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Thread: My humble observation

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    My humble observation

    This is just my humble observation.

    From the time the new M Type 240 was announced up to now, there were and still are a lot of talk about how it might be better or worse that the old M9. There seems to be 2 camps here, one that is somewhat unhappy with the new M for variety of reason from newer technology in the new M that cause the IQ to look more digital or the fact that it is bigger or heavier. The other camp are the early adopter that just needs to have the latest and the greatest. I see the similarity in auto enthusiast. Whenever BMW introduce a new 3 series, there will be 2 camps, one that are the early adopter who think the latest car is the best, and the other are (not sure if it is the right term) purist who swore that the new car is never as good as its predecessor, it is heavier, doesn't handle as well, too big, ugly design etc.

    The early adopter will always be the early adopter. They have the money (or will come up with the money somehow) to get the latest and the greatest and love it. Some of the early adopter are also the people with a lot of financial means. They see the product as a status symbol to say they have it and the rest of you just can't afford it. Again, Leica, like BMW knows that well and I think really caters to this group. Just look at the number of limited edition this and that. Not all early adopter are rich or seeking status symbol. Some just love or need the latest technology for work or needed the features that is not available in the earlier model.

    As for other camp, at the end of the life-cycle of the product, most of the people who did not like the product when it was introduced now can't say enough good things about the product. They also start comparing the soon to be released product with the current, about to go away, product and would swear that the old product is better than the soon to be released. I see this somewhat with the Leica Ms and the same with BMW 3 series. This only happen to products where you have very enthusiastic followers. These are also great products to begin with and have set the bar so high. The product usually have a very long product life, long after it is discontinued.

    Edit: As Jono pointed out below, there is also the group that are true users of the product. These are people that will use all the different version of the product and are serious about their craft whether it be driving or photography. The see the product as a tool and might find features in the new product that is not available in the older version.
    Last edited by VINCET; 6th March 2013 at 13:14.

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    Re: My humble observation

    Hi There
    There is also the camp who have been shooting with the M8 and then the M9, extensively and seriously, and who are really interested in the benefits the new camera brings. . . . and there are many benefits.

    For me, the principal benefits are the quieter shutter (much) and the better high ISO (much).

    I think your observations are good fun - but they rather patronise people who are serious about their photography (count me out - I'm just a gadget freak

    all the best

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    Re: My humble observation

    Jono,

    Good point. I did not really mean to patronize anybody or hopefully, did not offend anyone. I do agree that there are others who are early adopters because they see features that is not available in the current model that they need. I also love new tech and for me, the biggest selling point of the new M is the moisture seal and the better high ISO. I do love the new one but eventually, reality hit and got myself a great M9-P from Marc. I guess I will alway be in the almost latest and greatest crowd.

    Vince
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    Senior Member jstaben's Avatar
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    Re: My humble observation

    Vince since you already have M9P what you really *NEED* is the Monochrom!!


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    Re: My humble observation

    guys i have r9 with dmr and 28 to 90mm asph lens, is that good idea if i add m 240 body only.
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    Re: My humble observation

    Jon,

    Almost did but decided to stay with something that can do color still. I might still go for the new M as I really like some of the feature. What I don't like is the look. Maybe a digital MP?

    Vince

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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by VINCET View Post
    Jon,

    Almost did but decided to stay with something that can do color still. I might still go for the new M as I really like some of the feature. What I don't like is the look. Maybe a digital MP?

    Vince
    Good choice. I agree I like the understated M9P/MM look. I'd wait for the inevitable special version like 100-year anniversary edition, or the MP-240 version, or whatever.

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    Re: My humble observation

    Its always fun to have the newest Leica equipment . There is an undeniable thrill of getting a new Leica camera or lens and opening the box for the first time . If the product meets expectations (which means it just about perfect for your uses) it will be praised ..if problems arise ...well you have friends that will show empathy (?).

    If you are really serious about your photography and have gone through several Leica new product introductions .....you should know that they are never ever perfect . (I am impressed by the MONO ). How happy will those getting new M s be if the camera develops a cold right before or during an important assignment either professional or personal ? So there is a certain well justified concern about being an early adopter (Beta?) .

    If you avoid the discussion of aesthetic ..the new M appears to be a significant improvement over the M9 in essentially every specification . They have corrected most of the things that bothered me ....battery,card,buffer,weather sealing, ability to focus a 135APO , ISO performance in the 800-3200 range,screen etc .

    I enjoy the new new camera process ...but not the effort required to rework my processes or the risk that I will not be at the top of my game on the next shoot . But the M is my primary system ..so I feel a need to get on with it . Those evening shoots this summer will really benefit from the better ISO performance and I am not waiting a another year .

    This has little to do with being first ..I have done that plenty .
    Roger Dunham
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    Re: My humble observation

    Said already multiple times, the Leica M8 and also the DMR made me really cautious about the quality of new digital products of the house Leica. I was burned with both approaches heavily and so I am just very, very careful. Plus I do not have the immediate need to jump on the very first Leica Ms coning out of the factory. I do for sure not want to play beta tester again

    While I definitely look forward to get the M as I want to have the best camera for all my Leica M glass, I am trying this time to avoid the first wave and watch very carefully how that M does and if there are quirks - especially from the first series. For the biggest part it seems that the M is really solving all issues I had with the M8 (and would have had with the M9 as well), especially much better high ISO, some higher resolution, faster operation (I do hope also more reliable), LV just for lenses like the WATE and the 4/135, larger LCD ..... to list the most important ones for me.

    So if it turns out it does what it offers also in a reliable way, then I will be really happy. Otherwise I will not buy.

    I think it is save to bet after June/July this year that all the M child diseases (if there are some) are overcome. There is huge hope!

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    Re: My humble observation

    There is another camp, to which I belong at the moment, which thinks the M 240 is a fine camera, despite the CMOS questions and many features that I'd never use, but it just isn't quite worth trading up for any time soon, because the M9 is doing its job nicely.

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    There is another camp, to which I belong at the moment, which thinks the M 240 is a fine camera, despite the CMOS questions and many features that I'd never use, but it just isn't quite worth trading up for any time soon, because the M9 is doing its job nicely.
    Well, but there are some who do not have an M9 ....
    Life is an ever changing journey
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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    There is another camp, to which I belong at the moment, which thinks the M 240 is a fine camera, despite the CMOS questions and many features that I'd never use, but it just isn't quite worth trading up for any time soon, because the M9 is doing its job nicely.
    Hi Douglas - of course, you're quite right. All I can say is . . .
    Don't try one!

    For my money the big point is just what a wonderful rangefinder camera it is, and that's how I'll be using mine.

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Douglas - of course, you're quite right. All I can say is . . .
    Don't try one!

    For my money the big point is just what a wonderful rangefinder camera it is, and that's how I'll be using mine.
    To be honest, Jono, I'm really not that worried about trying one. I only shoot in manual mode, and I don't even use the LCD screen, except for formatting my card, so much of the improved controls and LCD are lost on me. I guess a quieter shutter would be nice, and, while probably not necessary for me, weathersealing would be fine, and I'd take the improved battery life, but it seems that's really all the camera has to offer me. Conversely, the camera is missing the frame selector, it is heavier, and, on a less important note, I still think the M9 is a "prettier" camera, with its notched top plate. I'm also a little concerned about having that new exp. comp button on the front, since it's right where I place my fingers, but I'd have to try it out.

    I'll eventually buy a second M body someday, either the new M 240 or another used M9, but the new M doesn't give me the feeling of needing to rush out to upgrade, for my style of shooting. Don't get me wrong. I think it is a proper and nice upgrade. It just may not be all that necessary for me at the moment.

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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Well, but there are some who do not have an M9 ....
    I hear you, although used M9s at $3500 may be tempting to those that don't already own an M9.

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    Re: My humble observation

    It's the improvements in responsiveness which will draw me to the new M most of all.

    Live View is a plus, the bigger battery another, the higher sensitivity of the sensor a third. But responsiveness is the key, for me. The new M seems to be responsive on the same order that my Olympus E-5 was, and I'd really like to have that kind of snappy response back.

    G
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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    It's the improvements in responsiveness which will draw me to the new M most of all.

    Live View is a plus, the bigger battery another, the higher sensitivity of the sensor a third. But responsiveness is the key, for me. The new M seems to be responsive on the same order that my Olympus E-5 was, and I'd really like to have that kind of snappy response back.

    G
    Responsive in what way? Maybe I'm not privy to all of the improvements.

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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    Responsive in what way? Maybe I'm not privy to all of the improvements.
    That's why I said you'd better not try one.
    The shutter is lovely - it isn't just the sound, it's also the feel, which is delicious.
    But there is less shutter lag, and the camera writes to cards faster and just feels quicker.
    Your wants are the same as mine, which is why I said not to try it! (you'll be doomed).

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: My humble observation

    For me, for most of the time, my M9 is pretty responsive. The only time I have issue is occassionally, when I switch to discrete shutter mode, the camera seems to take a long time after I press the shutter to come back to ready mode. It will go like click, then wait, wait..... 10+ secs later, I hear the shutter advance. Even though I release the shutter immediately. This never happen to me when I am in standard mode.

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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by VINCET View Post
    For me, for most of the time, my M9 is pretty responsive. The only time I have issue is occassionally, when I switch to discrete shutter mode, the camera seems to take a long time after I press the shutter to come back to ready mode. It will go like click, then wait, wait..... 10+ secs later, I hear the shutter advance. Even though I release the shutter immediately. This never happen to me when I am in standard mode.
    Hi Vince - I think my advice to you is the same as to Douglas - just don't try it, or you'll be eating your words!

    all the best

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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Well, but there are some who do not have an M9 ....
    That would be me! This will be my first Leica after lusting for them since I saw my first one "in the flesh" in 1970. I have been on a waiting list since early October.

    Greg
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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by VINCET View Post
    For me, for most of the time, my M9 is pretty responsive. The only time I have issue is occassionally, when I switch to discrete shutter mode, the camera seems to take a long time after I press the shutter to come back to ready mode. It will go like click, then wait, wait..... 10+ secs later, I hear the shutter advance. Even though I release the shutter immediately. This never happen to me when I am in standard mode.
    Are you using the latest firmware? The latest firmware screwed up discrete mode, so I went back to the previous firmware.

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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    That's why I said you'd better not try one.
    The shutter is lovely - it isn't just the sound, it's also the feel, which is delicious.
    But there is less shutter lag, and the camera writes to cards faster and just feels quicker.
    Your wants are the same as mine, which is why I said not to try it! (you'll be doomed).
    I don't doubt the shutter feel is nicer. Granted, I only use M9's soft release mode, so I'm fine with the shutter. I guess I'm comfortable enough with the "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang-ness" of the M9's shutter to not warrant an upgrade simply for that reason, although that is the most compelling thing about the new camera, to me. I'd better not try it out!

    I've been working on the Eggleston approach of only shooting one or two frames and moving on, so the buffer is no issue to me these days.

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    Re: My humble observation

    Jono, my problem is that even without trying it, I already want it. But my wallet and bank account just do not agree with me

    Vince

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    Re: My humble observation

    Douglas, yes, I have the latest firmware. Where can I get the previous firmware?

    Vince

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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by VINCET View Post
    Douglas, yes, I have the latest firmware. Where can I get the previous firmware?

    Vince
    Hi, Vince. I don't remember where I found it, exactly, but you could search around on the Leica user forum. That's where I found it.

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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    Responsive in what way? Maybe I'm not privy to all of the improvements.
    The reviews and reports all mentioned that the M had substantially faster write to storage, opened images to the LCD and executed zooms and shifts much more swiftly, and had less shutter release lag as well. The slow and somewhat noisy shutter re-cock of the M9 was stated as being quieter and quicker.

    How much improvement I wasn't sure until last evening. One of my lucky local friends received his new M and we got together for coffee. Everything Jono says is true: once you handle the new M side by side with the M9, you will see very clearly that this is a more refined camera in almost every way with respect to its mechanicals and controls. The shutter sounds much nicer, the shutter release is greatly improved, the LED illuminated framelines are clearer and easier to see. It writes to storage nearly as fast as you can press the shutter release; I don't know how big the frame buffer is, but I wasn't able to push it to making me wait in the brief few minutes I had to press it last evening. (I don't often shoot so rapidly, but there have been several times when I was making photos of friends and trying to capture expressions that the M9's 5 frame buffer and slow write speed made me wait.) Pressing the review button snapped the image onto the LCD much more quickly.

    Etc etc. These are the serious improvements to me, they make the M more invisible and less distracting when shooting. A bit more sensitivity is good, the Live View lends the camera more versatility, etc etc, but the overall elevation of responsiveness is the big deal.

    You can't catch The Decisive Moment if the camera is too busy winding its shutter for the next exposure when it happens... ;-)

    G

    (A $7000 chunk of my 2014 budget has been allocated.)
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    Re: My humble observation

    Hi Godfrey. (And Douglas)
    I clearly remember my first impressions when I took the camera away from Solms nearly six months ago. I think they finished building it whilst I waited! You've described it very well. I'm still using that camera at the moment, there are a few gotchas ( long since fixed in more recent iterations ). But the point is that it's the camera one would have liked the M9 to be.
    The Live view/EVF stuff maybe just fluff, but it's fun fluff, but the real point is the camera as an M, I want one ! Hopefully mine comes next week, just in time for the trip to China. Lens selection is more of an issue!

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: My humble observation

    In what way is the shutter feel improved over soft release mode? I'd welcome that change, for sure, but for $7k (or an extra $3.5k,) I'm not sure that it would be worth it over the M9. None of the rewind or buffer stuff bothers me.

    BTW, any news on the camera turn-on time? I remember reading in a couple of places that it took a little time, but I haven't seen any followups on it.

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    Re: My humble observation

    Leica website, in the technical section for the M, states startup (turn-on-time), "Approximately one second".

    Greg

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    Re: My humble observation

    Vince you will get one...if not now then someday. Good news for someone with GAS like yourself is that even if you wanted one you won't be able to for a long time!

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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    In what way is the shutter feel improved over soft release mode? I'd welcome that change, for sure, but for $7k (or an extra $3.5k,) I'm not sure that it would be worth it over the M9. None of the rewind or buffer stuff bothers me.

    BTW, any news on the camera turn-on time? I remember reading in a couple of places that it took a little time, but I haven't seen any followups on it.
    I don't have a way to quantify "shutter release feel". It feels smoother, more positive and precise, without the gratchy movement of the M9 shutter release.

    I didn't notice anything unusual about the camera turn on time, but then I have never noticed that the M9 was slow or fast there either. Both cameras seemed to power on as fast as I needed.

    The differences might not be worth the price to you. But, ten minutes of playing with one and I know it would be a nicer camera to use for me. Is that $7000 worth of nice? I have no idea, that's a heck of a chunk of change, but if I have the spare $7000 to toss at it I'll give it a shot.

    And I am actually, really, very happy with the M9 just as it is. The new M just has that nice addition of "more goodness" to it.

    G
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    Re: My humble observation

    Yeah, I'll just have to try it out, Godfrey. I think regular shutter mode on the M9 is pretty bad, with its three positions, but, since I don't use A mode, I stick with "soft" release and its two positions, which feels pretty good to me.

    There has been a hint or two that Leica may have more M models in the pipeline. If that is so, I'd love to see something that takes the M mechanical improvements, skips all of the other non-rangefinder stuff, and comes in at a lower price, but I don't have my hopes up, and the price of the M 240 is lower than I expected, anyways.

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    Re: My humble observation

    I have read on LUF that start up time is 3 sec. If true, it is on the slower side.
    V/r John

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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    I have read on LUF that start up time is 3 sec. If true, it is on the slower side.
    Yeah, that's what I was worried about, too, when I read it.

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    Re: My humble observation

    My humble observation is that Leica have released somewhere between 40-150 cameras - so far.

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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    I have read on LUF that start up time is 3 sec. If true, it is on the slower side.
    As I said in a prior response, I didn't notice anything slow about it. I turned it on and it was ready to shoot by the time I had it at my eye. Nothing struck me one way or another as being different compared to the M9 or any of my other digital cameras (E-1, GXR, etc) when it comes to startup time.

    ... Right on, PeterA. ;-)

    G

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    Re: My humble observation

    how about image quality M 240 vs dmr, for 16x24 inch enlargement.

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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by sheikh View Post
    how about image quality M 240 vs dmr, for 16x24 inch enlargement.
    More pixels == ability to make larger prints at the same output density.

    G

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    Re: My humble observation

    The beauty of irrationality is that you can justify anything.
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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by sheikh View Post
    how about image quality M 240 vs dmr, for 16x24 inch enlargement.
    Assuming ideal conditions and similar lens performance, an 8.5" x 13" print from the DMR will be about the same quality as an 11.5" x 17" print from the M9 and a 13" x 20" print from the M 240, give or take.

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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by sheikh View Post
    how about image quality M 240 vs dmr, for 16x24 inch enlargement.
    The M image will have higher frequency detail. Both will look really nice.

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    Re: My humble observation

    thanks all

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    Re: My humble observation

    guys i have epson 4900 printer, please advise the best exhibition 17 inches paper for me.

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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    My humble observation is that Leica have released somewhere between 40-150 cameras - so far.
    Exactly like the M9 . The first shipment (M9 ) provided 20 cameras for the USA . The 2nd round of cameras was a good 4-6 weeks later . It was 3-4 months before they had filled the first day pre orders .

    Considering how much they must have lost on the M8 recall seems reasonable approach .

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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    My humble observation is that Leica have released somewhere between 40-150 cameras - so far.
    I thought 500 - but I could be wrong.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by sheikh View Post
    guys i have epson 4900 printer, please advise the best exhibition 17 inches paper for me.
    I like this:

    Hahnemuhle FineArt Baryta Paper (17 x 22") - 25 10641412
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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by sheikh View Post
    guys i have epson 4900 printer, please advise the best exhibition 17 inches paper for me.
    I like Canson Baryta Photographique usually, and, lately, I've been kind of into MOAB Lasal Exhibition Lustre 300.

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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Vince - I think my advice to you is the same as to Douglas - just don't try it, or you'll be eating your words!

    all the best
    Tried it today.....and you're right....damn it

    Mike
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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    To be honest, Jono, I'm really not that worried about trying one. I only shoot in manual mode, and I don't even use the LCD screen, except for formatting my card, so much of the improved controls and LCD are lost on me.
    No matter the M camera I am always using my LCD to view the histogram which IMHO is about the most important feature on any digital M. In the case of the M, Leica has finally emulated the Monochrom histogram and made it reach both ends of the larger screen from left to right. It is now a thing of beauty in RGB.

    With regards to nice long R glass, the LCD, but more importantly the EVF, provides invaluable input into the image scene.

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    Re: My humble observation

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    In the case of the M, Leica has finally emulated the Monochrom histogram and made it reach both ends of the larger screen from left to right. It is now a thing of beauty in RGB.
    Huh? The MM offers a distinctive raw histogram.

    New M displays a run of the mill RGB histogram of the DNG's embedded tif file.

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