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Thread: New M files available from Jono

  1. #51
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Jono,

    What a gift for the Leica community here and worldwide...your input is always respected and your vision and execution as always...flawless.

    Like most here it is nice to say that I am distantly acquainted with the photographer who has represented Leica with multiple camera releases so well.
    Looks like a great new Leica M ... but I have not seen a camera do poorly in your hands....

    My favorite of the present pictures is that of Emma and Caspar.

    Awaiting your writeup when the time is right.

    Regards,

    Bob
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    The point on the magenta coat is that it looks exactly like the type of IR contamination we had with the M8 ...not like a tint calibration . Its one of those things that will show up in black fabrics . I can t find anywhere that Jono commented on this .
    Hi Roger,

    Here:

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/487534-post18.html

    Bob
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    The point on the magenta coat is that it looks exactly like the type of IR contamination we had with the M8 ...not like a tint calibration . Its one of those things that will show up in black fabrics . I can t find anywhere that Jono commented on this .

    I think he commented on LUF on this particular point.
    Answer: Leica User Forum - Einzelnen Beitrag anzeigen - The REAL M-240 sample images - congrats to Jono Slack

    K-H.

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Paul
    quick off the mark! The young lady will be very pleased with your remark (it's my wife) - the jacket is purply/blue, the IR is pretty much exactly the same as the M9 - certainly no worse - so - there is a light effect with some acrylic materials.
    xx

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Hi Roger, his answer is in post 18, cut and pasted here for simplicity,

    All the best,
    Dave

    "Hi Paul
    quick off the mark! The young lady will be very pleased with your remark (it's my wife) - the jacket is purply/blue, the IR is pretty much exactly the same as the M9 - certainly no worse - so - there is a light effect with some acrylic materials. "
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Paul
    quick off the mark! The young lady will be very pleased with your remark (it's my wife) - the jacket is purply/blue, the IR is pretty much exactly the same as the M9 - certainly no worse - so - there is a light effect with some acrylic materials.
    Jono ... Thanks for clarifying that, I was a bit surprised when I saw it ... the purple I mean, of course, I'm not surprised how young your wife looks ... photographers always seem to have younger wives and also seem to live to a ripe old age. There's a connection there I'm sure.

    Congratulations on another fine set of images! Leica have chosen wisely!

    Paul
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Thanks for all the references back to the question about the coat . In fact I did miss it .

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Went thru the additional Leica proof files (available on the Leica website) and focused on the high ISO images 3200 and 6400. Both I feel are excellent and at the "state of the market" ...probably behind Nikon if you compare similar sized files (23mp verse 36mp) and consider that the D3S/D4 is really a different market .

    Evenness of the lighting plays a factor (good light at 3200 is different than a night shot at 3200) ..the loss of DR and color desaturation is there at 6400 and the under exposed shadows are mushy as you might expect . The Leica proofs are good samples and working them in LR4 shows their potential.

    For street work ISO1600 is normally enough with a fast lens and its the DR to cover the -2EV drop in the shadows that too often kills a photograph . Thats my criteria ..yours may differ ....but its the basis for my POV.

    Thumbs up to Leica for getting this one right ..it excels at base ISO and ramps up to 3200 very nicely . This also translates back into improved DR and color saturation at middle ISO levels .....so you may not need 3200 but you can enjoy a much cleaner ISO 400 and 800 than we have on the M9 .
    Roger Dunham
    http://rogerdunham.com/
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Jono,

    Great thanks for the images!

    Roger,

    Thanks for your comments, especially the application for street photography. On the mark!

    R
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Went thru the additional Leica proof files (available on the Leica website) and focused on the high ISO images 3200 and 6400. Both I feel are excellent and at the "state of the market" ...probably behind Nikon if you compare similar sized files (23mp verse 36mp) and consider that the D3S/D4 is really a different market .

    Evenness of the lighting plays a factor (good light at 3200 is different than a night shot at 3200) ..the loss of DR and color desaturation is there at 6400 and the under exposed shadows are mushy as you might expect . The Leica proofs are good samples and working them in LR4 shows their potential.

    For street work ISO1600 is normally enough with a fast lens and its the DR to cover the -2EV drop in the shadows that too often kills a photograph . Thats my criteria ..yours may differ ....but its the basis for my POV.

    Thumbs up to Leica for getting this one right ..it excels at base ISO and ramps up to 3200 very nicely . This also translates back into improved DR and color saturation at middle ISO levels .....so you may not need 3200 but you can enjoy a much cleaner ISO 400 and 800 than we have on the M9 .
    Jono, thanks for taking the time to answer all the questions.

    Roger, I fully agree with your analysis on high ISO and street photograph. I am looking forward to the new M when time comes.
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    I have been playing around some with the images. IMO they work out very well with simple editing in LR4. (And that, of course, will only get better with newer Leica firmware and provision the appropriate LR specifications for this camera.) I'm glad I waited for the M. Now the hard part--getting one!

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    I have been pretty vocal in my criticism of Leica for not releasing any samples or updates in the nearly five months since Photokina. And while I disagree with the marketing strategy I must say that these images are exactly what everyone has been waiting for. Well done.

    I will still be waiting to purchase a new M240 until I feel that a reasonably large sample has shipped and been proven reliable, and to let the frenzy die down (while I continue to happily click away with my trusty M9), but I now feel much more optimistic that Leica are moving in the right direction.

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    The new information provided was in the form of DNG files . You could assume that the intent was to allow potential buyers or just interested photographers to compare . Compare to what ? In my case I use 3 systems ..the M9 ,the D800e and the Leica S2 all with Leica lenses .

    Comparing the files provides insights in the potential IQ that can be obtained from the new M . CCD verse CMOS has been the big question. IMHO comparing the D800E provides a good look at Leica glass on CMOS .

    Anyone can fall back on ..only when I have the camera using my lenses on my favorite subjects will I know anything . If so why bother to participate ?
    Roger,

    I don't believe in the "compare every little bit to the point of absurdity" aesthetic. I don't think it's a productive way to understand a camera. If you do, fine: I'm not opposed to others enjoying their hobbies.

    I've downloaded and looked at all the supplied samples now, and what they tell me is that I have no issues with the imaging capabilities of the camera. Samples just give you a keyhole idea of what to expect, nothing more or less. The way to understand what the M can do beyond that is to buy one and make a few thousand photos with it with lenses that you already know.

    The CMOS vs CCD stuff is way overblown IMO. Yes, the technology has an impact on the imaging potential of a sensor, but the tuning of a particular imager through the base hardware that moves the data to a raw format file, and the image processing that happens on top of that, has a FAR greater impact. The pixel density and the strength of the AA filter are much bigger impacts on imaging performance.

    The D800E sensor is quite different from the CMOSIS sensor in the M, both in pixel density and in micro-lens design. Comparing them tells me very little, and is mostly not relevant to my interests in the new M anyway as I have no intention whatsoever in buying into a Nikon D800 and lens system. I'm glad you enjoy using three systems ...

    I wanted to articulate what *I'm* interested to know about the new M beyond just what its sensor does. I'm certain the sensor is up to snuff for my needs: I want to know how it improves on the M9 as a camera in use. That's what's important to me. Is that not allowed in your world?

    G

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by StephenPatterson View Post
    I have been pretty vocal in my criticism of Leica for not releasing any samples or updates in the nearly five months since Photokina.
    Can you blame them? People are nitpicking now and the firmware is almost final, if not final. (If I were Leica, I would let you see samples right after you bought a camera.) Besides, releasing samples before releasing the product is not very useful--it is not like you can buy the camera. Why not simply wait so you can judge the actual output--anything else makes no sense.

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Can you blame them? People are nitpicking now and the firmware is almost final, if not final. (If I were Leica, I would let you see samples right after you bought a camera.) Besides, releasing samples before releasing the product is not very useful--it is not like you can buy the camera. Why not simply wait so you can judge the actual output--anything else makes no sense.
    I agree completely. Releasing image samples long before the camera is finished is a waste of time for both the company and the users.

    G

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Can you blame them? People are nitpicking now and the firmware is almost final, if not final. (If I were Leica, I would let you see samples right after you bought a camera.) Besides, releasing samples before releasing the product is not very useful--it is not like you can buy the camera. Why not simply wait so you can judge the actual output--anything else makes no sense.
    Hi There
    Well - I feel just the same as you - and as the recipient of jibes on various other fora (not this one) I might say that it's a bit of a trial for the photographer as well! (no complaint - it comes with the territory).
    On the other hand I feel that the exercise has been useful, and that more people are pleased than otherwise (and perhaps those not pleased didn't want to be!).

    Quote Originally Posted by StephenPatterson View Post
    I have been pretty vocal in my criticism of Leica for not releasing any samples or updates in the nearly five months since Photokina. And while I disagree with the marketing strategy I must say that these images are exactly what everyone has been waiting for. Well done.
    Ah! Stephen - you make me feel that the whole exercise was worthwhile (seriously!) -
    Wouldn't it be nice if it were as thin as an M6? . . . . yes it would . . . .
    Wouldn't it be nice if it was as quiet as an M6? . . . .. no it wouldn't
    We did a proper blind (well the ladies had their eyes shut) of objective shutter noise, and everybody not holding the camera thought that the M(240) was quieter than the M6 (hooray?)

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Thumbs up to Leica for getting this one right ..it excels at base ISO and ramps up to 3200 very nicely . This also translates back into improved DR and color saturation at middle ISO levels .....so you may not need 3200 but you can enjoy a much cleaner ISO 400 and 800 than we have on the M9 .
    Hi Roger - I quite agree -


    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I wanted to articulate what *I'm* interested to know about the new M beyond just what its sensor does. I'm certain the sensor is up to snuff for my needs: I want to know how it improves on the M9 as a camera in use. That's what's important to me. Is that not allowed in your world?

    G
    Hi Godfrey - I really appreciate your comments - I quite agree, samples are almost useless - I can only tell you how it improves on the M9 as a camera in use - The best thing I can say is that it's easy to get used to the new M - ergonomically and functionally - and rather tiresome going back to the M9 (for 20 minutes or so). I'd have put the play button above the LV button, but other than that it really works well - familiar and better.

    all the best

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Yes I can blame Leica for yet another (what is this four in a row ) major new release fiasco. Did they lose the date for Photokina ..again . Got my first CS lens this week !

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Can you blame them? People are nitpicking now and the firmware is almost final, if not final. (If I were Leica, I would let you see samples right after you bought a camera.) Besides, releasing samples before releasing the product is not very useful--it is not like you can buy the camera. Why not simply wait so you can judge the actual output--anything else makes no sense.
    As I posted before "No news is never good news", because it causes people to worry. It's obvious now that Leica could have released at least a few larger jpegs months ago that would have quelled fears and generated excitement instead of the worry and hair pulling created by the leaked images. Sure the images might not have been the final firmware version, but releasing something from a professional photographer who knows about light, composition (and how to focus) could only have helped Leica.

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Well, let me tell you for whom the sample images are useful. ME. Having never owned a Leica, I am more than a little nervous about plunking down that kind of money for a 35 mm camera albeit full frame. And, even knowing Jono is a terrific photographer, it is useful to see his shots, hear his experiences, and all the comments of those who have spoken here. I agree it is not wise to choose a camera on the basis of pre-release photos or comments, but it becomes one of many factors used to judge whether I should purchase one. I have been on a waiting list for a long time and have been second guessing my decision ever since.

    One of my concerns is the use of DNG with which I have never had much skill. Having used a 22 megapixel medium format CCD, I am not sure how the 24 megapixel CMOS sensor will stack up. Focusing also gives me pause for concern, but somehow I was able to focus the Hasselblad 500 C/M with some proficiency. Time will tell.

    Greg
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    When the M9 came out, I had a wow-feeling regarding the image quality. Back then, the value proposition was that you get something special for the 7-8k a comparably high resolution CCD sensor that nobody else has with very high acutance. But now I have the feeling, when looking at the value for money, that I get standard DSLR quality in a nice package, nothing more.

    If you look at the samples of the new sigma DP3 how can M images still amaze?
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    When the M9 came out, I had a wow-feeling regarding the image quality. Back then, the value proposition was that you get something special for the 7-8k a comparably high resolution CCD sensor that nobody else has with very high acutance. But now I have the feeling, when looking at the value for money, that I get standard DSLR quality in a nice package, nothing more.

    If you look at the samples of the new sigma DP3 how can M images still amaze?
    Two different markets and targets. I don't think most are willing to give up their Noctilux, Summilux, Summicron, Summarits, Elmarits, Elmars, or whatever exotic, and sometimes old, glass for a really nice P&S camera. Don't take it as an insult, condescending tone, or "Leica snobbery." Some people just have their preference of tool. Kinda like wondering why a Canon guy doesn't shoot Nikon. He/She is invested in the system that they liked the best and could afford.
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    When the M9 came out, I had a wow-feeling regarding the image quality. Back then, the value proposition was that you get something special for the 7-8k a comparably high resolution CCD sensor that nobody else has with very high acutance. But now I have the feeling, when looking at the value for money, that I get standard DSLR quality in a nice package, nothing more.

    If you look at the samples of the new sigma DP3 how can M images still amaze?
    You don't get use of all the delightful M-bayonet mount lenses on either a DSLR or a Sigma DP3. You also don't get a rangefinder, or the ergonomics in use of a Leica M. Is this not worth something to you? There are NO other digital rangefinder cameras being produced in the world today, and the new M has its very own new and highly-optimized, customized sensor. Is this not something "unique enough"?

    Even if the sensor is a CMOS sensor, it certainly ISN'T the same sensor as in any DSLR. Nor is the sensor calibration the same, etc, etc.

    I've heard these same disparagements of Leica M cameras based on their price since I first started doing photography in the late 1960s. "Why should I spend all that money for a Leica M when a Nikon/Canon/Pentax/Olympus/Whateverix does the same job?" My response has always been, "If you believe that, you shouldn't spend the money for a Leica M."

    Same thing today.

    G
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I've heard these same disparagements of Leica M cameras based on their price since I first started doing photography in the late 1960s. "Why should I spend all that money for a Leica M when a Nikon/Canon/Pentax/Olympus/Whateverix does the same job?" My response has always been, "If you believe that, you shouldn't spend the money for a Leica M."

    Same thing today.

    G
    Exactly!

    For decades Leica film cameras used the same "films" that you could use on cheap point and shoot 35mm camera. Leica didn't have any special film that only Leica had access too. Now, we have sensors instead of film. The differing factor with Leica vs. the other cams are that it's a rangefinder, and that it's the only way to use M-glass as it was fully intended.
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by jstaben View Post
    Exactly!

    For decades Leica film cameras used the same "films" that you could use on cheap point and shoot 35mm camera. Leica didn't have any special film that only Leica had access too. Now, we have sensors instead of film. The differing factor with Leica vs. the other cams are that it's a rangefinder, and that it's the only way to use M-glass as it was fully intended.
    I like your point sir. The difference between high end and low end 35mm sensors being narrower than ever, in most 'viewing' scenarios, we are now free of the the technical constraint of MegaPixels and can simply use the tools we enjoy most.
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by jstaben View Post
    Exactly!

    For decades Leica film cameras used the same "films" that you could use on cheap point and shoot 35mm camera. Leica didn't have any special film that only Leica had access too. Now, we have sensors instead of film. The differing factor with Leica vs. the other cams are that it's a rangefinder, and that it's the only way to use M-glass as it was fully intended.
    Excellent
    So the question is only
    is the new sensor good enough to do justice to Leica lenses?
    . . . and the answer is a resounding YES! (Well, in my very humble opinion!)

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    When the M9 came out, I had a wow-feeling regarding the image quality. Back then, the value proposition was that you get something special for the 7-8k a comparably high resolution CCD sensor that nobody else has with very high acutance. But now I have the feeling, when looking at the value for money, that I get standard DSLR quality in a nice package, nothing more.

    If you look at the samples of the new sigma DP3 how can M images still amaze?
    The CCD sensor is still there and the iq is still as good as ever. You can keep your M9 and add an ME if you need a new body.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    When the M9 came out, I had a wow-feeling regarding the image quality. Back then, the value proposition was that you get something special for the 7-8k a comparably high resolution CCD sensor that nobody else has with very high acutance. But now I have the feeling, when looking at the value for money, that I get standard DSLR quality in a nice package, nothing more.

    If you look at the samples of the new sigma DP3 how can M images still amaze?
    I know what you mean. I would prefer the old CCD with more noise and less DR. I hate that the new M is going to have image quality on par with the 35mm sensors in DSLRs. Those sensor only have the best performance of any sensors out there. I want something worse. Imagine if someone confused one of my pictures with something from a D600, A99, RX-1, D4, or any of the top cameras today. OMG, how embarrassing.

    I am going to go and see my boss tomorrow and demand a pay cut and an increase in my working hours!
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I know what you mean. I would prefer the old CCD with more noise and less DR. I hate that the new M is going to have image quality on par with the 35mm sensors in DSLRs. Those sensor only have the best performance of any sensors out there. I want something worse. Imagine if someone confused one of my pictures with something from a D600, A99, RX-1, D4, or any of the top cameras today. OMG, how embarrassing.

    I am going to go and see my boss tomorrow and demand a pay cut and an increase in my working hours!
    This post is just out of line . Since I started the thread I will take the heat for pointing it out . There is huge difference in taking a different opinion and supporting it with evidence ..either anecdotal or with illustrations .

    If you think the differences between CCD and CMOS are hard to see in practical use ...could you just say that . Instead of belittling the other persons POV .

    Not speaking to this post but debating others POV by making condescending statements about that reflect poorly on others ..just doesn t get it in my world .
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I know what you mean. I would prefer the old CCD with more noise and less DR. I hate that the new M is going to have image quality on par with the 35mm sensors in DSLRs. Those sensor only have the best performance of any sensors out there. I want something worse. Imagine if someone confused one of my pictures with something from a D600, A99, RX-1, D4, or any of the top cameras today. OMG, how embarrassing.

    I am going to go and see my boss tomorrow and demand a pay cut and an increase in my working hours!
    Please take into account the eye of the beholder and all that. Personally, I do not see any current 35mm DSLR that has the look and feel of the M9 ... so best sensors is highly subjective ... unless this has become ALL science and subjective creative preferences no longer weigh in.

    Subjectively, I think all these 35mm sensors are becoming homogenized and MacDonalded ... (and I have a A99 you mentioned BTW).

    If the new M excels over the M9 in key personally needed attributes, then great! If it doesn't, well then that is great for M9 users.

    Wish we photographers would stop being such rabid shills for the camera companies. It's like throwing a chunk of meat to a pack of Hyenas, that then turn on each other.

    -Marc
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Shill for the camera companies?

    Um, my most recent acquisition is a ca. 1939 Robot Star II. Been curious about them for at least thirty years, now they're inexpensive enough to buy one for experimentation. $100 plus the inevitable $200 for a full CLA. High roller ...

    Expect to see true Monochrom image sequences soon. :-)

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Expect to see true Monochrom image sequences soon. :-)

    G
    That sounds promising...

    Bob

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Please take into account the eye of the beholder and all that. Personally, I do not see any current 35mm DSLR that has the look and feel of the M9 ... so best sensors is highly subjective ... unless this has become ALL science and subjective creative preferences no longer weigh in.

    Subjectively, I think all these 35mm sensors are becoming homogenized and MacDonalded ... (and I have a A99 you mentioned BTW).

    If the new M excels over the M9 in key personally needed attributes, then great! If it doesn't, well then that is great for M9 users.

    Wish we photographers would stop being such rabid shills for the camera companies. It's like throwing a chunk of meat to a pack of Hyenas, that then turn on each other.

    -Marc
    Marc, you are falling into the same trap Paul is--no one has been shooting with the new M. But the few that have, and very much Leica folks that have used an M9, are very impressed. The only thing I see now about the nostalgia of the M9 is just snobbery. You like the extra noise and lower DR of the M9, that is fine--it impacts the look. But to even claim that modern sensors are simply falling into mediocrity is a little silly.

    Ironically, I am getting tired of photographers bashing every new product that comes out, especially when there is no real data with which to judge (the point of my post, which I guess was lost). And whether you personally like the new M does not in fact make it anything than it will be, which is a fine camera. Beside, I often keep hearing it is the glass, not the sensor, that is the magic of Leica. Don't you want a sensor that can better reproduce the image off those lenses?

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Marc, you are falling into the same trap Paul is--no one has been shooting with the new M. But the few that have, and very much Leica folks that have used an M9, are very impressed. The only thing I see now about the nostalgia of the M9 is just snobbery. You like the extra noise and lower DR of the M9, that is fine--it impacts the look. But to even claim that modern sensors are simply falling into mediocrity is a little silly.

    Ironically, I am getting tired of photographers bashing every new product that comes out, especially when there is no real data with which to judge (the point of my post, which I guess was lost). And whether you personally like the new M does not in fact make it anything than it will be, which is a fine camera. Beside, I often keep hearing it is the glass, not the sensor, that is the magic of Leica. Don't you want a sensor that can better reproduce the image off those lenses?
    The only semi-bashing I am hearing is of the previous cameras, not the new one ... at least not from me since haven't used a M and cannot comment on whether something is lost in the gain elsewhere for my specific applications of a M camera. That other experienced M users find it excellent (all two of them so far), doesn't mean everyone will (depending on their creative needs and evaluation criteria of IQ).

    It also doesn't mean that I personally am not up for getting the new M, I placed my order upon announcement and haven't altered that as I watch the results form beta users get published. Plus, I do agree that IF it can make more of the M lenses in key areas of use, it is a good thing ... depending on which lenses.

    "Nostalgia of the M9" is an odd statement, since the new camera isn't even available. The only "nostalgia" some may be feeling is for their money The key question being, does one live with the M9, get their money's worth, and wait for the inevitable next M XXX that makes an even more obvious difference from the M9? That is a highly personal evaluation, not a collective one.

    Apparently, Leica even recognizes creative needs differ since they also are producing the ME ... which IMO they "uglied up" so as to not appear too attractive

    Again, calling someone else's personal take on the collective general state of 35mm CMOS sensors as being "silly", reduces and discounts any counter creative opinion. I personally still do not see any massive improvement in bodies of work due to 2 or 3 generations of sensor development ... incremental developments touted as milestones and breakthroughs. For example, IMO, the A99 made steps forward and some steps backward, depending on specific needs. Heck, there are some that still see the DMR as being special despite all its limitations and flaws ... so I believe there is room for the eccentric and path less traveled ... at least, for some photographers more resilient to bandwagon, specifications marketing.

    -Marc
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Subjectively, I think all these 35mm sensors are becoming homogenized and MacDonalded ...
    Exactly my thoughts.
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Hi Jono,
    thanks for the images and your efforts.
    In the end I did not really have doubts the M would deliver great IQ.

    I would be interested if you feel the new "M" still feels as simple and straight forward like the M9?
    Putting all that stuff (EVF or micro, or even big R-lenses) on the M does look still strange to me (but maybe I am just not used to it)
    Did it feel different?

    My feeling is to rather use an M with rangefinder and M lenses (maybe EVF for ultrawide, macro and the 135mm) but instead of using big R-lenses in manual mode with an EVF I would probably rather add a DSLR.

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    My feeling is to rather use an M with rangefinder and M lenses (maybe EVF for ultrawide, macro and the 135mm) but instead of using big R-lenses in manual mode with an EVF I would probably rather add a DSLR.
    Exactly my take as well. Use the M for what the M was always designed for and the EVF for situations when it really makes sense (low light, wide angles, Noctilux, 135mm) and otherwise buy a DSLR with fast continuous AF for situations like sports, wildlife, and where you need longer tele's.

    I still could not see a big use of an M with even with the best manual tele lenses for Safari

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Hi Jono,
    thanks for the images and your efforts.
    In the end I did not really have doubts the M would deliver great IQ.

    I would be interested if you feel the new "M" still feels as simple and straight forward like the M9?
    Putting all that stuff (EVF or micro, or even big R-lenses) on the M does look still strange to me (but maybe I am just not used to it)
    Did it feel different?
    If you want to shoot it like the M9 - then it feels better than the M9, but no less simple (they really have improved the ergonomics with the thumb-wheel/grip.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    My feeling is to rather use an M with rangefinder and M lenses (maybe EVF for ultrawide, macro and the 135mm) but instead of using big R-lenses in manual mode with an EVF I would probably rather add a DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Exactly my take as well. Use the M for what the M was always designed for and the EVF for situations when it really makes sense (low light, wide angles, Noctilux, 135mm) and otherwise buy a DSLR with fast continuous AF for situations like sports, wildlife, and where you need longer tele's.

    I still could not see a big use of an M with even with the best manual tele lenses for Safari
    Well, I do agree - it's certainly not the camera for sports - although I think it might be quite good for some forms of wildlife.

    I've had a lot of fun shooting with the 28-90 (especially) and the 80-200 - these are very good lenses - better (IMHO) than any I've seen with an AF dSLR. The same goes for macro - which works really well. Telephoto is also absolutely fine for static (or slow moving) objects.

    Handling is fine - even with big lenses - but the refresh rate and the slight blackout mean that it's not good for action.

    I tend to go out with the EVF stuck on the top (looks no weirder than any other VF) - but shoot mainly with the rangefinder - after all, that's what it's for! You can imagine that it works really well with the WATE - which becomes a proper zoom, but also with 21 and 24mm lenses and the 135 as well.

    My OMD is still firmly in place however (they compliment each other nicely)

    Is that helpful?

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by edwardkaraa View Post
    Exactly my thoughts.
    As related to what Marc said>>>"Subjectively, I think all these 35mm sensors are becoming homogenized and MacDonalded"<<<

    Similary, I often sometimes get that feeling with some of the current & recent M lens offerings. All superbly sharp, edge to edge, excellent contrast/micro contrast, "relative" similar looks from each of the major focal lengths (there are exceptions)...but in sense, with the reduction in aberations and great leaps in performance over previous generations of lenses, except for the focal length, many at times produce a very near identical image as the next.

    This is of course good at times and useful for many applications but in my opinion this sometimes/often results in a homoginzed look when shooting two or three of these lenses in an outing. Again this is just my opinion). Luckily in lenses we have a much easier time if we want to change a look. Just pick up a very different lens than the one being used, which is obviously easier than poping out one sensor and replacing it with another.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 8th February 2013 at 17:16.
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    This thread has degenerated into a series of just ridiculous comments regarding the opinions of others . Any thread that starts with "you just don t get it " isn t in the spirit of sharing POV and insights . E

    Look back at the intent ....Jono goes off for what weeks on 2-3 trips shooting the new M . Yes it preproduction and anyone that follows new camera introductions knows that both firmware and raw conversion software improve ..sometimes significantly . There is significant interest in the transition from CCD to CMOS by many (not all ) . Leica provides Jono s DNG s so that those interested may inspect them and try processing them . They also added in Chris Tribble s samples as well .

    The DNG s are the best available source of insights . I learned most everything I needed to know and reported my POV . Of course I want to know more and when I have an "M" I will test the heck out of it ..but at that point I will be committed to getting the very best I can out of it .

    I have plenty of experience with Leica M,DMR and S2 files as my shooting rate has been as high as 25K captures in a year . I do very similar trips to Jono and I have files to compare . I have also used or tested Leica glass on a variety of CMOS equipment from Canon/Nikon and Sony ..so I appreciate the aesthetic differences. The only point being that I have a basis for my comments that might be relevant for someone that shoots street or travel with a M .

    Jono while I very much appreciate both your efforts and your always good intentions ...I need to take issue with you statement that the DNG s provide little insight. I assume you had ample time to work with the camera and had a hand in which samples were selected . (I appreciate that its pre production thats a given . Just like with the S2 ..color gets better but noise ,DR etc really don t improve much . )

    It seems to go without saying that any photographer will learn more and appreciate the improvements ....when they can actually use the camera . Unfortunately most buying decisions will be based on anecdotal evidence and subjective observations ..otherwise you really can t get a new M anytime soon. Having the DNG was very helpful to me .

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by StephenPatterson View Post
    As I posted before "No news is never good news", because it causes people to worry. It's obvious now that Leica could have released at least a few larger jpegs months ago that would have quelled fears and generated excitement instead of the worry and hair pulling created by the leaked images. Sure the images might not have been the final firmware version, but releasing something from a professional photographer who knows about light, composition (and how to focus) could only have helped Leica.
    Worry about what? The camera won't be done until it hits mass production. Is a not very well working camera and samples released early going to quell the folks that worry? I don't see any damage to Leica and I am sure the M will be a success. BTW, you don't have to buy it. So if the camera is a bomb, it makes no difference in your life as you can simply keep using your M9. So why the worry?

    BTW, Jono did release some fine pictures and there are still lots of detractors (mostly making things up). I think people like to complain and worry. It is kind of like a rocking chair, it gives them something to do, but gets them nowhere. Leica release early samples would have just fanned the fires.

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Again, calling someone else's personal take on the collective general state of 35mm CMOS sensors as being "silly", reduces and discounts any counter creative opinion. I personally still do not see any massive improvement in bodies of work due to 2 or 3 generations of sensor development ... incremental developments touted as milestones and breakthroughs. For example, IMO, the A99 made steps forward and some steps backward, depending on specific needs. Heck, there are some that still see the DMR as being special despite all its limitations and flaws ... so I believe there is room for the eccentric and path less traveled ... at least, for some photographers more resilient to bandwagon, specifications marketing.

    -Marc
    So you don't want improvements to the 35mm sensors? I have no problem with people liking equipment and staying with it. I don't buy every new generation of camera--I hang on to camera for a long time. There is actually no reason to buy an M if you are completely satisfied with your M9 or any other camera. But when you buy a camera, don't you want the latest improvements? I hear lots of people moan when the camera companies are not perceive in doing that.

    This becomes a very interesting conversation, especially with Dave's post (D&A). I see no end of posts demanding perfection in their cameras and lenses. The camera companies are working hard to meet that. Now people are complaining that their equipment is too perfect!

    The funny thing is, the better the equipment comes, the more the results from that equipment get closer. That is how it should be. There is no difference in the light we see. Ideally, the system should give an accurate reproduction. As always, the photographer adds the flavor.

    But I think we can agree that the chorus of moaning that comes every time a new product comes out is just getting too much. I love photography. I don't care if it is wet plate or digital, from a cell phone, Holga, or IQ180. I love the new stuff and the old. Each process, each incarnation adds something. Look at a copy of the World History of Photography. While it spans all of the technical achievements in technology, the quality of the photography always remains high.

    The new M is coming. I am excited and happy for the release--I am not going to buy one (in fact, no one has to buy one, although it sounds like Leica just took away the M9 owner's birthdays). I am happy about that. I am happy that they are pushing the quality. It is one more tool we have to create with. What is there not to celebrate?

    (BTW, there is no reason you need to sell your M9 and I would not expect anyone to sell their camera just because a new comes out.)

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Jono while I very much appreciate both your efforts and your always good intentions ...I need to take issue with you statement that the DNG s provide little insight. I assume you had ample time to work with the camera and had a hand in which samples were selected . (I appreciate that its pre production thats a given . Just like with the S2 ..color gets better but noise ,DR etc really don t improve much . )
    Hi Roger
    Did I say that? What a load of rubbish - it was probably late .
    I think the DNG files speak volumes (they do to me at least). FWIW I think they're the nicest files I've ever worked with.

    . . . as you say, the colour will get better the DR probably won't. The noise will - probably not by a huge amount, but there apparently will be an improvement.

    Personally I think the rangefinder part of the camera is a total winner . . . the only thing I'd have is to have it M6 sized - really I think that's all. The Live View /EVF is a bit different - but none the less very useable and capable for measured shooting.

    all the best

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Because hopefully the form factor and utility of the camera is such that it helps you take photos that would be more difficult to achieve with a DSLR?

    If your goal is otherwise, you are only ever going to be 'outgunned' as technology improves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    When the M9 came out, I had a wow-feeling regarding the image quality. Back then, the value proposition was that you get something special for the 7-8k a comparably high resolution CCD sensor that nobody else has with very high acutance. But now I have the feeling, when looking at the value for money, that I get standard DSLR quality in a nice package, nothing more.

    If you look at the samples of the new sigma DP3 how can M images still amaze?

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    As related to what Marc said>>>"Subjectively, I think all these 35mm sensors are becoming homogenized and MacDonalded"<<<
    ...
    Basically, if this is true, we're back to the film world. It's what lens you pick that makes the difference. Even more reason for the new M ... A huge range of superb lenses with unique rendering signatures to choose from. Modern lens have their look, older lenses theirs. The camera faithfully records the lens rendering. What could be better?

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    All: good reading.
    Jono: Nice work! Thank you for venturing out into another 'perfect storm' for the rest of us.

    Cheers, Matt
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    ...
    Is that helpful?
    Yes, thank you!
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Roger
    Did I say that? What a load of rubbish - it was probably late .
    I think the DNG files speak volumes (they do to me at least). FWIW I think they're the nicest files I've ever worked with.

    . . . as you say, the colour will get better the DR probably won't. The noise will - probably not by a huge amount, but there apparently will be an improvement.

    Personally I think the rangefinder part of the camera is a total winner . . . the only thing I'd have is to have it M6 sized - really I think that's all. The Live View /EVF is a bit different - but none the less very useable and capable for measured shooting.

    all the best
    Thank you Jono, your observations are very reassuring.
    Looking forward to seeing the fully sorted M's sometime soon .

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by m_driscoll View Post
    All: good reading.
    Jono: Nice work! Thank you for venturing out into another 'perfect storm' for the rest of us.

    Cheers, Matt
    Thanks Matt
    I'd like to say it all washes over me. Truth is that the threads here and at LUF make it all worthwhile. thank you everyone
    The comments on Steve Huffs site and Leica rumors were less than delightful.
    It's amazing how rude people can be when they aren't in front of you!

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Not to mention the ones on RFF.
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Thanks Matt
    I'd like to say it all washes over me. Truth is that the threads here and at LUF make it all worthwhile. thank you everyone
    The comments on Steve Huffs site and Leica rumors were less than delightful.
    It's amazing how rude people can be when they aren't in front of you!
    Yeah I read some of the comments on Steve Huff's site and after about the fifth insulting comment I just stopped reading. IF you don't think they are the greatest photos then a person is entitled to their opinion but there's no need for extreme rudeness in reference to the photographer's ability ever. I think you mentioned here and at LUF that you were shooting to showcase the camera and not the lenses and that's what I felt about the files upon first glance. They were lightly, nicely processed family vacation photos and showed off what to expect from the camera.

    I think some people had it in their mind that Leica should only show highly processed photos like the ones from Cuba. I think those did a great deal to sell camera and while it's not a dishonest practice, as it is technically possible to create that sort of image, that method shows off PP skills as much as composition skills. I didn't feel that is what you were going for though. Again I appreciate your viewpoint and decision to go the route you did. It makes for a better baseline to process to each individual's personal photo preference IMO.
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