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Thread: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

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    M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    This recent post on Lloyd Chamber's blog makes for interesting reading:

    diglloyd blog - With the Upgrade in Lens Performances, What About Canon 6D vs Leica M240?

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    IMO, based on what and how he shoots, this guy didn't need a Rangefinder in the first place.

    My assumption is that to most, the new M-240 will still be primarily a Rangefinder, but offer options to expand usage and make it more versatile on occasion ... not unlike Leica has done in past with all the do-dads one could buy for the older film Ms like the Visoflex, etc. Not that those bolt on do-dads were directly competitive with the advent of 35mm SLRs ... just added value to their Rangefinder.

    BTW, I have a few friends working with the new 24-70-II ... LLoyd must have tested a much, much, much better copy then they have is all I can say.

    -Marc
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    Senior Member Ario Arioldi's Avatar
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Comparing a RF camera with an AF DSLR does not make much sense, in my opinion.
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    When he proclaimed that the MM is a $#%T product, I knew for sure he has no clue about anything.
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    IMO, based on what and how he shoots, this guy didn't need a Rangefinder in the first place.

    My assumption is that to most, the new M-240 will still be primarily a Rangefinder, but offer options to expand usage and make it more versatile on occasion ... not unlike Leica has done in past with all the do-dads one could buy for the older film Ms like the Visoflex, etc. Not that those bolt on do-dads were directly competitive with the advent of 35mm SLRs ... just added value to their Rangefinder.

    BTW, I have a few friends working with the new 24-70-II ... LLoyd must have tested a much, much, much better copy then they have is all I can say.

    -Marc
    Marc, I shared precisely these sentiments when I read his review of the M9. He kept banging on about needing live view for critical focus on images where he could clearly use hyper focal. People like him are dangerous with a bit of knowledge.

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    When he first started 3-4 years ago, he was quite objective. I even paid for a 1 year subscription. But I think he recently lost his marbles
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    I can't wait to see all these new higher spec cheap as chips CaNikon lenses coming out to better Leica's lenses - I have to say I am quite amazed at the ( apparent fact?) that the new zoom from Canon is better than certain Leica primes....what a pity we can't all just bolt the old 24-70 Canon zoom and be done with all Leica lenses in one fell swoop...for pocket change too!!

    have to go now - because I PMSL and hurt myself whilst ROFLMAO...

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ario Arioldi View Post
    Comparing a RF camera with an AF DSLR does not make much sense, in my opinion.
    but comparing final pictures maybe ?
    + cost , size , and personal taste

    Many M users (or new users) don't buy a M for the rangefinder
    Leica M

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    just yesterday I shot Canon (5dIII) and Leica (MM and S2) in same conditions again and found that while the Canon delivers very good IQ the Leica delivers better and more special IQ.
    IMO the Leica M excels even with Summarits and Summicrons, you dont need the new apo-summicron.
    The 5DIII excels in AF speed and flexibility by far and also delivers very nice IQ.
    The good AF was THE reason for me to get a DSLR and thats why I would prefer the 5dIII over the 6d. The 24-70II seems to be indeed a fine lens.

    I agree with all that these are 2 very different cameras. Different enough for me to use both.

    The author forgot that the 24-70 does not really replace a 21mm lens, so he should add the Zeiss 21/2.8 to his calculation.
    Last edited by Paratom; 18th February 2013 at 10:32.

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Just confirms my opinion of this bloke - He is aiming to outdo Ken Rockwell - and succeeding.
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    It's fairly obvious from Digiloyd's experience that the 6D 24-70 zoom kit is vastly superior to the M240 alternative

    Didn't see that coming, better cancel that pre-order and let some other sucker move up on the wait list.

    Glad I read this thread......the things you learn on the internet,

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Let me provide a different perspective . I never rely on LLyods conclusions his shooting requirements are completely different than mine . He enjoys hiking or biking to remote locations and shoots primarily landscapes. My work is almost all street shooting with a dose of travel work (postcards). So we have different requirements .

    When he thinks about a Leica M he is interested in small,light weight (because he is hiking in the mountains ) and the access to the superb M lenses. To get the most out of the M glass he wants LV as do most landscape photographers (nothing wrong about wanting to have the very best focusing ). I could go on but a Leica M is a high quality portable system . He also raves about the CCD aesthetic and the brilliance he can achieve with the best Leica M glass.

    He is not a RF advocate and as Marc indicated above ..he doesn t not appear to appreciate RF shooting . But thats probably because of the type of work he routinely does .

    His tests are very thorough ..some of the best I ve found anywhere . Exceptional consistency in both taking the test shots and processing them . He also provides insights into the tests themselves ..like concerns about field curvature or focus shift biasing his examples .

    Couldn t agree more that he is frequently outspoken on details that most will never see. Heck I look sometimes several times to even see what he is talking about . He does seem to enjoy taking confrontational positions and this after a while creates a question about the value of his reporting .

    But ..I think you maybe "throwing the baby out with the bath water " by discarding his work as either inaccurate or somehow flawed . I don t have to agree with his conclusions to appreciate his testing and insights .
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Let me provide a different perspective . I never rely on LLyods conclusions his shooting requirements are completely different than mine . He enjoys hiking or biking to remote locations and shoots primarily landscapes. My work is almost all street shooting with a dose of travel work (postcards). So we have different requirements .

    When he thinks about a Leica M he is interested in small,light weight (because he is hiking in the mountains ) and the access to the superb M lenses. To get the most out of the M glass he wants LV as do most landscape photographers (nothing wrong about wanting to have the very best focusing ). I could go on but a Leica M is a high quality portable system . He also raves about the CCD aesthetic and the brilliance he can achieve with the best Leica M glass.

    He is not a RF advocate and as Marc indicated above ..he doesn t not appear to appreciate RF shooting . But thats probably because of the type of work he routinely does .

    His tests are very thorough ..some of the best I ve found anywhere . Exceptional consistency in both taking the test shots and processing them . He also provides insights into the tests themselves ..like concerns about field curvature or focus shift biasing his examples .

    Couldn t agree more that he is frequently outspoken on details that most will never see. Heck I look sometimes several times to even see what he is talking about . He does seem to enjoy taking confrontational positions and this after a while creates a question about the value of his reporting .

    But ..I think you maybe "throwing the baby out with the bath water " by discarding his work as either inaccurate or somehow flawed . I don t have to agree with his conclusions to appreciate his testing and insights .
    I agree with you completely. Careful controlled testing is very hard work and he does appear to be very diligent and careful with full explanations for what he is seeing along with well chosen examples.
    V/r John

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Some things he suggests to the writer seem quite reasonable, e.g., that he actually try out the Canon system to see if it suits his needs, rather than just pushing his own POV. But, at other times, he just seems foolish, as when he states that the 50 APO Summicron is a 'must have' lens, as if something like the 50 Summilux asph (or a host of other options) would be totally unworthy.

    I find most of these types of comparisons amusing in any case, as I doubt most people could guess the camera or lens used by looking at a print in the first place. There are just too many variables in the entire workflow from camera to print, and too many different individual needs and preferences, to get so hung up on absolute statements about camera/lens choices.

    It's unusual to find reviewers (like Sean Reid, for instance) who provide objective analyses, clearly state their own needs and preferences, and let the reader draw his/her own conclusions.

    Jeff
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Jeff,

    I too appreciate Sean Reid's reviews but they are lacking in what they could be due to his selection of Adobe Flash for presentation. As a friend of Sean's I have tried to encourage him to use a different format but he is concerned with having his material used and copied and feels that until a new format offers him the equivalent security he can't change. In addition to not being compatible with all of my Apple hardware, the inability to easily see larger images or 100% images means that I can't always see what he sees to draw his conclusion. Lloyd makes it easy to see 100% images and that really helps when he is making a visual point. Both have their prejudices. Sean likes RF viewing and Lloyd doesn't, Sean like street and Lloyd likes landscape. Both present relatively objective reviews when reviewing equipment. The thing I miss on Sean's reviews is the lack of using targets other than vegetables such as portraits, and landscapes along with test targets in the lab. For example, I can't determine skin tone from vegetable shots or small street shots. In my opinion they both do very good work and their work compliments one another. I don't always agree with either of them but that is where personal experience, preference and bias come into play.
    V/r John
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
    Just confirms my opinion of this bloke - He is aiming to outdo Ken Rockwell - and succeeding.
    I confess that even as a subscriber I've gone beyond the point of Diglloyd fatigue.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    For my purposes, Leica M seems to be an ideal landscape camera. The system is smaller and lighter than FF DSLR (especially with wide lenses) and does not require heavy tripod. The sensor is optimized for best color and resolution - both important for landscape. Electronic viewfinder probably offers superior focusing compared to LV.
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Let me provide a different perspective . I never rely on LLyods conclusions his shooting requirements are completely different than mine . He enjoys hiking or biking to remote locations and shoots primarily landscapes. My work is almost all street shooting with a dose of travel work (postcards). So we have different requirements .

    When he thinks about a Leica M he is interested in small,light weight (because he is hiking in the mountains ) and the access to the superb M lenses. To get the most out of the M glass he wants LV as do most landscape photographers (nothing wrong about wanting to have the very best focusing ). I could go on but a Leica M is a high quality portable system . He also raves about the CCD aesthetic and the brilliance he can achieve with the best Leica M glass.

    He is not a RF advocate and as Marc indicated above ..he doesn t not appear to appreciate RF shooting . But thats probably because of the type of work he routinely does .

    His tests are very thorough ..some of the best I ve found anywhere . Exceptional consistency in both taking the test shots and processing them . He also provides insights into the tests themselves ..like concerns about field curvature or focus shift biasing his examples .

    Couldn t agree more that he is frequently outspoken on details that most will never see. Heck I look sometimes several times to even see what he is talking about . He does seem to enjoy taking confrontational positions and this after a while creates a question about the value of his reporting .

    But ..I think you maybe "throwing the baby out with the bath water " by discarding his work as either inaccurate or somehow flawed . I don t have to agree with his conclusions to appreciate his testing and insights .
    Just as an example: I could never duplicate the AF-problems he described to have with the S2.
    When I e-mailed him about it he seemed not much interested to find out if anything had changed after his test of this particular S2.

    If it happens 2-3 times that someone writes 10 pages about a prodcuct but some of his main findings are totally different from what you, as a user of the same product find out - than one looses trust in the methology of a reviewer.

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    I am at a loss to understand the patience of some of the folks who pay to read such crap.

    Ken Rockwell, at least, is open about what he spews out and everything he spews is visible to one and all.

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    The moment I wrote him off as a serious voice was when he was gobsmacked to find that a deep red filter produces focus shift on a non-Apo lens and promised to do "further testing on this issue" Basics 1 of photography....
    Being constitutionally unable to focus manually does not inspire much confidence either.
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Diglloyd is just expressing his opinions and impressions.

    Just as posters on this forum do. One does not have to read them let alone subscribe to anyone's site. But being uncivil in one's disagreement is something I would not condone. This again is just my opinion.

    What if he compared two different cameras. It happens here all the time.
    A D800/D800 E was the hen's teeth...comparing it with a MF.

    I am sure more people read what Rockwell or Chambers writes than most of us here. And they get paid for it too!

    Good money generating operation they have going, irrespective what the photographic elite here thinks.

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    Diglloyd is just expressing his opinions and impressions.

    Just as posters on this forum do. One does not have to read them let alone subscribe to anyone's site. But being uncivil in one's disagreement is something I would not condone. This again is just my opinion.

    ....
    I think the difference is that his reviews read like they were scientific based facts, not an opinion. This can be misleading.
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Nobody has forced anyone to contribute or subscribe to any site. Your money, your choice. The man's site, his opinions. Don't like his opinions, tough luck..no sweat of his back.

    Just be happy. With your photography and your opinions.

    Don't like it don't waste bw giving him more coverage than he might deserve.

    He might be much lesser dumb than it would appear, to at least generate this much traffic and comments.

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    I think the difference is that his reviews read like they were scientific based facts, not an opinion. This can be misleading.
    Really?

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    No matter if one likes Diglloyd or not (I stopped trusting most of his reviews and will not subscribe to any of his offers any longer).

    But I still see severe issues with the new M240 coming. And the main issue is that Leica announces something which is still completely immature at the point of announcement, and then it takes another year before the first product hits the market and - I actually do hope it will work better for the M240 - but I doubt and they need another year to stabilize the product.

    Biggest issue for me is the steep price to be paid and then testing around for another year (at least) to have a product which works up to spec's.

    And in that regards his conclusion with 6D and whatever high quality lens (or even other vendors camera like D600,.....) cannot be really called to be too wrong.

    Still I do hope the best for the M240 when it hits the market.

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Just as an example: I could never duplicate the AF-problems he described to have with the S2.
    When I e-mailed him about it he seemed not much interested to find out if anything had changed after his test of this particular S2.

    If it happens 2-3 times that someone writes 10 pages about a prodcuct but some of his main findings are totally different from what you, as a user of the same product find out - than one looses trust in the methology of a reviewer.
    Agree ..I have emailed him as well. His point on the S2 was valid . It will focus on the highest contrast subject thats placed inside the AF circle . If you have the right test subject you can replicate it easily . (It was common knowledge to the guy s at Dale Photo and I replicated with 3 different S2 s ). It was very easy to replicate on the Golden Gate bridge where he tested the S2 .

    This is a good example of "learnings " as once I realized the issue ..I just adjusted my placement of the AF circle . To my knowledge this is a function of only having a large AF point (no spot AF) and can t be corrected . The system is very precise but prone to operator error in certain situations. Personally I adjust the AF with a quick MF to verify when I encounter fine detail with a high contrast background .

    Leica just doesn t support testing by anyone (to my knowledge ) . Early reviews are many times critical of things that ultimately get resolved with firmware and updates to raw conversions . DL gets his test equipment from BH .

    Its pretty obvious that DL subjective conclusions are inflammatory (irritating) ..but his detail testing is as good as I ve found anyplace . (and a whole lot more fact based ).

    Please recognize that I am not supporting DL conclusions ....but pointing out that if you want detail short of testing your own equipment ....he brings a lot of value .

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I am at a loss to understand the patience of some of the folks who pay to read such crap.

    Ken Rockwell, at least, is open about what he spews out and everything he spews is visible to one and all.
    I am at a complete loss to understand why you continue to post such insulting comments .

    I really enjoy the arrogance of those posting that always fall back on...."only when I personally test the new gear will i know" . Seems like a restatement of the obvious . Only when you use the gear in situations that are important to your photography will you know for sure .

    Check the buy sell for the number of "mistakes" ? Personally I don t enjoy visiting the post office to send stuff back or using ebay to sell stuff I should not have purchased in the first place .

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    If that is insulting to you I will gladly apologize. *However*, keep in my mind that your repeated endorsement of the "testing methods" is an insult to many, including me. Also, understand that there is no personal malice intended toward the "reviewer" in question or any of his subscribers. The discussion (from my side) is about this whole fiasco of the "tests" for sale and the free opinions in a blog that I can reject and counter.

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    I think a better test will be (when the M-240 comes out) the M-240 versus the Sony RX-1, as both will be FF, 24MP. I am interested to know how the Leica with a Summicron 35 will test against the Zeiss f2 on the RX-1 even though the Leica costs 3 times the Sony. The big drawback to the Sony in my mind is the fixed lens although for nearly silent street photography (leaf shutter) it can have its place in many a camera bag. LL's Reichmann wrote an interesting piece on it.

    It will be inevitable that this test will be much sought after mostly by photographers and Sony alike. Although comparing a $3k Sony against a $10k Leica setup seems unfair, in my mind, it can only be a winner for Sony to have the luxury of being compared to a Leica.

    Personally I can no longer ignore Sony product in view of this latest addition to their line up. Being a new 5D3 user I must say its AF is a delight to use and I keep asking myself why did I not add an AF camera to my lineup earlier, even though my MF P45+ V mount is way ahead of anything else I have for landscape use.

    As for DL, I thought his rant about the MM was over the top and did not renew after that as I'd rather put the $50 toward a flash card which has more lasting value to me than reading 12 months of possible rants. His site offers a very thorough list of equipment. While getting into the M9 and digital cameras I found his knowledge base worthwhile for me as to lens selection.

    In the back of my mind I seem to feel DL has something against Leica because its Leica. He most always seems to come up something wrong with whatever Leica he is "testing". I guess if I were riding a bike up in the Bristlecone forest I would need an AF to "assist" me in nailed focus photography. Although since being there in late 2012, I found the altitude invigorating and could nail my M9 and MM focus points just fine even though I live at 18 feet above sea level.

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    What is all the hub-bub about?

    We are all free to peruse any review of any camera we want, multi reviews if we wish ... paid or not. Isn't the primary purpose to just get an indication of possible strengths and weakness (which all cameras have) so we know what to look for going in?

    I waited over a year to get a S2P. I tested the camera in person, read various reviews and comparative tests prior to buying ... including LLoyd's (which was worth the money for such an expansive purchase, (but a subscription I didn't renew) ... plus followed Leica's propaganda, watched the IQ of early adopters as they posted images, and even the side-by-side Guy and Jack did here on the forum.

    Collectively, it just gave me a heads up on stuff to watch for when shooting the subjects I shoot, the way I shoot them. I didn't set out to replicate some flaw like the S2 AF, I just shot normally and watched if it happened to me (it didn't, and in 2+ years still has never happened).

    Also doesn't mean a review will catch everything, even BIG GLARING issues like M8 magenta blacks, which I saw in the first ten minutes of shooting and then reported on the LUF.

    Buyer Beware.

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Lloyd is entitled to his choice--it is not like he said to get a cell phone. The SLR is a very good camera type. He is also just giving his opinion to a person looking for some guidance--he does not have to take the advice either. In some sense, the choice is very practical and the person probably is not a professional nor has very much experience. I find experienced photographers never ask others what cameras they should buy. Baring my first "real" camera in 1980, a Nikon FM, I have always done the choosing myself.

    Why do we take it so personally if someone prefers a different camera than we do?

    What I find interesting is the new Leica 50mm $7000 f/2 lens is a must have. I did not realize the other 50mm lenses by the red dot company were that poor.

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Why do we take it so personally if someone prefers a different camera than we do?
    I don't think people are taking his opinion personally as they are disagreeing with his blanket statement about certain products that he personally found didn't work for him.

    It's kind of like where people spread around (erroneously) that the Pentax 645D isn't up to the same standards as other MF cameras and I've seen plenty amazing images from the 645D. It didn't work for some or they preferred to go with a mainstream MF brand like Hasselblad, Phase One, Leica, etc. but continuously make comments about how bad the Pentax was because they didn't like it.

    I think after a while people spreading bad information or a camera developing an unwarranted bad reputation just bothers some people more than others. I can understand that from the point of view that it potentially enhances a mob mentality towards a particular brand that isn't helpful to a neutral amateur or a person just looking for objective advice on a particular product. Case in point I steered a friend of mind away from an M9 and toward a D600 for their first digital camera. Not because I don't love my M9 (I truly feel its the best camera available for me) but because of what their needs were (all around camera for travel, macro, zoom lenses, lowlight ability, FF, wide angle shots at time and not too large.) I think DL tried to do this same thing but with additional commentary that wasn't needed or pertinent to truly helping the person asking the question.
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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    If that is insulting to you I will gladly apologize. *However*, keep in my mind that your repeated endorsement of the "testing methods" is an insult to many, including me. Also, understand that there is no personal malice intended toward the "reviewer" in question or any of his subscribers. The discussion (from my side) is about this whole fiasco of the "tests" for sale and the free opinions in a blog that I can reject and counter.

    We agree on the subject . Not sure how supporting a different view is insulting . Agree we should stay polite ..my apology.

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
    Just confirms my opinion of this bloke - He is aiming to outdo Ken Rockwell - and succeeding.
    All these threads do is send more traffic their way. This is the established Ken Rockwell business plan...stir up controversy and get traffic. Perhaps DL is using the same strategy.It's certainly worked for KR.
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by wentbackward View Post
    Marc, I shared precisely these sentiments when I read his review of the M9. He kept banging on about needing live view for critical focus on images where he could clearly use hyper focal. People like him are dangerous with a bit of knowledge.
    I have found many so-called experts that have no experience with manual focus cameras, just don't understand how to use them. As a result they are unqualified in making comparisons let alone recommendations. I'm not saying he's not a good source of information on new cameras - just not always as objective as he should be when it comes to more seasoned professional techniques on the high end of what we do.

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    What is all the hub-bub about?

    We are all free to peruse any review of any camera we want, multi reviews if we wish ... paid or not. Isn't the primary purpose to just get an indication of possible strengths and weakness (which all cameras have) so we know what to look for going in?

    I waited over a year to get a S2P. I tested the camera in person, read various reviews and comparative tests prior to buying ... including LLoyd's (which was worth the money for such an expansive purchase, (but a subscription I didn't renew) ... plus followed Leica's propaganda, watched the IQ of early adopters as they posted images, and even the side-by-side Guy and Jack did here on the forum.

    Collectively, it just gave me a heads up on stuff to watch for when shooting the subjects I shoot, the way I shoot them. I didn't set out to replicate some flaw like the S2 AF, I just shot normally and watched if it happened to me (it didn't, and in 2+ years still has never happened).

    Also doesn't mean a review will catch everything, even BIG GLARING issues like M8 magenta blacks, which I saw in the first ten minutes of shooting and then reported on the LUF.

    Buyer Beware.

    -Marc
    I didnt mean that I have any problem with such kind of reviews, I only think it can be misleading. Sometimes it sounds like a product is flawed, but maybe it is not.
    In my case after reading the review about the S2 I expected a flawed AF, when I got a test S2 for a weekend later I was soo surprized how precise the AF worked. I dont even doubt that it is possible to replicate the problem. I wont spend my time with replicating problems though.
    What I was trying to say ... I personally dont give much on such reviews any more. I am much more interested to read posts how good a certain products works for people in real life, even better talk to people who use a product a lot, and then try myself. I admit I still do read some of the reviews, and enjoy reading.

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    What is all the hub-bub about?

    We are all free to peruse any review of any camera we want, multi reviews if we wish ... paid or not. Isn't the primary purpose to just get an indication of possible strengths and weakness (which all cameras have) so we know what to look for going in?

    I waited over a year to get a S2P. I tested the camera in person, read various reviews and comparative tests prior to buying ... including LLoyd's (which was worth the money for such an expansive purchase, (but a subscription I didn't renew) ... plus followed Leica's propaganda, watched the IQ of early adopters as they posted images, and even the side-by-side Guy and Jack did here on the forum.

    Collectively, it just gave me a heads up on stuff to watch for when shooting the subjects I shoot, the way I shoot them. I didn't set out to replicate some flaw like the S2 AF, I just shot normally and watched if it happened to me (it didn't, and in 2+ years still has never happened).

    Also doesn't mean a review will catch everything, even BIG GLARING issues like M8 magenta blacks, which I saw in the first ten minutes of shooting and then reported on the LUF.

    Buyer Beware.

    -Marc

    I always say look at all the reviews. Learn something from them and try it if you can. Than at least you have done the homework and make a call.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I always say look at all the reviews. Learn something from them and try it if you can. Than at least you have done the homework and make a call.
    I agree and I do the same but many don't. On one hand there are the compulsive buyers and on the other hand there are those who are somewhat ignorant - not entirely of their own discourse but simply by listening to an expert who sounds like they know what they're talking about or at least knows more than they do.

    This happens in all aspects of life and in every profession sadly.
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by edwardkaraa View Post
    When he first started 3-4 years ago, he was quite objective. I even paid for a 1 year subscription. But I think he recently lost his marbles
    I paid for the Guide to Zeiss several years ago and I am a subscriber of the the Guide to Leica right now.
    I would like to see more updates and hands on tests in the area I am paying for, but I found the lens reviews thorough and very helpful. The information on particular lenses (those he actually tested) is more complete and less biased than what I was able to find on the free internet (forums, blogs, etc.). The value for me is in the hands on tests and comparisons and their demonstrated results. The opinions about future cameras - sometimes I agree (likely more often than most rangefinder photography veterans), sometimes I don't.

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    I didnt mean that I have any problem with such kind of reviews, I only think it can be misleading. Sometimes it sounds like a product is flawed, but maybe it is not.
    In my case after reading the review about the S2 I expected a flawed AF, when I got a test S2 for a weekend later I was soo surprized how precise the AF worked. I dont even doubt that it is possible to replicate the problem. I wont spend my time with replicating problems though.
    What I was trying to say ... I personally dont give much on such reviews any more. I am much more interested to read posts how good a certain products works for people in real life, even better talk to people who use a product a lot, and then try myself. I admit I still do read some of the reviews, and enjoy reading.
    What that speaks to is that the responsibility is really on the shoulders of the reader/potential buyer ... these reviewers are human, and their particular take on something may have little to no bearing on a reader's needs ... no matter how detailed and objective a review may seem.

    The obsession with perfection in an imperfect world seems to be approacing a mental illness in digital photography . The flaws are there, and someone will find them ... because there is ALWAYS something. The problem arises when people obsess on the flaws to the exclusion of the merits as applied to their needs. For some, it is almost as if what others think is more important than what they think.

    Seeing is believing isn't as valid as it once was ... using and seeing is believing.

    -Marc
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Agree with Marc. If I listened to others and ignored my own style, needs and preferences, I'd own two M9s instead of my two M8.2s (and I tested both). When I exhibit my prints, I guarantee nobody besides me knows the difference anyway; there are too many variables in the whole workflow.

    Jeff

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    With regards to DL whom I've known from the very early days of digital, I've seen an evolution in his writings and expressed views and also some of his testing methodology. Changes for the sake of improving the accuracy and relevancy of published results or understanding newly evolving performance characteristics of the increased complexity of modern equipment is welcomed.

    Even results presented as part factual due to testing, and part personal opinion, can often be a potent combination of useful information in my opinion.

    With that said, I have noticed a few fairly recent situations that I found somewhat disappointing and although it only related to a given medium format system, I wonder if it may be widespread in some of his coverage of other cameras or lenses.

    Namely it was his testing of the Pentax 645D of which he had good words to say. I'll simply use this as an example as I have more in-depth knowledge regarding this system than say commenting on Canon. Understandably, he had to solicit the borrowing of users/readers Pentax 645 lenses to conduct much of his testing on the 645D. If a similar testing senario involved say Nikon or Leica lenses, then one would assume he would receive a good representative lens sample, since those lenses are new and recently manufacturered at time of his testing. In the case of testing used (some I suspect heavily) Pentax 645 lenses, often made a decade or more ago in the film only era, with many have also passed throught the hands of multiple users, this raised a concern. Many, regardless Af fine tuning them, simply perform poorly or subpar on a 645D, and these appeared to be the sort of lenses that he tested. (and a single copy at that). Again I realize the predicicament he was in and I don't expect him to go out and purchase multiple samples.

    Additonally most of these Pentax 645 lenses were AF adjusted with regards to the latitude that film affords, but wholly inadaquate for the 645D especially if one wants to take advanatge of why they upgraded to 40MP in the first place. Even the decentering on some of these lenses is borderline questionable and this I believe can be seen in the images DL posted...but this is secondary to the main issue. The published results certainly didn't mirror my own, when a more careful analysis was made. In comparison, where other brands of cameras and lenses were tested in-depth (many of which I also use extensively), I found his observations were very similar and consistant to my own. This sort of inconsistancy to testing should possibly be addressed.

    My point is sometimes his testing is very through and complete and at other times, closely borders on being far more superficial. When it comes to a major new system (ie: Penatx 645D), it may have been better to withhold testing or publishing results, until a more through understanding and complete analysis of the body and especially the lenses could be made. I realize his paid audience that comprise of Pentax 645 users is relatively small compared to other brands/cameras etc.

    This doesn't detract from his work nor it's intrinsic value...but if inconsistency in the thoroughness of objective testing becomes more prevalent, then I think it may bring into question the value of some of the reviews, especially when it's on a paid site.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 19th February 2013 at 13:13.

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    I think a better test will be (when the M-240 comes out) the M-240 versus the Sony RX-1, as both will be FF, 24MP. I am interested to know how the Leica with a Summicron 35 will test against the Zeiss f2 on the RX-1 even though the Leica costs 3 times the Sony. The big drawback to the Sony in my mind is the fixed lens although for nearly silent street photography (leaf shutter) it can have its place in many a camera bag. LL's Reichmann wrote an interesting piece on it.

    It will be inevitable that this test will be much sought after mostly by photographers and Sony alike. Although comparing a $3k Sony against a $10k Leica setup seems unfair, in my mind, it can only be a winner for Sony to have the luxury of being compared to a Leica.

    Personally I can no longer ignore Sony product in view of this latest addition to their line up. Being a new 5D3 user I must say its AF is a delight to use and I keep asking myself why did I not add an AF camera to my lineup earlier, even though my MF P45+ V mount is way ahead of anything else I have for landscape use.

    As for DL, I thought his rant about the MM was over the top and did not renew after that as I'd rather put the $50 toward a flash card which has more lasting value to me than reading 12 months of possible rants. His site offers a very thorough list of equipment. While getting into the M9 and digital cameras I found his knowledge base worthwhile for me as to lens selection.

    In the back of my mind I seem to feel DL has something against Leica because its Leica. He most always seems to come up something wrong with whatever Leica he is "testing". I guess if I were riding a bike up in the Bristlecone forest I would need an AF to "assist" me in nailed focus photography. Although since being there in late 2012, I found the altitude invigorating and could nail my M9 and MM focus points just fine even though I live at 18 feet above sea level.
    I have put a 50 mm Summarit on the Sony Nex 7 and have found the results to be more than acceptable.

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Its pretty obvious that DL subjective conclusions are inflammatory (irritating) ..but his detail testing is as good as I ve found anyplace . (and a whole lot more fact based ).
    +1
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Personally I can no longer ignore Sony product in view of this latest addition to their line up. Being a new 5D3 user I must say its AF is a delight to use and I keep asking myself why did I not add an AF camera to my lineup earlier, even though my MF P45+ V mount is way ahead of anything else I have for landscape use.
    I'd like very much to see AF lenses on M ... but when

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    In the back of my mind I seem to feel DL has something against Leica because its Leica. He most always seems to come up something wrong with whatever Leica he is "testing".
    I guess that he loves Leica but he doesn't accept the price for what he gets compared to other companies (Sony, Zeiss, ...)
    but he says that the new 50 Summicron is the 50 mm he was waiting for
    Leica M

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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    It seems to me that we're in danger of listening too much to the measurebators shooting brick walls or University campus buildings and losing sight of how well glass works in the real world and with images that actually get printed. Go check out some real Galen Rowell prints for a dose of realism as to what matters and what doesn't in the realm of true art.

    My $0.02.
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    The tests that count in my opinion are those that are my images of subjects I shoot.
    -bob
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    I stopped reading when the zoom lens was mentioned, but for a manual focus DSLR, the 6D seems to be in a class of it's own:

    - It has exchangeable focusing screens
    - More or less any old SLR lens can be used with an adapter (except, ironically, old Canon lenses)
    - It's 35mm
    - It's relatively compact
    - Image quality is excellent up to very high ISO values
    - It has a couple of useful features like built in GPS and WiFi
    - It features excellent video functionality and quality
    - It will obviously mount any Canon EF prime, some of which are of indisputable quality, in addition to Zeiss lenses in EF mount including the new monster 55mm

    The 6D obviously won't replace a rangefinder camera for those who prefer the latter, and it wouldn't replace my trusty, old Nikons for most action photography. However, for those of us who don't care if a camera is a rangefinder, a mirrorless or an SLR, it seems to be an interesting alternative or supplement to an OM-D, any other DSLR or even a rangefinder camera.

    The launch of the 6D was seen as a non-event by many, even Canon users, but for me, it looks like the most interesting digital 35mm OM/Contax/F3 etc. replacement so far, and a camera that means that I don't have to buy a Leica to go all manual 35mm digital. So in a way, it's a competitor, a prime competitor if you ask me
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I stopped reading when the zoom lens was mentioned, but for a manual focus DSLR, the 6D seems to be in a class of it's own:

    - It has exchangeable focusing screens
    - More or less any old SLR lens can be used with an adapter (except, ironically, old Canon lenses)
    - It's 35mm
    - It's relatively compact
    - Image quality is excellent up to very high ISO values
    - It has a couple of useful features like built in GPS and WiFi
    - It features excellent video functionality and quality
    - It will obviously mount any Canon EF prime, some of which are of indisputable quality, in addition to Zeiss lenses in EF mount including the new monster 55mm

    The 6D obviously won't replace a rangefinder camera for those who prefer the latter, and it wouldn't replace my trusty, old Nikons for most action photography. However, for those of us who don't care if a camera is a rangefinder, a mirrorless or an SLR, it seems to be an interesting alternative or supplement to an OM-D, any other DSLR or even a rangefinder camera.

    The launch of the 6D was seen as a non-event by many, even Canon users, but for me, it looks like the most interesting digital 35mm OM/Contax/F3 etc. replacement so far, and a camera that means that I don't have to buy a Leica to go all manual 35mm digital. So in a way, it's a competitor, a prime competitor if you ask me
    The 6D is probably the first Canon I've considered purchasing (outside the 1Dx) since my original Digital Rebel purchase in 2003. Definitely a very interesting camera and I suspect it would heavily cannibalize 5D3 sales had it gotten the 7D autofocus setup. The accuracy of the autofocus is actually my only potential hangup about it. I just haven't read enough about how great it is for sports and action. Anything moving slowly or completely still and my M9 is a better choice for me.
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    Re: M240 or 6D (interesting post on Diglloyd)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I stopped reading when the zoom lens was mentioned, but for a manual focus DSLR, the 6D seems to be in a class of it's own:

    - It has exchangeable focusing screens
    - More or less any old SLR lens can be used with an adapter (except, ironically, old Canon lenses)
    - It's 35mm
    - It's relatively compact
    - Image quality is excellent up to very high ISO values
    - It has a couple of useful features like built in GPS and WiFi
    - It features excellent video functionality and quality
    - It will obviously mount any Canon EF prime, some of which are of indisputable quality, in addition to Zeiss lenses in EF mount including the new monster 55mm

    The 6D obviously won't replace a rangefinder camera for those who prefer the latter, and it wouldn't replace my trusty, old Nikons for most action photography. However, for those of us who don't care if a camera is a rangefinder, a mirrorless or an SLR, it seems to be an interesting alternative or supplement to an OM-D, any other DSLR or even a rangefinder camera.

    The launch of the 6D was seen as a non-event by many, even Canon users, but for me, it looks like the most interesting digital 35mm OM/Contax/F3 etc. replacement so far, and a camera that means that I don't have to buy a Leica to go all manual 35mm digital. So in a way, it's a competitor, a prime competitor if you ask me
    Although not quite as adaptable as the 6D, the A99 comes to mind, if I were to shoot manual lenses. You could even remove the translucent mirror.

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