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Thread: New Mini M?

  1. #51
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    Re: New Mini M?

    The Photorumors admin hints about getting info of it being a Leica X with a zoom lens. Boring.
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    Re: New Mini M?

    The fuji X-10,20 series was very successful I think so perhaps they are doing a zoom aps-c with zooming rangefinder window but autofocus. Basically a fuji x-20 clone but bigger sensor.

    I think that fits the micro-mini-nano idea, the box in the teaser is just tall enough to put a window on top of the leica x2 with a zooming viewfinder.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    That makes sense, although utterly boring. Instead of calling it Leica X3 they may call it Leica Mini.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    I think an X style camera with an APS-C or larger sensor would be very interesting to me for a smaller travel camera provided it has a fast lens (1.4-2.5-ish) and decent range (21 or 24-90 or 135.) Kinda like a modern day upgraded Digilux 2.
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    Re: New Mini M?

    You guys are going to drink the cool aid and buy whatever they turn out, regardless of the quality and IQ, just because of the name.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikalWGrass View Post
    You guys are going to drink the cool aid and buy whatever they turn out, regardless of the quality and IQ, just because of the name.
    Nah... The only Leica I ever bought was the M9/M9-P and D-Lux 4. Never had interest in the X because it didn't fit my wants/ needs better than other alternatives. Some people may buy everything Leica but I think most people aren't collectors here.
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    Re: New Mini M?

    It's a re-badged Canon M.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    funny I actually was going to buy a eos M simply because it would go in the bag and be a backup to a dropped dslr - and take no space.

    didnt happen tho....

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by emr View Post
    The Photorumors admin hints about getting info of it being a Leica X with a zoom lens. Boring.
    Think this is the most likely

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post
    It's a re-badged Canon M.
    That is a bit too low, even for Leica. The Panasonic is easier to fool people with since they usually have a Leica badged lens on them.

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    New Mini M with autofocus lenses ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post

    Interesting!

    I'm betting on APS-C and interchangeable autofocus lenses. (...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post

    (...) It would be nice like Fuji to have a zoom and 3 primes in its own mount AF of course. (...)

    Interchangeable autofocus lenses would indeed be an interesting step, whatever sensor size.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    I'm not nearly as experienced with Leica or cameras as many here, so maybe this will sound ignorant...

    But my feeling is that Leica is realizing their main S and M lines have a limited markets, and cameras like the X2 are no where near serious enough for pros or even prosumer photographers...

    Thus, they need new segments to go after, and currently Leica offers no legit options for prosumers and pros [including journalists, bloggers, etc] in the 3k to 5k range, which is a good size market.

    Couple that with the fact that we are moving in the direction of smaller cameras with bigger sensors [look at response to what Sony is doing, and their push for FF... others will be following suit]. This makes me think anything BUT a FF on this "mini" makes it DOA.

    On the other hand, if Leica can create an RX1 competitor that's simpler, with fewer features but better lens performance, better looks, and built in EVF for around 4kish, I think it opens up a bunch of new customers for Leica that were never going to wait in line to spend 1Ok to 12k on an M body + a Summicron or Summilux lens.

    I'm not sure how typical I am... but I got in line for the new M and a Summilux 5O [11k + tax], then seeing what the RX1 was capable of for 28OO... it made me question the Leica and cancel my order. But then, I was just about to get the Sonya few days ago when I heard of this Leica announcement. So I'm waiting to see what Leica offers here....

    If it's FF, with a built in EVF and fast fixed lens and performs well... even if the price is 1k more than the RX1, I would happily pay a premium.

    But maybe I'm not that typical, so who knows!

    [Also, even if I'm in love with what's released... if Leica takes a year before they ship like some of their other cameras, I still might have to get an RX1 in the meantime just to hold me over.]

  13. #63
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Hi Anthony,

    As an ex-Sony, current-Leica employee I can almost guarantee you won't see a spec-for-spec RX1 competitor. With the low manufacturing overheads that Sony has they barely break even on the RX1 whilst offering terrible margin to their dealers (particularly on that product).
    Leica do have the X2 which is an APS-C sensor and a stop slower, it still sells well.

    Likewise you won't see an M competitor from Sony.

    My question would be, if you like the features of the RX1, what's holding you back? It has a very sharp lens with pleasing imaging characteristics, accessory EVF wouldn't push the price over 4k...
    Not trying to sound arrogant or anything but I don't think Leica have any issues finding customers for M.
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    Hi Anthony,

    As an ex-Sony, current-Leica employee I can almost guarantee you won't see a spec-for-spec RX1 competitor. With the low manufacturing overheads that Sony has they barely break even on the RX1 whilst offering terrible margin to their dealers (particularly on that product).
    Leica do have the X2 which is an APS-C sensor and a stop slower, it still sells well.

    Likewise you won't see an M competitor from Sony.
    Thanks for the reply. I don't expect spec by spec competitor, but something FF, compact and with EVF would be my dream... I guess it's just wishful thinking.

    In terms of pricing and profit, if the performance was there I think Leica could go as high as 5k on a FF compact with great fixed lens performance, but as you allude to, that still may not be enough to really be profitable.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    My question would be, if you like the features of the RX1, what's holding you back? It has a very sharp lens with pleasing imaging characteristics, accessory EVF wouldn't push the price over 4k...
    Not trying to sound arrogant or anything but I don't think Leica have any issues finding customers for M.
    I love the "leica look" and overall aesthetic, and have always wanted one...

    In terms of the Sony, I feel it's probably the closest, not to mention cheaper, compact, etc. My main issue is that I hate the extra EVF, I think it's ugly as sin and adds awkward size to the camera [wish they just included EVF, even if it made the body slightly bigger like the NEX]....

    But also, I would just rather have a Leica compact if it delivered similar performance, more "leica" character, and cost maybe 1 or 2k more. I'm willing to pay a premium for a Leica, but 1Ok or 12k for an M is a bit much... if I'm going to spend that much I'd almost rather just spend even more and go for the S line.

    True, Leica doesn't need me. They are not even meeting demand as it stands. But if they want to become a bigger, more profitable, more aggressively growing company in the next few years, I do think they need a much more serious camera in the 3k to 5k range, whatever the specs.

    I just hope it's not a disappointment and outdated immediately upon release, like the X2.

  16. #66
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    Re: New Mini M?

    The X2 may not be enormous aperture but it is a good balance of size and performance. Much more pocketable (and cheaper) than an RX1 and much better battery-life and high ISO than a Merrill.

    For 5K you are probably in used M territory 3+ years from now. If you need built-in EVF maybe wait for Sony to build one in a year or so, but I wouldn't expect M lenses to play nice on their sensor from what I've seen/heard.

    The issue with manufacturing something very similar to a Japanese camera company is mostly a retained value and perceived exclusivity one. The market for DSLR's is entirely flooded and if you ask almost any camera store if they make any profit out of DSLR they will say no - hence discontinuation of the R line. I know a lot of customers hate to think the store or the manufacturer make a profit but it is entirely necessary for the industry to survive. Throwing their hat into a very full ring isn't going to help Leica nor the industry as a whole.

    Obviously I can't comment on future products but I think now is a better time than ever to invest in the M system.

    To be fair, an S with a 70 summarit is roughly 3 times the price of an M with a 50 lux. They are as different as a Concord and a Porsche. Both get you somewhere but in an entirely different manner.
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Too many cameras and too little....

    That is what I say.
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    The X2 may not be enormous aperture but it is a good balance of size and performance. Much more pocketable (and cheaper) than an RX1 and much better battery-life and high ISO than a Merrill.

    For 5K you are probably in used M territory 3+ years from now. If you need built-in EVF maybe wait for Sony to build one in a year or so, but I wouldn't expect M lenses to play nice on their sensor from what I've seen/heard.

    The issue with manufacturing something very similar to a Japanese camera company is mostly a retained value and perceived exclusivity one. The market for DSLR's is entirely flooded and if you ask almost any camera store if they make any profit out of DSLR they will say no - hence discontinuation of the R line. I know a lot of customers hate to think the store or the manufacturer make a profit but it is entirely necessary for the industry to survive. Throwing their hat into a very full ring isn't going to help Leica nor the industry as a whole.

    Obviously I can't comment on future products but I think now is a better time than ever to invest in the M system.

    To be fair, an S with a 70 summarit is roughly 3 times the price of an M with a 50 lux. They are as different as a Concord and a Porsche. Both get you somewhere but in an entirely different manner.
    I agree, especially the last part... it's so easy [yet so unfair] to make apples to oranges comparisons, which is what many bloggers have done in comparing the RX1 to the M line. To be clear, I don't think the S and M are "similar" in pricing or in any other way really, just my personal preference that if I'm going to spend a "lot" of money, would rather go all the way and LOVE everything about the S... but anyway, very different cameras for different needs and styles. No point in comparing.

    Getting back to the topic at hand, if it was a smaller M body with M mount, with FF, no RF, built in EVF and sold between 4k and 5k, that would be cool too.

    Would still be pricy, especially when you factor in M lens cost, but a good option for those who want to shoot more traditionally with an M style camera that's smaller and saves a few bucks.

    Can't speak for anyone else, but for me the most important feature by far is that it's FF. I hope Leica realizes another FF camera won't necessarily cannibalize sales of their flagship M....

    Anyway, thanks for the insight Thrice, much appreciated.

  19. #69
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    Re: New Mini M?

    No worries Anthony, I don't have full insight into the roadmap so who knows.. they might surprise us both

    Cheers,
    Dan

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    Not trying to sound arrogant or anything but I don't think Leica have any issues finding customers for M.
    Sounds fair to me. I just would like to know if that is a personal view or Leica's official position.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    I remember reading somewhere that most enthusiasts (who have never heard of getdpi.com) who buy an interchangeable lens camera typically only use the kit lens.

    Maybe Leica has a full frame compact WATE/MATE with a couple of dedicated zoom settings. No need to pioneer a whole Fuji-like roadmaps of new lenses, and no competition with any of their other products. If you only have three focal lengths, even the zoom-detractors might be pleased by what the lens could offer image-wise.

    Anyway, nobody has suggested this yet, so maybe I can get some innovation points here!

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by corposant View Post
    I remember reading somewhere that most enthusiasts (who have never heard of getdpi.com) who buy an interchangeable lens camera typically only use the kit lens.

    Maybe Leica has a full frame compact WATE/MATE with a couple of dedicated zoom settings. No need to pioneer a whole Fuji-like roadmaps of new lenses, and no competition with any of their other products. If you only have three focal lengths, even the zoom-detractors might be pleased by what the lens could offer image-wise.

    Anyway, nobody has suggested this yet, so maybe I can get some innovation points here!
    After what Thrice said, I'm realizing that with what Fuji and Sony have done so well in the compact market, and given that they still don't make that much money... it would be impossible for Leica to have a similar performing camera even within 1k of their products.

    A Leica RX1 competitor, would have to be almost twice as much I'm guessing... which, given all the complaints about the RX price, would make the Leica version border on absurd.

    I wish Leica could do an RX1 competitor for 4k or a little more, but probably not happening

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthonyFlores View Post
    After what Thrice said, I'm realizing that with what Fuji and Sony have done so well in the compact market, and given that they still don't make that much money... it would be impossible for Leica to have a similar performing camera even within 1k of their products.

    A Leica RX1 competitor, would have to be almost twice as much I'm guessing... which, given all the complaints about the RX price, would make the Leica version border on absurd.

    I wish Leica could do an RX1 competitor for 4k or a little more, but probably not happening
    I think they already have an RX1 competitor in the X1/2... I think an entry level or more affordable system camera is "needed" though for more brand recognition provided availability isn't going to be a problem as it is generally with M and S cameras/ lenses. If it's a cropped sensor M-mount or if it's a new system that can support M lenses through adapters I don't think it'll cannibalize M sales heavily. Those who want a M (and can afford it) will still buy M's. Those who can't afford or don't need the M usually go mirrorless anyway. If anything it will help Leica drive long term M sales and I'm sure there are M users who would buy a Leica "mini M" camera if it supported M lenses as well.

    As it stands the M and definitely the S are "halo" products much like the 1Dx or D4 are for Canon and Nikon. Most people don't go straight to the halo products when getting into a system.
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    Re: New Mini M?

    i have an x1 and an rx1. i do not really consider the x1 to be a competitor to the rx1. can't speak to the x2, but the files alone from the rx1 are a pure delight to work with and the lens - well, it hasn't been widely praised for nothing. i also have an m9 and a couple of (imo) great lenses - the 50mm summilux asph and the 90/4 macro-elmar, along with a couple of other "lesser lights". but it's the rx1 that gets picked up and goes everywhere.

    sorry to hear the new mini will not be ff. but my wallet is happy.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Looks like a P&S cam. Leica are slowly opening the box (it is better than that curtain stuff that Olympus pulled before the launch of EP-1).

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Looks like a P&S cam. Leica are slowly opening the box (it is better than that curtain stuff that Olympus pulled before the launch of EP-1).

    Leica Camera AG - Home
    Maybe but from the "peek" it appears to be significantly larger than the X2 and barely smaller than the M... If the "peek" is to scale.
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    Re: New Mini M?

    "If it is to scale" With that caveat, the plot thickens and there is some reason for excitement.

    However, I threw in that EP1 curtain scenario just to temper that. Could be extremely disappointing for many.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    I doubt that it's a new mount, to risky. An M-mount CL size camera with 35mm sensor would be nice, but m4/3 is more likely. They make a couple of lenses for that already, and that market is much, much larger. A Leica version of the rumoured Panasonic GX2?

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Leica did say something a little over a year ago about coming out with another 'system' or 'system camera' below the M. I was expecting an announcement for Photokina, but it didn't happen.

    Mind you, Kaufmann also said in 2008 that a dozen new lenses would be announced in the next year, and that didn't happen.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    My thoughts:
    1. I think that an M-mount is unlikely - it would just cannibalize sales from the M/ME. I suppose it could be considered as a way to get people buying used M8's and M9's to buy something new, but my guess is no.
    2. It is supposed to be between and X2 and an M, so I think that a m4/3 sensor is unlikely. I seem to recall some comment from Leica management about 'at least APS-C', but I forget the exact context. I would guess an APS-C or M8 size sensor, although I don't know what the source would be for a current M8 size sensor.
    3. One rumour was of something with a fixed zoom lens. An alternative might be a lens with a set of fixed lengths, like a MATE/WATE: how about an APS-C sensor - either from Sony, but newer than the X2's sensor, or perhaps from CMOSIS - and a fixed 28/35/50/75/90 (equivalent) lens? More of a super-sized X2 than a down-sized (CL-sized) M, but it would be interesting. A built-in EVF would be nice, but I suspect that buying an add-on from Olympus is much more practical from a design/manufacturing/cost viewpoint.

    Only a couple of weeks until we know for sure.
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    Re: New Mini M?

    My feeling is that Leica in the recent past always went the conservative approach (route) with cameras that were marketed below the top of the line M cameras (like the M8, M8.2, M9 and new M). This time I'd love to see something a little more daring and innovative that still might be an entry way to interchangeable M lens photography. This could be one of three possibilities.

    The first would be a nice replacement to the original M8/M8.2 and have a 1.3x or Aps sized sensor in a modern day version of the Leica CL. Due to the lengths of the rangefinder base, frame lines in a traditional Leica style rangefinder would be more limited than a M8/M9 body, but this digital CL would be more compact with the possible introduction of very small Leica CL sized M lenses (28, 40 and 90mm.

    The 2nd route might be a small sized digital CL type body that takes M lenses but without the traditional Leica rangefinder, but instead have either built in EVF or optional add on EVF. Either way this body would have a very large rear LCD.

    Of course a 3rd option would be a digital Leica CL type body with both a traditional rangefinder and optional EVF...somewhat kin to the new M but smaller with a rangefinder base that again allowed more limited choice of frame lines but introduced some small compact CL type lenses.

    Either way, a body that took traditional M mount lenses but benefited from slower speed smaller, less expensive CL type M lenses.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I doubt that it's a new mount, to risky. An M-mount CL size camera with 35mm sensor would be nice, but m4/3 is more likely. They make a couple of lenses for that already, and that market is much, much larger. A Leica version of the rumoured Panasonic GX2?
    4/3rds is highly unlikely. Leica wrote that system off definitively with the Digilux3 and does not make lenses for it. The ones you mean are made by Panasonic with Leica cooperating in the design phase only.

    Additionally, the camera is positioned between the X2 and the M. An m4/3rds sensor cannot touch the image quality of an APS-C sensor like the X2, so that alone rules it out.
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    Re: New Mini M?

    My suspicion is that like most camera manufacturers, Leica makes more money on lenses than bodies and they seem to have sufficient production capacity at the moment to meet demand and then some. This would seem to suggest that a somewhat reduced capability M-mount body would be a profitable approach. My personal preference would be a smaller body, FF sensor, with an integrated EVF and M-mount.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    HI Jaap
    I hope that you're well
    Quote Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
    4/3rds is highly unlikely. Leica wrote that system off definitively with the Digilux3 and does not make lenses for it. The ones you mean are made by Panasonic with Leica cooperating in the design phase only.
    I quite agree with you here

    Quote Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
    Additionally, the camera is positioned between the X2 and the M. An m4/3rds sensor cannot touch the image quality of an APS-C sensor like the X2, so that alone rules it out.

    I radically disagree here - it seems to be a universally held belief that the APS-c sensor is so much bigger and that µ43 can never compete in terms of image quality:

    If you happen to like the 4/3 format, then the vertical difference is really small - this is not the difference between good image quality and bad. However, the reduced image circle required really does make a difference between lens size possibilities.

    So - whilst I agree with you that Leica aren't going down the µ43 route - I think it's actually rather a mistake.


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    Re: New Mini M?

    They're both tiny

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    They're both tiny
    Nano, Micro and tiny.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Looking forward to whatever it is.
    Maybe I can finally step out of m4/3 and replace it with an Mini M.
    I agree that the IQ difference between m4/3 and dx-size isn't so big any more.

    The other question will be... when will it be available?
    And the even more interesting question for me... when will the M 240 be available (for more than a few lucky people).

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post



    I radically disagree here - it seems to be a universally held belief that the APS-c sensor is so much bigger and that µ43 can never compete in terms of image quality:
    Best to you as well Jono
    You miss my point, I fear. If one positions a camera between an APS-C camera and a fullframe one, it cannot be a 4/3rds sensor, no matter whether the image quality differs not at all, marginally or quite a bit. Marketing has to take general perception into account.

    It might be diffferent if Leica would not have presented the camera as one of a tiered family.
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  39. #89
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Looking forward to whatever it is.
    Maybe I can finally step out of m4/3 and replace it with an Mini M.
    I agree that the IQ difference between m4/3 and dx-size isn't so big any more.

    The other question will be... when will it be available?
    And the even more interesting question for me... when will the M 240 be available (for more than a few lucky people).
    1) stepping out now of m43 with the new EP5 - you will mist the best of m43 so far!

    2) while the IQ difference between m43 and APSC is pretty small today, we should not forget that APSC is going to make the next big step (or has already - see Nikon D7100 with 24MP). It will sure take much longer for m43 to get there - and even then APSC will have made the next step already.

    But end of the day I agree, that IQ differences are getting smaller and less noticeable in everyday photography.

    I do though not feel so strong about that new Leica product, whatever sensor size it is, as it will again take ages for them to get it right.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    .... But end of the day I agree, that IQ differences are getting smaller and less noticeable in everyday photography.....
    ..except maybe for low light?
    Phil

  41. #91
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Even for "high light" there are huge differences and it will never get better as the larger sensor technology is also improving by leaps and bounds.

    To say that the mini sensors are better or almost as good is, at best, BS.

  42. #92
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Even for "high light" there are huge differences and it will never get better as the larger sensor technology is also improving by leaps and bounds.

    To say that the mini sensors are better or almost as good is, at best, BS.
    But you can say, that the smaller sensors are becoming as good that the differences are in the almost no longer noticeable areas.

    A difference will be always there!

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Yes, only if you compare an EP1 to an EP2 to an EP3 and so forth. Once in a while someone will be posting saying that an EM-5 or EP-5 is better or almost as good as something with an APS-C sensor only to be super seeded by the next generation APS-C sensored camera.

    Current generation micro 4/3rds will always be inferior to a current generation APS-C. That is the bottom line.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Looking forward to whatever it is.
    Maybe I can finally step out of m4/3 and replace it with an Mini M.
    I agree that the IQ difference between m4/3 and dx-size isn't so big any more.

    The other question will be... when will it be available?
    And the even more interesting question for me... when will the M 240 be available (for more than a few lucky people).
    Hi Tom,
    I just got an email from Martin Meister and it said:
    Die ersten mini LEICAs werden voraussichtlich gleich am 11. Juni verfügbar sein - in begrenzter Menge.
    And:
    Bei der neuen M (Typ 240) ist leider weiterhin weitaus mehr Geduld erforderlich als bei der neuen ? MINI M zu erwarten ist. LEICA schafft es nicht, die enorme Nachfrage zu befriedigen.

    Rough translation: A small amount of the new Leicas will be available as of june, 11. As for the new M, please be patient, Leica is unable to deliver fast, due to the large demand.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    ...
    Current generation micro 4/3rds will always be inferior to a current generation APS-C. That is the bottom line.
    Is that due to pixel size alone no matter what algorithm is used, given the same pixel count on both sensors (smaller pixels on m43 and larger pixels on APS-C)?
    Phil

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Well, looks like the camera has been leaked. It's a fixed zoom, aps-c camera, apparently:
    (UPDATED) First image of the Leica Mini M!!! | Mirrorless Rumors


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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Current generation micro 4/3rds will always be inferior to a current generation APS-C. That is the bottom line.
    Yes Vivek - it's undeniable
    Just as true as saying that a car which does 133 miles per hour is inferior to one that does 157 mph . . . . . or a camera which will do a 26.6" print is inferior to one which does a 31.4" print.

    But if µ43 is a 'mini' sensor - then so is APS-C.

    In the real world of real photos, the difference is likely to be much less than that that caused by a lens, or by an AA filter or by many other things.

    all the best

    Just this guy you know
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  48. #98
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Probably nice enough, something of an X3. Wise of Leica to leak. The expectations were getting out of hand, with the attendant crash to earth on June 11th. This way it is a soft landing.
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  49. #99
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Looks like an upgraded X rather than a downgraded M. Still, if they put the flash where the rangefinder window should be, it would "almost" be an M. Or at least almost look like it. Except for the zoom that is.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
    Probably nice enough, something of an X3. Wise of Leica to leak. The expectations were getting out of hand, with the attendant crash to earth on June 11th. This way it is a soft landing.
    Good point, although, from the looks of it, this is probably worse than I could have imagined.
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