How much of a seller's remorse would you get if you sold your Monochrom

[iiiNelson]

...
And what's the so big deal if I don't "see" the value in the monochrom? Why do you have the need to protect it so much??

Probably the same reason you felt the need to bash it. I get if something doesn't work for you. Believe me I do. I went through a Canon dSLR, Micro 4/3, etc before coming to Leica M bodies. Do I think Canon is for me? Absolutely not and I do't have any strong desire to won any of their products. Do I think they're a ripoff because they don't work for me, my shooting style, and in some cases cost "Leica like" money... well no. I think the 1Dx is a great camera but I'd take the M9 (and it's outdated technology) over it everyday for what I do. Doesn't change the fact that it's an outstanding camera.

In the case of the MM there's NOTHING else like it (that I'm aware of) short of the Achromatic MF backs. It's as simple as that If you can't see the difference in the tones between it and a color M (or any other color filtered sensor) then maybe your eyes aren't as sensitive. There is a difference though. Whether or not it's worth $8K is a personal financial choice but for me it will be... eventually. Like you I'm buying a Type 240 but that's more of a need. The MM is a desire for the currently best sensor in 35mm format B&W photography. It is what it is though.

I think we all get it. You don't think it's worth it... FOR YOU.

 

[NB23]

It will probably have a much longer life span because of its uniqueness, and passionate following.

It's funny, I was meeting with another member from the forum today to sell my Mono, and he saw a single tiny scuff on the lens release button, probably a nail mark, that I did not notice. We ended up not doing the deal today to give him more time to think about if he could live with the imperfection; and I realized that it's probably a sign. I was on the fence and yesterday Jono's pictures from the M240 pushed me over. Now I think if it's probably a rushed decision.

I would honor my commitment if he decide to take it but if not, i will not try to sell it again.

He didn't take it because of the tiny invisible mark?
In my experience, I'd now raise the price by 100$ for the lost time and energy. He wants it? 100$ extra.

So this is where we are: a camera not selling because of an invisible mark. The fact that it's a camera is unimportant. It's not about a camera anymore, but about a status.

 

[ashwinrao1]

Before commenting on scam, vs not, one must try the camera to see if it fits one's preference. For me, regardless of output or final printed image, I find the MM to be incredibly flexibile and a fanastic option for black and white work, with tremendous flexibiltiy in the mid tones, that allows one to play with different looks in a way not possibly with the M9. Looking at thousands of images online only suggests that you are at least interested enough to look, but output from websized images is unlikely to reflect what we all see when at home editiing files from this fantastic camera. That being said, having processed images extensively, I find the MM to offer different tonality that is seen best in larger prints or on a calibrated monitor. The high ISO performance is also likely to be tops in the M lineup, even once the M240 is released...

 

[mmbma]

Yeah, he didn't want it because it has a very tiny nail mark on the lens release botton. He said that he'd rather have the scuffs be his own scuffs if he's paying retail price.

I don't agree but I do see his point. When someone buys a 8k camera they want perfection, expecially in a leica. I am more of a user (but I still do try to take care of the camera, just not obsessed with it). So to each his own. I did advertise it as "like new" because I didn't notice it, so my bad. I offered 50 bucks off but I think it's more of an emotional thing. I appreciate his offer and candor but I took it as a sign not to sell. haha. I think we are both happy.

He didn't take it because of the tiny invisible mark?
In my experience, I'd now raise the price by 100$ for the lost time and energy. He wants it? 100$ extra.

So this is where we are: a camera not selling because of an invisible mark. The fact that it's a camera is unimportant. It's not about a camera anymore, but about a status.

 

[dude163]

I hate debating with internet warriors, but here is the first image i saw that made me go

" crud, the Monochrom is for real!" except instead of crud I said sh1t

Leica Event 20120516-102 (1) | Photo This & That

ISO 10000 JPG

 

[docmoore]

Spending 7000$ on it might give me a super special subjective power to see how good it is.

Until now, there's not one single image from all the "brag about your monochrom" threads that made me want one. I looked at over 3000 images and not even one made me go "wow, this monochrom is something special".

I don't believe that paying 7k$ just to have my BW mindset on is within the realm of normal thinking.

This being said, I was simply answering the OP: I'd nevdr regret selling that camera at a good price. Especially sknce the M10 is right around the corner. Yes, M10. Not M-twoforty.

It is surprising how quickly a thread can degenerate into something that feels like it belongs on another site.....not how this forum usually runs.

Couple of observations....and I do own a Monochrom and am sure that you did not like any of my posts....had I realized it was a "brag about your monochrome" thread I would not have posted...I and most persons here rely on information posted to help with questions concerning post process and available raw conversions....recently the Mono and the Sigma DP Merrills have had very few viable options. I took a few of Jono Slack's files and manipulated them and printed the results to see if the camera would work for me...no dealer at that time had one and they were not about to farm it out for my trials.

I dont believe that any of us would willingly pay 7K to have a BW mindset on...actually this camera is a bargain. I passed on the aforementioned Achromatic Phase One back when I upgraded years ago from my P20 back to an H3D II 39. I thought that $47K was a bit much at that time. We pay $7K because Leica prices it so ... and it is not without a bit of trepidation. I have personally been paying Leica's prices since 1983 so I am used to the tariff structure.

The camera is not without a number of great attributes...if they do not appeal to you then it would be a poor fit. I have been scammed many times...however, having owned Leica M6s, M7, MPs, M8, M8.2, M9-P and now the Mono if this is a scam I came out of it without any regrets...it closely replicates the feeling for me of my Mamiya 7, slow BW film and my Hasselblad 343 scanner...oh, how I hated scanning and spotting dust by the end of that relationship.

I took the OP's original question as one reflecting a sense of doubt or buyer's remorse....as if he did not have enough personal experience at this level to decide whether time would increase its value for him personally. And no one will be able to answer that for him. And you are correct that if he gets his money out of the camera he has received a good price.

But you know that.....

My take on it all is that Leica charges a premium to employ skilled engineers and technicians in a very pricey European market and produces products that allow one to buy one copy that should be as close to spec as possible or they will correct it. If you are unwilling to play at that level...please do not impugn the rest of us who do.

Bob

 

[NB23]

The problem is not me as much as all the ultra defensiveness without properly reading what I was actually saying.
Oh, I never said I disliked pics taken with the monochrom (yet you took it that way! It's just that none was taken with a monochrom that wouldn't have been possible with a M9.
That's a subtle but solid difference.

 

[docmoore]

The problem is not me as much as all the ultra defensiveness without properly reading what I was actually saying.
Oh, I never said I disliked pics taken with the monochrom (yet you took it that way! It's just that none was taken with a monochrom that wouldn't have been possible with a M9.
That's a subtle but solid difference.

You are correct, that is a difference...and rereading all the comments I can see the point I think you were intending to get across. Perhaps the edge was perceived incorrectly and things continued on that track.

M9 files will convert to monochrome but the M8 actually did a better job as its poor IR filtration gave a better spread for the red channel(?). I have done all three...and I do a mean color to bw conversion even without Silver Efex 2. Missing the ability to individually change colors does limit ones conversion with the Mono but there really is more detail in the middlle tones that one does not see with the Bayer sensor...not easily seen on the web...and may not be important to most. M9 really breaks at 1250 to 1600...not so for the Monochrom. But I normally shoot at 200 occasionally 800 if I need it...all those years shooting at 25.....

I posit the camera is in one sense a limited output device...one that I am very pleased to work with at the present time.

Regards,

Bob

 

[D&A]

As Bob mentioned, the M8/M8.2 did quite a credible job with B&W imagery precisely due to it's increased sensitivity to IR..which resulted in improved tonality over that generally seen with the M9. Of course the M8/M8.2 doesn't have the high ISO nor increased DR of the MM nor it's acuity, among quite a few other things. Subtle differences in files, espcially seen at web resolutions or even at full Rez on a monitor, often translate to something far more important when that image's output is to print.

How substatial these incremental changes are is dependent on so many factors. The decriminating tastes of the viewer, the subject matter being photographed, lighting, in camera settings necessary to capture the image such as selected ISO and a whole host of other paramters come into play. As has been stated often...sometimes to extract these small but important differences, often results in a substatial outlay of dollars over other choices in cameras.

Just look at lenses for example. Whereas some are content with a decent consumer level lens when used to make a 8x12" print, others find it deficent when compared to the same image made with a pro grade lens that has superior optical performance, even when those differences are small....and that increase in optical performance may not be in the way of sharpness, but simply how the lens draws an image. Some will notice these differences, some will not....some will noticed but think it's not worth the additional cost and some again will think it is.

In photography, subjectivity most often plays such an important role in how we all individualistically perceive and value the charateristics of an image as well as the equipment we use to make that image.

Dave (D&A)

 

[pophoto]

LOL, sorry I'm late to this thread, but someone mentioned something about a blind test! Kinda rules out photography as a whole; no?

 

[docmoore]

Not according to the NY Times:

Visions of a Blind Photographer - NYTimes.com


Bob

 

[Jeff S]

The main difference is one of approach. Leica Ms are desired by some because the rangefinder way of making a photograph strips away distractions like DOF effect of focal length in the viewfinder, or distortion from wide lenses or effects of telephoto compression ... forcing a concentration on what an image is about over what it looks like. Stripping color from the creative decision process is just another shift from "looks like" verses what the photo is "about".

Doesn't matter if you buy that point-of-view, what matters is that others buy it, and therefore buy the camera for what it was designed to do for them. The B&W aesthetic needs no defending, it is well established and extremely long lived ... the MM is just an extension of that time proven photographic discipline so long dominated (and restricted) by B&W film.

If one doesn't "get that", then the MM camera isn't their cup of tea. Nothing wrong about that either ... different strokes for different folks.

As a b/w film and Leica M user for 4 decades, I fully understand your comments. And for many people, it is exactly so. As you say, though, different strokes for different folks. I, for instance, have no trouble using my M8.2 for strictly b/w shooting, and wrapping my mind around that before I leave the house, if b/w is my sole intent. I don't need the MM to create the mindset; years of practice does that. (And no, I don't need to 'chimp' to preview the pic, or to verify exposure except in very unusual lighting circumstances.)

That's not to say, however, that the MM results aren't different or better for some, or that there isn't more enjoyment for some using the MM, or that others can get their head in the b/w mode without needing a specific camera to force the thought process.

Even when I shot almost exclusively b/w in my film days, occasionally I needed to shoot a color scene and so I planned to pack an extra film roll or carried a second camera. That didn't destroy my ability to get right back into the b/w mode shortly thereafter. Life with the M8.2 is no different, just easier to transition. But I've never let the ease of that transition affect my deliberation or thought process. For me, it isn't the roll of film or the sensor that's in control; it's my brain. And I'm sure those who carry both the MM and an M9 (for color, as some have said here and on LUF) have their own rationale.

Different strokes; whatever works.

Jeff

 

[Shashin]

The problem is not me as much as all the ultra defensiveness without properly reading what I was actually saying.
Oh, I never said I disliked pics taken with the monochrom (yet you took it that way! It's just that none was taken with a monochrom that wouldn't have been possible with a M9.
That's a subtle but solid difference.

I thought you said the camera was almost akin to a scam. How exactly are we supposed to read that? Are you saying the owners are deluded? You certainly seem to imply that in your posts. And all this time you simply don't know because you have no experience with the camera.

I am sorry if I appeared defensive. That was not my intention. I was really trying to convey how rude you are.

 

[Jeff S]

Not according to the NY Times:

Visions of a Blind Photographer - NYTimes.com

Many more as well.

Jeff

 

[Shashin]

We ran astrophotographs through a 3-D printer for an exhibition for a blind school group to help them visualize these celestial objects. It was a very interesting exercise.

 

[docmoore]

So whats a thread on GETDPI without a picture to pic at.....

One example cannot convey why I am pleased with the Mono, a couple of hundred begins to do so. However I pulled a picture that has a bit of midtone detail and shadow/highlight/blown out areas. It is about 60 percent of the area of the DNG as I rotated it a bit in LR. I took it out of LR into PS and downsized it for the forum....I then pulled three 100% crops from LR into PS and processed as the initial but no downsizing. Here then are picture and the crops.

Leica Monochrom



Tree Trunk Near Lakes Edge

Crop 1

Crop 2

Crop 3

The crops do not appear as sharp on the forum as in LR or PS at 100%...probably TIF -> JPG compression. I actually upgraded to an Adobe RBG profiled monitor as there is a lot of information I was seeing in print but not on my Apple Cinema profiled display.
This level of information surpasses any 35 mm film I scanned with the Hasselblad 343 and is at the level of a very good MF film scan. Which is enough information to stress my skills and vision.


Bob

 

[Shashin]

A luminance space and a color space are very different. A desaturated color image will not produce the same result as a monochrome image. By simply having a color, you can limit the brightness of an object--color is a psychological response to wavelength and reflects our experience, but is not really reflecting luminance output. Monochrome is not constrained by the limits of color and so presents a different image.

 

[Godfrey]

Ok, okay. Someone give me an MM so I can use it for a couple of years and then sell it to buy an M(240). Then I'll report on how hard the seller's remorse hits me. ;-)

G

 

[docmoore]

Love it Godfrey.

So my plan is to buy another to keep in reserve when this one burns out...

Bob

 

[D&A]

Love it Godfrey.

So my plan is to buy another to keep in reserve when this one burns out...

Bob

Bob, just inquiring if you've received my mailing address for forwarding me that unit when it burns out, appearing to be dead with nothing functioning? This way I can quickly revive it with a simple battery change

Dave (D&A)