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Thread: New Mini M?

  1. #351
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    Re: New Mini M?

    I'm gonna go with "told ya so."

  2. #352
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Tom, It is your money and your call.

    Personally, I would invest in Fuji though : http://www.getdpi.com/forum/fuji/465...panasonic.html
    Hi Vivek.
    I sold my x-pro 1 which is a great camera because I found the system too close to the M-system, and while the IQ was very good I preferred the IQ of the M9/MM.
    For a smaller camera when I need AF and zoom my choice is the OMD, which also has the advantage to be weatherproof. The camera doesn't handle as nice as the Fuji (IMO), and its a bit overloaded with functions, but the IQ is fine, the colors are great, and it is very fast.
    So I don't really have the need for something new.
    I just thought that the new Leica x vario could indeed be a nice camera, straight user interface, good iq, not too big. Of course for a Leica price.
    I don't have the need for it now.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    This camera is clearly not intended for people who participate here. If you are not an enthusiast and you walk into a Leica boutique while on vacation somewhere nice, this camera fills a niche in the wall (so to speak) and might actually sell. Look at it this way, it's cheaper than most of the Leica lenses, so you get a camera for free!

    Not for me, but I already have an M.
    Brad Husick

  4. #354
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    Re: New Mini M?

    It's targeted towards the well-heeled, brand-conscious, who know nothing about photography. Those that buy watches or jewelry or artwork on a whim while on a cruise shore excursion. And Leica will probably sell as many as they want to sell; it's not about market share or volume.

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    Thumbs down Re: New Mini M?

    It's not small. It's not light. It's not fast. It's not FF. It's not interchangeable lens. It's not cheap. Meet the Leica X Vario.
    That Leica should be allocating R&D resources, of which they have so few compared to their Japanese competitors, on such projects boggles the mind.
    I tried one today without taking any pics. It is a very nice-feeling piece of gear. But methinks it is a lot more Maybach than Porsche...

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    Re: New Mini M?

    I had to look up what that is (Maybach - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

    The mini M , does it have the same 16MP Sony sensor?

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Yes, the same as the X2 according to my dealer. Which means the same as my NEX 5N.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Thanks! That is a good sensor. Does very well in my NEX 5N' and the NEX-6's.

    With the Speed Booster, well, f/0.9 is a reality at a fraction of the cost. Oh, yeah, even Leica R lenses could be used.

    Oh, the kitzoom 18-55 that I bought from Jono is not shabby either.

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    Re: New Mini M?


  10. #360
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post
    DN,

    The vitriol unleashed upon Leica, even on their Facebook page is bordering on hysteria.
    It has been reiterated here in many ways by many that this camera is not for the internet users or anyone from this forum.

    May be Leica do not read any of the stuff and perhaps they do not need to either.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    It has been reiterated here in many ways by many that this camera is not for the internet users or anyone from this forum.

    May be Leica do not read any of the stuff and perhaps they do not need to either.
    Leica will sell plenty of these cameras, I have no doubt.

  12. #362
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Yup!

    It has no WiFi connectivity so no owner will ever come to know about all this negativity and the baseless thrashing.
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    Re: New Mini M?

    I actually find the marketing quite questionable.
    They teased a "Mini M" and I can really understand those, that feel cheated on.
    "M" is for Messsucher, no question!

    ...or am I wrong?
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    Re: New Mini M?

    M is for "meh."
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by OlliL View Post
    I actually find the marketing quite questionable.
    They teased a "Mini M" and I can really understand those, that feel cheated on.
    "M" is for Messsucher, no question!

    ...or am I wrong?
    They call the Leica badged Olympus EVF as a Visoflex. I was told (elsewhere) by someone that it was named as such in "memory" of the original Visoflex.

    That would be great if the M was discontinued and no current camera has any use for the visoflex.

    There is a disconnect somewhere.
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  16. #366
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Forgot about that one...that's bad, too!
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Isnt the rx1 Sonys copy of the x1 4 years after Leica presented the x1?
    OK, it is full frame, and one f-stop faster, and sturdier built, but then it is also quite a bit bigger and heavier. (Wasn't the idea to build a pockable camera with a large sensor?)
    Comparing the new x vario with the rx1 doesn't make much sense to me, different cameras.
    For my part my choice for a pockable large sensor camera is the Coolpix A at the moment.
    For me the rx1 is a camera in between the x2 and a Leica M in regards of size and feel/user interface. Too big for some, to small for other , just right for many.
    For me too close to the M. (I guess the same could be valid for the x vario)

    The nice thing... except the Canon gx1 most large sensor "compacts" are prime cameras. So from now on people who like to use a zoom have an option as well.
    i have both. the rx1 and the x1 are not comparable for one reason as far as i'm concerned. i like to shoot longer rather than wider, so the chances of a 35mm focal length camera/lens becoming my weapon of choice are diminished to begin with. the x1 never became my go to camera. the rx1 has and the m9, longer lenses included, are on leave of absence and have been for months.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    This camera is clearly not intended for people who participate here. If you are not an enthusiast and you walk into a Leica boutique while on vacation somewhere nice, this camera fills a niche in the wall (so to speak) and might actually sell. Look at it this way, it's cheaper than most of the Leica lenses, so you get a camera for free!

    Not for me, but I already have an M.
    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    It's targeted towards the well-heeled, brand-conscious, who know nothing about photography. Those that buy watches or jewelry or artwork on a whim while on a cruise shore excursion. And Leica will probably sell as many as they want to sell; it's not about market share or volume.
    I'm surprised how you come to the conclusion who's it exactly for! I get it that the camera may not be for you, and by any standards, at least, it's not a Hasselblad Lunar!
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by pophoto View Post
    I'm surprised how you come to the conclusion who's it exactly for! I get it that the camera may not be for you, and by any standards, at least, it's not a Hasselblad Lunar!
    QFT!

    ...consider the Xv as a bargain - it's 1/3 the price of the Lunar!

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Po, What standards would that be, now that you invoke the Lunar?

    It may not appeal to you but still is a superb Sony camera with 24MP sensor and a kit zoom that has a longer reach and with OIS. Moreover, it does come with a lens hood, nice strap and a hotshoe cover- free no extra cash required!

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post
    QFT!

    ...consider the Xv as a bargain - it's 1/3 the price of the Lunar!
    The prices are comparable.

    Consider the Sony NEX-5n kit vs that of the Sony NEX-7 kit (with addded appropriate premia, ofcourse).

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Po, What standards would that be, now that you invoke the Lunar?

    It may not appeal to you but still is a superb Sony camera with 24MP sensor and a kit zoom that has a longer reach and with OIS. Moreover, it does come with a lens hood, nice strap and a hotshoe cover- free no extra cash required!
    Just "any."
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    Re: New Mini M?

    No matter how you look at it, it's smaller than the M and has a similar form factor and ergonomics - just like the X2. That's nice that the family is all similar if you have multiple bodies.

    Now assuming the M platform had a zoom, let alone such a nice range of "28-70mm" (equivalent), it would be a similar size and bulk as this. You can't make it faster and maintain a small size - which is perhaps even more of a transgression against the "M aesthetic."

    "This one goes to 12,500." A decent top-end on ISO means that this zoom lens isn't all that slow anymore - especially if you consider the camera has a built-in flash.

    Say what you will, the X2 made nice pictures, as does this camera from what we've seen so far. I'll take an APS-C sized sensor over smaller ones any day. Okay, it's not full frame... You have to draw the line somewhere, and the zoom takes this into account. No harm, no foul.

    I dare say this IS a "Mini M" in many ways...

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post

    I dare say this IS a "Mini M" in many ways...
    D Neg: I agree with most of what you have said, except the last part, let's be honest (more so saying to Leica), it's really a Fat-X, rather than a Mini-M
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post

    I dare say this IS a "Mini M" in many ways...
    I had been yapping around for a long time.



    So, here are my Mini Ms.


    (Image snapped with the NEX-7 that I bought from Jono)

    24mm, 35mm, 42mm, 64mm Leitz Summars all with a maximum apertures of f/4.5. All infinity corrected (though they were meant as macro lenses to be used on a Leitz Aristophot). All usable on the NEX from infinity to up close. I use them. I have even posted some pictures taken with them though I have not heard a single question about a 35mm Summar or a 24mm Summar.

    Absolutely top notch performance on a modern sensor and all are diffraction limited wide open.

    On another historical note (that I read somewhere)....the rare 42/4.5 Summar (not this sample!) was the one that was used to assemble the Liliputkamera (Ur-Leica).

  26. #376
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Dimension check:

    Fuji X100s: 5"w x 2.91"h 2.3 Million dot Hybrid EVF

    Fuji X-E1: 5.08"w x 2.95"h 2.3 Million dot EVF

    NEX-7: 4.72"w x 2.64"h 2.3 Million dot EVF

    NEX-6: 4.72"w x 2.64"h 2.3 Million dot EVF

    Leica X Vario: 5.25"w x 2.87"h No built-in EVF

    And Leica couldn't equip the X Vario couildn't with a built-in EVF because...
    (But it has a swell 900K dot LCD!)
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    Re: New Mini M?

    My father-in-law's old panasonic with a 6mp sensor, poor ISO and a leica vario lens still takes really great snaps. I think the lens has more to do with IQ than sensors these days. Some people want a Leica but can't afford an M with 3 lenses or don't want the hassle of a manual camera! It seems a sensible product for Leica to release.

  28. #378
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    Re: New Mini M?

    All this bashing of the X Vario and Leica has become boring.
    Please move on and bash something more interesting.

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    I couldn't be less interested ...

    ... in a camera like the M-mini. My only grip with this camera is that the Leica factory in Portugal could have been building more M240's.

    The M240 was announced in September last year and over the course of the 9 months that have followed, my Leica dealer (a Leica A dealer) has received 2 (TWO) M bodies.
    Last edited by lambert; 11th June 2013 at 23:29. Reason: typo

  30. #380
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Out of curiosity, how much would have been involved for Leica to have made basically the same exact camera, but had it accept/mount interchangeable M lenses? They still could have developed and offered the same zoom lens but at the same time filled in the gap between the X2 and current full frame M cameras. I assume it would have been the same size and still could have targeted two different sales markets. The one it was originally designed to attract and those that use and prefer to use M mount lenses designed.

    Then if this new camera proved successful as a someone more affordable way to get into Leica M photography, Leica could always have the option in the future to market Smaller and possibly less expensive APS sized (only) lenses, although they wouldn't necessarily have to invest in them. I just get the feelings that if they had designed and marketed this new camera this way, they would have possibly had the potential for a longer production run, greater market appeal and sales and the option to continue to develop this entry level M system...not to mention a percentage of users eventually moving up to the full frame "M".

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 12th June 2013 at 07:00.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Out of curiosity, how much would have been involved for Leica to have made basically the same exact camera, but had it accept/mount interchangeable M lenses? They still could have developed and offered the same zoom lens but at the same time filled in the gap between the X2 and current full frame M cameras. I assume it would have been the same size and still could have targeted two different sales markets. The one it was originally designed to attract and those that use and prefer to use M mount lenses designed.
    Leica is not going to make another manul focus lens system. If you want a new M, you have to buy the $7000 model.

    Then if this new camera proved successful as a someone more affordable way to get into Leica M photography, Leica could always have the option in the future to market Smaller and possibly less expensive APS sized (only) lenses, although they wouldn't necessarily have to invest in them. I just get the feelings that if they had designed and marketed this new camera this way, they would have possibly had the potential for a longer production run, greater market appeal and sales and the option to continue to develop this entry level M system...not to mention a percentage of users eventually moving up to the full frame "M".
    This camera fills a very important niche for Leica. It is for the non-photographer who walks into a Leica boutique, falls in love with the brand, wants to make an impulse buy, doesn't want to buy a M and prime lens for $10,000, doesn't want a fixed lens camera (X2), and requires a zoom. Now Leica can offer this to them. Most people are disapointed because they were not the target buyer for the product. Most people here will bitch and complain about Leica not making a cheap er M, but then wouldn't buy it if they did.
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Out of curiosity, how much would have been involved for Leica to have made basically the same exact camera, but had it accept/mount interchangeable M lenses? They still could have developed and offered the same zoom lens but at the same time filled in the gap between the X2 and current full frame M cameras. I assume it would have been the same size and still could have targeted two different sales markets. The one it was originally designed to attract and those that use and prefer to use M mount lenses designed.

    Then if this new camera proved successful as a someone more affordable way to get into Leica M photography, Leica could always have the option in the future to market Smaller and possibly less expensive APS sized (only) lenses, although they wouldn't necessarily have to invest in them. I just get the feelings that if they had designed and marketed this new camera this way, they would have possibly had the potential for a longer production run, greater market appeal and sales and the option to continue to develop this entry level M system...not to mention a percentage of users eventually moving up to the full frame "M".

    Dave (D&A)

    Dave (D&A)


    It is better this way. Landfill material with a dated sensor/technology.

    It is the NEX-5N sensor. The NEX-6 has PD AF sensors built in the sensor.

    Wish they had not said that this was the "Mini M".

    Did you see the unboxing videos? Jewellery box. Unfortunately cardboard and not lacquered real wood. They could have used Greek Mastic to be distinct.

    That is a bigger let down.

  33. #383
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by JSRockit View Post
    Leica is not going to make another manul focus lens system. If you want a new M, you have to buy the $7000 model.



    This camera fills a very important niche for Leica. It is for the non-photographer who walks into a Leica boutique, falls in love with the brand, wants to make an impulse buy, doesn't want to buy a M and prime lens for $10,000, doesn't want a fixed lens camera (X2), and requires a zoom. Now Leica can offer this to them. Most people are disapointed because they were not the target buyer for the product. Most people here will bitch and complain about Leica not making a cheap er M, but then wouldn't buy it if they did.
    I somehow feel you may have mis-understood the intention of my original post. I wasn't suggesting that they develop another whole manual focus lens system. Simply develop this X2 Vario but have it have an interchangeable lens mount. The same market they originally were targeting wouldn't change as the camera could be offered in a simple kit with that zoom lens. Yet in addition to that market would be a number of other markets such as those current M9/M-E and new "M" users looking for a 2nd body (possibly back-up) that has attributes and strengths different than say their current M9. Namely an EVF, focus peaking, more compact body etc. Then a third market would be those who don't want a mechanical rangefinder body but prefer those with EVF, focus peaking etc. but want to get into M lens photography due to their great optics.

    This sort of camera would I believe would appeal to a much wider and diverse audience and wouldn't take away from current M body sales but I believe greatly add to them and it certainly wouldn't take away from the exclusivity of that $7,000 club, so to speak.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    It's targeted towards the well-heeled, brand-conscious, who know nothing about photography. Those that buy watches or jewelry or artwork on a whim while on a cruise shore excursion. And Leica will probably sell as many as they want to sell; it's not about market share or volume.
    I agree. Many are just mad Leica didn't make a $1000 M digital rangefinder.
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    This sort of camera would I believe would appeal to a much wider and diverse audience and wouldn't take away from current M body sales but I believe greatly add to them and it certainly wouldn't take away from the exclusivity of that $7,000 club, so to speak.
    Luxury brands do not want to cater to the masses.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Out of curiosity, how much would have been involved for Leica to have made basically the same exact camera, but had it accept/mount interchangeable M lenses? ...
    Quite a lot, I suspect. Just the lack of focal plane shutter makes it a big deal. Forget offering the same zoom lens and features as an option.

    But I would like to see an XM.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Quite a lot, I suspect. Just the lack of focal plane shutter makes it a big deal. Forget offering the same zoom lens and features as an option.

    But I would like to see an XM.

    G
    What would that be?

    Even Pentax Q, Nikon 1, EOS-M and such come with a focal plane shutter.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Afaik, Leica didn't stop making cameras yet. Who knows what the next one would be. Maybe the XM so many here seem to desperately want?
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    It's targeted towards the well-heeled, brand-conscious, who know nothing about photography. Those that buy watches or jewelry or artwork on a whim while on a cruise shore excursion. And Leica will probably sell as many as they want to sell; it's not about market share or volume.
    Do you know Robert - I think this is a patronising attitude, and it's also really not very likely.

    It's not a point and shoot - it's encouraging you to use manual controls - it also has very good image quality - as good as the primes in most cameras.
    . . . . but that's not the point.

    I've seen hundreds of posts now from people saying/implying that people who don't read photo forums know nothing about photography - this is clearly rubbish.

    Saying that only people who know nothing about photography would buy this camera is also rubbish.

    My wife has had many cameras inflicted on her over the years, but the only one she has really liked is a Pentax K1000 which she was given by her father for a birthday present - in about 1995 she dropped it and broke the lens mount. Since then I've tried this and that, and she just hasn't liked them.

    This camera she does like - she can choose the aperture and shutter speed (or not) focus herself (or not) and it produces really good images, sharp to the corner every time. She never needs to go in the menus, its all there on the body, obvious and easy to get at - There must be thousands of people like this - she knows plenty about photography and NOTHING about photo forums.

    When this camera arrived on my doorstep in December I thought DOH! why wouldn't I use an OMD with the 12-35. The reason is that this takes better pictures and is more fun to use - and the proof of this is that I have both of these cameras sitting on the sideboard, and I tend to grab one of them when I'm out walking the dog - it's almost always the Leica.

    The slowness of the lens is a symptom of it's raison d'Ítre - it's a really really good lens - like that 28-90, and it only manages to be that good, and that small, by being that slow!

    Sorry to be grumpy - but insulting people who decide to buy something you don't want is (I think) pretty poor form.

    off
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    Just this guy you know
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  40. #390
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Do you know Robert - I think this is a patronising attitude, and it's also really not very likely.

    It's not a point and shoot - it's encouraging you to use manual controls - it also has very good image quality - as good as the primes in most cameras.
    . . . . but that's not the point.

    I've seen hundreds of posts now from people saying/implying that people who don't read photo forums know nothing about photography - this is clearly rubbish.

    Saying that only people who know nothing about photography would buy this camera is also rubbish.

    My wife has had many cameras inflicted on her over the years, but the only one she has really liked is a Pentax K1000 which she was given by her father for a birthday present - in about 1995 she dropped it and broke the lens mount. Since then I've tried this and that, and she just hasn't liked them.

    This camera she does like - she can choose the aperture and shutter speed (or not) focus herself (or not) and it produces really good images, sharp to the corner every time. She never needs to go in the menus, its all there on the body, obvious and easy to get at - There must be thousands of people like this - she knows plenty about photography and NOTHING about photo forums.

    When this camera arrived on my doorstep in December I thought DOH! why wouldn't I use an OMD with the 12-35. The reason is that this takes better pictures and is more fun to use - and the proof of this is that I have both of these cameras sitting on the sideboard, and I tend to grab one of them when I'm out walking the dog - it's almost always the Leica.

    The slowness of the lens is a symptom of it's raison d'Ítre - it's a really really good lens - like that 28-90, and it only manages to be that good, and that small, by being that slow!

    Sorry to be grumpy - but insulting people who decide to buy something you don't want is (I think) pretty poor form.

    off
    All the best
    Only used one for a shot test in Leica Store Vienna today and I fully back your statements now Jono!

    What a relief after being forced to use cameras like OMD or even Fuji X Pro 1, which are both excellent cameras and value for their money, but do not give me the real kick to use them all the time.

    The Leica X Vario gave me that kick instantly when I touched it first time and especially with that EVF, which is not even state of the art anymore, I could operate it even more intuitively and the image quality of the EVF is still superior to lot of other EVFs with even higher resolution I know from Fuji, Sony etc.

    This is a really great "all in one for everyday" camera.

  41. #391
    Senior Member edwardkaraa's Avatar
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    Re: New Mini M?

    I find that forum mass hysteria seems to be a pre-requisite with every new Leica product launch.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2
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  42. #392
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Do you know Robert - I think this is a patronising attitude, and it's also really not very likely.

    It's not a point and shoot - it's encouraging you to use manual controls - it also has very good image quality - as good as the primes in most cameras.
    . . . . but that's not the point.

    I've seen hundreds of posts now from people saying/implying that people who don't read photo forums know nothing about photography - this is clearly rubbish.

    Saying that only people who know nothing about photography would buy this camera is also rubbish.

    My wife has had many cameras inflicted on her over the years, but the only one she has really liked is a Pentax K1000 which she was given by her father for a birthday present - in about 1995 she dropped it and broke the lens mount. Since then I've tried this and that, and she just hasn't liked them.

    This camera she does like - she can choose the aperture and shutter speed (or not) focus herself (or not) and it produces really good images, sharp to the corner every time. She never needs to go in the menus, its all there on the body, obvious and easy to get at - There must be thousands of people like this - she knows plenty about photography and NOTHING about photo forums.

    When this camera arrived on my doorstep in December I thought DOH! why wouldn't I use an OMD with the 12-35. The reason is that this takes better pictures and is more fun to use - and the proof of this is that I have both of these cameras sitting on the sideboard, and I tend to grab one of them when I'm out walking the dog - it's almost always the Leica.

    The slowness of the lens is a symptom of it's raison d'Ítre - it's a really really good lens - like that 28-90, and it only manages to be that good, and that small, by being that slow!

    Sorry to be grumpy - but insulting people who decide to buy something you don't want is (I think) pretty poor form.

    off
    All the best
    Sorry to say that you are losing it, Jono.

    Robert sells Leica cameras/lenses.

    I don't know what you are trying to do?

  43. #393
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Sorry to say that you are losing it, Jono.

    Robert sells Leica cameras/lenses.

    I don't know what you are trying to do?
    I know exactly who Robert is - which is why I made my point - I like and respect him, and I think he does a grand job here.

    I think I haven't made my point clear - forget the camera - it's irrelevant, there are two things people are doing/saying which really get up my nose, I think it's rude and offensive and only reflects back on themselves - they are:

    1. Saying/Implying that someone knows nothing about photography if they don't want a camera one doesn't personally like/approve of.
    2. Saying/Implying that someone who doesn't read photo forums knows nothing about photography

    I apologise to Robert for giving it to him in the neck over it, it is just because I do respect him so much and I was surprised.

    . . . and yes, I am losing my patience a little, it's being said over and over and over again. . .. .

    As I say - forget this camera it isn't the point.

    bleah!

    Just this guy you know
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  44. #394
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    Re: New Mini M?

    The ergonomics (feel in your hand ,use of menus ,ease of use ) are clearly difficult to evaluate from a spec sheet. It looks like the new Vario has the Leica feel and ease of use and this is important .

    When the S2 came out I knew it was a leica just by the feel . Try it close your eyes and fire off a few frames . It had the smoothness and feel in my hands to tell me its a Leica . Most long time M users would say that nothing quite fells the same as a M and each new generation is critically evaluated on even small changes to the sound of the shutter .

    The new Sony Rx1 has a great feel ..its got the weight and solid feel of a durable camera ..well made and the quality materials are obvious . The Fuji s less so and the ease of operation ,menus ,viewfinders etc have required constant firmware updates . Even if the Fuji is competitive on specifications .

    Nevertheless...the decision to use a slow zoom is questionable even with the wonderful wrapping provided by the Vario .....you just can t shoot much available light work with a zoom this slow .

  45. #395
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Jono, my post was not meant as an insult to anyone. It's just my analysis of the market for this camera. I made no comment about the operability or image quality or feel or handling or anything else. I'm quite sure it's a fine camera!

    But truly, anyone who puts in a modest amount of effort will find that it is significantly more expensive than other products with better specs; not just 20 or 50%, but nearly three times more expensive. Perhaps my "know nothing about photography" was a bit strong; maybe "don't take time to investigate the market before making their purchase" would be more accurate. Of course, there are always exceptions; there will be people who *do* the reasearch and choose the X Vario, and more power to them. As stated, these are the exceptions that prove the rule.

    In any event, my comment stands. This is an upper-market camera, targeted at those that value brand. If it isn't this, then what is it?

    Maybe this will be a success for Leica. Since none of us know how Leica has defined 'success' we probably won't really know.
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  46. #396
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    Re: New Mini M?

    It is all a matter of semantics. One post above monza's original post said the same and that poster is as good a supporter that Leica could ever count on, AFAIK.

    None of the posters who said nice things about the camera said, "I will buy it for full retail price". In fact they all said, "this is not the camera for me".

  47. #397
    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    In any event, my comment stands. This is an upper-market camera, targeted at those that value brand. If it isn't this, then what is it?
    Some people value enjoying using a camera more than they value spec sheets. The best camera is the one you have with you, and if you enjoy using it it's more likely you'll have it with you.
    Doug Herr http://www.wildlightphoto.com
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  48. #398
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    Re: New Mini M?

    True, but this doesn't really have much to do with the target market for the product.

  49. #399
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    Some people value enjoying using a camera more than they value spec sheets. The best camera is the one you have with you, and if you enjoy using it it's more likely you'll have it with you.
    Exactly the point!

    Also one has to admit that there is at least a certain level of technology and specs needed before that happens and this threshold is different for everybody and maybe also differs with age one reached.

    At least for me this magical thing happened today - really enjoying the X Vario and being fully satisfied with it and the images it produces. Once this happens it clicks and you know you are there!

  50. #400
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    In any event, my comment stands. This is an upper-market camera, targeted at those that value brand. If it isn't this, then what is it?
    HI Robert
    I didn't criticise that part of your statement!

    It was the ludicrous concept of designing a camera which screams to be used manually . . . .. and then marketing it to people who know nothing about photography!

    But I have to say that much usage has rather modified my view of the value of specs - sure, as Roger says - if you want to shoot low light then a slow zoom isn't it (although 12,500 ISO and a built in flash helps). But what if you don't want to shoot low light?

    Anyway - enough of that one - I apologise for picking on you!

    __________________________________________________ __

    Everything has compromises:

    Lots of us are willing to use a lovely vintage lens even though it's subject to lots of flare - because it has virtues which we value.

    This lens has the virtue of being very very good quality - corner to corner at all apertures (such as they are) and focal lengths - Sean Reid's remark that you can have two of three things in a zoom:
    1. small size
    2. excellent quality edge to edge
    3. wide aperture
    is very pertinent - in this case Leica have chosen 1&2 - many manufacturers chose 1&3 (and most users don't notice).

    Comparisons between the excellent Panasonic 12-35 and this Leica lens are pertinent - we all know how good the Panasonic is - but I don't think it's as good as the Leica - and it's a bit bigger, even though it's designed for a smaller sensor - and it extends much more than the Leica Lens.

    Worth mentioning that in the UK at least, an OMD+12-35 is getting close to the price of the Leica as well. Of course - the OMD combo has lots of other things going for it (I won't go through them) . . . . . but if you don't need/want these other things?

    Choose your poison (at least we all agree that zooms are poison )

    If you said that Leica have designed this camera for people who are not photo-geeks then I'd quite agree with you . . . (I've even said it). But it's not the same thing.

    All the best

    Just this guy you know

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