How do you know the worse lens was not in spec?
Perhaps the other lens was just unusually good.
Do you have the manufacturer's specs, and the equipment required to test your lens to those specs?...
And do you know how to use that equipment?
- Leigh
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Today should have been a good day but....
- Thread starter Alun
- Start date
Perhaps the other lens was just unusually good.
Do you have the manufacturer's specs, and the equipment required to test your lens to those specs?...
And do you know how to use that equipment?
- Leigh
PeterA
Well-known member
Whilst agreeing with the impeccable logic of Bob's above .. as soon as a box is opened - irrespective of reason it becomes a DEMO item subject to significantly lower pricing in my book.
I take personal delivery of every new Leica item M item I ever purchase and make it clear to the dealer I use down here in OZ that I will not buy - even if the outer box (grey) has been opened..
IF it has been opened it is a 'demo' items immediately as AFIC
and appropriately in those circumstances, I'd rather have the 'call' on wether to negotiate the price down of a demo item - irrespective of circumstance - every time.
I have no doubt that the Leica warranty if I decide to purchase will cover any significant issue found - but I ill have paid a lower price for the privilege.
If I by something new and I find an issue - at least I know the issue occurred at the factory - and not in someone else's poor handling ...I have removed a risk - or been compensated for taking on an unwelcome risk.
Anyway maybe my perspective and logic is due to the fact that arbitrage is a big part of how I earn my living..
I take personal delivery of every new Leica item M item I ever purchase and make it clear to the dealer I use down here in OZ that I will not buy - even if the outer box (grey) has been opened..
IF it has been opened it is a 'demo' items immediately as AFIC
and appropriately in those circumstances, I'd rather have the 'call' on wether to negotiate the price down of a demo item - irrespective of circumstance - every time.
I have no doubt that the Leica warranty if I decide to purchase will cover any significant issue found - but I ill have paid a lower price for the privilege.
If I by something new and I find an issue - at least I know the issue occurred at the factory - and not in someone else's poor handling ...I have removed a risk - or been compensated for taking on an unwelcome risk.
Anyway maybe my perspective and logic is due to the fact that arbitrage is a big part of how I earn my living..
edwardkaraa
New member
Sent you a PM Dan.
The "try-and-return" game is an old practice performed by many photographers seeking the best copy they can find.
But that has nothing to do with specs or measurement equipment, it has to do with satisfaction with the final results.
I have found that especially with lenses that have mechanical couplings for focus such as Leica M, there is a factor beyond optical performance that enters into the game, and that is the accuracy of that particular focusing cam with that particular lens. Believe me, I have swapped lenses with another photographer and we both achieved better results.
-bob
GrahamWelland
Subscriber & Workshop Member
The dust bunnies on a new M9 aren't really too much of a concern. When I got all of my M8's & M9 they all needed a clean even though they were most definitely brand new and untouched by any other buyer than me.
However, the 800+ shutter actuation and exposure comp setting suggest that this is a return of some type and shouldn't be sold as new. I consider a new vs tried/test/returned body somewhat differently than a lens. It shouldn't be sold as new.
With lenses it's a bit more of a double standard I think. It would be hard for those folks who get glass and try & return to be upset that they'd received a lens that had been opened and used before (although obviously in BNIB condition!) - you really can't have it both ways unless of course you feel that getting a tested lens is some other poor guy's problem. Double standard. Bad karma on you.
However, the 800+ shutter actuation and exposure comp setting suggest that this is a return of some type and shouldn't be sold as new. I consider a new vs tried/test/returned body somewhat differently than a lens. It shouldn't be sold as new.
With lenses it's a bit more of a double standard I think. It would be hard for those folks who get glass and try & return to be upset that they'd received a lens that had been opened and used before (although obviously in BNIB condition!) - you really can't have it both ways unless of course you feel that getting a tested lens is some other poor guy's problem. Double standard. Bad karma on you.
edwardkaraa
New member
If it wasn't obvious from my earlier posts, I am totally against this ridiculous 14 days return policy. There should be questions asked. If the product has a defect, it should be exchanged, and the faulty piece returned to the manufacturer. I know people who order an item they can't afford, play with it for a few days, and then return it. Also the cherry picking mentioned by Bob, people order 3 copies of the same lens, choose the best copy and return the other 2. Not very fair for the next in line.
I think that cherry picking is a fine and sometimes necessary sport when buying used equipment.
On the new side of things, If the manufacturers actually produced consistently high quality, there would be no temptation. The problem is that for a significant portion of photographers, what for the manufacturer is "good enough" is just not "good enough". But I agree with stuff like cameras, I expect new to be absolutely fresh, and for lenses, since I am a lens whore, I tend to buy used when I can and seek the best I can find. With used lenses, you never know why the lenses were placed on the market. I am convinced that sometimes, based on some of the copies I have seen, that the seller got himself a better copy :ROTFL:
-bob
Anecdotal evidence has taught me that not every new lens returned to a store can be labeled a subpar sample nor that used lenses sold are being put on the market, simply in that they are inferior to another sample of the same lens (other than the seller would like to fund some other piece of equipment). I believe there are way too many factors to make generlizations.
I once ordered a highly touted "new" 3rd party lens from a very well know reputable mail order/brick & mortar store. What I received was a lens that by anyone's standards was "quite heavily" handled much like a store demo and even looked used...fingerprints over the entire lens (who's finish was known to affix dust and fingerprints), plastic bag stuffed below cardboard packaging, which had also been mangled. Lets say it was a sample that wouldn't even pass the E+ cosmetic rating of a new lens. I needed it for a weekend endeavor, so I had no choice but to use it. In all respects it was perfect, optically and mechanically...most notably optically. Subsequenty over time I had a chance to extensively compare this sample against 3 other samples of the same lens and in all honesty, performance between mine and the other 3 wasn't even close, as my initial copy performed head and shoulders above the other 3.....especially in the critical range it was designed for. The other 3 performed similarly to each other, except for minor differences. Go figure!
Alternatively, sometimes testing multiple samples of a given used lens is necessary for certain applications, even when all the samples may be well within specs of what the lens was designed for. For example, I was shooting Pentax 645 film at the time I aquired the 645D digital body. Similar "exceptional" copies of the same lens that perfomed nearly identical on the 645 film body and obviously would have been excellent samples to use on film (and were all designed and manufactured and tested in the film era), unfortunately didn't perform well on the 645D. Often times only one of these samples was adaquate when used in conjunction with a digital sensor. This was the case with many of their lenses (even when critical Af fine tune was determined for each on the 645D). So with certain systems, often times a lens or a given sample of a lens designed in the film era can be well within specs in terms of performance with film, but not be up to par, when used on a digital body.
I know I've gotten somewhat off topic with regards to this thread. With bodies that are returned but sold as new, this is often different than a returned lens in some respects. As with my example cited above, where the product one receives may not be "new" as described, if it's performing flawlessly, then I would think at the very least the buyer should be given the option to either 1) exchange for an un-opened one, 2) some mutually agreeable compensation or 3) returned for a refund. Tough call to make.
Dave (D&A)
I once ordered a highly touted "new" 3rd party lens from a very well know reputable mail order/brick & mortar store. What I received was a lens that by anyone's standards was "quite heavily" handled much like a store demo and even looked used...fingerprints over the entire lens (who's finish was known to affix dust and fingerprints), plastic bag stuffed below cardboard packaging, which had also been mangled. Lets say it was a sample that wouldn't even pass the E+ cosmetic rating of a new lens. I needed it for a weekend endeavor, so I had no choice but to use it. In all respects it was perfect, optically and mechanically...most notably optically. Subsequenty over time I had a chance to extensively compare this sample against 3 other samples of the same lens and in all honesty, performance between mine and the other 3 wasn't even close, as my initial copy performed head and shoulders above the other 3.....especially in the critical range it was designed for. The other 3 performed similarly to each other, except for minor differences. Go figure!
Alternatively, sometimes testing multiple samples of a given used lens is necessary for certain applications, even when all the samples may be well within specs of what the lens was designed for. For example, I was shooting Pentax 645 film at the time I aquired the 645D digital body. Similar "exceptional" copies of the same lens that perfomed nearly identical on the 645 film body and obviously would have been excellent samples to use on film (and were all designed and manufactured and tested in the film era), unfortunately didn't perform well on the 645D. Often times only one of these samples was adaquate when used in conjunction with a digital sensor. This was the case with many of their lenses (even when critical Af fine tune was determined for each on the 645D). So with certain systems, often times a lens or a given sample of a lens designed in the film era can be well within specs in terms of performance with film, but not be up to par, when used on a digital body.
I know I've gotten somewhat off topic with regards to this thread. With bodies that are returned but sold as new, this is often different than a returned lens in some respects. As with my example cited above, where the product one receives may not be "new" as described, if it's performing flawlessly, then I would think at the very least the buyer should be given the option to either 1) exchange for an un-opened one, 2) some mutually agreeable compensation or 3) returned for a refund. Tough call to make.
Dave (D&A)
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Shashin
Well-known member
How can a store survive? They may want to put an item on display and can't afford to downgrade all display to demo or even afford to carry two with one as a display. Sorry, an opened box is not an issue nor is it a demo, which is a something that is used.
Shashin
Well-known member
But who could afford it? And to whose definition of "high-quality"? There are some who will never be pleased with anything but perfection--something that can never be achieved. The fact is, manufacturers do an extremely good job of producing high-quality optics at very good prices, very picky customers with too high expectations aside.
Thanks for all the very helpful feedback and advice. The advice from docmoore resonates with me - I am not a collector but a user and I did trawl EBay/Forums etc for a good used deal but the prices that people are anticipating for their used M9's is frankly crazy so i went for a new version. I was disappointed that the store felt that I would not notice that it had been used and 886 activations to be sold as new is just plain wrong.
I will see what they say to me tomorrow. I am open minded and if the offers right for me then I'll go with that else return the item for a refund. I'll keep you posted.....
I will see what they say to me tomorrow. I am open minded and if the offers right for me then I'll go with that else return the item for a refund. I'll keep you posted.....
I think that is a reasoned and reasonable approach.
I must admit that I have had a 15 year plus relationship with a great dealer so I tend to look on the positive side in most cases. If this dealer drops the ball look around...at this level someone you can trust and rely on is a major deal.
If however they make it right you may have established a long term relationship that will serve you well in the future. I have to say that I am a bit jealous of your location and know that you do not have a shop on every other corner...but what potential for landscapes!
There have been a lot of very sound suggestions here...please keep us informed of your decision...and congratulations on the choice of camera...whether it is this one or a replacement.
Regards,
Bob
I must admit that I have had a 15 year plus relationship with a great dealer so I tend to look on the positive side in most cases. If this dealer drops the ball look around...at this level someone you can trust and rely on is a major deal.
If however they make it right you may have established a long term relationship that will serve you well in the future. I have to say that I am a bit jealous of your location and know that you do not have a shop on every other corner...but what potential for landscapes!
There have been a lot of very sound suggestions here...please keep us informed of your decision...and congratulations on the choice of camera...whether it is this one or a replacement.
Regards,
Bob
PeterA
Well-known member
That is the wonderful thing about a market - your definition of what is and what isn't acceptable is different to mine. I do not compel you to accept my standards and all I ask in return ( I don't really ask - I do) is the same consideration.
I do not find it acceptable that client A is allowed to roam freely through so called new inventory and pick and choose according to their own criteria what they will and wont buy - and meanwhile Client B has to suffer the inequity of buying an item that has been previously tested/tried/fondled ( you pick the adjective) and then priced as if it hasn't been.
If a product lacks quality control - then customers wont buy it. I don't need a customer to be his or her own quality control expert - at my cost. So if something has lost its packaged 'virginity' - it should not be priced as a new unused product - it should be priced as a demo product.
Shashin
Well-known member
I do not disagree with a product that has left the shop with a customer and it has been used. But an open box is not an indication the product was used as a demo or anything else--the act of opening a box does not mean a product is used. You are welcome to define what you will buy at any personal level and I am happy to disagree.
Stores used to assess a "re-stocking charge". If a customer returned new merchandise for a refund without a good reason, that charge was deducted from the refund, and also deducted from the resale price of the goods.
That seems like a very equitable arrangement, and discourages cherry picking.
For some reason it's gone out of favor.
- Leigh
That seems like a very equitable arrangement, and discourages cherry picking.
For some reason it's gone out of favor.
- Leigh