overstuffed cabinet. Such it is. :-\

    I look forward to the new M, without any haste or anxiousness. I'll be using the M9 for some years to come, I expect that if I decide to buy a new M it will be in 2014 or later. Leica will have plenty of time to work out any new product issues before I plunk my money down. :-)

    G
    Godfrey - GDGPhoto Flickr Stream
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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    Roger:

    Having experienced the D800E myself, I think the switch from a CCD DMR to a CMOS D800E was a bit of a letdown. The D800E still has great image quality, but when pixel peeping, especially over 100iso, it looks more like scanned film than the perfection we would get with well focused DMR shots. This leads me to believe that it wasn't the anti-alias filter that was causing CMOS images to look different than CCD images, but that CMOS just images differently. Maybe like Kodachrome compared to Ektachrome.

    If you are new to the M and never shot a M8, M9, DMR or S2, you probably will think the new M images are fantastic, especially if coming from another brand.
    Rob

    I agree with your findings but believe the files can be closer than they first appear . Remember the various manufacturers are getting very different aesthetics from essentially the same sensors (D3x and A900 for example ) . The D800E files are very very good and in some situations every bit as good as the Leica DNG s .....but the aesthetic is greatly affected by the color calibration ,tone curve and in camera noise reduction .

    Nikon shooters have no reason to modify the aesthetic or look . They use Nikon ..all the files look great and they season (process) to taste . Its only when you can compare a DMR that you miss the color rendering . Neither the M9 or the S2 matched the color of the DMR but you could process the files to appear similar . This is much more difficult with the D800E files and creating a repeatable process that I can automate has proved elusive .

    I am hopeful that the new M files can be processed to retain the Leica look of the M8.M9 .S2 and DMR ...slightly different is fine but a common family aesthetic .

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    I certainly hope the latest "Images" posted by Leica are only a first attempt. Appears they were shot 5 months ago. So far I like my M9 and 5D3 images better.

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    I certainly hope the latest "Images" posted by Leica are only a first attempt. Appears they were shot 5 months ago. So far I like my M9 and 5D3 images better.
    The wild assumption is that Leica at this point knows what they are doing...in regards to CMOS Live View Video....if history allows us to prognosticate...then the results may be less than stellar.

    I would assume that three generations forward will provide us with a usable CMOS rendition of the M....buyer beware....beta testing has become the norm for those who enter into the system at an early point.

    If you have a workable system with a M8 8.2 9 or monochrome it may be worth watching the weeping and gnashing of teeth of the early adopters for a period of time prior to buying into the reality.

    JMHO

    Bob
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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Wow Bob. Having been a Canon user since my first F1 and later on to Hasselblad up to my current H4D60, I was very disappointed with Hasselblad's offering at Photokina. At that time, I was hoping Hasselblad was forward thinking enough to come up with a larger sensor version of the Leica. So that not being the case, I decided on the new M, but it will be my first Leica ever. The thinking was that the M would give me some more freedom than the very heavy Hassy for walking around photography. Last week I sorely missed my Hassy in Hawaii and was disappointed with my Canon files, so I have already been getting cold feet about the new M, and now I read your post. Decisions, decisions.

    Greg

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Buying and selling gear on the rumor of its quality is somewhat less than best practice. However, I am confident the new M will be a fine camera, despite the crappy sample photos.

    I never believe in sample photos anyway.

    G

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    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I never believe in sample photos anyway.
    If the early sample photos were an indication of the camera's potential the Canon 5DII would never have left the dealer's shelves.

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    I certainly hope the latest "Images" posted by Leica are only a first attempt. Appears they were shot 5 months ago. So far I like my M9 and 5D3 images better.
    Best to wait for production samples with production firmware to make comparisons. That's what Leica is selling, not prototypes with beta firmware.

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    Member StephenPatterson's Avatar
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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    Best to wait for production samples with production firmware to make comparisons. That's what Leica is selling, not prototypes with beta firmware.
    I believe I could make a strong argument that my M8 was little more than a "prototype" for my M9. Certainly I felt that having to attach UV/IR filters and load new firmware to correct, or at least improve, issues such as magenta edge, made it feel as if I was a beta tester.

    The leading edge is the bleeding edge.

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    I do not have any expectations. The new camera will be released and there will be a waiting list, then there will be lots of reviews and sample files to look at, followed by plenty of time to decide if I will spring for one.

    I have discovered, for me anyway, Leica makes it easy for me to manage my expectations with their products.

    . . . . . in the meantime, the M9 along with my MP and M6TTL meet my expectation.

    I am sure a MM would meet my expectations as well but that will have to wait awhile longer.

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    I created this post as a response to an ongoing discussion of the IQ from the initial samples . My experience with each of the Leica introductions m8,m9,s2,mono etc is that I ve learned very little from preproduction samples . Even the early reviews seem to be handicapped by the new camera (beta) aspects and mismatched raw conversions .

    In many cases (the S2 and MONO being exceptions ) the technology utilized is readily available and performance can be estimated or predicted by just looking at existing equipment .

    The new M will be one of the most hyped new camera introductions in a while . Any new M would be. Expectations ..had I not been through this a few times ...are sure to be greatly above reality . (the R solution ..seriously ?) .

    The reality is that any prospective purchaser should know a lot about the performance of the new M without every seeing it . Leica is not going to produce a 23MP M that doesn t have superb IQ with M lenses . (A D800E has superb IQ with R glass . We saw that Sony could tune their last generation sensor to produce excellent color with zeiss glass on the A900.) Leica will get this right hopefully either at or soon after introduction.

    The aesthetic I believe will be different ..the m8,m9 and S2 all had similar sensors and were tuned to a specific color rendition . CCD files look different from CMOS. This isn t something I will be able to determine from preproduction samples. The S2 files were terrible for months until Leica and Adobe finally synched their processes. This is important to only a small percentage of the potential M users . (those that are looking for continuity of the Leica look in their work ).

    I am not on the fence about the new M ....I will get one asap . My expectations is that it will be far from perfect and that it will take some real effort to adapt post processing to the new sensor . I expect that it will be flawed in some significant way and require a trip to Solms for update and that several firmware updates will be required . I will miss the CCD look as I did when the DMR finally had to go (neither the M9 or the S2 ever matched the color of the DMR ).

    But I will receive some important benefits as well. I will forget the struggles I ve had shooting at dark with the M9 and grow to think that ISO1600 can actually be used without significant degrading of IQ. I will no longer sweat bullets when shooting in a downpour or at the beach . I won t have 4-5 batteries in my pockets just in case. I will miss less opportunities waiting for the buffer to clear . And ..I will still be happy I am using my M s ....its just going to take some time to get there .

    I don t think I need samples from the Dr to feel I know enough.
    Roger Dunham
    http://rogerdunham.com/
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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    I ordered an M the day after it was announced, so I should get one of the first examples to hit the retail market.
    My thinking was "well, I've got M glass and R glass (including a Leica APO-Telyt-R 280mm F/2.8), what could be wrong?"
    But now I'm have second thoughts, especially about trying to use focus peaking. I've considered canceling the M and getting an OM-D just to test the focus peaking waters before I make a final decision.

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    You have little to worry about . The large Leica dealers had dozens of orders months before the new M was announced . BH,Adorama,amazon and samys (the normal on line dealers in the USA linked by the various websites ) will fill only a small percentage of their first day orders . Leica intentionally sends out an initial batch and then holds back the rest . Look at watch happened with their last two lenses (35 lux and 50 apo ) both recalled . The initial shipment of M9 s to the USA was 20. The 2nd shipment was 10 times larger . That only covers the first few orders at each dealer . It takes about 60-90 days from the first camera showing up to see many in circulation.

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    Senior Member edwardkaraa's Avatar
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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by kkdanamatt View Post
    I ordered an M the day after it was announced, so I should get one of the first examples to hit the retail market.
    My thinking was "well, I've got M glass and R glass (including a Leica APO-Telyt-R 280mm F/2.8), what could be wrong?"
    But now I'm have second thoughts, especially about trying to use focus peaking. I've considered canceling the M and getting an OM-D just to test the focus peaking waters before I make a final decision.
    Don't worry about focus peaking, and especially don't believe the guys who commented negatively about it. I have had the chance to own a GXR M mount for about a year. The focus peaking is fantastic. It works extremely well for lenses of 35 mm equivalent AOV and above, and for wider lenses, with a small button push, you get magnified view that gives you amazing control on focus even when the lens is stopped down.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by BANKER1 View Post
    Wow Bob. Having been a Canon user since my first F1 and later on to Hasselblad up to my current H4D60, I was very disappointed with Hasselblad's offering at Photokina. At that time, I was hoping Hasselblad was forward thinking enough to come up with a larger sensor version of the Leica. So that not being the case, I decided on the new M, but it will be my first Leica ever. The thinking was that the M would give me some more freedom than the very heavy Hassy for walking around photography. Last week I sorely missed my Hassy in Hawaii and was disappointed with my Canon files, so I have already been getting cold feet about the new M, and now I read your post. Decisions, decisions.

    Greg
    Greg,

    Let me backtrack a bit from my previous statement....

    The reality with Leica is that the first rendition of a camera can be a bit rough but that does not mean it is unusable nor unloveable. I loved the files from my M8, 8.2, 9 but watched as we struggled through issues concerning filters, calibration of lens, backfocus, cracked sensor covers, lens cast and poor profiles from Adobe. We all learned a lot and that was enough for some to abandon the camera and the system while others thrived as these were addressed.

    Today the M9-P is a fabulous camera that exceeds most knowledgeable users desires within the scope of its use...little macro nor telephoto...no AF.

    The S2 and Monochrom demonstrate how Leica can sidestep current thinking and "hit one out of the park" . However we still await CS lenses...long after their announcement.

    I have no doubt that the new M will arrive and have some teething issues...but it also will become a success...a phenomenal one. However, one can buy a CMOS camera with Live View, Peaking, great high-ISO, manual focus assist with magnification and an adapter for most Leica and other M mount lenses for very little money. There are many....I just purchased the Oly E-PM2 ... sold my OM-D and needed a color option for the M lenses I use on the Monochrom but looked for a small fast camera. Personally I find magnification in manual focus much more useable than peaking.



    Leica 35 Summicron Asph on the EP-2
    Focus Point on Beaded Edge of Pewter Heart
    ISO 1600




    Bowl and Treasures







    Having stood on the ragged peak of the cutting edge with new cameras I will wait for a bit on this one...wait but will buy in when I see something more affirming than the typical Leica product shots. I almost passed on the S2 as their public shots had nothing of interest to me. SO when Thorsten, Jono, Marc Williams, Tim Ashley, Matt Driscoll, Charles Kalnins, and Ashwin Rao (no specific order there guys!) start to show us how to use this camera I will jump in.

    And for one starting in the system a used M8.2 and small adapted live view camera will allow the acquisition of a great list of standard M lenses prior to the big NEW M purchase day. The M8.2 will hold its value and makes great BW conversions ... you may not divest this after you move to the new M.

    My present stable of cameras includes the S2-P (replaced my H3DII - 39), Monochrom, Canon 1Dx, Sigma DP2M, Oly EP-2, and Sony RX100...what I need is more time to explore and travel with camera.

    Sorry that the first post was so terse...some days bring that out, and this one is starting to run-on....

    Regards,

    Bob
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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Maybe my experience with focus peaking reflects my lack of experience with it . Using a 135APO on the new M I found that it was not particularly accurate without a magnified view . When the view was magnified it was similar to trying to hand hold a 400mm lens ...very hard to keep the viewed area steady . While this might work well for some types of work ..its inconsistent with the strengths of a traditional RF camera and not comparable to using a similar 135 lens on a DSLR .

    Using a 50 1.4 was entirely different . In this range with a fast lens ..focus peaking worked well ....it was fast accurate enough and the viewing wasn t an issue.

    So as always a lot depends on what you shoot but an EVF using focus peaking doesn t compare to a SLR when using a longer lens .

    Ok now lets try a wide angle ..the 21/3.4SEM ....set it to f8 and the entire screen flashes using focus peaking ..compare that to using the RF ..again focus peaking is not as good .

    Its nice to have an alternative and if using an EVF ..I want focus peaking ..but its not an improvement for the majority of my applications .

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    The Ricoh GXR has excellent focus peaking and magnification options. Peaking is great to quickly get the focus into the ballpark, then I turn it off and use magnification to find the critical focus point. How much magnification depends on the focal length ... With something as long as a 135, often 2x or none. With a 21mm, 8x is good.

    Working with a TTL electronic display is more akin to using an SLR viewfinder with these assist options. Learn to see focus first without them, then use them as they have value for your needs. Completely different from using an optical RF focusing system...

    G

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    The time before the release of a desired (and expensive) camera is always one fraught with both excitement and anxiety, and I, for one, am looking forward to seeing with the M 240 will deliver. I agree with nearly all that Roger has said, and also have some suspicions that Robert is also right in his assessments regarding the use of longer lenses.

    Overall, I see very little value in the sample photos tested to date. First off, they are JPEG's, rather than RAW files, which colors perspective on what the sensor can output. Second, being uniformly websized prints, it's hard to make judgement calls on how the CCD may differentiate from CMOS, which tends to be in the province of pixelpeeping and looking at more subtle details in big prints. Third, most of the images presented, were taken when stopped down, where many lenses perform similarly.

    All in all, I expect that the M will be quite adequate and I'd suspect that there may be a slight difference in the fingerprint/signature of the files due to CMOS properties. I think it may be hard for any of us to pick these differences out consistently. I think color signatures, tonal rendition, etc, are what Leica's probably working on, to make sure that the presence of images taken with the M is comparable to the prior digital M's.

    I am not entirely convinced that the EVF option will be that great in practice, but I guess that we'll see.

    I can say that to date, the M9, MM, and M8 all have slightly different signatures of rendering, in my experience, and the M may be different as well. It'll certainly improve on high ISO performance, and I hope that low ISO IQ and detail will be preserved

    I do hope that a future generation of the M will consider adding in camera image stabilization, but it seems that the market is divided on this. It would be great to use legacy M lenses with IS. This, in and of itself, will help many of us save difficult images.
    Ashwin Rao
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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Indeed. I'd swap weather sealing for IBIS in a heartbeat.
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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    I have carried my Leica M9-P for a year now, including camping for a month in very wet Alaska, through Colorado snowstorms at high altitude, and in rainstorms. I am as careful as realistically possible in these situations, but the camera does get wet and sometimes frozen with a bit of ice. I use a microfiber cloth to minimize the moisture. I have yet to have a problem with the M9-P and it's lack of "weather-proofing" that the new M will have.

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Indeed. I'd swap weather sealing for IBIS in a heartbeat.


    +1 I would too, as long as it was defeatable (could be turned off). Except for possibly a slight increase in weight gain, I cannot think of any major disadvanatge. Maybe there is one, but nothing comes to mind.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 25th January 2013 at 05:49.

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    I'd echo that H. Mark ... in fact I've never had an issue with weather sealing on anything, ever ... including MFD when caught in a sustained Monsoon downpour ... or shooting when and where I want with any M. If I only made photographs in nice weather I'd have to move away from Michigan.

    All these so called restrictions are part of homogenizing every camera so they are more the same than they are different. Needs drive all this, and needs differ ... but these days each camera is measured against all needs ... which tends to turn specific Thoroughbreds into do-it-all Camels.

    RE: Needs ... I've never reached the buffer on my M9P including shooting fast paced weddings with one, and most every camera suffers some image faults past ISO 1200, so I try not to exceed that. Hi ISOs never has changed the quality of bad light to be good light, ever.

    IQ is all that counts, and that's going to be all in the eye of the beholder. However, there will be the usual techno-bullying to get more folks assimilated to the "new" aesthetic".

    -Marc

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Maybe my experience with focus peaking reflects my lack of experience with it . Using a 135APO on the new M I found that it was not particularly accurate without a magnified view . When the view was magnified it was similar to trying to hand hold a 400mm lens ...very hard to keep the viewed area steady . While this might work well for some types of work ..its inconsistent with the strengths of a traditional RF camera and not comparable to using a similar 135 lens on a DSLR .

    Using a 50 1.4 was entirely different . In this range with a fast lens ..focus peaking worked well ....it was fast accurate enough and the viewing wasn t an issue.

    So as always a lot depends on what you shoot but an EVF using focus peaking doesn t compare to a SLR when using a longer lens .

    Ok now lets try a wide angle ..the 21/3.4SEM ....set it to f8 and the entire screen flashes using focus peaking ..compare that to using the RF ..again focus peaking is not as good .

    Its nice to have an alternative and if using an EVF ..I want focus peaking ..but its not an improvement for the majority of my applications .
    This was what I also found when I used NEX for some time with some manual lenses (and why I the normally just used AF lenses on the NEX).

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Weather sealing may be just a comfort and maybe not . Shooting mostly travel and street ...I shoot in the rain and downpours frequently . Days that rain on and off with some sunshine often produce great light . With my M8 s I was in downpour that was equal to pouring a glass of water on the cameras top plate . All I got was a slightly sticky on off switch . But I remember the LL trip to antarctica where almost every Canon 5D failed ..so maybe its just a worry . But when digital camera gets wet enough its gone and blowing an expensive trip is almost as bad a losing a camera . So its a tough specification to put a value on . At $8K a body it should be expected .

    The high ISO will not ,as Mark pointed out , make bad light good . But I find that in the twilight hours having ISO1600 is enough to retain the higher shutter speeds I use on the street . This is all about subjects and the techniques the photographer finds help in getting the photograph . Its pretty common for the new MONO owners to comment on the IQ at higher ISOs . So its extending the range of performance by a few EV and getting better DR ,color ,noise etc at the middle ISO s ....rather than establishing bragging rights at ISO s over 3200 . Most current FF CMOS based cameras will produce excellent IQ up to ISO 800 and totally acceptable IQ at ISO1600 . Side by side the M9 is a full EV below that performance ..so I expect the new M will match the performance of the current CMOS offerings . It will be tuned for best IQ at the base ISO levels so I don t expect ISO 5000 anytime soon.

    Surprised that filling the buffer hasn t been mentioned . Its a common complaint from the PJ I have met . If you made the transition from film into the Pro DSLR ...you become accustomed to instantaneous response (similar to a fast computer ) . When I shoot on the street ..I do my best to get positioned for success ..but when an opportunity arrives I do everything I can to capture that moment . While I do not shot on continuous .. I try to keep my head in the game for at least 4-6 captures then I reframe and move and shoot again if I can . Its not a huge deal ...but I appreciate the responsiveness of my D800E and I expect the new M will be an improvement .

    The M9 is a tough act to follow and I do not expect major improvements in IQ at the base ISO ....rather I am hoping that I will not be accepting trade offs caused by the move to CMOS .

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Weather sealing may be just a comfort and maybe not . Shooting mostly travel and street ...I shoot in the rain and downpours frequently . Days that rain on and off with some sunshine often produce great light . With my M8 s I was in downpour that was equal to pouring a glass of water on the cameras top plate . All I got was a slightly sticky on off switch . But I remember the LL trip to antarctica where almost every Canon 5D failed ..so maybe its just a worry . But when digital camera gets wet enough its gone and blowing an expensive trip is almost as bad a losing a camera . So its a tough specification to put a value on . At $8K a body it should be expected .

    The high ISO will not ,as Mark pointed out , make bad light good . But I find that in the twilight hours having ISO1600 is enough to retain the higher shutter speeds I use on the street . This is all about subjects and the techniques the photographer finds help in getting the photograph . Its pretty common for the new MONO owners to comment on the IQ at higher ISOs . So its extending the range of performance by a few EV and getting better DR ,color ,noise etc at the middle ISO s ....rather than establishing bragging rights at ISO s over 3200 . Most current FF CMOS based cameras will produce excellent IQ up to ISO 800 and totally acceptable IQ at ISO1600 . Side by side the M9 is a full EV below that performance ..so I expect the new M will match the performance of the current CMOS offerings . It will be tuned for best IQ at the base ISO levels so I don t expect ISO 5000 anytime soon.

    Surprised that filling the buffer hasn t been mentioned . Its a common complaint from the PJ I have met . If you made the transition from film into the Pro DSLR ...you become accustomed to instantaneous response (similar to a fast computer ) . When I shoot on the street ..I do my best to get positioned for success ..but when an opportunity arrives I do everything I can to capture that moment . While I do not shot on continuous .. I try to keep my head in the game for at least 4-6 captures then I reframe and move and shoot again if I can . Its not a huge deal ...but I appreciate the responsiveness of my D800E and I expect the new M will be an improvement .

    The M9 is a tough act to follow and I do not expect major improvements in IQ at the base ISO ....rather I am hoping that I will not be accepting trade offs caused by the move to CMOS .
    As mentioned, needs differ. I'd agree that weather sealing should be part of an $8K tool, but those M lenses aren't sealed. It is nice that the MM can deliver higher ISOs, yet that is due to total avoidance of any color issues that accompany higher ISO digital capture.

    The buffer issue is one of shooting style ... IMO, fast DSLRs have promoted run-n-gun PJ styles that have done nothing to advance the decisive moment type of rangefinder photography ... and maybe has added to its demise.

    -Marc

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by kkdanamatt View Post
    But now I'm have second thoughts, especially about trying to use focus peaking. I've considered canceling the M and getting an OM-D just to test the focus peaking waters before I make a final decision.
    Is there focus peaking on the OM-D? I'm not aware of it on my copy.

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    No focus peaking on OM-D.

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    IBIS ... Eh? Not really all that useful for what he M is best at. Image stabilization is best at helping make longer lenses more hand hold able in decent light. Be nice for my 90/4 and 135/4.5, not terribly much of an advantage otherwise.

    I wish the M9 had the 12 frame raw buffer and responsiveness of my Olympus E-1. And the write speed of the Oly E-5. ... :-)

    G

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    That's exactly what I referenced above.

    An M with focus assist magnification ideally should also have IBIS, otherwise the proposition of 90 and 135mm lenses isn't really well served; just use the rangefinder instead. Hand-holding those lenses while looking thru the EVF with 2-4x magnification (or something similar) is an exercise in frustration....shakiness, difficulty in following the subject to make sure it's still in the frame, all the while trying to nail the focus...all this is solved with a tripod and static subjects, but how many people carry along tripods with their Ms? Not saying it's never done, but that's not the real essence of M photography. IBIS would make a huge difference. Shooting a long manual focus lens on an OM-D with IBIS is a revelation. Time seemingly slows down. No shakiness!

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    I have to disagree there, Robert.

    IMO, IBIS = BS

    Once the focus is nailed (by whatever means) if the camera offers stability and the shutter is quiet then that is worth more than all that shake stuff.

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    The first time I used adapted lenses on mirrorless was over 4 years ago, a Nikkor 105 on a Panasonic G1. I went to the lake and shot some ducks. I wanted to nail focus on the eye.

    Try that with 4x magnification, when the duck is moving around, and the viewfinder is shaking like an earthquake.

    105mm is equivalent to 210mm, at 4x mag that's like looking thru an 840mm lens. How many people can hand hold an 840mm lens, let alone nail manual focus on a particular zone in the image, while the subject is moving? And most of the view that will be in the image, you can't see, because of the magnification of the center (or wherever the focus point might be.) And if the eye is not in the center, use the cursor to move the focus point.

    I ran out of talent.

    It's a nice thing to have, being able to adapt lenses to the M, but there a many limitations...there are simply better alternatives for certain shooting situations. I wouldn't expect an M to replace a DSLR for those situations. IBIS will most certainly help, if it were as good as the IBIS in the OM-D for example. But even IBIS does not turn an M into a DSLR...
    Last edited by monza; 25th January 2013 at 09:26.

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    That's exactly what I referenced above.

    An M with focus assist magnification ideally should also have IBIS, otherwise the proposition of 90 and 135mm lenses isn't really well served; just use the rangefinder instead. Hand-holding those lenses while looking thru the EVF with 2-4x magnification (or something similar) is an exercise in frustration....shakiness, difficulty in following the subject to make sure it's still in the frame, all the while trying to nail the focus...all this is solved with a tripod and static subjects, but how many people carry along tripods with their Ms? Not saying it's never done, but that's not the real essence of M photography. IBIS would make a huge difference. Shooting a long manual focus lens on an OM-D with IBIS is a revelation. Time seemingly slows down. No shakiness!
    I don't find stability to be much of a problem when focusing with 90 and 135 mm focal lengths using an EVF .. I do it all the time with the GXR and have never had any difficulties at all. You hardly need magnification to focus with such long focal lengths.

    With longer focal lengths, yes: but with longer focal lengths I'll use a tripod anyway to get the best results. 200mm is the longest tele I feel comfortable hand-holding with 35mm FF format if I'm looking for consistent sharpness.

    I tend to use a tripod whenever critical sharpness is required by the subjects I'm shooting. That's very rare for people photography, much more appropriate for architecture, copy, macro, and almost any extreme wide angle or long telephoto work. IS helps ONLY with the hand-held, middling tele work IMO.

    G

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    The first time I used adapted lenses on mirrorless was over 4 years ago, a Nikkor 105 on a Panasonic G1. I went to the lake and shot some ducks. I wanted to nail focus on the eye.

    Try that with 4x magnification, when the duck is moving around, and the viewfinder is shaking like an earthquake. ...
    I've never needed magnification to focus a 105mm lens on the G1 with critical accuracy. Why use it?


    Panasonic G1 fitted with Nikkor 105/2.5AI lens
    ISO 100 @ f/4 @ 1/125 sec


    Hand-held ... That's made a razor sharp 16x20 inch print. Just because you have magnification doesn't mean you have to use it all the time ... !

    G

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    As I said, I ran out of talent.

    Perhaps it will work better with focus peaking, without requiring magnification, which the G1 of course did not have.

    Sometimes the nature of the shot helps with peaking, but not always. I shoot a NEX on almost a daily basis, and usually it requires both peaking and magnification.

    Here is one shot on a NEX 7 with 105/2 DC Nikkor. The camera was on a tripod, and because of the nature of the lighting, focus peaking was sufficient. Although I had to break my neck looking through the EVF to confirm; the flip up LCD was useless in that lighting...


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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    In any event, this thread is entitled 'Expectations.' I hope that people don't have unrealistic ones, that the M with live view and EVF and focus peaking is somehow going to cover all photographic bases for every shooter...

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Hand-held ... That's made a razor sharp 16x20 inch print.
    Nice!

    But...that's not a moving duck.

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Nice!

    But...that's not a moving duck.
    LOL!
    Sorry, I don't shoot many pictures of ducks. ;-)

    I have a lovely egret in flight that is also razor sharp without needing any magnification or peaking assistance to focus it, but it was taken with a different adapted lens on a different camera body.

    Returning to the subject of expectations for the new M: I expect it to be a fine rangefinder camera, with the added benefits derived from being able to do Live View and capture video. I don't expect that Live View and video will be essential to using it, just like I've not found image stabilization to be essential to my photography either.

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    I have posted here back in December an image of a statue at night with the R 280/4.0 at 4.0 focused on a GXR+M mount and then switched the camera body to a Monochrom. I had no problem with the focusing setup nor while focusing. The lens was mounted on a Gitzo 2500 series tripod in a stiff wind and freezing temperatures.
    Last edited by algrove; 25th January 2013 at 18:35.

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Yes, tripods are great image stabilizers.

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Quite frankly, it is odd to be discussing tripods and focus peking with a M instead unique braided leather straps and Luigi cases in different colors and feel.

    I could throw the G1s and the NEX' around without much concern in a back pack. What kind of pouches and bags would be be looking fo he M.

    This is not Leica like.

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Quite frankly, it is odd to be discussing tripods and focus peking with a M instead unique braided leather straps and Luigi cases in different colors and feel.

    I could throw the G1s and the NEX' around without much concern in a back pack. What kind of pouches and bags would be be looking fo he M.

    This is not Leica like.
    I don't know what's not Leica like about it. I treat all my cameras with the same care and use the same bags/cases/straps for all of them too. ??

    G

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Quite frankly, it is odd to be discussing tripods and focus peking with a M instead unique braided leather straps and Luigi cases in different colors and feel.

    Just wondering which Leica body are you currently shooting with Vivek.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Although there is all this talk about how "IS" may possibly useful with longer focal length lenses, focus peaking, EVF magnification etc,....don't forget for some, simply being able to take a low light shot, at dusk or nighttime etc., hand held with even a fast lens, might require a shutter speed thats just not handholdable unless the ISO isaised to a level that would be detrimental to age quality. In this case and some others where a few stops are gained from use of IS, it can certainly be an advanatge even for a simple camera like a M9, M-E, etc...maybe even the new "M" with it's improved higher ISO performance. IS also has had it's place with regards to certain kinds of photographic situations with DSLR's. I'm not a hugh fan of it (IS), but I've been saved by it, more than once.

    Again everyone's needs and style of photography are different....some want/need IS, some don't...some want an EVF, focus peaking etc., some don't. If the feature can be turned off and effectivly transparent, then this opens up options for all.

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Two things I'm glad to see that haven't been mentioned are return to the 2m frame lines of the M8.2 and a more quiet shutter re-cock sound (based on video reviews) than the obnoxious motor wind of the other digital Ms.

    Of course the key will be IQ, and all of this awaits testing. But I welcome an M that's virtually the same size as the M8 or M9 (only heavier due to a larger battery) that's better sealed, and with the potential capability to avoid hauling around a bulky DSLR for the occasional tripod/tele shot.

    No rush in any case, as I've never been an early adopter, preferring to let the inevitable teething issues get sorted. In the meantime, I still prefer the M8.2 for my needs and preferences.

    Nice to have choices, all of which are fully capable of providing the means to get to the ultimate print.

    Jeff

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    Re: Expectations for the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    don't forget for some, simply being able to take a low light shot, at dusk or nighttime etc., hand held with even a fast lens, might require a shutter speed thats just not handholdable
    Indeed...the Leica has traditionally been known for low light photography, it would make sense for them to continue that tradition with IBIS. It's just as useful with shorter focal lengths.

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