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Thread: New M files available from Jono

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    New M files available from Jono

    http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...onathan-slack/

    Nice report by Jono on the Leica Blog includes sample images and downloadable DNG files . Jono it would be helpful to know more details in how you processed the files and if you were able to do any side by side comparisons with an M9 .
    Roger Dunham
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    These should've been the first images shown and a few of them I've already seen but assumed they were M9 shots. Jono isa sneaky one and I'm sold on the Type 240 now.
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    HI Roger -
    Thanks for the link.

    Obviously the DNG files are as they were. Where there are processed jpgs, they were done in Aperture (my favorite). I have done some comparisons with the M9, but I'm afraid I'm rather allergic to publishing results from comparisons - there's so many ways of interpreting everything, and my neck already feels very stuck out!

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    I recognize many photos which were posted here as from M9, Jono.

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    HI Vivek
    Well - the M pictures thread is about images, not about technicality, and pixel peeping at that resolution isn't very useful - I plead guilty to one or two pictures having their exif stripped and files renamed. There didn't seem to be any harm done.
    all the best

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    so jono, how did you like the "new" ergonomics, larger highrez lcd viewer, did you try the EVfinder?

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Well, Jono, I was not complaining, in case you misunderstood (I also think all photography is about the images whether it is Leica or even Hasslblad Lunar).

    I liked the images then and also now. Particularly, the bread and olive oil shot taken with the 135 APO.
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Thanks a lot for posting these files, Jono!

    A question about your leica forum posting: You write "there is a little shutter lag" - what is the shutter lag like in comparision to the M9?

    Chris

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    I knew those weren't M9.

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Jono, will you have a write up of the camera as you did with the MM and M9?

    By the way, great work all around! No matter what the camera, I have always enjoyed the rich files they you have provided us for viewing (and editing)
    Ashwin Rao
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Hi Ashwin
    Thanks for the kind words - I am planning a write-up - but it won't be until everybody else is allowed to do one as well. Not fair otherwise.

    all the best

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    I too have a lagging question.

    At first when I read there is "a little shutter lag", I got the impression this was a step back, but then I read "less shutter lag" than an M9.

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Jono, well done on keeping that secret for so long!

    On the picture in the snow, young lady with a dog ... is the jacket really purple or is there an IR issue?

    Regards
    Paul

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Jono,

    First good samples I've seen, I was waiting to hear from you as I suspected you were involved...

    I imagine this means that Leica is just about ready to release the new M to the dealers. :-)

    It's funny, but WAY back in 2000 when I was still shooting with the Nikon F3 (and I still love that camera), I conjectured that what I needed to be satisfied with a digital camera was a Nikon F3 or Leica M with 4000x6000 pixels resolution, enough storage for 1000 exposures, and enough battery storage to fill the storage.

    Fourteen years later, it's come to be, more or less ... at least on the Leica side of the fence. I'd never have imagined Leica would be here in 2002, thought it would be Nikon. Sadly, the F3 was eclipsed by AF stuff to the point where I am less enchanted by its successors in both film and digital. Modern SLRs, with few exceptions, have lost the clean simplicity of the F3 and FM/FE generation.

    G
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Congratulations Jono, very nice work and I think everyone appreciates your comments.

    Cheers,
    Stephen

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    I too have a lagging question.

    At first when I read there is "a little shutter lag", I got the impression this was a step back, but then I read "less shutter lag" than an M9.
    I think the "little shutter lag" is when using the EVF/Live View ... the shutter has to close first, then reopen. And any LCD/EVF will have a small amount of lag as well. In normal RF operation, I expect the new M to be a bit more responsive than the M9.

    G
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    I too have a lagging question.

    At first when I read there is "a little shutter lag", I got the impression this was a step back, but then I read "less shutter lag" than an M9.
    HI Robert
    Godfrey has it.
    the shutter lag is when using Live view-in classic mode the shutter lag is less than the M9.
    Live view is fantastic - but it's not for action photography.
    I hope this helps
    all the best
    Jonathan

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by wentbackward View Post
    Jono, well done on keeping that secret for so long!

    On the picture in the snow, young lady with a dog ... is the jacket really purple or is there an IR issue?

    Regards
    Paul
    Hi Paul
    quick off the mark! The young lady will be very pleased with your remark (it's my wife) - the jacket is purply/blue, the IR is pretty much exactly the same as the M9 - certainly no worse - so - there is a light effect with some acrylic materials.

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Hi Jono,

    great shots as always and thanks so much for this!

    Now please apologize - I do not want to sound concerned or negative by any means - but IMHO some of these files show a pretty strong green cast. Something which usually the latest Nikon generations (D800 and D4) are blamed and known for, but Leica M was never as far as I can remember.

    Is this only me seeing it? If not is Leica going to do something about it?

    I think the typical Kodachrome look is pretty different.

    Peter

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Jono, an excellent selection of respresentive images with the new M and truly appreciate, as always, your posted work. I assume from your responses to previous inquiries, that if Live view/EVF is "off", shutter lag is essentually the same as the M9?

    Very much looking forward to your eventual write-up of the new M as your past writings have always been extremely informative.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Hi Jono,

    great shots as always and thanks so much for this!

    Now please apologize - I do not want to sound concerned or negative by any means - but IMHO some of these files show a pretty strong green cast. Something which usually the latest Nikon generations (D800 and D4) are blamed and known for, but Leica M was never as far as I can remember.

    Is this only me seeing it? If not is Leica going to do something about it?

    I think the typical Kodachrome look is pretty different.

    Peter
    HI Peter
    What are you looking at the files in? Capture one?

    The WB isn't quite finished yet. I've not noticed a green cast though. Added to which the C1 and LR colour profiles aren't done yet - so you shouldn't really make assumptions.
    Mind you - my personal opinion is that the colour is a little nicer than the M9 already
    all the best

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Jono, an excellent selection of respresentive images with the new M and truly appreciate, as always, your posted work. I assume from your responses to previous inquiries, that if Live view/EVF is "off", shutter lag is essentually the same as the M9?

    Very much looking forward to your eventual write-up of the new M as your past writings have always been extremely informative.

    Dave (D&A)
    HI Dave
    No - I think that with Live view off there is slightly less shutter lag than with the M9.
    all the best

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Jono,
    Thank you for sharing.
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Very nice. I am not noticing anything strange with the color beyond actual lighting condition and then processing becomes a matter of taste. It looks like you are having a nicer winter than I am, and as a former East Anglican, that is not fair and not right.
    Last edited by Shashin; 5th February 2013 at 10:42.
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Peter
    What are you looking at the files in? Capture one?

    The WB isn't quite finished yet. I've not noticed a green cast though. Added to which the C1 and LR colour profiles aren't done yet - so you shouldn't really make assumptions.
    Mind you - my personal opinion is that the colour is a little nicer than the M9 already
    all the best
    Jono,

    actually looking at the files either in Aperture (yes it works for DNG) and PS CS4.

    Both the same impression from my side - looks very much the same as my D800E files - which is usually discussed in several fora on the Internet as green cast.

    And pretty much different to the M8 files, which were more magenta or Kodachrome like.

    Just to be sure, my screens are color calibrated and looks the same on all screens.

    Peter

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Peter
    What are you looking at the files in? Capture one?

    The WB isn't quite finished yet. I've not noticed a green cast though. Added to which the C1 and LR colour profiles aren't done yet - so you shouldn't really make assumptions.
    Mind you - my personal opinion is that the colour is a little nicer than the M9 already
    all the best
    I downloaded three of the DNG files and opened them in LR 4.3. The color balances look virtually identical to what you have posted on the site, I don't see a green cast. LR 4.3 certainly doesn't have profiles for this camera yet..

    G

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I downloaded three of the DNG files and opened them in LR 4.3. The color balances look virtually identical to what you have posted on the site, I don't see a green cast. LR 4.3 certainly doesn't have profiles for this camera yet..

    G
    On my machine with calibrated screen it looks same (or even more green) as the Nikon NEF's. BTW same cast as from the JPEGs. Maybe this is how Leica feels natural colors?

    Certainly different to what you get from Canon 1Dx or 5D3, which are more magenta, but looking more natural in the end at least for my eyes.

    Maybe we should not look at this now before official profiles are available.

    Peter

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    On my machine with calibrated screen it looks same (or even more green) as the Nikon NEF's. BTW same cast as from the JPEGs. Maybe this is how Leica feels natural colors?

    Certainly different to what you get from Canon 1Dx or 5D3, which are more magenta, but looking more natural in the end at least for my eyes.

    Maybe we should not look at this now before official profiles are available.

    Peter
    Mine are also on my calibrated screen, Peter. No green cast, using Lightroom v4.3 and no adjustments. I don't have Nikon NEFs to compare with, but I do have Ricoh GXR, Olympus E-1, E-5, Panasonic L1, etc etc, and Leica M9 to compare against. They look better than out of the camera M9 DNGs look with no adjustments, particularly when using AWB.

    Perhaps your calibration targets are different from mine. I'm using the Apple Thunderbolt Display 27" with calibration targets of 120 Cdm^2 luminance, gamma 1.8, white point 5500K. They're set with an Eye One Display 2 using the Xrite i1ProfilerD2LionEdition.app software.

    (These calibration targets are what I've used for everything I've processed since 2004. The fidelity of screen to print translation has always been very very close.)

    G

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    I suddenly don't feel so bad about the dust spots on my M9 files.

    Seriously, great work, Jono! The lust is rising in me...oh, Type 240.
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    My understanding is that the best gamma for a display is closer to 2.0 or 2.2. the old mac standard of 1.8 is now generally not favoured. Also wp is favoured more towards D65 and not the warmer D50.

    If it works for you great just saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Mine are also on my calibrated screen, Peter. No green cast, using Lightroom v4.3 and no adjustments. I don't have Nikon NEFs to compare with, but I do have Ricoh GXR, Olympus E-1, E-5, Panasonic L1, etc etc, and Leica M9 to compare against. They look better than out of the camera M9 DNGs look with no adjustments, particularly when using AWB.

    Perhaps your calibration targets are different from mine. I'm using the Apple Thunderbolt Display 27" with calibration targets of 120 Cdm^2 luminance, gamma 1.8, white point 5500K. They're set with an Eye One Display 2 using the Xrite i1ProfilerD2LionEdition.app software.

    (These calibration targets are what I've used for everything I've processed since 2004. The fidelity of screen to print translation has always been very very close.)

    G

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Edited out.
    Ed

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Can't see any green cast on my monitor, except in the flower shot, but that's probably a PP decision. I feel colors are different from M9, but very nice nonetheless. I think I like them more than the M9.

    Thanks a lot Jono!
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    My monitor (iMac) is calibrated to D65 and gamma 2.2.

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by robertwright View Post
    My understanding is that the best gamma for a display is closer to 2.0 or 2.2. the old mac standard of 1.8 is now generally not favoured. Also wp is favoured more towards D65 and not the warmer D50.

    If it works for you great just saying.
    The "best" gamma doesn't exist. The native gamma of an LED flat panel display is close to 2.2 and the native white point is close to 6500K, which is also close to the native characteristics of a CRT. These are what the original sRGB colorspace spec were modeled on (for CRTs), and the reason for adoption of 2.2 gamma as a standard across most systems has to do with the fact that most systems are uncalibrated. It's a case of the de facto driving a spec.

    The "old" Apple standard of 1.8 gamma was based on the limitations of the hardware in the late-1980s/middle-1990s. Due to limitations in the graphics adapter and display hardware, they picked 1.8 gamma as a standard as it gave more range to the adjustability for calibration. That restriction is long gone, the devices (both graphics adapter and display) have far more adjustability nowadays.

    However, I find the native white point of 6500 too blue and the 2.2 reference gamma too contrasty for my tastes. I have to tweak my adjustments in image processing too far off the centerline of what my cameras produce to accommodate them, and also tweak my color-managed printing process to match. I found through trial and error that using 1.8 gamma and 5500K white point allowed me to edit my images much closer to the centerline of all adjustments and produced the closest high-fidelity match to color managed prints with little additional tweaking necessary. So that's what I standardized on and that's what I continue to use.

    Occasionally, I reset my calibration targets and look to see how the processing proceeds, but so far I haven't found any good reason to move to the current standard of 2.2 gamma and 6500K white point. These targets always require more extensive adjustment of curves and white point to my raw files.

    Godfrey
    Last edited by Godfrey; 5th February 2013 at 12:40.
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Peter, I don't see green on my mbp retina either. On the contrary, I'd say there's more of a magenta hue in these shots.

    Jono, thanks for sharing. Artistically your images are really high quality, as always, I like your style.
    Technically, a few Stichwörter come to mind; As in the Dr. Ullrich shots, banding seems quite apparent. Colors are quite different than the earlier digital M's, it's difficult to describe at such an early stage, but to me they look not so much 'Kodachrome', but more Agfa (Belgian!) like. Pastels with a punch ...
    Question: what's this in the (not exactly ETTR-ed) bread, olive oil, tomatoes-shot?

    Thanks again.

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    My monitor (iMac) is NOT calibrated and the files just look perfect.
    So, there you go !



    All the best.
    Bart ...
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Robert

    the shutter lag is when using Live view-in classic mode the shutter lag is less
    Got it Jono, thanks for the clarification
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    +1 to the best samples i've seen yet. more over the samples are genuine quality photos no matter the gear, excellent job, i especially like the reflection in the puddle. great work sir!
    -Jon
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by peterv View Post
    Peter, I don't see green on my mbp retina either. On the contrary, I'd say there's more of a magenta hue in these shots.

    Jono, thanks for sharing. Artistically your images are really high quality, as always, I like your style.
    Technically, a few Stichwörter come to mind; As in the Dr. Ullrich shots, banding seems quite apparent. Colors are quite different than the earlier digital M's, it's difficult to describe at such an early stage, but to me they look not so much 'Kodachrome', but more Agfa (Belgian!) like. Pastels with a punch ...
    Question: what's this in the (not exactly ETTR-ed) bread, olive oil, tomatoes-shot?

    Thanks again.
    Hi Peter
    Thank You!
    The pictures were taken with three different cameras - the bread shot was taken with a really early prototype (which definitely did show banding - although not seriously IMHO). Later and better calibrated sensors are better.

    All I can see on your thumbnail is nuts . . . but I guess that wasn't the point!

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    The "best" gamma doesn't exist. The native gamma of an LED flat panel display is close to 2.2 and the native white point is close to 6500K. These are what the original sRGB colorspace spec were modeled on, and the reason for adoption of 2.2 gamma as a standard across most systems has to do with the fact that most systems are uncalibrated. It's a case of the de facto driving a spec.

    The "old" Apple standard of 1.8 gamma was based on the limitations of the hardware in the late-1980s/middle-1990s. Due to limitations in the graphics adapter and display hardware, they picked 1.8 gamma as a standard as it gave more range to the adjustability for calibration. That restriction is long gone, the devices (both graphics adapter and display) have far more adjustability nowadays.

    However, I find the native white point of 6500 too blue and the 2.2 reference gamma too contrasty for my tastes. I have to tweak my adjustments in image processing too far off the centerline of what my cameras produce to accommodate them, and also tweak my color-managed printing process to match. I found through trial and error that using 1.8 gamma and 5500K white point allowed me to edit my images much closer to the centerline of all adjustments and produced the closest high-fidelity match to color managed prints with little additional tweaking necessary. So that's what I standardized on and that's what I continue to use.

    Occasionally, I reset my calibration targets and look to see how the processing proceeds, but so far I haven't found any good reason to move to the current standard of 2.2 gamma and 6500K white point. These targets always require more extensive adjustment of curves and white point to my raw files.

    Godfrey
    I am using 1.8 gamma and 5500K since I started fine art printing and my local printer - who has year long experience - convinced me that this is really the closest to come to the look of number of papers on the screen.

    Anyway colors seem pretty different to what came out of M8 (and also M9).

    Peter

  41. #41
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    To Jono,

    after all these discussions: Again a warm THANK YOU for these great samples!

    If there is color cast to whatever end, it is not your fault.

    Best regards

    Peter
    Life is an ever changing journey
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Peter
    Thank You!
    The pictures were taken with three different cameras - the bread shot was taken with a really early prototype (which definitely did show banding - although not seriously IMHO). Later and better calibrated sensors are better.

    All I can see on your thumbnail is nuts . . . but I guess that wasn't the point!


    Thanks for taking the time to answer, Jono. I guess you're a busy man tonight
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Cheers and thanks from the bottom of the world Jono.


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    Senior Member GMB's Avatar
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Thanks Jono.

    And glad to see that you apparently have a new flat coat. When I posted a shot of ours over year you mentioned that you had one before but that he had died not to long ago.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Georg
    My new website (under construction) at Zenfolio

  45. #45
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    43 posts and only one comment on the actual DNG files ?

    Thank you Jono for putting yourself out there although this group have been like the home town team . To learn anything truly new we need to start digging in a bit . I ve taken all of Jono s DNG s into LR4 and had done side by side comparisons on a calibrated retina screen to both my M9 and my D800e with R glass . I will do the same with Leica s proof DNG s later .

    By almost any measure Leica has done a great job and I would expect these files to get better as post processing is refined .

    Color was my number one concern and they seem to have profiled the new M as perfect as you can to the new sensor . Using the embedded profile from the DNG and what I would guess was AWB (please confirm Jono) the files all seemed to have pleasing white balance and clearly favored a Kodachrome color rendition . These were primarily good light photographs that did not test DR or AWB in difficult situations . But they were good with the embedded profile and this normally means they will be great once photographers refine them to taste .

    Detail rendering appeared terrific but what I would expect from a 23MP sensor with Leica lenses . I could not see any significant improvement in detail rendering over the M9 ..but of course the images provided only were the new M . I attribute this to the fact that the M9 is very near the top in this category . Neither the new M or the M9 can compete purely on rendering of fine detail with the D800E and R lenses and certainly not with the S2/S. Since I don t make wall sized enlargements ..the differences are more common in cropped files and they do show up in the aesthetic .

    None of the areas of true differentiation appear to be demonstrated . A few showed high contrast and the need for a large DR but no images at ISO 3200/6400 unless I missed them . If so they are really good . Leica has a few and I will try them later .

    No question that these examples show a continuation of superb image quality but it appears all the companies have hit the edge of current technologies . If I was primarily shooting at base ISO +2EV or less ....the IQ would not cause me to trade up .

    Jono could you comment on the magenta color of your wife s coat ?

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    He already did.

    I've only had time to glance at three of the DNGs so far, but what I see looks great, an improvement on the M9. Just what I expected.

    The other thing I'm interested in will have to wait, like:
    - how well does it image with the Color Skopar 21 and 28?
    - what's the responsiveness like? Shutter lag and write time...
    - how well does the focus peaking work for doing macro work with adapted lenses?

    These re what interest me, not how the camera compares with a D800 or whether it is sensitive enough to photograph the proverbial black cat in a coal mine at night. I don't make cat photos... :-)

    G

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Lots of talk on the new M...Well, I went and edited some of Jono's files from the DNG's posted on LUF and Leica' site, and I would say that I am pleased enough with the output...These are Jono's shots, not mine, and are from the M240....sorry, Jono, if these edits offend at all...















    I can say with conviction that the files are malleable, but not in the same ball park as the MM for BW work...in my mind, the files are more like M9 files for BW conversion than MM files, which have incredible mid tone flexibility....ISO performance of the MM is more to my taste, when pixel peeping, but nevertheless, the M240 will make for a nice BW camera as well, due to its expanded DR...banding is obviously present, but I believe firmware may be at play, from what reading on comments that I have done....

    Apologies again to Jono if I have overstepped my bounds in posting and editing his images...
    Ashwin Rao
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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    He already did.

    I've only had time to glance at three of the DNGs so far, but what I see looks great, an improvement on the M9. Just what I expected.

    The other thing I'm interested in will have to wait, like:
    - how well does it image with the Color Skopar 21 and 28?
    - what's the responsiveness like? Shutter lag and write time...
    - how well does the focus peaking work for doing macro work with adapted lenses?

    These re what interest me, not how the camera compares with a D800 or whether it is sensitive enough to photograph the proverbial black cat in a coal mine at night. I don't make cat photos... :-)

    G
    The new information provided was in the form of DNG files . You could assume that the intent was to allow potential buyers or just interested photographers to compare . Compare to what ? In my case I use 3 systems ..the M9 ,the D800e and the Leica S2 all with Leica lenses .

    Comparing the files provides insights in the potential IQ that can be obtained from the new M . CCD verse CMOS has been the big question. IMHO comparing the D800E provides a good look at Leica glass on CMOS .

    Anyone can fall back on ..only when I have the camera using my lenses on my favorite subjects will I know anything . If so why bother to participate ?

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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    But does it have sweep panorama and art filters?
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  50. #50
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    Re: New M files available from Jono

    The point on the magenta coat is that it looks exactly like the type of IR contamination we had with the M8 ...not like a tint calibration . Its one of those things that will show up in black fabrics . I can t find anywhere that Jono commented on this .

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