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Thread: New Mini M?

  1. #401
    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    None of the posters who said nice things about the camera said, "I will buy it for full retail price". In fact they all said, "this is not the camera for me".
    This is not the camera for me. There, I typed it. At the same time I believe there are people whose values preferences and whatever else are not identical to mine; I understand that their values and preferences are as valid as my own and I believe it's presumptuous to assume that those who would buy this camera would do so for reasons I would understand (whether I agree or not) such as the Red Dot.
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  2. #402
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    Some people value enjoying using a camera more than they value spec sheets. The best camera is the one you have with you, and if you enjoy using it it's more likely you'll have it with you.
    Exactly Doug - and if it also produces excellent images . . . . .

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    This is not the camera for me. There, I typed it. At the same time I believe there are people whose values preferences and whatever else are not identical to mine; I understand that their values and preferences are as valid as my own and I believe it's presumptuous to assume that those who would buy this camera would do so for reasons I would understand (whether I agree or not) such as the Red Dot.
    That is presumptuous all the same.

  4. #404
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Jono, not meaning to be difficult...just could have chosen a better way to make my statement. The target market probably doesn't really care enough to investigate manual operation. They care more about the magical "Leica" cachet. Sure, this doesn't mean they "know nothing about photography" but something tells me this will be the case for the majority; certainly most will not be photo-geeks, as you say.

    It's a Kim Kardashian camera, for shoppers in Leica stores and boutiques, and Rodeo Drive. Some may not like this flippant pop-culture analysis, but seriously, what else can it be?

    I asked the owner of one of the largest Leica dealers in the US what his opinion is on the camera: "What a sad day for Leica R&D." They've had ZERO interest in the camera. Although there will be some overlap of circles with existing Leica owners, this overlap will be small. I don't expect traditional dealers to sell many.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    It's a Kim Kardashian camera,
    That would make it a camera for those who fund and support photography and photographers!

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    Re: New Mini M?

    To say it bluntly, if you think this camera is for you, go and buy one. If you think it's not for you, shut the f*#% up and move on. This is the principle I have always followed on the forums. Bashing a product, or the company producing it, because it doesn't suit my personal criteria, would be really pointless. Not directed at anyone in particular, more like a note to myself.
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    That would make it a camera for those who fund and support photography and photographers!

    Kim Kardashian's 'Million Dollar Baby': Star 'Splashing The Cash On Luxury Birth' - Celebrity Gossip, News & Photos, Movie Reviews, Competitions - Entertainmentwise

    $1000/day photographer hired!
    Oh, I forgot to add that is a positive reference you have made, Robert (in case some did not get that)!

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    Re: New Mini M?

    So it`s intended "not for photo geeks", a "Kim Kardashian camera" etc. Really? Isn`t it exactly these shoppers who want an all auto camera? Yet the X Vario`s manual controls, UI and reduction to the essentials are exactly designed for enthusiasts/photo geeks, as are the ones of the X1 and X2. So partly it`s designed for enthusiasts, and spec wise for non enthusiasts? This does not make a lot of sense, does it? As neither of these two groups will be fully satisfied with this very premium priced Leica. Leica went half way with this one. It could have appealed to enthusiasts with an integrated EVF and at least a lens with a more exciting zoom range (24-70e).

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Okay folks it is what it is buy it, don't buy it . Don't insult the folks that want to buy it or not buy it. It really is pointless to a major extent. Leica fans it wont hurt them they will still be in business another 100 years. Non Leica fans why would you care. I already threatened 100 posts back to close this thread. Drop the insults aimed at others. Drop the innuendoes from non Leica fans that Leica buyers are morons. We get it already. Enough we ALL have better things to do. Da lets see taking some nice images would be a change.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    Some people value enjoying using a camera more than they value spec sheets.
    Amen. It is not the only important characteristic of a camera, but it is the most important one. Another is the rendering style of the lens/sensor combination. Neither shows up on spec sheets. I have not used this new camera, but it may be strong on both counts. Looking forward to seeing some photos.
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  11. #411
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Wow, people take this stuff way too seriously.

    It's not really pointless to discuss a target market. This isn't an indictment of the camera, or the buyers, it's simply an analysis of the target market.

    No one really knows what Leica is trying to do with this camera, other than themselves. Maybe they completely missed the mark and the price is far too high and it will not be a success to Leica; that will be self-evident if we see a price drop or it's simply discontinued. Maybe it will be wildly successful to whatever measure Leica has defined; they might sell all they can build. None of us know these things.

    If the price were lower, it would be an entirely different thread and a different market niche and we'd be focused on other things. But this shouldn't make a simple market analysis a verboten discussion...
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    Subscriber Member Chuck Jones's Avatar
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Wow, people take this stuff way too seriously.

    It's not really pointless to discuss a target market. This isn't an indictment of the camera, or the buyers, it's simply an analysis of the target market.

    No one really knows what Leica is trying to do with this camera, other than themselves. Maybe they completely missed the mark and the price is far too high and it will not be a success to Leica; that will be self-evident if we see a price drop or it's simply discontinued. Maybe it will be wildly successful to whatever measure Leica has defined; they might sell all they can build. None of us know these things.

    If the price were lower, it would be an entirely different thread and a different market niche and we'd be focused on other things. But this shouldn't make a simple market analysis a verboten discussion...
    I don't know Roger, save for his posts here on the forum. But I do know Leica's, and many of the same people at Leica that Roger knows and deals with often. I've heard this market strategy discussion from them myself. Leica's products have changed slowly over the years, too slow for the present owners and investors. They are trying to find market niches in an already over saturated retail camera marketplace. The luxury upper end cache market is just one of them.

    Get used to it folks. My bet is there are bound to be more products with equally strange origins for even stranger marketing purposes still to come. Leica is no longer run by engineers or designers, it is run by bean counters spending money on marketing wonks to tell them where the markets are for high priced "luxury" specialty niche products to expand the line.

    These new products will not be for most of us. They already own us, as the very fact this hotly debated thread exists in the first place clearly shows. They have our attention, and products for us to focus on with the M line and S line. Just as Canon and Nikon have several things in their product catalogs very few of us would ever need, Leica is trying to build a market with a few products for the glamour set. Good luck to them.
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  13. #413
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    They already own us, as the very fact this hotly debated thread exists in the first place clearly shows. They have our attention, and products for us to focus on with the M line and S line.
    Good post!

  14. #414
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    Re: New Mini M?

    We could all discuss this ad nauseum but I must say I am beginning to be won over by this camera.

    Firstly, I like the zoom range. Secondly, I suspect it will give as good results as, say, a Leica DRF with prime lenses of equivalent focal lengths with the exception of the exotic types, e.g. crons and summiluxes.

    What could be better? Compact package, no issue with lens changes and dust, no issues with "Hmmm what lens do I need for my holiday to wherever" - just a straightforward tool with excellent optical quality and I suspect equally excellent results.

    It is also worth pointing out that in fixed lens cameras the size of sensor is moot beyond APS-C. I say that as a RX-1 owner. To all practical intents and purposes the fact that my RX-1 is a full sized sensor is largely meaningless.

    As a tool this camera may not be sold as a professional instrument but I bet it could easily produce professional results even if you cannot rely on it alone for weddings, or use it for sports events.

    One thing I am intrigued about is whether this camera will appear as, or is indeed a re-badged Panasonic. There are rumours abounding about a possible new Panasonic fixed lens camera.

    Anyway, just my two cents having thought more about it.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Wow, people take this stuff way too seriously.

    It's not really pointless to discuss a target market. This isn't an indictment of the camera, or the buyers,
    If course it is Robert - it's an indictment of both

    There is a rather wonderful video of Jeff Ascough showing Don McCullin how to use a Canon 5D MkIII - it's the first time he has ever shot digital
    Don McCulin with a Canon
    If you haven't watched it, then you really should.

    What's the point of this?

    What I'm trying to get at, is that there are plenty of splendid photographers (at every level) who have simply not kept up with the technology. They may have kept up with their photography (as Don McCullin certainly has).

    The X Vario really is a camera which you can just pick up and use - even if you hadn't used a digital camera before - to say that the specs don't match something like the Fuji is, of course, true - but specs a good photograph do not make. Good Photographers make Good Photographs, and there are plenty of people around who are Good Photographers (even if they aren't as good as Don McCulin) - but who really aren't interested in the Tech. But they're very unlikely to hang out here

    That's who I think this camera is directed at - of course, it's a Leica, so they need to have some money - but then they'd need some money for the Fuji too.

    Just this guy you know
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  16. #416
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post

    What I'm trying to get at, is that there are plenty of splendid photographers (at every level) who have simply not kept up with the technology. They may have kept up with their photography (as Don McCullin certainly has).
    I agree, it would be wrong to think McCullin or even a Salgado (who does do digital) have failed to 'keep up with the technology'. They are photographers first and foremost and work in the medium which best befits their 'art'. Why change a winning formula just for the sake of the technology?

    I was blown away by the Salgado exhibition at the Natural History museum - a complete natural history of our planet, entirely in black and white! And shot on a variety of cameras, although the point is that the technology is actually irrelevant, it is the results which are compelling.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    If course it is Robert - it's an indictment of both

    There is a rather wonderful video of Jeff Ascough showing Don McCullin how to use a Canon 5D MkIII - it's the first time he has ever shot digital
    Don McCulin with a Canon
    If you haven't watched it, then you really should.

    What's the point of this?

    What I'm trying to get at, is that there are plenty of splendid photographers (at every level) who have simply not kept up with the technology. They may have kept up with their photography (as Don McCullin certainly has).

    The X Vario really is a camera which you can just pick up and use - even if you hadn't used a digital camera before - to say that the specs don't match something like the Fuji is, of course, true - but specs a good photograph do not make. Good Photographers make Good Photographs, and there are plenty of people around who are Good Photographers (even if they aren't as good as Don McCulin) - but who really aren't interested in the Tech. But they're very unlikely to hang out here

    That's who I think this camera is directed at - of course, it's a Leica, so they need to have some money - but then they'd need some money for the Fuji too.
    Boy, I don't know, Jono. I can usually find a silver lining in many Leica products, like the X2, but this X-Vario just seems too far out in too many categories. It has a slow zoom, the usual Sony 16mp sensor, it is still kind of large for what it is, and it is expensive. While many may not keep up with digital technology, I'd think that most photographers spending this kind of money would have a handle on the importance of things like the apertures available.

    I'm trying hard to understand who this camera is aimed at, outside of just being a bit of a wealthy ornament...not that I have a problem with that. I guess if you're a landscape and/or travel shooter in good light who wants something sort of small and very well built, this camera could make sense, but, as has been mentioned, there are so many other more flexible choices out there at such a lower cost, the wealth aspect of this keeps creeping in.

    Man, if the zoom on the X-Vario collapsed into the body somehow, I could really see a market for it, despite the price.
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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    Boy, I don't know, Jono. I can usually find a silver lining in many Leica products, like the X2, but this X-Vario just seems too far out in too many categories. It has a slow zoom, the usual Sony 16mp sensor, it is still kind of large for what it is, and it is expensive. While many may not keep up with digital technology, I'd think that most photographers spending this kind of money would have a handle on the importance of things like the apertures available.

    I'm trying hard to understand who this camera is aimed at, outside of just being a bit of a wealthy ornament...not that I have a problem with that. I guess if you're a landscape and/or travel shooter in good light who wants something sort of small and very well built, this camera could make sense, but, as has been mentioned, there are so many other more flexible choices out there at such a lower cost, the wealth aspect of this keeps creeping in.

    Man, if the zoom on the X-Vario collapsed into the body somehow, I could really see a market for it, despite the price.
    Did you actually try one yourself?

    I would consider me as a very advanced photographer knowing and owning (having owned) most of the latest and greatest gear. Anyway I am still amazed by this "ugly" and "not state of the art" Leica X Vario, with a far too slow lens etc., etc.

    I see that you are still just behind latest and greatest technology, which you do hope makes photography better. But this will not happen, trust me! But a camera which you like to grap ad use will get you there much closer.

    Just my 5c ...

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    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: New Mini M?

    ...and one more point.

    Has there been much discussion about the distance scale? That seems like a very useful addition. Proper manual focussing. I don't even have that on my RX-1.

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  20. #420
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Did you actually try one yourself?

    I would consider me as a very advanced photographer knowing and owning (having owned) most of the latest and greatest gear. Anyway I am still amazed by this "ugly" and "not state of the art" Leica X Vario, with a far too slow lens etc., etc.

    I see that you are still just behind latest and greatest technology, which you do hope makes photography better. But this will not happen, trust me! But a camera which you like to grap ad use will get you there much closer.

    Just my 5c ...

    Peter
    I'm not sure what your point is, so I don't know how to respond.

  21. #421
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    ...and one more point.

    Has there been much discussion about the distance scale? That seems like a very useful addition. Proper manual focussing. I don't even have that on my RX-1.

    LouisB
    Yeah, that's a nice addition, and the barrel of the lens looks really solid, too. Granted, there are no depth of field scales, so it isn't really much more useful than the digital distance scale on your RX1, although it does have a couple more distance markings.

  22. #422
    Senior Member JohnW's Avatar
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    Re: New Mini M?

    This camera design is growing on me. I shoot street, generally at f8 or higher, as light and ISO performance allow. So no problem there. Good manual focus and a distance scale are not both offered by many mirrorless cameras, so that's also a plus. And to be able to zoom in sometimes wouldn't be bad either.

    I would not spend $3K and would likely opt for an X-E1 instead, but the Vario design is not as off-the-wall as I first thought.

    John

  23. #423
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    The X Vario really is a camera which you can just pick up and use - even if you hadn't used a digital camera before - to say that the specs don't match something like the Fuji is, of course, true - but specs a good photograph do not make.
    There are lots of cameras that can just be picked up and used that don't cost $3.4K.

    This is a camera with middling specs at a super premium price. If Fuji or Sony or Nikon or anyone else were to produce this exact camera for this exact price, what would everyone be saying?

    Clearly, Leica is trying to capitalize on their brand name cachet, and that's perfectly fine. That's not an indictment in any way, shape, or form, of the camera, or of the target market. It remains to be seen if this attempt will be successful, but only Leica can define what that is.

    Of course, the specs don't have anything to do with whether the camera is capable of making a good image in the hands of a non-tech (or tech) photographer.


    That's who I think this camera is directed at - of course, it's a Leica, so they need to have some money - but then they'd need some money for the Fuji too.

    Well, they'd need 1/3 of some money for the Fuji, to be fair.
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    I'm not sure what your point is, so I don't know how to respond.
    Well it's actually easy - the "wealthy ornament" stuff .... OK?

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    There are lots of cameras that can just be picked up and used that don't cost $3.4K.

    This is a camera with middling specs at a super premium price. If Fuji or Sony or Nikon or anyone else were to produce this exact camera for this exact price, what would everyone be saying?

    Clearly, Leica is trying to capitalize on their brand name cachet, and that's perfectly fine. That's not an indictment in any way, shape, or form, of the camera, or of the target market. It remains to be seen if this attempt will be successful, but only Leica can define what that is.

    Of course, the specs don't have anything to do with whether the camera is capable of making a good image in the hands of a non-tech (or tech) photographer.

    Well, they'd need 1/3 of some money for the Fuji, to be fair.
    I would say if you test this camera and it does not click for you, just forget it, do no longer waste time, thoughts and money and use what suits you better and clicks on you .....

  26. #426
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    Re: New Mini M?

    "I'm trying hard to understand who this camera is aimed at, outside of just being a bit of a wealthy ornament...not that I have a problem with that."

    This reminds me of an old Seinfeld episode. A woman thought he was gay, and every time he denied it, he added, "Not that there's anything wrong with it."

  27. #427
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Well it's actually easy - the "wealthy ornament" stuff .... OK?
    Hey, I said I don't have a problem with that, and I'm just trying to talk through the potential buyers of this camera, outside of that description. I just can't imagine this camera spurring much interest if it was identical, but with another logo on it, which, again, doesn't necessarily bother me. I'm not a Leica hater, and the history of the brand is important. I'm just trying to work out the appeal of this camera.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    "I'm trying hard to understand who this camera is aimed at, outside of just being a bit of a wealthy ornament...not that I have a problem with that."

    This reminds me of an old Seinfeld episode. A woman thought he was gay, and every time he denied it, he added, "Not that there's anything wrong with it."
    But I really DON'T have a problem with that. I'm certainly have my share of those items. This is an enthusiast camera forum, though, so I'm trying to work out what else it could be, because that is what it appears to be on the surface.

  29. #429
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    ... I can usually find a silver lining in many Leica products, like the X2, but ...
    Think of it as an X2, but with a Leica-quality zoom, for an extra $800. Seems like reasonable value.
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna View Post
    Think of it as an X2, but with a Leica-quality zoom, for an extra $800. Seems like reasonable value.
    I'll try, but I think I'd spend more on a high quality fixed prime than a very slow fixed zoom. If this camera had a fast-ish zoom, or a collapsible zoom, or a 35mm sensor, the game would change completely, but it is currently an odd combination of things for the price, to me.

  31. #431
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Doug the appeal is not in your shoes, we have to remember this always when it comes to products. Basically we need to think outside of ourselves and look at things in a different way. Everyone says that's fine the wealthiest buy it but most people still don't buy into that believe you may say it. ( not pointing at you) But people don't actually think of being the rich guy buying it, it's meaningless cash for many . You and I know we can get better value for our 3k but our 3k to us is maybe 300 to a very wealthy person. We need to think on a different scale and let's be honest many here are on the budget value added scale here. Adam Levin from Marron 5 band pays 600 dollars for a tee shirt that looks like a item I can buy in Target for 19.99 and maybe less for instance. To him its a 19.99 purchase to us 3 k is a really good Nikon D800 or a Leica 28cron or something of bigger desire. The problem is we don't think in those types of wealthy scales.this is bubble gum money to some folks. This for many us not about value at all but just another sexy toy to show to there friends to say there wealthy. Glam Glam my friend something most of us are not into. Hell 3k to me means paying some needed bills. But I like great products but also like many here we are also looking at value for what we buy. This has zero value buying for some. This is not easy to accept but its just a hard cold way of life for some. Leica products in general are much harder to put a value added sticker on it in some ways. Lets get real here buying a Nocti for 10k is insane money. I see zero value in it knowing a 50 pre lux looks better but people buy that Nocti all day long . Value has nothing to do with it for them and that's what keeps the industry growing.

    If not for hobbyist MF might have folded years ago for instance. We need to remember this keeps Leicas doors open as well. Nothing wrong with a company supporting its bigger efforts with bread and butter products. Leica earned this rep and they are taking advantage of it. I know if I was CEO I would do the same thing.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    Hey, I said I don't have a problem with that, and I'm just trying to talk through the potential buyers of this camera, outside of that description. I just can't imagine this camera spurring much interest if it was identical, but with another logo on it, which, again, doesn't necessarily bother me. I'm not a Leica hater, and the history of the brand is important. I'm just trying to work out the appeal of this camera.
    See, you should not need to work out any appeal of this camera if you handle it for some time. If this does not work for you, I would suggest just to forget about it.

    I am ambivalent WRT Leica and had lot of good experiences with that brand but also the other way round - unfortunately. Initially I thought this camera is not even worth to pay any attention to. But as it happened and I went by the Leica store Vienna today, I just thought to give it a look in order to understand the mostly critical if not negative press.

    But the outcome is that I am so impressed now, that I just try to forget all "not so good" specs and am looking to get one. It is simply so intuitive and basic to operate and gives IQ at least at the higher end of the whole pack, that this can easily become my next every day general purpose camera or the only one I might take with me for business trips or vacation, if I am not going to photograph special themes like for example wildlife etc.

    Once you hold it in your hands you (at least I) just want to use it and this is the most important thing in my opinion. A camera which delivers best on all specs, but which you do not like so much to take with you and shoot is just not as good finally. Call this crazy or however you like, but for me (and I guess also for some others) this is just the case. And then it is up to my experience to master also the most demanding situations with it.

    Try it and you either understand that or this camera is simply nothing for you, which is by no means anything personal, you just will save probably lot of money. But is it clicks, you should be highly rewarded with satisfaction taking it out for demanding and fun photography.
    Life is an ever changing journey
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    "I'm trying hard to understand who this camera is aimed at, outside of just being a bit of a wealthy ornament...not that I have a problem with that."

    This reminds me of an old Seinfeld episode. A woman thought he was gay, and every time he denied it, he added, "Not that there's anything wrong with it."
    I like that episode as well. Your wit and its judicious use is very much appreciated.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Doug the appeal is not in your shoes, we have to remember this always when it comes to products. Basically we need to think outside of ourselves and look at things in a different way. Everyone says that's fine the wealthiest buy it but most people still don't buy into that believe you may say it. ( not pointing at you) But people don't actually think of being the rich guy buying it, it's meaningless cash for many . You and I know we can get better value for our 3k but our 3k to us is maybe 300 to a very wealthy person. We need to think on a different scale and let's be honest many here are on the budget value added scale here. Adam Levin from Marron 5 band pays 600 dollars for a tee shirt that looks like a item I can buy in Target for 19.99 and maybe less for instance. To him its a 19.99 purchase to us 3 k is a really good Nikon D800 or a Leica 28cron or something of bigger desire. The problem is we don't think in those types of wealthy scales.this is bubble gum money to some folks.
    Guy, your observation is right, but only partially. Even if one does not belong to the crowd who can say that 3k they do not care (which I am not part of) there is the point when one thinks this camera can replace a whole series of equipment (maybe OMD and some lenses or Fuji X and some lenses) and make life simpler (much simpler) while same time providing great (if not superior) IQ and good fun of holding and operating such a camera. I for myself belong to this group.

    Not finally decided yet and will give it some more time of reviewing and maybe testing, but if I go that road then either my Oly or Fuji will have to go in order to fund this beast. But from what I have seen so far, this is a very likely option for me.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna View Post
    Think of it as an X2, but with a Leica-quality zoom, for an extra $800. Seems like reasonable value.
    This is exactly how I see it. The X2 intrigued me, but the single focal length left me a little wanting. Now that there's a zoom with such a useful range...

    The zoom might be slow, but it's got a decent ISO range - and a built-in flash. Still, a shame there's no IS. That would've gone a long way too.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Doug the appeal is not in your shoes, we have to remember this always when it comes to products. Basically we need to think outside of ourselves and look at things in a different way. Everyone says that's fine the wealthiest buy it but most people still don't buy into that believe you may say it. ( not pointing at you) But people don't actually think of being the rich guy buying it, it's meaningless cash for many . You and I know we can get better value for our 3k but our 3k to us is maybe 300 to a very wealthy person. We need to think on a different scale and let's be honest many here are on the budget value added scale here. Adam Levin from Marron 5 band pays 600 dollars for a tee shirt that looks like a item I can buy in Target for 19.99 and maybe less for instance. To him its a 19.99 purchase to us 3 k is a really good Nikon D800 or a Leica 28cron or something of bigger desire. The problem is we don't think in those types of wealthy scales.this is bubble gum money to some folks. This for many us not about value at all but just another sexy toy to show to there friends to say there wealthy. Glam Glam my friend something most of us are not into. Hell 3k to me means paying some needed bills. But I like great products but also like many here we are also looking at value for what we buy. This has zero value buying for some. This is not easy to accept but its just a hard cold way of life for some. Leica products in general are much harder to put a value added sticker on it in some ways. Lets get real here buying a Nocti for 10k is insane money. I see zero value in it knowing a 50 pre lux looks better but people buy that Nocti all day long . Value has nothing to do with it for them and that's what keeps the industry growing.

    If not for hobbyist MF might have folded years ago for instance. We need to remember this keeps Leicas doors open as well. Nothing wrong with a company supporting its bigger efforts with bread and butter products. Leica earned this rep and they are taking advantage of it. I know if I was CEO I would do the same thing.
    I absolutely get that, and that is largely my point. Why would people get angry for me to put this camera in that same category? I'm no saint. I blow money on all kinds of things from time to time.

    I'm just trying to open the conversation up from a camera enthusiast's point of view.

    Either way, since this isn't the X-Vario image forum, I think conversations like these are kind of the point of these threads, right?

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Guy, your observation is right, but only partially. Even if one does not belong to the crowd who can say that 3k they do not care (which I am not part of) there is the point when one thinks this camera can replace a whole series of equipment (maybe OMD and some lenses or Fuji X and some lenses) and make life simpler (much simpler) while same time providing great (if not superior) IQ and good fun of holding and operating such a camera. I for myself belong to this group.

    Not finally decided yet and will give it some more time of reviewing and maybe testing, but if I go that road then either my Oly or Fuji will have to go in order to fund this beast. But from what I have seen so far, this is a very likely option for me.
    This is what I'm interested in. I think that is a good reason to go with the X-Vario. I can't imagine that a large percentage of shooters would go this route, primarily because of the speed of the zoom, but I understand your decision.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    I tend to agree Peter and a point I did not bring up. I'm a Pro so I have to have gear to stay in business. But more importantly many hobbyists may have a load of gear and something happens they lose interest or tire of lugging this crap around all day long and we see this daily folks giving up there full DSLRs and going mirrorless, 4/3 rds and smaller. There bored or whatever and maybe find a new hobby . I see it all the time and not many hobbyist stick with a hobby for 40 years either they find something more fun, challenging or whatever and they downgrade there whole systems. Just look at our buy and sell its a tell tale sign of what's going on . For some jumping on this Leica maybe all they want to deal with at this point. I hate to see it but its reality. Heck I have the Fuji X-E1 myself and if it was just my hobby it maybe the only thing I have or a Leica M or X for that matter. My hobby is Golf and I have a bag full of top latest generation clubs and I'm pretty damn good at it now. To me its fun when its not fun anymore ill dump the bag and move on to something else. Photography hobby's are no diffrent.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    ...and one more point.

    Has there been much discussion about the distance scale? That seems like a very useful addition. Proper manual focussing. I don't even have that on my RX-1.
    Indeed. That's one of the important details Leica did right. It's particularly useful with video capture as no one I know who does video seriously would ever use auto-focus. Explicit focus control is one of the essential factors in making good video.

    Godfrey

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I know exactly who Robert is - which is why I made my point - I like and respect him, and I think he does a grand job here.

    I think I haven't made my point clear - forget the camera - it's irrelevant, there are two things people are doing/saying which really get up my nose, I think it's rude and offensive and only reflects back on themselves - they are:

    1. Saying/Implying that someone knows nothing about photography if they don't want a camera one doesn't personally like/approve of.
    2. Saying/Implying that someone who doesn't read photo forums knows nothing about photography

    I apologise to Robert for giving it to him in the neck over it, it is just because I do respect him so much and I was surprised.

    . . . and yes, I am losing my patience a little, it's being said over and over and over again. . .. .

    As I say - forget this camera it isn't the point.

    bleah!
    Myopic statements often overlook the need for marketing versatility in the real world, rather than the more narrow one of web photo forums ... where we all can get a bit jaded.

    Reminds me of my ex-wife who got all caught up in our raging financial success even though both of us came from modest backgrounds. Once when driving on the xway ditch to some toni social event, she wondered who lived up there "Once upon a time, we did." I answered ... just like some of us came from more modest, less grand photo backgrounds ... once upon a time.

    Plenty of people up there outside of the "super-highway of photo forums" know a bit about photography, love to take photos, and document their comings and goings. Those more into it may well want to have more analog control of their camera, and may be willing to pay for it in a less toss-away, "here today, gone today" form.

    Here's something to set this forum on fire ... from what images I've seen of everyday sorts of documentary images that most people engage in most of the time, this little camera produces better color than the M240 ... so far ... with less effort, nor needing a computer science degree from MIT to get decent skin tones

    IMHO.



    -Marc
    Last edited by fotografz; 13th June 2013 at 18:53.
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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    this little camera produces better color that the M240

    Like most cameras do...


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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    ... this little camera produces better color that the M240 ... so far ... with less effort, nor needing a computer science degree from MIT to get decent skin tones ...
    LOL! That means I'd have to have an M(240) to compare it with first. Far as I can tell, the people photos I've seen out of the M are just fine, but I tend to photograph people in B&W most of the time anyway.

    Color is a modernist fad...

    G


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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Indeed. That's one of the important details Leica did right. It's particularly useful with video capture as no one I know who does video seriously would ever use auto-focus. Explicit focus control is one of the essential factors in making good video.

    Godfrey
    In my experience, image stabilisation is the most essential factor in making good video unless you're willing to encumber yourself with a tripod.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    In my experience, image stabilisation is the most essential factor in making good video unless you're willing to encumber yourself with a tripod.
    Most of the videographers I know use SteadyCams and tripods, rails and dollies. None of them use image stabilization.

    G

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I tend to agree Peter and a point I did not bring up. I'm a Pro so I have to have gear to stay in business. But more importantly many hobbyists may have a load of gear and something happens they lose interest or tire of lugging this crap around all day long and we see this daily folks giving up there full DSLRs and going mirrorless, 4/3 rds and smaller. There bored or whatever and maybe find a new hobby . I see it all the time and not many hobbyist stick with a hobby for 40 years either they find something more fun, challenging or whatever and they downgrade there whole systems. Just look at our buy and sell its a tell tale sign of what's going on . For some jumping on this Leica maybe all they want to deal with at this point. I hate to see it but its reality. Heck I have the Fuji X-E1 myself and if it was just my hobby it maybe the only thing I have or a Leica M or X for that matter. My hobby is Golf and I have a bag full of top latest generation clubs and I'm pretty damn good at it now. To me its fun when its not fun anymore ill dump the bag and move on to something else. Photography hobby's are no diffrent.
    Guy, I think it is something slightly different than just creating a camera for the hobbiest market. I actually think digital technology is rapidly improving to the point where there is no need to lug a gorilla of a body around - just look at the work Vieri Botazzini has done using Sigma DPxM and Nex bodies - serious, professional fine art work (see other camera thread). When I was last in a certain professional camera shop in central London which sells both Leica and Panasonic cameras, the owner claimed a well known British photographer was enthusiastically using a GH-3 having bought two bodies and all the available lenses. I can understand how you would not rely on some consumer or prosumer cameras in critical situations - but what if you had a main and a spare? Both for the price of half a Nikon D4 or 1Dx?

    LouisB

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    Boy, I don't know, Jono. I can usually find a silver lining in many Leica products, like the X2, but this X-Vario just seems too far out in too many categories. It has a slow zoom, the usual Sony 16mp sensor, it is still kind of large for what it is
    Hi Douglas
    Maybe this picture kind of helps to understand why the lens is slow:



    It's the XV next to the Olympus OMD with the Panasonic 12-35 f2.8 - in both cases the lenses are at their largest extension.
    The XV lens is certainly slower, but the DOF difference is slightly made up with the larger sensor. Any low light problem is compensated by the very good high ISO.
    The IQ is certainly better with the XV, and the handling is much more 'camera' like.
    Of course the XV doesn't have Image Stabilisation or a built in EVF, or interchangeable lenses and the AF on the OMD is much faster - but if you plug in the EVF it's about the same height as the OMD. It makes a smaller package overall.
    I've found that going out for a walk with the dogs - or sitting on the car seat: times when I would always have taken the OMD, I've been picking up the XV.

    I think that if you simply want a camera - one which is fairly versatile, and has excellent image quality - with a zoom, then this is a reasonable option - in the UK an OMD + Panasonic lens is only about 15% less than the XV anyway.

    Without decent image quality it would be nothing . . . but the IQ is excellent.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Plenty of people up there outside of the "super-highway of photo forums" know a bit about photography, love to take photos, and document their comings and goings. Those more into it may well want to have more analog control of their camera, and may be willing to pay for it in a less toss-away, "here today, gone today" form.
    Hi Marc
    Nicely put - and what I've been trying to say.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Most of the videographers I know use SteadyCams and tripods, rails and dollies. None of them use image stabilization.

    G
    Sure, but this camera is hardly aimed at that crowd.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    Guy, I think it is something slightly different than just creating a camera for the hobbiest market. I actually think digital technology is rapidly improving to the point where there is no need to lug a gorilla of a body around - just look at the work Vieri Botazzini has done using Sigma DPxM and Nex bodies - serious, professional fine art work (see other camera thread). When I was last in a certain professional camera shop in central London which sells both Leica and Panasonic cameras, the owner claimed a well known British photographer was enthusiastically using a GH-3 having bought two bodies and all the available lenses. I can understand how you would not rely on some consumer or prosumer cameras in critical situations - but what if you had a main and a spare? Both for the price of half a Nikon D4 or 1Dx?

    LouisB

    I agree I see a lot of Pros going to smaller systems if they can get away with it in certain types of work. I wish I could do it, I tried with the M8 but I ran into some work that it just was to limiting but I agree these systems are really powerful. My Fuji is my backup and if could pull it off and use it sometimes for client work I would in a heart beat. My problem is I do a big variety of work in diffrent areas so its about being versatile with gear. If I had life my way I would go back to a M system.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: New Mini M?

    I think it's sad that they couldn't have squeezed just another 2/3 stop out of the lens.

    Let's face it, if it were f2.8 - f5.6 nobody would have batted an eyelash.

    f2.8 - f3.5 (1/2 stop)
    f5.6 - f6.5 (1/3 stop)

    f3.5 - f6.4 sounds so bad!

    Ah Well

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