New Mini M?

[Steen]

New Mini M with autofocus lenses ?

Interesting!

I'm betting on APS-C and interchangeable autofocus lenses. (...)

(...) It would be nice like Fuji to have a zoom and 3 primes in its own mount AF of course. (...)

Interchangeable autofocus lenses would indeed be an interesting step, whatever sensor size.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

I'm not nearly as experienced with Leica or cameras as many here, so maybe this will sound ignorant...

But my feeling is that Leica is realizing their main S and M lines have a limited markets, and cameras like the X2 are no where near serious enough for pros or even prosumer photographers...

Thus, they need new segments to go after, and currently Leica offers no legit options for prosumers and pros [including journalists, bloggers, etc] in the 3k to 5k range, which is a good size market.

Couple that with the fact that we are moving in the direction of smaller cameras with bigger sensors [look at response to what Sony is doing, and their push for FF... others will be following suit]. This makes me think anything BUT a FF on this "mini" makes it DOA.

On the other hand, if Leica can create an RX1 competitor that's simpler, with fewer features but better lens performance, better looks, and built in EVF for around 4kish, I think it opens up a bunch of new customers for Leica that were never going to wait in line to spend 1Ok to 12k on an M body + a Summicron or Summilux lens.

I'm not sure how typical I am... but I got in line for the new M and a Summilux 5O [11k + tax], then seeing what the RX1 was capable of for 28OO... it made me question the Leica and cancel my order. But then, I was just about to get the Sonya few days ago when I heard of this Leica announcement. So I'm waiting to see what Leica offers here....

If it's FF, with a built in EVF and fast fixed lens and performs well... even if the price is 1k more than the RX1, I would happily pay a premium.

But maybe I'm not that typical, so who knows!

[Also, even if I'm in love with what's released... if Leica takes a year before they ship like some of their other cameras, I still might have to get an RX1 in the meantime just to hold me over.]

 

[thrice]

Hi Anthony,

As an ex-Sony, current-Leica employee I can almost guarantee you won't see a spec-for-spec RX1 competitor. With the low manufacturing overheads that Sony has they barely break even on the RX1 whilst offering terrible margin to their dealers (particularly on that product).
Leica do have the X2 which is an APS-C sensor and a stop slower, it still sells well.

Likewise you won't see an M competitor from Sony.

My question would be, if you like the features of the RX1, what's holding you back? It has a very sharp lens with pleasing imaging characteristics, accessory EVF wouldn't push the price over 4k...
Not trying to sound arrogant or anything but I don't think Leica have any issues finding customers for M.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Hi Anthony,

As an ex-Sony, current-Leica employee I can almost guarantee you won't see a spec-for-spec RX1 competitor. With the low manufacturing overheads that Sony has they barely break even on the RX1 whilst offering terrible margin to their dealers (particularly on that product).
Leica do have the X2 which is an APS-C sensor and a stop slower, it still sells well.

Likewise you won't see an M competitor from Sony.

Thanks for the reply. I don't expect spec by spec competitor, but something FF, compact and with EVF would be my dream... I guess it's just wishful thinking.

In terms of pricing and profit, if the performance was there I think Leica could go as high as 5k on a FF compact with great fixed lens performance, but as you allude to, that still may not be enough to really be profitable.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

My question would be, if you like the features of the RX1, what's holding you back? It has a very sharp lens with pleasing imaging characteristics, accessory EVF wouldn't push the price over 4k...
Not trying to sound arrogant or anything but I don't think Leica have any issues finding customers for M.

I love the "leica look" and overall aesthetic, and have always wanted one...

In terms of the Sony, I feel it's probably the closest, not to mention cheaper, compact, etc. My main issue is that I hate the extra EVF, I think it's ugly as sin and adds awkward size to the camera [wish they just included EVF, even if it made the body slightly bigger like the NEX]....

But also, I would just rather have a Leica compact if it delivered similar performance, more "leica" character, and cost maybe 1 or 2k more. I'm willing to pay a premium for a Leica, but 1Ok or 12k for an M is a bit much... if I'm going to spend that much I'd almost rather just spend even more and go for the S line.

True, Leica doesn't need me. They are not even meeting demand as it stands. But if they want to become a bigger, more profitable, more aggressively growing company in the next few years, I do think they need a much more serious camera in the 3k to 5k range, whatever the specs.

I just hope it's not a disappointment and outdated immediately upon release, like the X2.

 

[thrice]

The X2 may not be enormous aperture but it is a good balance of size and performance. Much more pocketable (and cheaper) than an RX1 and much better battery-life and high ISO than a Merrill.

For 5K you are probably in used M territory 3+ years from now. If you need built-in EVF maybe wait for Sony to build one in a year or so, but I wouldn't expect M lenses to play nice on their sensor from what I've seen/heard.

The issue with manufacturing something very similar to a Japanese camera company is mostly a retained value and perceived exclusivity one. The market for DSLR's is entirely flooded and if you ask almost any camera store if they make any profit out of DSLR they will say no - hence discontinuation of the R line. I know a lot of customers hate to think the store or the manufacturer make a profit but it is entirely necessary for the industry to survive. Throwing their hat into a very full ring isn't going to help Leica nor the industry as a whole.

Obviously I can't comment on future products but I think now is a better time than ever to invest in the M system.

To be fair, an S with a 70 summarit is roughly 3 times the price of an M with a 50 lux. They are as different as a Concord and a Porsche. Both get you somewhere but in an entirely different manner.

 

[rayyan]

Too many cameras and too little....

That is what I say.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

The X2 may not be enormous aperture but it is a good balance of size and performance. Much more pocketable (and cheaper) than an RX1 and much better battery-life and high ISO than a Merrill.

For 5K you are probably in used M territory 3+ years from now. If you need built-in EVF maybe wait for Sony to build one in a year or so, but I wouldn't expect M lenses to play nice on their sensor from what I've seen/heard.

The issue with manufacturing something very similar to a Japanese camera company is mostly a retained value and perceived exclusivity one. The market for DSLR's is entirely flooded and if you ask almost any camera store if they make any profit out of DSLR they will say no - hence discontinuation of the R line. I know a lot of customers hate to think the store or the manufacturer make a profit but it is entirely necessary for the industry to survive. Throwing their hat into a very full ring isn't going to help Leica nor the industry as a whole.

Obviously I can't comment on future products but I think now is a better time than ever to invest in the M system.

To be fair, an S with a 70 summarit is roughly 3 times the price of an M with a 50 lux. They are as different as a Concord and a Porsche. Both get you somewhere but in an entirely different manner.

I agree, especially the last part... it's so easy [yet so unfair] to make apples to oranges comparisons, which is what many bloggers have done in comparing the RX1 to the M line. To be clear, I don't think the S and M are "similar" in pricing or in any other way really, just my personal preference that if I'm going to spend a "lot" of money, would rather go all the way and LOVE everything about the S... but anyway, very different cameras for different needs and styles. No point in comparing.

Getting back to the topic at hand, if it was a smaller M body with M mount, with FF, no RF, built in EVF and sold between 4k and 5k, that would be cool too.

Would still be pricy, especially when you factor in M lens cost, but a good option for those who want to shoot more traditionally with an M style camera that's smaller and saves a few bucks.

Can't speak for anyone else, but for me the most important feature by far is that it's FF. I hope Leica realizes another FF camera won't necessarily cannibalize sales of their flagship M....

Anyway, thanks for the insight Thrice, much appreciated.

 

[thrice]

No worries Anthony, I don't have full insight into the roadmap so who knows.. they might surprise us both

Cheers,
Dan

 

[Vivek]

Not trying to sound arrogant or anything but I don't think Leica have any issues finding customers for M.

Sounds fair to me. I just would like to know if that is a personal view or Leica's official position.

 

[corposant]

I remember reading somewhere that most enthusiasts (who have never heard of getdpi.com) who buy an interchangeable lens camera typically only use the kit lens.

Maybe Leica has a full frame compact WATE/MATE with a couple of dedicated zoom settings. No need to pioneer a whole Fuji-like roadmaps of new lenses, and no competition with any of their other products. If you only have three focal lengths, even the zoom-detractors might be pleased by what the lens could offer image-wise.

Anyway, nobody has suggested this yet, so maybe I can get some innovation points here!

 

[AnthonyFlores]

I remember reading somewhere that most enthusiasts (who have never heard of getdpi.com) who buy an interchangeable lens camera typically only use the kit lens.

Maybe Leica has a full frame compact WATE/MATE with a couple of dedicated zoom settings. No need to pioneer a whole Fuji-like roadmaps of new lenses, and no competition with any of their other products. If you only have three focal lengths, even the zoom-detractors might be pleased by what the lens could offer image-wise.

Anyway, nobody has suggested this yet, so maybe I can get some innovation points here!

After what Thrice said, I'm realizing that with what Fuji and Sony have done so well in the compact market, and given that they still don't make that much money... it would be impossible for Leica to have a similar performing camera even within 1k of their products.

A Leica RX1 competitor, would have to be almost twice as much I'm guessing... which, given all the complaints about the RX price, would make the Leica version border on absurd.

I wish Leica could do an RX1 competitor for 4k or a little more, but probably not happening

 

[iiiNelson]

After what Thrice said, I'm realizing that with what Fuji and Sony have done so well in the compact market, and given that they still don't make that much money... it would be impossible for Leica to have a similar performing camera even within 1k of their products.

A Leica RX1 competitor, would have to be almost twice as much I'm guessing... which, given all the complaints about the RX price, would make the Leica version border on absurd.

I wish Leica could do an RX1 competitor for 4k or a little more, but probably not happening

I think they already have an RX1 competitor in the X1/2... I think an entry level or more affordable system camera is "needed" though for more brand recognition provided availability isn't going to be a problem as it is generally with M and S cameras/ lenses. If it's a cropped sensor M-mount or if it's a new system that can support M lenses through adapters I don't think it'll cannibalize M sales heavily. Those who want a M (and can afford it) will still buy M's. Those who can't afford or don't need the M usually go mirrorless anyway. If anything it will help Leica drive long term M sales and I'm sure there are M users who would buy a Leica "mini M" camera if it supported M lenses as well.

As it stands the M and definitely the S are "halo" products much like the 1Dx or D4 are for Canon and Nikon. Most people don't go straight to the halo products when getting into a system.

 

[patk]

i have an x1 and an rx1. i do not really consider the x1 to be a competitor to the rx1. can't speak to the x2, but the files alone from the rx1 are a pure delight to work with and the lens - well, it hasn't been widely praised for nothing. i also have an m9 and a couple of (imo) great lenses - the 50mm summilux asph and the 90/4 macro-elmar, along with a couple of other "lesser lights". but it's the rx1 that gets picked up and goes everywhere.

sorry to hear the new mini will not be ff. but my wallet is happy.

 

[Vivek]

Looks like a P&S cam. Leica are slowly opening the box (it is better than that curtain stuff that Olympus pulled before the launch of EP-1).

Leica Camera AG - Home

 

[iiiNelson]

Looks like a P&S cam. Leica are slowly opening the box (it is better than that curtain stuff that Olympus pulled before the launch of EP-1).

Leica Camera AG - Home

Maybe but from the "peek" it appears to be significantly larger than the X2 and barely smaller than the M... If the "peek" is to scale.

 

[Vivek]

"If it is to scale" With that caveat, the plot thickens and there is some reason for excitement.

However, I threw in that EP1 curtain scenario just to temper that. Could be extremely disappointing for many.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

I doubt that it's a new mount, to risky. An M-mount CL size camera with 35mm sensor would be nice, but m4/3 is more likely. They make a couple of lenses for that already, and that market is much, much larger. A Leica version of the rumoured Panasonic GX2?

 

[henningw]

Leica did say something a little over a year ago about coming out with another 'system' or 'system camera' below the M. I was expecting an announcement for Photokina, but it didn't happen.

Mind you, Kaufmann also said in 2008 that a dozen new lenses would be announced in the next year, and that didn't happen.

Henning

 

[Arjuna]

My thoughts:
1. I think that an M-mount is unlikely - it would just cannibalize sales from the M/ME. I suppose it could be considered as a way to get people buying used M8's and M9's to buy something new, but my guess is no.
2. It is supposed to be between and X2 and an M, so I think that a m4/3 sensor is unlikely. I seem to recall some comment from Leica management about 'at least APS-C', but I forget the exact context. I would guess an APS-C or M8 size sensor, although I don't know what the source would be for a current M8 size sensor.
3. One rumour was of something with a fixed zoom lens. An alternative might be a lens with a set of fixed lengths, like a MATE/WATE: how about an APS-C sensor - either from Sony, but newer than the X2's sensor, or perhaps from CMOSIS - and a fixed 28/35/50/75/90 (equivalent) lens? More of a super-sized X2 than a down-sized (CL-sized) M, but it would be interesting. A built-in EVF would be nice, but I suspect that buying an add-on from Olympus is much more practical from a design/manufacturing/cost viewpoint.

Only a couple of weeks until we know for sure.