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Thread: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

  1. #51
    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    Although not quite as adaptable as the 6D, the A99 comes to mind, if I were to shoot manual lenses. You could even remove the translucent mirror.
    Exactly what I did works great. IMHO the best manual focus DSLR out there if that's your thing. I asked DL about testing the A99 and he said he would never touch one... His loss I guess and what surprises me about this is he is a huge Zeiss ZF.2 guy which can easily be converted to Sony A mount. IMHO if you want the best of both worlds Zeiss ZF glass with focus peaking / LV an A99 is not a bad option.

    I have been a on again off again subscriber to DL. Right now off again.
    If DL is a landscape photographer, he is one of the few people I know who shoots most of his scenes wide open. I guess he is trying to carve out a " new style" who knows.

    Now his big thing is shooting this "Doll Scene" which again is fine if you are a studio photographer confined to a small working area, yet by his own omission, his tests are inconclusive. Again if he is a landscape photographer he should use landscape scenes as his test subject, not dolls shot from 4 feet.

    I think his coverage of the OM-D was very extensive and thorough and purchased one based on his findings especially when he discovered ETTR, just like Al Gore who invented the Internet , give me a break.

    Hi Leica reviews I think are lacking he only tests there more expensive sumilux and maybe a sumicron here and there, and of course everything wide open, gee I wonder why he can't get accurate focus all the time. I understand that people buy Leica's to shoot wide open, but that's for street photography, not landscapes which he claims to be.

    I am a landscape and sports photographer, when I owned my M9 system, 95% were all shot at infinity at f5.6-F8 and all were perfectly in focus and this was using all of Leica's entry level lenses, very small, easy to handle. The reason why I sold my M9 was no long glass, which I tend to use a lot for my images. Maybe with the the M using R glass will bring me back to Leica, though I would have to sell all my gear just to afford one

    When I shoot sports and need fast and accurate AF, I just pull out a Nikon D3S.

    In conclusion about DL, I find him to be quite an arrogant person, at least in his email responsive's He has to right about everything and I mean everything.
    Yet at the end of the day Im still waiting to see one good landscape image taken from him. Maybe he is hiding them somewhere
    I have yet to ever seen even one good image taken from him, for a guy who goes to Yosemite all the time where one would have to try hard not to get some great images there, I guess he's that guy.

    I think he should come over to this site and look at some great work taken buy some real photographers, I.e Aswhin, Jono, and Tim Ashley just to name a few and there are so many more here.
    Steven Kornreich
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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by kuau View Post
    Exactly what I did works great. IMHO the best manual focus DSLR out there if that's your thing. I asked DL about testing the A99 and he said he would never touch one... His loss I guess and what surprises me about this is he is a huge Zeiss ZF.2 guy which can easily be converted to Sony A mount. IMHO if you want the best of both worlds Zeiss ZF glass with focus peaking / LV an A99 is not a bad option.

    I have been a on again off again subscriber to DL. Right now off again.
    If DL is a landscape photographer, he is one of the few people I know who shoots most of his scenes wide open. I guess he is trying to carve out a " new style" who knows.

    Now his big thing is shooting this "Doll Scene" which again is fine if you are a studio photographer confined to a small working area, yet by his own omission, his tests are inconclusive. Again if he is a landscape photographer he should use landscape scenes as his test subject, not dolls shot from 4 feet.

    I think his coverage of the OM-D was very extensive and thorough and purchased one based on his findings especially when he discovered ETTR, just like Al Gore who invented the Internet , give me a break.

    Hi Leica reviews I think are lacking he only tests there more expensive sumilux and maybe a sumicron here and there, and of course everything wide open, gee I wonder why he can't get accurate focus all the time. I understand that people buy Leica's to shoot wide open, but that's for street photography, not landscapes which he claims to be.

    I am a landscape and sports photographer, when I owned my M9 system, 95% were all shot at infinity at f5.6-F8 and all were perfectly in focus and this was using all of Leica's entry level lenses, very small, easy to handle. The reason why I sold my M9 was no long glass, which I tend to use a lot for my images. Maybe with the the M using R glass will bring me back to Leica, though I would have to sell all my gear just to afford one

    When I shoot sports and need fast and accurate AF, I just pull out a Nikon D3S.

    In conclusion about DL, I find him to be quite an arrogant person, at least in his email responsive's He has to right about everything and I mean everything.
    Yet at the end of the day Im still waiting to see one good landscape image taken from him. Maybe he is hiding them somewhere
    I have yet to ever seen even one good image taken from him, for a guy who goes to Yosemite all the time where one would have to try hard not to get some great images there, I guess he's that guy.

    I think he should come over to this site and look at some great work taken buy some real photographers, I.e Aswhin, Jono, and Tim Ashley just to name a few and there are so many more here.
    Steve

    Agree completely that correspondence with LLoyd can bring out his worst . He has IMHO hurt his reputation by sensationalizing his findings and generalizing on his conclusions as to whats really important . However it appears that this is creating a bias to your perspective on his tests .

    My POV on reading any test is to "consider the source " they all have a bias ..which they might call a personal perspective . We all do ?

    As I have stated before ..I find his tests some of the best out there . His use of the dolls as just one of his tests ..is as good as I ve seen . Its essentially the same as Sean Reid uses and its the only way I know to really see the subtle aspects of IQ . In particular its useful in understanding how color tone separation is affected by equipment choices and ISO s selected . He is shooting something where he can control the variables ....tripod ,focus accuracy ,aperture selected etc. Sean Reid uses the same technique and takes 6 captures to insure he has accurate focus .

    Real world doesn t cut it for this type of test because you can t control enough of the variables .

    His second most used target is the front of the University . This is at or near infinity with a target that exposes sharpness across the entire file . He uses the exact same camera and then provides A/B comparisons . His care in insuring that he has controlled the variables right thru his post processing seems pretty darn good .

    The third method of testing are his "real world examples " . He goes to locations he is familiar with so that he can repeat his protocol . Take the D800 as an example he provided 6-8 field examples ..different situations that gave him insights .

    While I agree that his conclusions can be irrelevant and misleading ..I find his tests well done and insightful .

    Its difficult to discuss his testing methodologies ....when what most seem to take issue with relate to his personality and his overstated conclusions .

    Really is posting your best work a precondition for being an authority on IQ ? Probably another topic .

    I have a bias to my posts .....I look for those little small insights that can improve both my enjoyment and quality of my work . Not sure where the value is in discussion the personalities ..but its a forum right .
    Roger Dunham
    http://rogerdunham.com/
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    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Roger, I agree with you completely.

    I just wish he was more consistent in his testing methodology.

    Sure the dolls is a great test for testing out a body, though I don't think it's the best choice for lenses as he openly admits this test does not tell us the whole story and how a lens performs at a distant. He needs to do both. I liked when he went out to the University like he did with his extensive D800 evaluation.

    Though for other camera / lens combos he does not. Don't get me wrong I am sure it's a huge hassle yet, I thought that's what we / I am paying him for.

    He is very methodical in his approach and indeed does a very good job.

    For me to stay a paid subscriber, which I don't mind paying for creditable / non bias testing, though at some point I think this whole thing has gone to his head / ego and whatever he feels is the best, well then it must be the best at least according to Lloyd.
    Steven Kornreich
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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Steve

    I not found any tests that cover all the dimensions one might consider . No question Lloyd prefers FF DSLR s over any other format . He also is catering to the market as he perceives it ..which is still primarily Nikon/Canon/Sony and moving rapidly to mirrorless less than FF formats .

    My guess is that 80% of his shooting is test oriented ..seems like every trip he makes is testing a bunch of new stuff . But his personal work all seems to be landscape . In this context live view for example is really important . I shoot street and travel rarely use my tripods ..when am I going to use live view . He wants flat field and corner to corner sharpness ...I could care less . Sure I want my wide angles to be sharp on the edges ..but when would I be looking for edge sharpness at less than f4 -5.6 ...I worry about depth of field way before I am concerned about how the lens performs on the edge .

    Point being we shoot different things and thus our requirements tend to be different . So I just consider the source and how they report .

    It will be interesting to look at the reviews for the new M when they are complete . When we can see LLoyd s review up against ,Michael Reichman ,Sean Reid,Steve Huff and Ken Rockwell and maybe even Guy/Jack ? ..... you know I bet I can write their conclusions right now .

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    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Bottom line for me is this,

    I know there is no "perfect" testing solution out there, like you said what maybe important to me is not so much important to you. So I guess we just have to accept the way things are.

    My issue for myself is since I live many hours away from any kind of "Pro" camera shop, I have to on some degree depend on people like Lloyd, Sean, Michael, and of course Guy and Jack for there reviews on very expensive pieces of equipment.

    I guess what got me interested in this thread was how some people pointed out that Lloyd was a Landscape shooter, which maybe the case, yet his testing methodology at this point does not exactly support that. I also believe that a person who puts up a website, asks for money, should be a photographer, i.e. Michael Reichman over at LuLu,
    I trust his reviews because he shoots what I like to shoot and he does not even charge, I support his efforts by purchasing his excellent training videos on LR for example.

    If I was a street photographer, I would be a Sean Reid subscriber, because I know that's what he does, a range finder kind of guy.

    At the end of the day it's all good and everyone is entitled to his or her opinions.

    Case closed....
    Steven Kornreich
    www.kuau.com

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    If Leica owners already have their favorite lenses, know those lenses, like those lenses, believe they are the best lenses then why buy into a whole new system even if it is cheaper.

    On the other hand if Canon owners have decided on that brand over Nikon then you are preaching to that choir. To them the 6D might be a good second camera to the 5D3.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    I think a better test will be (when the M-240 comes out) the M-240 versus the Sony RX-1, as both will be FF, 24MP. I am interested to know how the Leica with a Summicron 35 will test against the Zeiss f2 on the RX-1 even though the Leica costs 3 times the Sony. The big drawback to the Sony in my mind is the fixed lens although for nearly silent street photography (leaf shutter) it can have its place in many a camera bag. LL's Reichmann wrote an interesting piece on it.

    It will be inevitable that this test will be much sought after mostly by photographers and Sony alike. Although comparing a $3k Sony against a $10k Leica setup seems unfair, in my mind, it can only be a winner for Sony to have the luxury of being compared to a Leica.

    Personally I can no longer ignore Sony product in view of this latest addition to their line up. Being a new 5D3 user I must say its AF is a delight to use and I keep asking myself why did I not add an AF camera to my lineup earlier, even though my MF P45+ V mount is way ahead of anything else I have for landscape use.

    As for DL, I thought his rant about the MM was over the top and did not renew after that as I'd rather put the $50 toward a flash card which has more lasting value to me than reading 12 months of possible rants. His site offers a very thorough list of equipment. While getting into the M9 and digital cameras I found his knowledge base worthwhile for me as to lens selection.

    In the back of my mind I seem to feel DL has something against Leica because its Leica. He most always seems to come up something wrong with whatever Leica he is "testing". I guess if I were riding a bike up in the Bristlecone forest I would need an AF to "assist" me in nailed focus photography. Although since being there in late 2012, I found the altitude invigorating and could nail my M9 and MM focus points just fine even though I live at 18 feet above sea level.
    I have shot a lot with the RX-1 and about 40 frames so far with the m240 with 35 lux and though I have absolutely not done comparative tests, I have a feeling that when I do, the RX-1 will be technically better at this particular task, purely in terms of results rather than of usability, system extensibility, price, shooting style preference etc. The Sony files are extremely good as we now all know: the Leica will be less forgiving and need more care on the part of the photographer.

    As several others here have observed, what matters most is the individual photographer's needs, style and subjects. But for a head to head in a very specific race, I think I know what my bet would be, though for nearly all imaginable uses, both systems will be far better than good enough for nearly all photographers...

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    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Lens reviews are tough.
    I hope you all know that it is not just about color or sharpness or bokeh, or whatever. Folks have favorite lenses for favorite applications. For example, I use different lenses for interiors than I use on models than I use on landscapes.
    Honestly, there are very few lenses that have been made in the last 40 years that is not good for something (other than bad copies of course).
    Nobody but you can figure out what suites your style except you.
    -bob

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by kuau View Post
    Bottom line for me is this,

    I know there is no "perfect" testing solution out there, like you said what maybe important to me is not so much important to you. So I guess we just have to accept the way things are.

    My issue for myself is since I live many hours away from any kind of "Pro" camera shop, I have to on some degree depend on people like Lloyd, Sean, Michael, and of course Guy and Jack for there reviews on very expensive pieces of equipment.

    I guess what got me interested in this thread was how some people pointed out that Lloyd was a Landscape shooter, which maybe the case, yet his testing methodology at this point does not exactly support that. I also believe that a person who puts up a website, asks for money, should be a photographer, i.e. Michael Reichman over at LuLu,
    I trust his reviews because he shoots what I like to shoot and he does not even charge, I support his efforts by purchasing his excellent training videos on LR for example.

    If I was a street photographer, I would be a Sean Reid subscriber, because I know that's what he does, a range finder kind of guy.

    At the end of the day it's all good and everyone is entitled to his or her opinions.

    Case closed....
    If you dig dipper into LLoyd's reviews you'll see that he almost always tests gear out in the field in places like Yosemite, the High Sierra and so on. The problem with shooting comparison tests in these locations is that every time you venture out with a new piece of gear the conditions will be different. A studio is the only way to ensure the same conditions when trying to assess differences in IQ, like color and fine detail reproduction, and so on.

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    I gave DL a year before I bought my first Leica, an M8. I added his Leica section to my subscription at that point and it didn't take long to realize that he didn't really like rangefinders and didn't have the patience to learn to focus them well. With all due respect to landscape photographers, landscapes are one of the easiest subjects to focus because they don't move much, you can use a tripod, and stop down to have extended DOF. How would he ever be able to focus doing street photography? I let my subscription lapse and have not looked back. Of course, he gets attention with these "comparison" tests... but not from me.

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by zombii View Post
    I gave DL a year before I bought my first Leica, an M8. I added his Leica section to my subscription at that point and it didn't take long to realize that he didn't really like rangefinders and didn't have the patience to learn to focus them well. With all due respect to landscape photographers, landscapes are one of the easiest subjects to focus because they don't move much, you can use a tripod, and stop down to have extended DOF. How would he ever be able to focus doing street photography? I let my subscription lapse and have not looked back. Of course, he gets attention with these "comparison" tests... but not from me.
    I am also done with Digilloyd! I subscribed in order to learn why Zeiss lenses are better than Nikkors and I actually bought a .4/35 ZF.2 because of his praises, but I should have bought a Nikkor or Sigma instead. He also changes his opinion quite often, kind of camaeleon like ....

    WRT to Leica M versus Canon 6D I do not even pay attention any more. Good luck to him anyway!
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