Site Sponsors
Results 1 to 43 of 43

Thread: Today should have been a good day but....

  1. #1
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Dyserth, North Wales
    Posts
    9
    Post Thanks / Like

    Today should have been a good day but....

    I took delivery of a brand new Leica M9 yesterday evening together with a Summicron 35m lens. The Leica has been a camera I've lusted after for many years and so it should have been a good day but I'm feeling a little deflated.

    I took it's first pictures this morning (nothing special, just a shot out of the office window) and it was obvious straight away that there were three large dust bunnies in the blue sky. I have to admit that I was a bit suspicious last night when I opened the box to find the inner slightly wear-marked, the plastic wrapper on the body looked like I wasn't the first (or even the second) person who had handled the camera and the exposure compensation in the main menu was set to +1.

    The camera numbering of pictures shows the last one I took was LI000025 yet when I dropped the file into Opanda, the metadata says that it is the 376 shot from this camera?

    I took the attached pictures at f/16 with the lens defocussed so it can only be sensor dust. I have checked the store listing and there's no mention of it being a used or demo camera - I have taken screen shots just in case. This website has downsized the files but if I view the original JPEGS straight from the camera at 100% there must be c. 30 dust bunnies of varying darkness on the file.

    I have emailed the store (an official Leica dealer) with my findings and will wait for their response but I just wondered what other thought about this? Is 376 activations typical of a new camera body (thats been tested in the factory)? Has anyone else found dust on the sensor in a new camera?

  2. #2
    Subscriber Member weinschela's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York suburb
    Posts
    458
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    I would insist that they take it back in exchange for another. The exposure compensation setting and the packaging and the dirt are not acceptable in what is supposed to be a new camera. Maybe one of those issues is, but not all three. They say it was probably a demo.
    Alan

    Selection of work: http://weinschela.zenfolio.com

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    236
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Return immediately.

  4. #4
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Dyserth, North Wales
    Posts
    9
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Thanks for the replies

    I intend to return it as soon as I see how the company (I won't shout them out just yet) want to play it - nice and friendly or make it difficult.

    just in case, does Leica ever get involved in disputes where a dealer is being less than scrupulous?

  5. #5
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    3,848
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    No, Leica will not get involved.

    Did they include new warranty papers?

  6. #6
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Dyserth, North Wales
    Posts
    9
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Yes, all the papers are there - it was sold (and bought by me) as a brand new camera but its obviously not - probably a demo but that should have been highlighted in the ad and it should have been in usable condition (no dust bunnies!).

  7. #7
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    3,848
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Hmm...could have been an oversight, but if they are honorable, should not be a problem rectifying it. If everything is in otherwise working order, maybe they'll give you a better price.

  8. #8
    Senior Member edwardkaraa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Bangkok
    Posts
    1,470
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    My brand new M9 had 122 actuations as checked by M9info but 0 actuations in the folder, no signs of use whatsoever, and a couple of oil spots which are normal for the shutter mechanism.

    By the way, I never buy cameras and lenses from Europe and USA because of the 14 days return policy, no questions asked. I buy usually my lenses from an online retailer in Germany who does not keep stock. He will order directly from the factory. My cameras I buy them locally and will check everything thouroughly at the store prior to committing.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

  9. #9
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32 31' 37.06" N, 111 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Best of luck and please update as you get more information. I had a M9 a couple years ago and it was a great camera.

    Don
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    183
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    I would try to get a better price and a clean up free of charge.
    Good luck with whatever option you decide on.

  11. #11
    Senior Member edwardkaraa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Bangkok
    Posts
    1,470
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Quote Originally Posted by Alun View Post
    Yes, all the papers are there - it was sold (and bought by me) as a brand new camera but its obviously not - probably a demo but that should have been highlighted in the ad and it should have been in usable condition (no dust bunnies!).
    If it was a demo, I'm sure it would show much more than 372 shots. the problem is, you can buy any camera from any supplier, use/test it for 14 days, then return it to the supplier with the guarantee papers unfilled, and you will get a refund. Someone must have used this privilege on the camera you acquired. On this and other Leica forums, there are always stories about someone buying an expensive lens, not liking the results, and then returning the item. Only a couple of days ago, someone posted photos with the 50 AA but decided to return the lens. I am sure the next buyer will get a very expensive used lens sold to him as new. I think there is a moral dilemma here. Difficult to answer who is right.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

  12. #12
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Dyserth, North Wales
    Posts
    9
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    It gets (slightly) worse. Apparently the Unique image ID that Opanda shows is in hex format so the actual shutter count is 886!

  13. #13
    Senior Member dude163's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    New Brunswick , Canada
    Posts
    1,111
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Yes the data is in Hex , 886 is unacceptable IMO, Id return it , unless they give you a free CLA and knock off a substantial chunk of the price

  14. #14
    Subscriber and Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,793
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    I have hesitated to comment on this thread but....

    You have the object of your long desire and it turns out you are its second love...IF you are correct that others have been using it. Highly likely if the shutter count is correct.

    Otherwise, what defects appear on the camera?

    If the lens mount is clear no scratches on the screen or body and it functions appropriately you may not gain a lot in getting a new camera...no way to know if the next new camera may not malfunction the day after your warranty expires....

    I would suggest that you slow down look at the camera and decide if it works for you...not as an object of desire but as a camera you can shoot with abandon, learn a lot about RF photography and in the end capture all those moments that will supercede the importance of its acquisition.

    New camera would look like this after a short period of time...dirty sensor, a bit of wear....

    My take would be to notify the dealer that the rose seems a bit dusted and then to trust Solms to make any problem right....find another dealer for the future but if this camera is functioning correctly at 800 shutter actuations more than likely it will at 10,000.....your new purchase was for two things...and object of desire and a warranty. Seems you have both.

    My first M body was purchased 31 years ago....I will probably have a few more before I am called home.

    Reminds me of Sheldon Vanauken's book A Severe Mercy....he and his wife purchased a new MG car...took a small hammer out to it and both took a swing at the bumper so they could never blame the other for the first dent....(p. 33).

    I would like you be unhappy about the discovery of 800 actuations and a dirty sensor...this has happened to may a couple of times and subsequently I have purchased demo models as I realized that if the camera is under warranty from Solms I have a fall-back. My Leica S2-P was a demo and IS one of the best cameras I have ever owned.

    The short version of this is if you are happy with the output of the M9 in you possession there is nothing to guarantee that a (NEW) M9 will do as well or be less problematic over the term that you own it. I am aware that this flies in the face of all the other posts but a sober reflection of what you gain by returning the camera may be worth you while.

    Best luck with whatever course you choose....

    Bob

  15. #15
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,497
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Used cameras at new prices...

    Not thinking that is going to make customers happy. But what does an M9 cost anyway?

  16. #16
    Subscriber and Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,793
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Not sure I would define this as a used camera....

    But if the dealer is approachable I would probably hit him or her up for an extended one year warranty.....290 Euro is an inexpensive way for him to keep a customer.....

    Bob

  17. #17
    Senior Member edwardkaraa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Bangkok
    Posts
    1,470
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    It happened to me both ways before. I have purchased a new lens from a reputable online vendor, and upon receipt realized that while practically new, it showed signs that it has been "tried" by someone else previously. The signs are unmistakable, slightly worn box, slight marks on the lens mount, barrel... etc. Nothing that I wouldn't cause myself in one week of ownership, but still for the principle I contacted the vendor, and they gave me a substantial discount on my next purchase. The same lens turned out to be front focusing later on. It was returned to Zeiss for calibration and cost me quite a bit of extra expenses, but to be fair, another lens that I received directly from Oberkochen, also front focused, and cost me the same to have it adjusted under warranty.

    On the other hand, I have bought another lens from another supplier, and was not happy with the wide open performance. They sent me another copy to compare it to, and behaved actually worse. The vendor said it was within this lens acceptable performance. I disagreed, and returned both for a refund. Now I am sure both lenses were subsequently sold as new to other clients. I was very careful not to cause any marks, but the lenses have been mounted on my camera at least 10 times each to do the comparisons. Not sure if they still can be considered as new, but certainly as a buyer, I will be unhappy if I pay the full price for a new lens that has been tested by another client earlier and found below specs.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

  18. #18
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,497
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Quote Originally Posted by edwardkaraa View Post
    Not sure if they still can be considered as new, but certainly as a buyer, I will be unhappy if I pay the full price for a new lens that has been tested by another client earlier and found below specs.
    To be fair, the wide open performance was found to be under what you personally considered acceptable. That has nothing to do with specifications.

  19. #19
    Senior Member edwardkaraa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Bangkok
    Posts
    1,470
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    To be fair, the wide open performance was found to be under what you personally considered acceptable. That has nothing to do with specifications.
    True, but I got two lenses to compare and one was way worse than the other, and both were judged as within specs by the vendor, after inspecting my test shots.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    475
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    When vendors offer 14-day no-questions-asked returns, somebody is going to receive those returns as new products. The vendor is certainly not going to throw them out, or sell them as used.

    - Leigh

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    475
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Quote Originally Posted by edwardkaraa View Post
    True, but I got two lenses to compare and one was way worse than the other, and both were judged as within specs by the vendor, after inspecting my test shots.
    How do you know the worse lens was not in spec?
    Perhaps the other lens was just unusually good.

    Do you have the manufacturer's specs, and the equipment required to test your lens to those specs?...
    And do you know how to use that equipment?

    - Leigh

  22. #22
    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,265
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Ed, do you have a link to the 50AA thread?
    It would be much appreciated.

  23. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Whilst agreeing with the impeccable logic of Bob's above .. as soon as a box is opened - irrespective of reason it becomes a DEMO item subject to significantly lower pricing in my book.

    I take personal delivery of every new Leica item M item I ever purchase and make it clear to the dealer I use down here in OZ that I will not buy - even if the outer box (grey) has been opened..

    IF it has been opened it is a 'demo' items immediately as AFIC

    and appropriately in those circumstances, I'd rather have the 'call' on wether to negotiate the price down of a demo item - irrespective of circumstance - every time.

    I have no doubt that the Leica warranty if I decide to purchase will cover any significant issue found - but I ill have paid a lower price for the privilege.

    If I by something new and I find an issue - at least I know the issue occurred at the factory - and not in someone else's poor handling ...I have removed a risk - or been compensated for taking on an unwelcome risk.

    Anyway maybe my perspective and logic is due to the fact that arbitrage is a big part of how I earn my living..
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  24. #24
    Senior Member edwardkaraa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Bangkok
    Posts
    1,470
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    Ed, do you have a link to the 50AA thread?
    It would be much appreciated.
    Sent you a PM Dan.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

  25. #25
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Prescott, Arizona
    Posts
    4,492
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    367

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Quote Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
    How do you know the worse lens was not in spec?
    Perhaps the other lens was just unusually good.

    Do you have the manufacturer's specs, and the equipment required to test your lens to those specs?...
    And do you know how to use that equipment?

    - Leigh
    The "try-and-return" game is an old practice performed by many photographers seeking the best copy they can find.
    But that has nothing to do with specs or measurement equipment, it has to do with satisfaction with the final results.
    I have found that especially with lenses that have mechanical couplings for focus such as Leica M, there is a factor beyond optical performance that enters into the game, and that is the accuracy of that particular focusing cam with that particular lens. Believe me, I have swapped lenses with another photographer and we both achieved better results.
    -bob

  26. #26
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,801
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    The dust bunnies on a new M9 aren't really too much of a concern. When I got all of my M8's & M9 they all needed a clean even though they were most definitely brand new and untouched by any other buyer than me.

    However, the 800+ shutter actuation and exposure comp setting suggest that this is a return of some type and shouldn't be sold as new. I consider a new vs tried/test/returned body somewhat differently than a lens. It shouldn't be sold as new.

    With lenses it's a bit more of a double standard I think. It would be hard for those folks who get glass and try & return to be upset that they'd received a lens that had been opened and used before (although obviously in BNIB condition!) - you really can't have it both ways unless of course you feel that getting a tested lens is some other poor guy's problem. Double standard. Bad karma on you.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  27. #27
    Senior Member edwardkaraa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Bangkok
    Posts
    1,470
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    If it wasn't obvious from my earlier posts, I am totally against this ridiculous 14 days return policy. There should be questions asked. If the product has a defect, it should be exchanged, and the faulty piece returned to the manufacturer. I know people who order an item they can't afford, play with it for a few days, and then return it. Also the cherry picking mentioned by Bob, people order 3 copies of the same lens, choose the best copy and return the other 2. Not very fair for the next in line.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

  28. #28
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Prescott, Arizona
    Posts
    4,492
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    367

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Quote Originally Posted by edwardkaraa View Post
    If it wasn't obvious from my earlier posts, I am totally against this ridiculous 14 days return policy. There should be questions asked. If the product has a defect, it should be exchanged, and the faulty piece returned to the manufacturer. I know people who order an item they can't afford, play with it for a few days, and then return it. Also the cherry picking mentioned by Bob, people order 3 copies of the same lens, choose the best copy and return the other 2. Not very fair for the next in line.
    I think that cherry picking is a fine and sometimes necessary sport when buying used equipment.
    On the new side of things, If the manufacturers actually produced consistently high quality, there would be no temptation. The problem is that for a significant portion of photographers, what for the manufacturer is "good enough" is just not "good enough". But I agree with stuff like cameras, I expect new to be absolutely fresh, and for lenses, since I am a lens whore, I tend to buy used when I can and seek the best I can find. With used lenses, you never know why the lenses were placed on the market. I am convinced that sometimes, based on some of the copies I have seen, that the seller got himself a better copy
    -bob

  29. #29
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    3,672
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Anecdotal evidence has taught me that not every new lens returned to a store can be labeled a subpar sample nor that used lenses sold are being put on the market, simply in that they are inferior to another sample of the same lens (other than the seller would like to fund some other piece of equipment). I believe there are way too many factors to make generlizations.

    I once ordered a highly touted "new" 3rd party lens from a very well know reputable mail order/brick & mortar store. What I received was a lens that by anyone's standards was "quite heavily" handled much like a store demo and even looked used...fingerprints over the entire lens (who's finish was known to affix dust and fingerprints), plastic bag stuffed below cardboard packaging, which had also been mangled. Lets say it was a sample that wouldn't even pass the E+ cosmetic rating of a new lens. I needed it for a weekend endeavor, so I had no choice but to use it. In all respects it was perfect, optically and mechanically...most notably optically. Subsequenty over time I had a chance to extensively compare this sample against 3 other samples of the same lens and in all honesty, performance between mine and the other 3 wasn't even close, as my initial copy performed head and shoulders above the other 3.....especially in the critical range it was designed for. The other 3 performed similarly to each other, except for minor differences. Go figure!

    Alternatively, sometimes testing multiple samples of a given used lens is necessary for certain applications, even when all the samples may be well within specs of what the lens was designed for. For example, I was shooting Pentax 645 film at the time I aquired the 645D digital body. Similar "exceptional" copies of the same lens that perfomed nearly identical on the 645 film body and obviously would have been excellent samples to use on film (and were all designed and manufactured and tested in the film era), unfortunately didn't perform well on the 645D. Often times only one of these samples was adaquate when used in conjunction with a digital sensor. This was the case with many of their lenses (even when critical Af fine tune was determined for each on the 645D). So with certain systems, often times a lens or a given sample of a lens designed in the film era can be well within specs in terms of performance with film, but not be up to par, when used on a digital body.

    I know I've gotten somewhat off topic with regards to this thread. With bodies that are returned but sold as new, this is often different than a returned lens in some respects. As with my example cited above, where the product one receives may not be "new" as described, if it's performing flawlessly, then I would think at the very least the buyer should be given the option to either 1) exchange for an un-opened one, 2) some mutually agreeable compensation or 3) returned for a refund. Tough call to make.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 3rd February 2013 at 15:08.

  30. #30
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,497
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Whilst agreeing with the impeccable logic of Bob's above .. as soon as a box is opened - irrespective of reason it becomes a DEMO item subject to significantly lower pricing in my book.
    How can a store survive? They may want to put an item on display and can't afford to downgrade all display to demo or even afford to carry two with one as a display. Sorry, an opened box is not an issue nor is it a demo, which is a something that is used.

  31. #31
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,497
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    On the new side of things, If the manufacturers actually produced consistently high quality, there would be no temptation.
    But who could afford it? And to whose definition of "high-quality"? There are some who will never be pleased with anything but perfection--something that can never be achieved. The fact is, manufacturers do an extremely good job of producing high-quality optics at very good prices, very picky customers with too high expectations aside.

  32. #32
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Dyserth, North Wales
    Posts
    9
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Thanks for all the very helpful feedback and advice. The advice from docmoore resonates with me - I am not a collector but a user and I did trawl EBay/Forums etc for a good used deal but the prices that people are anticipating for their used M9's is frankly crazy so i went for a new version. I was disappointed that the store felt that I would not notice that it had been used and 886 activations to be sold as new is just plain wrong.

    I will see what they say to me tomorrow. I am open minded and if the offers right for me then I'll go with that else return the item for a refund. I'll keep you posted.....

  33. #33
    Subscriber and Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,793
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    I think that is a reasoned and reasonable approach.

    I must admit that I have had a 15 year plus relationship with a great dealer so I tend to look on the positive side in most cases. If this dealer drops the ball look around...at this level someone you can trust and rely on is a major deal.

    If however they make it right you may have established a long term relationship that will serve you well in the future. I have to say that I am a bit jealous of your location and know that you do not have a shop on every other corner...but what potential for landscapes!

    There have been a lot of very sound suggestions here...please keep us informed of your decision...and congratulations on the choice of camera...whether it is this one or a replacement.

    Regards,

    Bob
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  34. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    How can a store survive? They may want to put an item on display and can't afford to downgrade all display to demo or even afford to carry two with one as a display. Sorry, an opened box is not an issue nor is it a demo, which is a something that is used.

    That is the wonderful thing about a market - your definition of what is and what isn't acceptable is different to mine. I do not compel you to accept my standards and all I ask in return ( I don't really ask - I do) is the same consideration.

    I do not find it acceptable that client A is allowed to roam freely through so called new inventory and pick and choose according to their own criteria what they will and wont buy - and meanwhile Client B has to suffer the inequity of buying an item that has been previously tested/tried/fondled ( you pick the adjective) and then priced as if it hasn't been.

    If a product lacks quality control - then customers wont buy it. I don't need a customer to be his or her own quality control expert - at my cost. So if something has lost its packaged 'virginity' - it should not be priced as a new unused product - it should be priced as a demo product.

  35. #35
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,497
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    That is the wonderful thing about a market - your definition of what is and what isn't acceptable is different to mine. I do not compel you to accept my standards and all I ask in return ( I don't really ask - I do) is the same consideration.

    I do not find it acceptable that client A is allowed to roam freely through so called new inventory and pick and choose according to their own criteria what they will and wont buy - and meanwhile Client B has to suffer the inequity of buying an item that has been previously tested/tried/fondled ( you pick the adjective) and then priced as if it hasn't been.

    If a product lacks quality control - then customers wont buy it. I don't need a customer to be his or her own quality control expert - at my cost. So if something has lost its packaged 'virginity' - it should not be priced as a new unused product - it should be priced as a demo product.
    I do not disagree with a product that has left the shop with a customer and it has been used. But an open box is not an indication the product was used as a demo or anything else--the act of opening a box does not mean a product is used. You are welcome to define what you will buy at any personal level and I am happy to disagree.

  36. #36
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Prescott, Arizona
    Posts
    4,492
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    367

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    See, I have this thing about prime serial numbers, and will sort through any number to find one
    -bob

  37. #37
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    475
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Stores used to assess a "re-stocking charge". If a customer returned new merchandise for a refund without a good reason, that charge was deducted from the refund, and also deducted from the resale price of the goods.

    That seems like a very equitable arrangement, and discourages cherry picking.

    For some reason it's gone out of favor.

    - Leigh

  38. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    475
    Post Thanks / Like

    Wink Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    See, I have this thing about prime serial numbers, and will sort through any number to find one
    So how much time have you expended calculating eight- or nine-digit prime numbers???

    - Leigh

  39. #39
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Prescott, Arizona
    Posts
    4,492
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    367

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Quote Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
    So how much time have you expended calculating eight- or nine-digit prime numbers???

    - Leigh
    Already done for me
    Table of Primes from 1 to 1 000 000 000 000
    -bob

  40. #40
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    475
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    That's cheating.

    - Leigh

  41. #41
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Dyserth, North Wales
    Posts
    9
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    I have just received this email from the dealer:-

    "Thank you for contacting us. As far as we are aware, the M9 that was sent to you was a brand new version. However, the issues that you have noted seem to be consistent with an M9 display model. Unfortunately, the only M9's we have left in stock are in grey. I'd be happy to exchange this for you if a grey version is suitable? Alternatively, we can arrange collection and offer you a refund on the M9 black. Please don’t hesitate to contact us if you would like to discuss this further."

    So I rang them and spoke to the writer of the email who was very apologetic. I believe that it was a genuine mistake on their part as they have nine stores and obviously some sort of central warehousing so they could have unwittingly sent me a used version.

    I have decided that I will wait for the new M instead and because of the good service I've received, I will be buying the M from them with the confidence that if something does go wrong they will be there to help.

    I am also now more than happy to give their name out - "Thank you" Wilkinsons Camera, Preston, England
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  42. #42
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Prescott, Arizona
    Posts
    4,492
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    367

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Excellent news!
    -bob

  43. #43
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    3,672
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Today should have been a good day but....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Excellent news!
    -bob
    Alun, yes excellent news indeed and glad you were able to get it resolved in a fashion that instills confidence to purchase again from them in the future.

    On a seperate note, Bob I thought the only lenses serial #'s that really matter are the ones that comprise of only zero's with a single digit of "1" at the end . At least that's what Leica collectors say...LOL!

    Dave (D&A)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •