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Thread: New M files available from Jono

  1. #101
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Well, it is so much easier to be superior in your own mind than in someone else's...
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Well, it is so much easier to be superior in your own mind than in someone else's...
    Very true and that's why the first thing I do after brushing my teeth every morning/ night is tell myself how much I rock...
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    At home, I don't bother hanging art--I have mirrors.
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    At home, I don't bother hanging art--I have mirrors.
    LOL. That actually made me laugh out loud.
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  5. #105
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Yeah I read some of the comments on Steve Huff's site and after about the fifth insulting comment I just stopped reading. IF you don't think they are the greatest photos then a person is entitled to their opinion but there's no need for extreme rudeness in reference to the photographer's ability ever.
    Leica rumors was the same - interesting that they're now giving Thorsten a going over for a lighthearted interview with Kaufmann.
    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    I think you mentioned here and at LUF that you were shooting to showcase the camera and not the lenses and that's what I felt about the files upon first glance. They were lightly, nicely processed family vacation photos and showed off what to expect from the camera.
    They aren't processed at all - not even straightened (with one jpg exception) - they're just out of the camera files.


    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    I think some people had it in their mind that Leica should only show highly processed photos like the ones from Cuba. I think those did a great deal to sell camera and while it's not a dishonest practice, as it is technically possible to create that sort of image, that method shows off PP skills as much as composition skills. I didn't feel that is what you were going for though. Again I appreciate your viewpoint and decision to go the route you did. It makes for a better baseline to process to each individual's personal photo preference IMO.
    They'll do that as well - (Jean Gaumy etc.).

    But it's rather like showing your laundry basket in public.

    Here's just an example - two the shots as I meant them (rather than the bland originals).







    I'm sure most of us would find the same with our images - you see something, grab it and then turn it into what you want -

    all the best
    Last edited by jonoslack; 9th February 2013 at 07:22.

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  6. #106
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Jono Wrote>>>"But it's rather like showing your laundry basket in public"<<<

    Maybe if your laundry basket had a varietal amount of different colored clothes, which of course matches your personality....we'd know in one fell swoop the color reproduction potential of the new "M"...LOL! No need for us to angst over whether it can produce this color or that with compete accuracy!...we'd have our answer!

    Here in the States there is a Bank card commercial asking "what's in your wallet"....maybe we should start a thread..."what's in your laundry basket" and then go about photographing ours . On second thought, maybe not!

    Oh, that second pic "above" is just lovely with the percived emotion between the two. Images like that transcend which camera was used to take the shot!

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post

    Here in the States there is a Bank card commercial asking "what's in your wallet"....maybe we should start a thread..."what's in your laundry basket" and then go about photographing ours . On second thought, maybe not!
    Certainly not our laundry basket!

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Oh, that second pic "above" is just lovely with the percived emotion between the two. Images like that transcend which camera was used to take the shot!

    Dave (D&A)
    Thank you! I think the point is that it's not particularly obvious from the DNG, which needed straightening and cropping first. Which is my point really. . . . . as for what's in my wallet - simple - nothing (we just booked flights to China )

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Not to mention the ones on RFF.
    Hi Robert
    They were mere pussies in the face of the ravening beasts on Steve Huff's website!
    And as for Leica Rumors

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    (we just booked flights to China )
    Shall we see colour images this time, Jono ?



    All the very best.
    Bart ...

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Shall we see colour images this time, Jono ?



    All the very best.
    Certainly will. Otherwise Emma will kill me!

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Certainly will. Otherwise Emma will kill me!
    Just tell her the M9 is not working right because you left the color filters at home. You should have packed them with your toothpaste.
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Leica keyboard warriors out for blood in various websites. Geez, the same reaction of degrading comments when Nikon released its D800/E, now its Leica's turn I suppose. Some of the comments in certain websites are outright rude.

    These are just samples to download and play with. Leica and the photographers involved have released these fine images in good faith, that is, for evaluation of the camera output. Instead the keyboard warriors have a field day, insulting the photographers. I have been in this forum for quite some time but do not post much. Thanks for being one of the few sites where comments are mature and intelligent.
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Same with the RX-1 and just about every release. It seemed the less people knew, the more they would bash. The next time I get excited about a new camera, I am keeping it to myself.
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Have not looked into the new Leica yet as I have been busy with other things but this bashing seems to happen with every new entry into the market. The reality is this the profiles in all the processors is never good on release and these cams get judged with unfair brutality as its supposed to be perfect out of the gate. Anyone with half a brain should know better that until these correct profiles are out than its really hard to evaluate anything. I have reviewed so many out of the gate products its scary how bad they are until the correct profiles are made. This is not just color but sharpness, noise and so on. I remember the S2 for example looked horrific in C1 using there generic DNG profile. Than looked better under LR and even better later with update. This is normal but people can't seem to understand that and if your a Leica fan its even worse the koolaid attitude. LOL

    My advice to our members just be patient and wait until things settle down and good profiles are available to make good comparisons on your upgrade purchases. I'm looking forward to see what this new chip can do myself but I know better to just wait a bit to get under the covers with it. Lol

    Jono keep up the good work and just post away and ignore the zealots. I know that is my attitude when testing new product.
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    It puzzles me: why must we find it good work if some photog is working together with Leica advertising and praising its new products - imho it is nothing more than a commercial endeavour to get a market share. I - and I know I am not alone here - would rather have a more open minded atmosphere and comparable test of products than the halleluja's that are practically only allowed at the LUF site - and hopefully GETDPI won't become a second LUF in that way. Let me make one thing clear: blunt insulting must always be forbidden - but leave people making critical comments/you don't always have to respond to insulting comments leave alone going to fight against it - every one can value the different contributions: starting to aggressively defend what Leica is doing as a response is not the best approach imho (to the extent this is done at LUF makes me think that LUF is practically owned by Leica). And of course I know many don't come with 'proof' for their statements, but that is exactly what is going on at LUF and what we don't want: a kind of courtroom. My view is that Leica is loosing quite some people now who in the past enjoyed much of their digital products....leaving the competition at the winning end
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    If I want your opinion, I will give it to you...
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    (That was a joke...)
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Lol . Well this site will never be like anyone else's. good , bad or indifferent. But I promise you this people can leave there crap attitude at the door because we won't put up with it. This site intention is too be friendly, helpful and open for good discussion to learn and share anything else is not welcome with members and owners of this site.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Guy, glad to see you back. I assume everything has settled down now.

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Thanks have the day off but yes things have settled down some and I appreciate yours and everyone's concern and love. Some trying times but this family fights hard.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    If I want your opinion, I will give it to you...
    pity
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    BTW I would love to get impressions on how the new Leica handles compared to the old style with all the new features. That would be interesting to our readers. Be interesting to hear of live view compared to popular DSLR cams with it and how it works in comparison since most of us have live view on our DSLR stuff. I think that would be fun to hear. Just a thought
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Ron,

    I never said Leica images and the photographers involved have to be praised. I just pointed out the attitude some have, having fun bashing the photographers instead of evaluating the images. I also said this is not unique to Leica butother companies as well.

    There were some who did comment on the quality of M output, whether good or bad. I see a few issues with this new camera as well, such as banding, dark spots or dots, color cast etc. I see some have commented on these issues in a mature and civilised way. This kind of mature discussion is useful but what is not corrct is bashing someone's photographic skills. Neither Gaumy nor Jono asked for a critique of their skills. But that is what the majority of internet has commented upon. I just pointed out that this is not a good trend and complemented on the members of this forum not joining the rest of the web world.

    Steering the discussion back to the point of this thread, the new M will have lovers and haters, just like any other camera by any manufacturer. I personally feel that seeing the output from the M, so far, is similar of any other CMOS sensor, a bit different from CCD. It is a personal preference, some see it, some don't. If they see the difference, some would prefer it while some would not. Again personal preference. The images from the new M are very good, better in lot of ways than M9, color accuracy seems very good and improved. But color depth and near infrared gamut is inferior to M. Again this is chararacteristic of the CCD vs CMOS. No matter what hardware/software chain you have, this cannot be changed completely. Whether this is significant or not is again individual preference.

    Love to hear comments
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Hi Ron, I don't think anyone disagree that we want an open discussion, and it's easier to do that if it's built on civility while reserve any final judgement and the use of superlatives. I think Jono's original post did just that, he presented both good and bad points on the camera and let the files speak for themselves.

    To me, I'm glad some of the shots were just-around-the-house shots because god knows how many of those I've taken from the M9 and how challenging it has been to process them. Therefore, it has been useful to me to take a stab at processing the released DNGs and get a feel of what I could experience if I bought the new M.

    Some people seems a bit too quick to write-off the new M and cancel their pre-orders, don't you think? Even myself, as a current M9 user, has a slight bias as I would love to hate the new M. I think my final decision will be based on: what can I do with the new M that I can't do with M9? Whether or not the amount of improvement is worth the cost to me? I guess only I can answer that, and to answer these questions I'd welcome any and all samples good and bad. Actually, I wish I can see more bad shots to see how salvageable they are since it's closer to my own workflow
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Sven and David, I appreciate your open minded responses. Hope the rest of this thread will go on like these.
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron (Netherlands) View Post
    pity
    It was a joke--hence the following post. I actually agree with you.

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    The intention of the proof of performance DNG s is to provide potential buyers (hopefully) with an opportunity to judge for themselves . How can this context be so easily tossed away to justify almost any POV ? Whats fair to expect?

    The files selected should show how the new camera handles a need for a large dynamic range ,the ability to record fine detail , noise limitations in high ISO etc (not a complete list ). It is in this context that comments are fair game . I thought Jono and Chris did a good job of showing representative samples .

    Leica has such great products (eventually) that they get a free pass on "never ever getting anything done on time " . No knock on Jono or Chris but a pro with good light could shoot all those proofs in a day . So they have Jono out months before ...last fall ? Seems like a fair comment that Leica s new release process is lacking . Wait 9 months for Leica to get it right ? Seriously can anyone that bought an M8,M9 or S2 at first release support that Leica got it right ? The Leica SPa trip joke isn t funny if you need the gear .

    Expecting a professional set of DNG s to evaluate a buying decision sure seems reasonable to me . If you didn t order back last summer (no not at the release date ) you wouldn t see you camera (in most cases ) until summer . A 9 month wait for most orders . This is new low in performance by the team that can t stop patting themselves on the back (not Jono/Chris ) .

    IMO ...the DNG s are decent to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the new M . They will get better as Adobe finishes the profiles , calibration and presets get refined . However, The files are very finished looking compared to the M9 or S2 at introduction . This means that the embedded profile clearly has produced the color to a desired profile . In normal daylight I found the WB and most of the other processing unnecessary . This is similar to the DMR which never did get an Adobe profile (correct ?) . The maestro processor has been working hard .

    Really did anyone expect the files to be crappy ? We know the change from CCD to CMOS is the big story . If you have compared any of the top CMOS systems to CCD you know what to look for :

    1.......ISO performance is better with CMOS ..the files hold up as ISO increases and they extend out up to ISO6400 . DR ,color saturation and noise suppression hold up better .

    2........IQ at base ISO has a different aesthetic differences between CCD and CMOS ...this isn t going to change . The CCD files have a brilliance and color depth thats not matched by CMOS ..even using the same Leica lenses .

    So all as expected ..the M9 never matched the DMR ..but it was superb in its own right and better in so many other ways . I expect the M will follow the same path ..it will be superb but different . if you have been waiting and waiting for performance in the 800-3200 range ,live view,EVF or many of the other updates , it will be worth it .
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    The intention of the proof of performance DNG s is to provide potential buyers (hopefully) with an opportunity to judge for themselves . How can this context be so easily tossed away to justify almost any POV ? Whats fair to expect?

    The files selected should show how the new camera handles a need for a large dynamic range ,the ability to record fine detail , noise limitations in high ISO etc (not a complete list ). It is in this context that comments are fair game . I thought Jono and Chris did a good job of showing representative samples .

    Leica has such great products (eventually) that they get a free pass on "never ever getting anything done on time " . No knock on Jono or Chris but a pro with good light could shoot all those proofs in a day . So they have Jono out months before ...last fall ? Seems like a fair comment that Leica s new release process is lacking . Wait 9 months for Leica to get it right ? Seriously can anyone that bought an M8,M9 or S2 at first release support that Leica got it right ? The Leica SPa trip joke isn t funny if you need the gear .

    Expecting a professional set of DNG s to evaluate a buying decision sure seems reasonable to me . If you didn t order back last summer (no not at the release date ) you wouldn t see you camera (in most cases ) until summer . A 9 month wait for most orders . This is new low in performance by the team that can t stop patting themselves on the back (not Jono/Chris ) .

    IMO ...the DNG s are decent to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the new M . They will get better as Adobe finishes the profiles , calibration and presets get refined . However, The files are very finished looking compared to the M9 or S2 at introduction . This means that the embedded profile clearly has produced the color to a desired profile . In normal daylight I found the WB and most of the other processing unnecessary . This is similar to the DMR which never did get an Adobe profile (correct ?) . The maestro processor has been working hard .

    Really did anyone expect the files to be crappy ? We know the change from CCD to CMOS is the big story . If you have compared any of the top CMOS systems to CCD you know what to look for :

    1.......ISO performance is better with CMOS ..the files hold up as ISO increases and they extend out up to ISO6400 . DR ,color saturation and noise suppression hold up better .

    2........IQ at base ISO has a different aesthetic differences between CCD and CMOS ...this isn t going to change . The CCD files have a brilliance and color depth thats not matched by CMOS ..even using the same Leica lenses .

    So all as expected ..the M9 never matched the DMR ..but it was superb in its own right and better in so many other ways . I expect the M will follow the same path ..it will be superb but different . if you have been waiting and waiting for performance in the 800-3200 range ,live view,EVF or many of the other updates , it will be worth it .
    Roger I respect everything you had to say here, and I agree with almost all of it. The only possible issue I would have is in the way you define value when using the words "it will be worth it."

    All of you here who know me and/or my work also know that I have shot Leica products for many years, the M system the longest. In my opinion, there are few 35mm lenses ever made that are equal to a Leica, and fewer still that are superior. I hold Leica glass in the highest regard, and still today use it on a regular basis in my own work.

    But the bodies? There I've some observations to share. Leica has had probably the most colorful history of all the digital camera manufacturers. I owned all of those earlier offerings, two of the DMR attachment "backs" for my R8 & R9, two "colorful purple" M8s on it's first release, then the latest my M9. Each of these bodies worked, however none of them nearly as well or as reliably as I would have hoped - or expected at the price they sold for.

    That said, I used each and every one of them to create imagery that I could not have created at the time with any other body. The magic of the color and micro-contrast detail from the R Glass and the DMR were not available in any other offering then, and few equal them today. The portability, stealth, size, and weight of the M8 aside, the ability to use the fantastic M lenses on a digital M8 body far and away provided me more than sufficient reason to own two of them, and put up with the IR challenges. The M9, refining the M8 concept to what a Digital M camera should have been in the first place.

    Historically speaking I think we can all agree that none of these Leica digital developments came very quickly, relative to the other digital camera manufacturer's offerings on the market at the same time. Outside their deep lens expertise, Leica has never been known as a particularly savvy or innovative technology company. They never needed to be in the days of mechanical mechanisms to move a strip of film. While not perfect, each of these cameras had something very special and unique about them that made me purchase and use for my work.

    I'm taking a wait and see for myself attitude towards the new M. Much as I appreciate Jono's kind offer to view his excellent image samples, Jono and I shoot very different work under different conditions. I would be less than honest if I did not say though that the decision this time around is going to be very differently based than it has been in the past. Today's reality is there are other contenders in town that do a pretty darn good job of meeting my needs, and I am already using them today.

    Does this latest generation M camera body have something to offer me? I won't be able to answer that question until I can test it for myself. My hope is that it does, as I've always enjoyed the controls and control layout on Leica bodies. And, of course, the perfect fit between them and Leica M lenses without the need for adapters. But it is going to take something more to compel me into deciding it is a camera body I can't live without than just a more convenient lens mount. I need to see something unique and compelling from the body that I am not seeing so far from the specifications. Something uniquely Leica, that most likely can only come from holding one in my own hands and shooting it. Cause right now, to me it looks like a too camera. Too little, too late, and way too expensive to own vs. what those same dollars can buy in alternative bodies already on the market with the same image capturing capability using the same quality lenses.
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Chuck

    Of course " value " is the eye of beholder and Leica has always been several times as expensive as other good alternatives . My observations we really aimed at those m8/m9 owners that are on the fence about the new M . Giving up some of the benefits of say the M9 CCD to gain the greater all around capabilities of the new M ..seems worth it . I won t really know until I have an M and use it a while .

    The issue for many M8/M9 owners is will the new M be a real step up . I really hated giving up the DMR color but I forget the weak points like a cropped sensor ,weak battery , small buffer and visible noise starting at ISO400 . I feel the M9 to new M will be a similar transition process and with experience I can narrow the gap like I did with the M9 .

    I know I am stuck in the mud ....but my priorities are (1) be able to really see what I capturing (viewfinder ) and (2) being able to quickly and accurately focus . Haven t found any system I connect with better than a Leica M .

    So please take my observations in that context and not as blanket endorsement .
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Personally, I greatly appreciate the samples and subsequent discussions here.

    In recent past, Jono's MM beta RAW files from China were very helpful to me when making a move to secure one. My own personal 35+ year historical application of a M camera had been overwhelmingly B&W, so it was not really all that hard to commit. It was one of those immediately "worth it" sort of personal decisions. In concert with the whole "unique gestalt" that Chuck references, the MM has proven to meet every application criteria I had, and then some. The whole M rangefinder and lens performance aspect was obviously intact right down to the smallest attribute.

    Now, right on the heels of that comes another major decision ... one that may not be as crystal clear quite yet to everyone, but also very expensive ... and what potential impact might it have on one's creative approach(s)?

    IMO, one of the chief questions is broached by Chuck ... in the array of color solutions available now (or hinted at as soon coming), how much of a role will a camera like the new M play in each of our personal array of applications? How much could it expand those applications, and do we actually care?

    Knowing Roger and Jono's work to some degree, it is probably safe to say the new M can and will play a role in their creative approaches. That may not be quite as clear for others ... perhaps Chuck being one, and me being another.

    No huge rush really is there? My go to color solution is either a H4D/60 with its Dalsa sensor skin tones , or the Leica S2 with delicious optics ... both of which I adore for any color work ... or a Sony solution with some tasty Zeiss AF optics for speed, and all the modern toys, e-viewfinder, and wiz-bang do-dads.

    All the best, and keep the samples coming ... I'm starting to suspect that I'm facing a Three M future: MM for B&W, M9P for standard lower ISO CCD punch and character match to my S2, and the new M for lower-light color and perhaps some other use of the flexibility (like the new M base that allows sync cords for use of off-camera strobes).

    -Marc

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    I don't know what all happened on LUF, RFF, SH, LR... But I can only imagine. And why I started La Vida Leica. The childish bickering and other nonsense just got old. Thankfully, GetDPI has a similar no-nonsense bunch of guys behind it and what keeps this site respectable, mature and professional.

    In any event, thank you Jono - for providing the images! They're very much appreciated.

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post
    I don't know what all happened on LUF, RFF, SH, LR... But I can only imagine. And why I started La Vida Leica. The childish bickering and other nonsense just got old. Thankfully, GetDPI has a similar no-nonsense bunch of guys behind it and what keeps this site respectable, mature and professional.

    In any event, thank you Jono - for providing the images! They're very much appreciated.
    Just people being people. Many were disrespectful. Most were somewhat objective. Some people feel it's their duty to champion their choice in camera either way and that everything else is crap. I guess it goes with the territory. Full disclosure a part of me disliked some of the perceived arrogance of SOME Leica M users when I was initially researching an M8 purchase. In a way it was good thing because I saw helpful regulars at LUF like Guy and Jonoslack mention GetDPI and that's how I wound up here. The saying is true though until you've walked in their shoes it's unfair to judge. Being an M owner I see the other side and the assumed prejudices of M users that is often far from the truth for most (they're all spoiled rich camera/ lens collectors, status camera, they don't actually make photos, etc.)

    Recently (within the last 6 months) I've earned my Leica fan boy badge. Yes people will disregard the fact that I own three other systems (like many other Leica M people.) I even talked my buddy OUT of buying into a M-E (he really liked my Orphanage pictures and some other stuff I've done) he was prepared to get because it realistically didn't fit his needs. So he would up with a D600 kit which he loves and it fit his needs.
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post
    I don't know what all happened on LUF, RFF, SH, LR... But I can only imagine. And why I started La Vida Leica. The childish bickering and other nonsense just got old. Thankfully, GetDPI has a similar no-nonsense bunch of guys behind it and what keeps this site respectable, mature and professional.

    In any event, thank you Jono - for providing the images! They're very much appreciated.
    HI There
    Actually, LUF has been interesting - sometimes challenging, often negative, but mostly sensible and useful.

    RFF has been RFF - I was accused of both fraud, and allowing Leica to write the blurb on the blog which has my name to it - standard RFF stuff I'd say! Some measured stuff though - as usual .

    SH and LR - well!

    But it's okay - it comes with the territory - and on the other hand I've had some supportive and friendly comments and emails from people who I really do respect - which much more than makes up for the negative.

    All the best

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I've had some supportive and friendly comments and emails from people who I really do respect - which much more than makes up for the negative.
    Good news. I'm hoping these recent events haven't dissuaded you from continuing these forays in the future.

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    ^ What he said.

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI There
    Actually, LUF has been interesting - sometimes challenging, often negative, but mostly sensible and useful.

    RFF has been RFF - I was accused of both fraud, and allowing Leica to write the blurb on the blog which has my name to it - standard RFF stuff I'd say! Some measured stuff though - as usual .

    SH and LR - well!

    But it's okay - it comes with the territory - and on the other hand I've had some supportive and friendly comments and emails from people who I really do respect - which much more than makes up for the negative.

    All the best
    Jono,

    you are doing great work here - as always

    best

    Peter

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Good news. I'm hoping these recent events haven't dissuaded you from continuing these forays in the future.
    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post
    ^ What he said.
    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Jono,

    you are doing great work here - as always

    best

    Peter
    Thank you kindly gentlemen
    Truth is I'm much easier to flatter than to discourage, and flattery from someone you respect is so much more significant than criticism from someone you don't. (of course, I'm completely objective about this).

    . . . and if it seems like I'm mild mannered, you should see the posts that I don't press the 'post' button on

    It's all very good fun, and I feel privileged to have the opportunity (it is harder work than you might imagine though).

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron (Netherlands) View Post
    It puzzles me: why must we find it good work if some photog is working together with Leica advertising and praising its new products -
    Hi Ron

    It's nice to see you here. I actually have nothing to do with Leica advertising, but I am 'working' for Leica (I don't get paid - hence the quote marks). I do it for the fun of it - and it is fun (and it's quite a lot of work).

    I also appreciate that I'm part of the marketing machine for the new camera - how could it be otherwise? I've often said that if I find something wrong with a camera I tell Leica, and if I find something right then I tell everyone else - I've never pretended to be a free agent like Sean Reid, Michael Reichman, Ming Thein or other reviewers.

    But this doesn't stop me from being honest. It doesn't stop Leica from being honest either, Of course everything I write is seen by them first (but they don't ask me to show it to them), and I can honestly say that they've never asked me to change or add anything at all. . . Nothing. And I'm not given a brief as to what to write either - ever.

    If I'm praising the camera, then it's because I think it's praiseworthy - If I didn't like it, then I'd keep my mouth shut; which is absolutely my prerogative.

    Does this clarify things?
    I do hope so
    all the best

    PS if anyone finds this post odd, then it's kind of in response to some dialog on RFF.

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Hi Jono, Continue with what you are doing and have fun!

    Just ignore anything that is negative.
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    BTW I would love to get impressions on how the new Leica handles compared to the old style with all the new features. That would be interesting to our readers. Be interesting to hear of live view compared to popular DSLR cams with it and how it works in comparison since most of us have live view on our DSLR stuff. I think that would be fun to hear. Just a thought
    Hi There Guy
    Thanks for the kind words.
    I won't be able to do a comparison with dSLR cameras with respect to live view. I will be putting together something over the next few weeks, and of course I'll post it here straight away - Leica are quite careful to make a level playing field, so everyone can post on the same date (I just might not have written it by then!).

    all the best to you . . . and also to yours

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Ron

    It's nice to see you here. I actually have nothing to do with Leica advertising, but I am 'working' for Leica (I don't get paid - hence the quote marks). I do it for the fun of it - and it is fun (and it's quite a lot of work).

    I also appreciate that I'm part of the marketing machine for the new camera - how could it be otherwise? I've often said that if I find something wrong with a camera I tell Leica, and if I find something right then I tell everyone else - I've never pretended to be a free agent like Sean Reid, Michael Reichman, Ming Thein or other reviewers.

    But this doesn't stop me from being honest. It doesn't stop Leica from being honest either, Of course everything I write is seen by them first (but they don't ask me to show it to them), and I can honestly say that they've never asked me to change or add anything at all. . . Nothing. And I'm not given a brief as to what to write either - ever.

    If I'm praising the camera, then it's because I think it's praiseworthy - If I didn't like it, then I'd keep my mouth shut; which is absolutely my prerogative.

    Does this clarify things?
    I do hope so
    all the best

    PS if anyone finds this post odd, then it's kind of in response to some dialog on RFF.
    Thanks for clarifying, hope you continue and forget about any coarseness - wasn't meant to be....sometimes posts aren't quite subtle....
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron (Netherlands) View Post
    Thanks for clarifying, hope you continue and forget about any coarseness - wasn't meant to be....sometimes posts aren't quite subtle....
    Sounds like peace to me . I quite agree - easy to misunderstand, water under the bridge etc.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    ...(like the new M base that allows sync cords for use of off-camera strobes).

    -Marc
    Hi, Marc. Is this really any more usable than using a hotshoe mounted PC socket or Pocket Wizard on the M9?

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi There Guy
    Thanks for the kind words.
    I won't be able to do a comparison with dSLR cameras with respect to live view. I will be putting together something over the next few weeks, and of course I'll post it here straight away - Leica are quite careful to make a level playing field, so everyone can post on the same date (I just might not have written it by then!).

    all the best to you . . . and also to yours
    Yes right now something like that will be a challenge since things are so new and doing that can be tough, no worries there but switching gears here my biggest and should be everyone's question is the switch to CMOS over CCD a mostly positive one. Now I have been a big CCD proponent for quite sometime. Leica DMR,M8, M9 even though I did not own this one but 5 CCD MF backs kind of makes me a CCD guy and even though the D800 is a great camera and a nice sensor device it's not CCD and I can see it. Not that it's a bad thing as I do gain some things better and some things worse . The switch now with Leica is my biggest concern over pretty much everything else with the new cam. Now we really won't know that until we get great profiles out in the raw processors and even than its going to take some very careful testing and some careful evaluation to see these differences in the chips. I suspect like it is today better higher ISO noise and such but good color out of CMOS has always been lacking behind CCD. Even the Nikon takes some serious care in processing and I think we can all agree its a nice new sensor in the market.

    It's going to be interesting how this comes about with the M9 and the new M which shooting wise a apple to apple test but until great profiles for processing than we won't know for sure. Folks buying I suggest take your time wait for these results before giving up your CCD's. Now that maybe a bias comment cause I really like CCD sensors over CMOS . Don't get caught up in the Mpx stuff and features. Giving up a CCD sensor in my mind is not easy. I did it a few months back and I'm grinding my teeth some. Just some thoughts
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    I've owned several CCD and CMOS cameras (I'm currently shooting the M9,) but I think that the "look" difference comes down to more than just the type of sensor. Color filters, AA filters (or lack of,) internal processing, raw converter, etc., all play a role in the differences. For example, both Nikon and Canon have been reducing their color filter quality for a while, in order to improve lowlight performance, so simply changing the CFA should make quite a difference.

    I'm just not sure that we can isolate differences to simply CCD vs. CMOS, because there are so many elements involved, and Leica may be able to tune the M 240 to look similar to the M9. Granted, I hope that the M9's CCD does prove superior over the M 240 in some ways, so that my M9's value holds, and I'm not tempted to buy the M 240.

    Another thing to consider is that Leica allegedly tuned the M9 sensor to look vaguely like Kodachrome, so, maybe with the M 240, they'll go for some kind of negative film look, like Portra, since the sensor has more DR.
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Well it's going to be easier to test as well since we are dealing in the same system than comparing different systems and using the same processors. My point if anything is we will have a lot less variables involved. So being neutral from the start will be a easier task
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    I've owned several CCD and CMOS cameras (I'm currently shooting the M9,) but I think that the "look" difference comes down to more than just the type of sensor. Color filters, AA filters (or lack of,) internal processing, raw converter, etc., all play a role in the differences. For example, both Nikon and Canon have been reducing their color filter quality for a while, in order to improve lowlight performance, so simply changing the CFA should make quite a difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Well it's going to be easier to test as well since we are dealing in the same system than comparing different systems and using the same processors. My point if anything is we will have a lot less variables involved. So being neutral from the start will be a easier task
    I'm with Douglas here - and it seems to me that a comparison of A900 and D3x files shows this quite well ( the A900 is very inferior in terms of high ISO but much better from a colour point of view). Leica seem to have gone in the direction of less high ISO noise and better colour.

    At the moment I'm very happy with the colour I can get from the new M - but as you say Guy - the RAW processors don't have the right profiles yet, so you have to make it right.

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    I have yet to see any sensor look like Kodachrome. They all do much better, and thankfully with better color. I think we have a very nostalgic view of slide film, especially Kodachrome.

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I have yet to see any sensor look like Kodachrome. They all do much better, and thankfully with better color. I think we have a very nostalgic view of slide film, especially Kodachrome.
    A few sources have mentioned Leica's intent to somewhat simulate Kodachrome with the M9, although I agree that is still pretty far off.

    Either way, since I don't shoot product photography or textbooks or whatever, I'm not really interested in accurate color, and I think a lot of different films have a great look to them.

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Jono, from me, I've said before Leica chose wisely and I have the benefit of having printed some of your images (as is on the threads here).


    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I'm with Douglas here - and it seems to me that a comparison of A900 and D3x files shows this quite well ( the A900 is very inferior in terms of high ISO but much better from a colour point of view)...
    Interestingly I used a very light set of colour filters on the monochrom to produce a colour output, it didn't turn out very well. When I used stronger filters (from colour developing) the colours were amazing. I think this is a difference between Nikon and Sony sensors. My guess is Nikon's desire for high ISO means lighter filters, but drove me crazy with explosive reds and tainted yellows. Sony far better (but still not a good as film). I wanted to do some still life with the Monochrom in colour but have not had time of late.

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