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Thread: New Mini M?

  1. #101
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Every sensor smaller than mine is significantly worse. Every sensor bigger than mine is marginally better--I just was not so foolish to shell out for such a "small" improvement.
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    Good point, although, from the looks of it, this is probably worse than I could have imagined.
    It is a Fuji E-X1 with a fixed Fujinon lens. How cool is that?
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post

    But if 43 is a 'mini' sensor - then so is APS-C.
    Yup! MM rocks!
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
    Probably nice enough, something of an X3. Wise of Leica to leak. The expectations were getting out of hand, with the attendant crash to earth on June 11th. This way it is a soft landing.
    Quite agree Jaap

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Yup! MM rocks!
    Yup indeed - I've got mine now

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    It is a Fuji E-X1 with a fixed Fujinon lens. How cool is that?
    Downgraded Fuji XE-1. There is no built in EVF on the "Mini".

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Yup indeed - I've got mine now
    Hurrah!
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Glad they leaked, I guess it's RX1 for me.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Yikes, given this is the camera -then the Lens F3.5 to F6.4 really irks. Why not 3.5 to 4.5 or even 5.6 (I know size matters here) but lots of other companies seem to be able to make small zooms a bit faster. Then you are using up the presumably great ISO just using the lens zoomed out.

    my 2 cents.
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Well that was somewhat anticlimactic... Either way I'm sure it's a decent camera. If it had a bit more range on the long end, more speed in the lens, and a built in EVF then I would consider it. I don't understand the fascination with having to add accessory finders to every small bodied large sensor camera (with a few notable exceptions) these days. Well maybe it's time to look at the Fuji and OM-D again for a travel camera.
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Well, one thing is for sure, this will outsell the Hasselblad Lunar!
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Well, it looks similar to a M6 TTL top plate if that's any consolation.
    Last edited by monza; 28th May 2013 at 15:36.
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    Re: New Mini M?

    I don't understand how this camera fits under the new naming convention, as it has few commonalities with the Leica M system. This camera isn't a Mini M, seems more like an incrementally upgraded Micro M (or 'Maxi X').

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Well, it looks like an M6 TTL top plate if that's any consolation.
    Well let us not keep our hope up before we see how the bottom plate looks like!

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    But if 43 is a 'mini' sensor - then so is APS-C.
    Compare it then to an E-M5 with the 12-35mm f/2.8, some two and a half stop faster at the long end. Any advantage of the larger sensor has turned into dust. I don't plan to buy a Leica (not that I would mind), but if I did, there are better alternatives than this. A second hand M8 maybe? Even a used 8.2 doesn't cost much more than this.
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Compare it then to an E-M5 with the 12-35mm f/2.8, some two and a half stop faster at the long end. Any advantage of the larger sensor has turned into dust. I don't plan to buy a Leica (not that I would mind), but if I did, there are better alternatives than this. A second hand M8 maybe? Even a used 8.2 doesn't cost much more than this.
    Yes with the 1.5x crop this zoom will have the DOF of an iphone.

    Very poorly played Leica...

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    No, the new product is very exciting but for those that love the rangefinder experience and M glass it is not a replacement
    Can you please explain what's "very exciting" about this new product?
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    Re: New Mini M?

    A lot of people on the Leica forum are saying that this is clearly photoshopped and not even a good job. Let's pray that's the case....

    This is the kind of camera that's best saved for an afterthought at photokina, not something to hype up in the middle of the year.

    Still holding out hope it's a smaller FF with M mount that has AF contacts for a future line of AF M lenses. If it could be made at same profit margin but produced more rapidly due not having the complicated rangefinder... it would be a big boost for Leica and not really cannibalize their main M much. If anything, would lead to greater growth and lens sales.

    But I guess that would just make too much sense.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by snowboarder View Post
    Can you please explain what's "very exciting" about this new product?
    Silly you! The red dot of course!



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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    1) stepping out now of m43 with the new EP5 - you will mist the best of m43 so far!

    2) while the IQ difference between m43 and APSC is pretty small today, we should not forget that APSC is going to make the next big step (or has already - see Nikon D7100 with 24MP). It will sure take much longer for m43 to get there - and even then APSC will have made the next step already.

    But end of the day I agree, that IQ differences are getting smaller and less noticeable in everyday photography.

    I do though not feel so strong about that new Leica product, whatever sensor size it is, as it will again take ages for them to get it right.
    Yes Peter,
    and I dont really plan to step out m4/3 now. The m4/3 leaves me somewhat "cold" but whenever I grab for a light, flexible and weather proof camera with good IQ it is m4/3 and I get the images I want with it.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    There are all the other APS-C fixed zoom cameras to compete with as well.

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    New Mini M ?


    How come it says 70 on the zoom ring if it's supposed to be a 28-70mm equivalent ...

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    Re: New Mini M?

    I've asked that question over at the German section of LUF and the answer seems to be that the ol' Digilux 2 also had 35 mm eq markings on the lens. Still, I find all this quite confusing.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Got to be a fake , right? Such a poor spec for the money, even Leica will have trouble selling this lemon.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    It is a Fuji E-X1 with a fixed Fujinon lens. How cool is that?
    Actually I believe the leica lens is slower than the Fujinon ....even cooler !

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    It is a Fuji E-X1 with a fixed Fujinon lens. How cool is that?
    Absolutely incorrect.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Sure - this camera (if it exists) is not going to excite the denizens of internet fora and facebook groups - but then it clearly isn't supposed to.
    On the other hand, it's a unique product (fixed lens APS-c Zoom). Leica don't need a mass market, the question is not whether we like it, but whether others will buy it?
    As a sideline I showed the leaked document to my wife, who is a good photographer, but is about as likely to read an internet forum on photography as one on fly fishing. Her immediate response was that it looks really promising - she likes the X2, and she would like this more.

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  28. #128
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by jubbaa View Post
    Thrice knows!! And judging by his answers in this thread we can deduce that it is not :
    A digital CL
    A micro 4/3 rds offering
    A rangefinder M mount
    An M mount period
    Moving sensor
    A fixed lens FF
    APS interchangeable auto focus

    A
    So what's left that will fit between full frame rangefinder and fixed lens aps sensor ? ...If its not an M mount think it would be unlikely for Leica to bring out a whole new system , so I am going for ...
    A fixed lens with a different sensor inside ( not FF , not APS )

    :-)
    Looking through this list... well, I have nothing to lose. I'm not a Leica user anymore. Don't even have Leica glass now.

    I'll go out on a limb and say a small APS-C sensor sized camera (similar in size to Panasonic GX1) with a NEW mount, NEW series of MANUAL focus lenses, more like the summarit designs. The existing M lenses which are already quite small have to cover 35mm full frame, imagine how much smaller they can be only covering APS-C sensors and if only MF. All they have to do is release three lenses like 28/45/90 (35 equivalents) aka the Contax G1/2 series or Konica Hexar RF and you have a system. Many people bought a three lens kit and it was only later that additional lenses were added by Contax. EVF is likely or it will poach sales from the M system.


    If it sells well, offer more glass later. Manual focus lenses are what Leica know how to make, I am sure they can make them cheaper with lesser materials.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Sure - this camera (if it exists) is not going to excite the denizens of internet fora and facebook groups - but then it clearly isn't supposed to.
    On the other hand, it's a unique product (fixed lens APS-c Zoom). Leica don't need a mass market, the question is not whether we like it, but whether others will buy it?
    This is exactly what thrice (Daniel) said earlier. Different words than the Lunar fellows used but with pretty much the same message.

    Disappointing.

    The only unique product that captured my attention and my money is the MM. I don't know if it is dumb desperation or sheer genius that drove Leica to bring it out in the mass market but they did hit the ball out the park with that. What makes the experience even sweeter for me is that I do not have to mount a single Leica made lens on it (or the $60 plastic flash shoe cover!)!

    Can't say the same with the dumbed down XE-1, oops, I meant the "Mini M"

    Having said that, I welcome anyone who would buy such stuff for full retail price. Perhaps in another 10 years time, Leica might bring out something unique and useful as well.

    Long live Leica!
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Sure - this camera (if it exists) is not going to excite the denizens of internet fora and facebook groups - but then it clearly isn't supposed to.
    On the other hand, it's a unique product (fixed lens APS-c Zoom). Leica don't need a mass market, the question is not whether we like it, but whether others will buy it?
    As a sideline I showed the leaked document to my wife, who is a good photographer, but is about as likely to read an internet forum on photography as one on fly fishing. Her immediate response was that it looks really promising - she likes the X2, and she would like this more.
    I agree , if this is indeed the new leica it is unique in its offering . However just because its unique doesn't make it any good. The question is what is it offering that others aren't?

    Camera's like the x2 or x100 were unique in offering APS sensors in small packages , or DSLR quality without the bulk if you like . So why would you, your wife or anyone buy this over the Fuji XE-1 with the Kit zoom when the Fuji offers the same , in the same size package ( by the looks of it ) , with the addition of a built in EVF ( I read somewhere that the leica won't have one ) , a faster zoom lens, and more crucially the option to change the lens...and all for $2000 less...

    At the moment its all hear say , speculation and rumour and even if this picture is the real deal the proof will be in the pudding as they say . Only once its been used in the real world and we have had a chance to see real world examples of the image quality will we be able to judge if it is worth spending $3k on this despite its apparent shortcomings.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    My radar is deflated now. Ill hang onto my Fuji X E-1
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by jubbaa View Post
    I agree , if this is indeed the new leica it is unique in its offering . However just because its unique doesn't make it any good. The question is what is it offering that others aren't?

    Camera's like the x2 or x100 were unique in offering APS sensors in small packages , or DSLR quality without the bulk if you like . So why would you, your wife or anyone buy this over the Fuji XE-1 with the Kit zoom when the Fuji offers the same , in the same size package ( by the looks of it ) , with the addition of a built in EVF ( I read somewhere that the leica won't have one ) , a faster zoom lens, and more crucially the option to change the lens...and all for $2000 less...
    Well. Me, I'd have an OMD with the penny 12-35 (already have one)

    My wife however understands aperture and shutter speeds and focal length, she doesn't want interchangeable lenses or scene modes or programmable buttons or endless configuration menus. . . . What's more, she won't touch a camera which has these things. If she can't figure out a camera in ten minutes she won't use it (I know this to my cost).

    Both my wife and my oldest sons partner use and like Leica X cameras (having been irritated by a stream of other cameras including a Fuji x100). Both are scarily intelligent, and I think I can honestly say that neither has ever read a camera review.

    Quote Originally Posted by jubbaa View Post
    I
    At the moment its all hear say , speculation and rumour and even if this picture is the real deal the proof will be in the pudding as they say . Only once its been used in the real world and we have had a chance to see real world examples of the image quality will we be able to judge if it is worth spending $3k on this despite its apparent shortcomings.
    I think that my point was that this camera (if, indeed it exists) isn't going to sell to people who read camera reviews or Internet forums, and there are quite enough of those people to make it a success.

    All the best

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    This is exactly what thrice (Daniel) said earlier. Different words than the Lunar fellows used but with pretty much the same message.

    Disappointing.!
    Only disappointing for we camera geeks who were hoping for something different

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The only unique product that captured my attention and my money is the MM. I don't know if it is dumb desperation or sheer genius that drove Leica to bring it out in the mass market but they did hit the ball out the park with that. What makes the experience even sweeter for me is that I do not have to mount a single Leica made lens on it (or the $60 plastic flash shoe
    I think you have to give them the benefit of doubt over the MM. There's always an element of luck in sheer genius anyway, but it certainly wasn't desperation!

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post


    I think you have to give them the benefit of doubt over the MM.
    I do and I did.

    BTW, Despite having several unanswered questions about the technicalities of the MM ( I am sure no answer will be forthcoming so no point in saying anything about them), the doubt of dumb desperation about Leica going ahead with a brilliant idea and actually bringing out the product is still there. I am sure there are many brilliant people employed at Leica, being a very technically oriented business and all.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    It's pretty much a modern day Digilux 2 minus the integrated EVF and aperture control on the lens.

    In terms of angle of view and DOF, the D2 was equivalent to 27-88mm f/7.8-9.4, whereas the Mini M (if leaked specs are real) is equivalent to 28-70mm f/5.2-9.6

    If it gets all the other stuff right (lens not extending with zoom, great lens performance, great sensor, great controls), it could be a very useful and enjoyable camera for people who meet the following criteria:

    - Like dials for exposure compensation and shutter speed
    - Like great build quality
    - Like straightforward controls and menus
    - Don't care much about shallow DOF or great handheld lowlight image quality
    - Want a camera that is smaller than Fuji X-E1 and 18-55 zoom with a lens that doesn't extend while zooming
    - Have "extra" money to spend

    I only meet 4 of those criteria, so it's definitely not a camera for me (if leaked specs are real)
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  36. #136
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    It's pretty much a modern day Digilux 2 minus the integrated EVF and aperture control on the lens.

    In terms of angle of view and DOF, the D2 was equivalent to 27-88mm f/7.8-9.4, whereas the Mini M (if leaked specs are real) is equivalent to 28-70mm f/5.2-9.6

    If it gets all the other stuff right (lens not extending with zoom, great lens performance, great sensor, great controls), it could be a very useful and enjoyable camera for people who meet the following criteria:

    - Like dials for exposure compensation and shutter speed
    - Like great build quality
    - Like straightforward controls and menus
    - Don't care much about shallow DOF or great handheld lowlight image quality
    - Want a camera that is smaller than Fuji X-E1 and 18-55 zoom with a lens that doesn't extend while zooming
    - Have "extra" money to spend

    I only meet 4 of those criteria, so it's definitely not a camera for me (if leaked specs are real)
    Unfortunately, the way I see it, people that want dials and straightforward controls probably are the same people that want shallow DOF. But the kicker is the 'extra money.'



    So, who is this for? If indeed, CSI: Mini M has leaked the real thing...
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Looks to Elvis like a depth of field scale where the lens meets the body. How would that work with a zoom of this kind?
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Unfortunately, the way I see it, people that want dials and straightforward controls probably are the same people that want shallow DOF. But the kicker is the 'extra money.'



    So, who is this for? If indeed, CSI: Mini M has leaked the real thing...
    Well, supposing its real; how about someone who used to do some photography, but let it slide when digital came along. Can't be bothered with interchangeable lenses, but would like a quality all in one camera, and for whom that sort of money isn't too much of an object? There aren't going to be millions of people like that, on the other hand there isn't that much competition.
    How about a new grandparent who fancied their photographs when their kids were young?

    One thing you can be sure of is that they won't be reading this forum!

    I like Amin's appraisal.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    This getting to be totally unbelievable! No matter how much money Leica may pay me, I would never get myself to defend such crap ( Not that I am suggesting that you are on Leica's payroll, Jono.).

    Such film folks have moved onto better things. Photography, film/digital, whatever, existed/exists besides Luxury goods with limited use.

    Similar impossible aruguments, with different scenario were put forth for the Lunar!
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Unfortunately, the way I see it, people that want dials and straightforward controls probably are the same people that want shallow DOF. But the kicker is the 'extra money.'



    So, who is this for? If indeed, CSI: Mini M has leaked the real thing...
    Make belief granparents, of course!
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    How about a new grandparent who fancied their photographs when their kids were young?
    And how is he/she going to take snaps of the grandchildren playing in the livingroom?
    Who here truly believes that the AF of this camere (if it exists) is going to be fast enough? Or who believes the high ISO performance will be adequate for such a task? Especially with such a slow lens?

    IMHO this camera would be more of a holiday-knipser in the Caribbean or Mediterranean with lost of light. But for that purpose I guess it will be to big/clunky/heavy compared to the competition ...

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Come on, Peter! A Leica can never be called clunky.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Ah, yes! Forgot about that ...
    I'm sure they'll make available a nice big never ready case for it, for let's say €299

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    This getting to be totally unbelievable! No matter how much money Leica may pay me, I would never get myself to defend such crap ( Not that I am suggesting that you are on Leica's payroll, Jono.).

    Such film folks have moved onto better things. Photography, film/digital, whatever, existed/exists besides Luxury goods with limited use.

    Similar impossible aruguments, with different scenario were put forth for the Lunar!
    HI Vivek
    I can't possibly admit that something my wife would like is crap - so, hey, I have to disagree with you. Added to which I (sometimes) like zoom lenses.

    The problem with the Lunar is the obvious and impossible vulgarity of the thing. Beyond the price tag (which is much less than the Lunar, and which includes a lens) I can't see any vulgarity here.

    But I think you have a problem in describing something you don't want (I don't want one either) as crap. I mean, I don't want a Passat estate either - or a Nissan Leaf, or a Ferrari - but I understand that other people do want these things and I can see a good reason for all of them. . . . . for some people.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: New Mini M?

    The more I look at this, the more I think it's not what we will see next month...

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by peterv View Post
    And how is he/she going to take snaps of the grandchildren playing in the livingroom?
    Who here truly believes that the AF of this camere (if it exists) is going to be fast enough? Or who believes the high ISO performance will be adequate for such a task? Especially with such a slow lens?
    Well, that's something we'll have to wait to find out about (if the camera exists). The AF on the X2 is fast enough however, and the ISO performance is good enough too, so it isn't beyond the bounds of possibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by peterv View Post
    IMHO this camera would be more of a holiday-knipser in the Caribbean or Mediterranean with lost of light. But for that purpose I guess it will be to big/clunky/heavy compared to the competition ...
    Well, I'd subscribe to the cruise ship clientele - and as I understand there are thousands of cruise ships plying the pretty places of this world, full of grandparents with loads of disposable income . . . I guess that the new Mini M (if it exists) is just what they've all been waiting for!

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    Re: New Mini M?

    With the excellent Zeiss lens on the Sony RX and I'm sure other companies improving their optics... Leica's biggest advantage is starting to disappear. I don't think they can keep growing while being so behind the specs and features of other cameras on the market... especially when asking for so much more money.

    Otherwise, Leica should just focus only on the M rangefinder and S series, two successful niche markets for them that bigger companies are less likely to compete in, and make the decision to not be anywhere they have to actually compete with other companies on specs and technology advances.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Well, that's something we'll have to wait to find out about (if the camera exists). The AF on the X2 is fast enough however, and the ISO performance is good enough too, so it isn't beyond the bounds of possibility.
    No, theoretically it isn't. But we all know that the X1/2 are not exactly fast performers in the AF department, so that doesn't bode well for this (fictional) camera. And the Sony sensor on the X's is now 3/4 years old. Whether it's good enough for 1/125 @ f6,4 indoors remains to be seen ...
    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Well, I'd subscribe to the cruise ship clientele - and as I understand there are thousands of cruise ships plying the pretty places of this world, full of grandparents with loads of disposable income . . . I guess that the new Mini M (if it exists) is just what they've all been waiting for!
    I agree, there's quite a potential there, which is fine by me, because Leica can use the profit for their M and S line .
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Vivek
    I can't possibly admit that something my wife would like is crap - so, hey, I have to disagree with you. Added to which I (sometimes) like zoom lenses.

    The problem with the Lunar is the obvious and impossible vulgarity of the thing. Beyond the price tag (which is much less than the Lunar, and which includes a lens) I can't see any vulgarity here.

    But I think you have a problem in describing something you don't want (I don't want one either) as crap. I mean, I don't want a Passat estate either - or a Nissan Leaf, or a Ferrari - but I understand that other people do want these things and I can see a good reason for all of them. . . . . for some people.
    Hi Jono,

    i do not have a problem with describing crap as crap just like you say that no mini M buyer would read a forum like this.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthonyFlores View Post
    With the excellent Zeiss lens on the Sony RX and I'm sure other companies improving their optics... Leica's biggest advantage is starting to disappear. I don't think they can keep growing while being so behind the specs and features of other cameras on the market... especially when asking for so much more money.

    Otherwise, Leica should just focus only on the M rangefinder and S series, two successful niche markets for them that bigger companies are less likely to compete in, and make the decision to not be anywhere they have to actually compete with other companies on specs and technology advances.
    Yeah, I just got an RX1 today, and the lens is fantastic...like, really, really fantastic. My 35/2 ASPH is better than the RX1's lens in some ways (distortion and LOCA,) but there are things about the Zeiss lens that are better, too, so I'd call it a draw, or maybe even advantage RX1.

    To me, the beauty of Leica 35mm is the rangefinder. If you don't need that, there are a lot of great options out there.

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