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Thread: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Keith, The answer is, yes.

    The new Leica M is the first ever M to feature Live View and Live View Focusing. This means that now, for the first time, images can be composed using the actual image produced by the lens – with complete control of depth of field, exposure, precise framing and focusing. Its large, high-resolution 3" monitor allows precise assessment of the subject seen through the lens. This opens up entirely new opportunities for M-Photographers that previously lay far beyond the limitations of rangefinder photography, like macro and telephoto exposures, or using the monitor as a viewfinder.
    From: Leica Camera AG - Photography - LEICA M

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Sure, but what does any of that have to do with the grid pattern Keith asked about.

    Jeff

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Vivek, thanks, but I'm still unsure if there is a grid line option.

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    But does the LCD have it
    HI Keith
    Sorry - not ignoring you - I only have a very old firmware, and my impression is no - but I don't think that's necessarily the final answer!

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Keith
    Sorry - not ignoring you - I only have a very old firmware, and my impression is no - but I don't think that's necessarily the final answer!
    I was poking about on the Leica USA site today looking for an instruction manual for the new M and noticed that they listed a new firmware download already ... but no instruction manual yet.

    G

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    That's because the ink's not dry on my manual yet.

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Keith
    Sorry - not ignoring you - I only have a very old firmware, and my impression is no - but I don't think that's necessarily the final answer!

    all the best
    Hi Jono, thanks. I can see no mention of this feature anywhere but had wondered if it would be available with a firmware update.

    Best

    Keith

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Much though I would love one, it doesn't sound like it will replace my two DMRs. Your report says that the M with R adapter is 'no sports camera' and that the EVF cuts out for a bout a second after shooting in live view or with the EVF. That's a real shame.

    I can't see Doug wanting to change with his wildlife shots and I shan't be able to for my gig photography. A 1 second delay using my 180 cron just isn.t going to cut the mustard. But the traditional M side of it does look really good - but it isn't a complete solution for R owners sadly.

    Charlie

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Is there leveling indicator with the liveview? I think there has to be a small hardware (cost ~5 Euros) part needed for that. Can't just do it with a FW update.

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    A possible work-around to achieve a grid would perhaps be to mark up one of these protectors and attach to the LCD?

    http://www.reddotcameras.co.uk/produ...oducts_id=4055

    I'm really trying to get this camera to work for me but wonder if I'm trying too hard and should just accept that it's just not meant to be?

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    I thought of that as a possible work around, Keith. I did not post that thought as some may think it is ridiculous. The leveling indicator and the grid line on demand should be in this camera, IMO. Even simple P&S cams or even may be phones have these features.

    I am curious- the LCD has a sapphire screen or just plain glass?

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I thought of that as a possible work around, Keith. I did not post that thought as some may think it is ridiculous. The leveling indicator and the grid line on demand should be in this camera, IMO. Even simple P&S cams or even may be phones have these features.
    Vivek, yes, agreed, they certainly should.

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I am curious- the LCD has a sapphire screen or just plain glass?
    Dow Corning Gorilla Glass I thought...
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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    HI There Vivek - Keith
    The glass is gorilla glass (like an iPhone). I don't have a camera with current firmware, but I'm almost certain that there is a level indicator - not certain about the grid lines.

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI There Vivek - Keith
    The glass is gorilla glass (like an iPhone). I don't have a camera with current firmware, but I'm almost certain that there is a level indicator - not certain about the grid lines.

    all the best
    Jono, thanks again.

    Perhaps someone who has the camera with the latest firmware could confirm?

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Jono, thanks again.

    Perhaps someone who has the camera with the latest firmware could confirm?
    Checked the level indicator again - definitely was there, and I see no reason why they should take it away - it's called 'Horizon'
    Might be worth mounting a campaign for gridlines in a later firmware update, I can see the point (did the M9 have them?). . . . . My M9 is in another building so it's easier to ask!

    all the best

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Hi Jono, Thanks for the info!

    Leica will have to change their lingo. They are catching up to others and not the trend setter they were. It is EVF and not visoflex and leveling indicator and not horizon and so on and so forth. Having said that, I do not have any qualms about their ITOOY lens hood's name, for example.

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Dow Corning Gorilla Glass I thought...
    I am certain it is a glass (whatever flavor) from Schott (from Mainz, near Frankfurt) and there is no Corning glass there.

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Checked the level indicator again - definitely was there, and I see no reason why they should take it away - it's called 'Horizon'
    Might be worth mounting a campaign for gridlines in a later firmware update, I can see the point (did the M9 have them?). . . . . My M9 is in another building so it's easier to ask!

    all the best
    Jono,

    I've just been looking at the following link

    Red Dot Forum - Photokina 2012: Day 1 - The Leica M

    where they show the 'Horizon' function that clearly shows there are indicators for both pitch and roll. Whilst not a grid screen this is certainly a very useful function.

    I take it - and hope and pray - that this function is also visible in the EVF?

    Jono, Many thanks, yet again ;-)... and could anyone with the release firmware confirm that 'Horizon' made it through and is also available in the EVF?

    Best

    Keith
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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I am certain it is a glass (whatever flavor) from Schott (from Mainz, near Frankfurt) and there is no Corning glass there.
    Corning is selling glass to manufacturers all over the world, Vivek. Including to Apple, doing manufacturing in China and importing the glass there from the USA.
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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    I've just been looking at the following link

    Red Dot Forum - Photokina 2012: Day 1 - The Leica M

    where they show the 'Horizon' function that clearly shows there are indicators for both pitch and roll. Whilst not a grid screen this is certainly a very useful function.

    I take it - and hope and pray - that this function is also visible in the EVF?

    Jono, Many thanks, yet again ;-)... and could anyone with the release firmware confirm that 'Horizon' made it through and is also available in the EVF?
    Indeed. The Ricoh GXR display will show either the level indicator or grid lines. Once I enabled the level indicator, I found far less need for the grid lines. I turn on the grid lines now mostly when I'm working on a tripod with a static subject, more as a placement indicator than for getting the horizontals correct.

    And I'm absolutely sure that whatever the M can display on the LCD would also display in the EVF. It would not make sense for that to be otherwise since it's just diverting the same video signal to another destination. (The X2 does have a grid lines display and relays it to the EVF when the EVF is fitted and enabled.)
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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I am certain it is a glass (whatever flavor) from Schott (from Mainz, near Frankfurt) and there is no Corning glass there.
    Vivek, from the M specs :
    3” TFT Display with 920.000 Pixels, scratch resistant cover glass (Corning®Gorilla®Glass)
    Ario
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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    And I'm absolutely sure that whatever the M can display on the LCD would also display in the EVF. It would not make sense for that to be otherwise since it's just diverting the same video signal to another destination. (The X2 does have a grid lines display and relays it to the EVF when the EVF is fitted and enabled.)
    Godfrey, thanks, I would imagine that you're right. Strange that the X2 has it but the M doesn't.

    I'll now sit back, let the early adopters do the R&D and await RAW files and independent testing before making any kind of decision.
    Last edited by KeithL; 3rd March 2013 at 10:25.

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I am certain it is a glass (whatever flavor) from Schott (from Mainz, near Frankfurt) and there is no Corning glass there.
    Yeah I'm familiar with Schott glass (have in in a rifle scope of mine... great stuff) but I was going off the Media Docs from Leica stating that the M240 was implementing Gorilla Glass. I'd imagine it is much less expensive (read: cost effective) yet still scratch resistant option over the Sapphire of the -P/ MM models that can be sold to the masses.
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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Yeah I'm familiar with Schott glass (have in in a rifle scope of mine... great stuff) but I was going off the Media Docs from Leica stating that the M240 was implementing Gorilla Glass. I'd imagine it is much less expensive (read: cost effective) yet still scratch resistant option over the Sapphire of the -P/ MM models that can be sold to the masses.
    Hi There
    That's right
    It does have gorilla glass from Corning (same as iPad). Not as good as sapphire glass, but much much much cheaper, and a great deal better than what they had before.
    I've got a battered camera here - some tiny scratches but no scuffing (and you can only see the scratches if you try really hard)
    all the best

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Yeah I'm familiar with Schott glass (have in in a rifle scope of mine... great stuff) but I was going off the Media Docs from Leica stating that the M240 was implementing Gorilla Glass. I'd imagine it is much less expensive (read: cost effective) yet still scratch resistant option over the Sapphire of the -P/ MM models that can be sold to the masses.
    I know nothing about guns and such weapons. I think I was under the wrong impression that the new M is "entirely made in the EU" (of EU components). The name "Gorilla" also somehow does not seem to fit with a Leica.

    Thanks Godfrey and Ario for the corrections.

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Hi Jono
    Firstly, thank you for an excellent review. Secondly I've just picked up my M and am a little puzzled by the fact that I find setting exposure compensation an ergonomic challenge.
    Apart from a negative comment by Tim Ashley, there seems to be very little criticism of the need to press and hold the focus button whilst rotating the thumb wheel. It sounds fine but in practice when handheld it is awkward, difficult (for me) to do whilst the camera is at eye level and certainly a much poorer solution than setting compensation on the M9.
    I realise I can switch from A to Manual but I'm checking here in case I'm missing a trick. Is there a knack to this?
    This moan aside I love the camera and once again thanks for the review.
    Olaf
    Olaf Willoughby creative explorations in photography
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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Quote Originally Posted by olaf View Post
    Hi Jono
    Firstly, thank you for an excellent review. Secondly I've just picked up my M and am a little puzzled by the fact that I find setting exposure compensation an ergonomic challenge.
    Apart from a negative comment by Tim Ashley, there seems to be very little criticism of the need to press and hold the focus button whilst rotating the thumb wheel. It sounds fine but in practice when handheld it is awkward, difficult (for me) to do whilst the camera is at eye level and certainly a much poorer solution than setting compensation on the M9.
    I realise I can switch from A to Manual but I'm checking here in case I'm missing a trick. Is there a knack to this?
    This moan aside I love the camera and once again thanks for the review.
    Olaf
    Olaf Willoughby creative explorations in photography
    Hi Olaf,
    I have my new M for 10 days and feel the same about the exp comp. I hope there will be another option in a fw upgrade available. I am not sure yet which would be the best buttons. The button on the front side is not positioned very well IMO.

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Hi Olaf,
    I have my new M for 10 days and feel the same about the exp comp. I hope there will be another option in a fw upgrade available. I am not sure yet which would be the best buttons. The button on the front side is not positioned very well IMO.
    Sounds like an option available on the Olympus E-1 and a couple of other cameras might be the ticket. Normally, the E-1 requires that you press the EV compensation button and turn the dial to set or change the compensation. You can set an option which pushes it to "direct" mode, where all you have to do is roll the dial. Same was true on the Panasonic L1 and, I think, on the Pentax K1.

    If these buttons and dials on the M are firmware addressable, that would be a relatively simple fix.

    G

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    In the traditional mode, and using the auto (aperture) setting, I usually do the calculation in my head. i compose and focus on the scene, and then if i need exposure compensation i point the camera toward a brighter or darker field of view while watching the time setting in the viewfinder. At the point were I am happy with the exposure I half press the shutter and hold to lock the exposure, recompose and shoot. This usually only requires small movements of the camera, and is quick and easy to do. It makes me think about highlights and shadow, and has served me well in most situations on all of my M cameras (6, 6TTL, 8, 9 & M). John
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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Quote Originally Posted by jaknight View Post
    In the traditional mode, and using the auto (aperture) setting, I usually do the calculation in my head. i compose and focus on the scene, and then if i need exposure compensation i point the camera toward a brighter or darker field of view while watching the time setting in the viewfinder. At the point were I am happy with the exposure I half press the shutter and hold to lock the exposure, recompose and shoot. This usually only requires small movements of the camera, and is quick and easy to do. It makes me think about highlights and shadow, and has served me well in most situations on all of my M cameras (6, 6TTL, 8, 9 & M). John
    i do the same often. still it would be nice to have access to exp in an easier way.
    the movie button on the top plate would be nice. press it and then you have 3 sec to turn the wheel.
    just turnung the whell without having to press any button is alitle problematic that you change the setting accidently whithout noticing.

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Very nice piece, thanks for sharing. Will you also write a piece on when I will be able to buy one? Or perhaps one on how enjoyable it is still to use the M9 while the good Leica people assemble 1.5 Typ 240 bodies by hand every month...of course can't make more, in the interest of tight tolerances etc., etc.? Joined the waiting list about 9 months ago....still interested in the new M; not sure if my interest will last till 2015 or so....Best, Martin

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Quote Originally Posted by jaknight View Post
    In the traditional mode, and using the auto (aperture) setting, I usually do the calculation in my head. i compose and focus on the scene, and then if i need exposure compensation i point the camera toward a brighter or darker field of view while watching the time setting in the viewfinder. At the point were I am happy with the exposure I half press the shutter and hold to lock the exposure, recompose and shoot. This usually only requires small movements of the camera, and is quick and easy to do. It makes me think about highlights and shadow, and has served me well in most situations on all of my M cameras (6, 6TTL, 8, 9 & M). John
    This works and I use it too. However, the logic behind its use is a little different from the logic of the EC control. This methodology allows you to obtain correct exposure on a frame-at-a-time basis using the momentary lock with the shutter half press.

    The EC methodology is more useful when you're going to make several exposures at the same time in similar light while still using Auto Exposure to help accommodate changing overall lighting. You target a test area for exposure and compare it to the main subject, then dial in the difference with EC. Now you have established the baseline for the lighting situation when you are shooting a bunch of frames of, say, a person who's expressions you are trying to capture, or a ball game, or other similar quickly paced subjects without having to adjust exposure, reframe, release shutter, adjust exposure, reframe, release shutter, etc, for each exposure.

    (A locking AE-Lock button does this too, without using EC, with the liability that you might have an exposure locked when the light changes or have simply forgotten to unlock it. But the M doesn't have one of those. There's a reason that many cameras have a bunch of different buttons dedicated to different tasks, once you get into exploiting what auto exposure can do. ;-)

    G

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    HI there Olaf
    Congratulations on your camera! This has been talked about quite a bit - some say 'use manual' but I think that exposure compensation becomes even more useful when using the EVF.

    I quite agree that this could be done better

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Sounds like an option available on the Olympus E-1 and a couple of other cameras might be the ticket. Normally, the E-1 requires that you press the EV compensation button and turn the dial to set or change the compensation. You can set an option which pushes it to "direct" mode, where all you have to do is roll the dial. Same was true on the Panasonic L1 and, I think, on the Pentax K1.

    If these buttons and dials on the M are firmware addressable, that would be a relatively simple fix.

    G
    HI Godfrey
    Exactly - actually there is this option in the M9 as well - I personally think that it should be on the M too. I guess it would be quite an easy fix.

    All the best
    Jon

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Quote Originally Posted by jaknight View Post
    In the traditional mode, and using the auto (aperture) setting, I usually do the calculation in my head. i compose and focus on the scene, and then if i need exposure compensation i point the camera toward a brighter or darker field of view while watching the time setting in the viewfinder. At the point were I am happy with the exposure I half press the shutter and hold to lock the exposure, recompose and shoot. This usually only requires small movements of the camera, and is quick and easy to do. It makes me think about highlights and shadow, and has served me well in most situations on all of my M cameras (6, 6TTL, 8, 9 & M). John
    HI John
    I quite agree - this is what I do as well - I think that in rangefinder mode it's both more intuitive and better than using exposure compensation.
    However - in live view I think that exposure compensation is really useful, and it would be good if it worked better.

    all the best

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI there Olaf
    Congratulations on your camera! This has been talked about quite a bit - some say 'use manual' but I think that exposure compensation becomes even more useful when using the EVF.

    I quite agree that this could be done better



    HI Godfrey
    Exactly - actually there is this option in the M9 as well - I personally think that it should be on the M too. I guess it would be quite an easy fix.

    All the best
    Jon
    If I recall correctly with the M9 there are two options for EC: either spin the dial on the back or half press the shutter AND then spin the dial with the shutter half pressed. I often found, with the first option, that the dial spun without me noticing until many frames later. So I switched to the half shutter press and spin the dial option. This is pretty much the same as the M where you have to press the 'focus' button and then spin the dial.
    Not much difference. Certainly not the same as other, perhaps easier options, but once learned is no problem for me (very small hands..)
    Best,
    Bob

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Quote Originally Posted by rga View Post
    If I recall correctly with the M9 there are two options for EC: either spin the dial on the back or half press the shutter AND then spin the dial with the shutter half pressed. I often found, with the first option, that the dial spun without me noticing until many frames later. So I switched to the half shutter press and spin the dial option. This is pretty much the same as the M where you have to press the 'focus' button and then spin the dial.
    Not much difference. Certainly not the same as other, perhaps easier options, but once learned is no problem for me (very small hands..)
    Best,
    Bob
    HI Bob
    I think you'd be less likely to spin the thumb dial by mistake on the M than the M9. I also think it's horses for courses, and that exposure compensation is much more useful with Live view than the rangefinder.
    So I'd like to see it both ways - then you can use one of the presets for live view with the dial only switched on, and the other ones with it switched off.

    As I say - I'd like to see it.

    All the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Jono Slack's piece on the M(240)

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Bob
    I think you'd be less likely to spin the thumb dial by mistake on the M than the M9. I also think it's horses for courses, and that exposure compensation is much more useful with Live view than the rangefinder.
    So I'd like to see it both ways - then you can use one of the presets for live view with the dial only switched on, and the other ones with it switched off.

    As I say - I'd like to see it.

    All the best
    On my M spinning the dial by itself does nothing, so no more mistakes of just spinning the dial and causing a changed EV for me...

    As per Live View and EV, I've never used LV...
    Best,
    Bob
    www.rgaphoto.com
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