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Thread: Evaluating the New M

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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Clearly it isn't.
    Exactly!

    Added for emphasis:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8arvEzHsA8

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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Clearly it isn't.
    So what is it about?
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    I think M is still all about the rangefinder.
    I hope not
    for many users it is all about M lenses , with the new M I shall certainly never use the rangefinder
    Leica M

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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by erick.boileau View Post
    I hope not
    for many users it is all about M lenses , with the new M I shall certainly never use the rangefinder
    I don't know, I like M lenses and all, and I've certainly owned a lot of Leica, ZM and CV lenses for M mount, but, if I was in the market for a camera to primarily use with live view, I'm not sure I'd spend $7K on one from a company who doesn't have the expertise in electronics that some of the Japanese (and Korean) companies have. If that was what I was interested in, I'd likely just go buy a Sony A99 and Leitax some Leica R lenses, Zeiss ZFs, or even just use the native ZAs. Of course, size and weight may be the issue for some, so we'll have to see what the alleged FF NEX camera brings to the table.

    I can understand that live view and movies will be useful for rangefinder users that need to use it occasionally, but I don't have a lot of faith in the M 240 as a liveview only instrument. We're already finding out the disadvantages like refresh rate, magnification zoom, etc. Leica's strength is in the mechanical elements.
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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    I don't know, I like M lenses and all, and I've certainly owned a lot of Leica, ZM and CV lenses for M mount, but, if I was in the market for a camera to primarily use with live view, I'm not sure I'd spend $7K on one from a company who doesn't have the expertise in electronics that some of the Japanese (and Korean) companies have. If that was what I was interested in, I'd likely just go buy a Sony A99 and Leitax some Leica R lenses, Zeiss ZFs, or even just use the native ZAs. Of course, size and weight may be the issue for some, so we'll have to see what the alleged FF NEX camera brings to the table.

    I can understand that live view and movies will be useful for rangefinder users that need to use it occasionally, but I don't have a lot of faith in the M 240 as a liveview only instrument. We're already finding out the disadvantages like refresh rate, magnification zoom, etc. Leica's strength is in the mechanical elements.
    I don't like at all rangefinders but you don't get actually a 24x36 small with that quality of lenses

    the M240 is all what I need with its possibilities to use a 135 mm or a 21
    Leica M

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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by erick.boileau View Post
    I don't like at all rangefinders but you don't get actually a 24x36 small with that quality of lenses

    the M240 is all what I need with its possibilities to use a 135 mm or a 21
    I understand. A compact, FF mirrorless is desired by many. I'm just not sure that Leica is the best to deliver it. If Sony's alleged FF NEX comes, AND it works well with rangefinder glass, then we're really cooking, but I understand that there isn't anything else on the market like that, yet.

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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    I understand. A compact, FF mirrorless is desired by many. I'm just not sure that Leica is the best to deliver it. If Sony's alleged FF NEX comes, AND it works well with rangefinder glass, then we're really cooking, but I understand that there isn't anything else on the market like that, yet.
    I agree for Sony , but when you open the box of the NEX-6 you regret at once your 600
    Maybe Fuji ?
    Leica M
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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by erick.boileau View Post
    I don't like at all rangefinders but you don't get actually a 24x36 small with that quality of lenses

    the M240 is all what I need with its possibilities to use a 135 mm or a 21
    And R lenses like the 15/2.8 for fun and the longer R lenses like the 80-200, APO 180 varieties and APO 280's.

    Also use the 1.4x and 2x APO's and you have many great HQ options for lenses. Leica does not use the term APO lightly.

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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    And R lenses like the 15/2.8 for fun and the longer R lenses like the 80-200, APO 180 varieties and APO 280's.

    Also use the 1.4x and 2x APO's and you have many great HQ options for lenses. Leica does not use the term APO lightly.
    Yes
    And when I compare the files of the Sony NEX-6 with it's super-extra exmor sensor , I prefer the files of the M9
    Leica M

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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by erick.boileau View Post
    Yes
    And when I compare the files of the Sony NEX-6 with it's super-extra exmor sensor , I prefer the files of the M9
    Whose to say you wouldn't prefer FF exmor to the M 240? Sony doesn't give anything up to anyone in terms of CMOS technology. CCD is another matter, of course.

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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    I understand. A compact, FF mirrorless is desired by many. I'm just not sure that Leica is the best to deliver it. If Sony's alleged FF NEX comes, AND it works well with rangefinder glass, then we're really cooking, but I understand that there isn't anything else on the market like that, yet.
    Hi Douglas
    Well the M isn't for sport. But if your after IQ with M lenses, then I'd be really surprised if Sony can do better.
    And the crucial point about the M is that when you don't want to use it as a Mirrorless...... Then it also has a rangefinder. The nicest way of shooting.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Douglas
    Well the M isn't for sport. But if your after IQ with M lenses, then I'd be really surprised if Sony can do better.
    And the crucial point about the M is that when you don't want to use it as a Mirrorless......
    Jono, You and I are in for a surprise. Sony do have sensors that aren' the conventional Bayer matrix which do not require an AA filter. Look at their Cine Alta video cam. A version of this sensor might show up soon in their upcoming A58 (APS-C).

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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Jono, You and I are in for a surprise. Sony do have sensors that aren' the conventional Bayer matrix which do not require an AA filter. Look at their Cine Alta video cam. A version of this sensor might show up soon in their upcoming A58 (APS-C).
    Hi Vivek.
    The trouble with non Bayer CFAs is that they're too complicated to support in RAW so nobody bothers. It seems that even the MM with no filter is too much trouble for most companies. Fuji files are worse. Added to which, who is going to do specific vignetting corrections for Leica lenses?
    All the best

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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    The devil is always in the details. IF Sony can do proper vignette corrections for their own lenses (Nex-7 and 10-24 zoom) it would be revolutionary.

    The cine alta f65 sensor is something special though http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/f...F65_Camera.pdf

    It is differnt than the Fuji X-trans stuff that only a Fuji cam can decipher.

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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Douglas
    Well the M isn't for sport. But if your after IQ with M lenses, then I'd be really surprised if Sony can do better.
    And the crucial point about the M is that when you don't want to use it as a Mirrorless...... Then it also has a rangefinder. The nicest way of shooting.
    Oh, don't worry, I don't have any interest in using M cameras as anything other than rangefinders. Live view on an M doesn't really interest me at all. I'm just a little surprised that some users are interested in using the new M as only a live view camera, but to each his/her own.
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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    Live view on an M doesn't really interest me at all. I'm just a little surprised that some users are interested in using the new M as only a live view camera, but to each his/her own.
    Then how do you use easily, or just normally, a 135 Apo-telyt on the M ?
    how do you use a 21 mm ?
    Leica M

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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by erick.boileau View Post
    Then how do you use easily, or just normally, a 135 Apo-telyt on the M ?
    how do you use a 21 mm ?
    I personally wouldn't use either of those lenses, but, if I did, I'd use an external finder for the 21 and maybe an eyepiece magnifier for the 135.

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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    I personally wouldn't use either of those lenses, but, if I did, I'd use an external finder for the 21 and maybe an eyepiece magnifier for the 135.
    Then you will not use only the rangefinder
    and the eyepiece magnifier 1.4 is not enough (for me) for the 135 mm

    the focus peaking on EVF is a really great feature, you have not to wonder if it is in focus or not, it works alone
    Leica M

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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Douglas
    Well the M isn't for sport. But if your after IQ with M lenses, then I'd be really surprised if Sony can do better.
    And the crucial point about the M is that when you don't want to use it as a Mirrorless...... Then it also has a rangefinder. The nicest way of shooting.
    Leica, a Fuji wannabe.

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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Douglas
    if your after IQ with M lenses, then I'd be really surprised if Sony can do better.
    Me too
    even if the score of Sony is better on dxomark
    Leica M

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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by erick.boileau View Post
    Then you will not use only the rangefinder
    and the eyepiece magnifier 1.4 is not enough (for me) for the 135 mm

    the focus peaking on EVF is a really great feature, you have not to wonder if it is in focus or not, it works alone
    You're were saying that you plan on only using liveview, and that's all that I had concern about, because electronics is not Leica's strength. If you're talking about occasionally using liveview with your lenses at the extremes, then it makes more sense to me. I would still use the rangefinder to focus for a 21 or 135, but, again, I'm not interested in those lenses, myself.

    I've used live view and focus peaking extensively in several cameras. I started shooting the M9 precisely to get away from it, as I don't enjoy using it as my primary way of shooting.
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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by erick.boileau View Post
    Me too
    even if the score of Sony is better on dxomark
    Jono is talking about oblique light rays with M lenses, not total IQ. It'll be interesting to compare the M 240 to Sony's 24mp FF EXMOR. The M9's CCD has a rather different look, but the M 240's CMOS is still a bit up in the air.

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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    I've used live view and focus peaking extensively in several cameras. I started shooting the M9 precisely to get away from it, as I don't enjoy using it as my primary way of shooting.
    If you shoot only with 35 or 50 mm I can understand , but many M users have a second camera
    I want only one system , as good as possible , small and FF that I can take everywhere
    Actually the M is the only way (for me)


    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    Jono is talking about oblique light rays with M lenses, not total IQ. It'll be interesting to compare the M 240 to Sony's 24mp FF EXMOR. The M9's CCD has a rather different look, but the M 240's CMOS is still a bit up in the air.
    As said before I am not sure that there is a noticeable difference between CCD and CMOS

    the M240 CMOSIS without AA and M lenses is all what I need :-)
    Leica M

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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by erick.boileau View Post
    If you shoot only with 35 or 50 mm I can understand , but many M users have a second camera
    I want only one system , as good as possible , small and FF
    Actually the M is the only way (for me)
    I completely understand, Erick. I'm certainly not saying that liveview isn't a useful tool to many, and I don't mind it being included on the M 240. I'm simply saying that our expectations from Leica's implementation should be reasonable, since their expertise is mechanical, not electronic. It's a pretty radical jump to go from the M9, which can barely clear the buffer in a reasonable time, to a full-fledged movie/live view camera in just a few years, especially when they're using a processor that is several years old. I'd imagine that's why we're seeing subpar EVF refresh rates, no scrollable magnification, etc.

    p.s. in terms of sensors, getting an AA removed isn't that big of a deal, if that is the difference you're talking about. The EXMOR in the RX1 looks pretty good to me, AA or not.
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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    I completely understand, Erick. I'm certainly not saying that liveview isn't a useful tool to many, and I don't mind it being included on the M 240. I'm simply saying that our expectations from Leica's implementation should be reasonable, since their expertise is mechanical, not electronic. It's a pretty radical jump to go from the M9, which can barely clear the buffer in a reasonable time, to a full-fledged movie/live view camera in just a few years, especially when they're using a processor that is several years old. I'd imagine that's why we're seeing subpar EVF refresh rates, no scrollable magnification, etc.
    I agree with you on that point, but Leica has already an experience with the S2 and S
    let's see ... anyway my M is already pre-ordered since nearly one year :-) .... and I waaaaaaant it nooooow


    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    in terms of sensors, getting an AA removed isn't that big of a deal, if that is the difference you're talking about. The EXMOR in the RX1 looks pretty good to me, AA or not.
    I am sure that the RX1 is a great camera but why they did it with a fixed lens ?
    Leica M
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    Re: Evaluating the New M

    Quote Originally Posted by erick.boileau View Post
    I am sure that the RX1 is a great camera but why they did it with a fixed lens ?
    Because Sony wanted to. The Japanese have a long tradition of high-end fixed lens cameras. It also kept it compact, which was the idea of the camera.

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