New Mini M?

[douglasf13]

...and one more point.

Has there been much discussion about the distance scale? That seems like a very useful addition. Proper manual focussing. I don't even have that on my RX-1.

LouisB

Yeah, that's a nice addition, and the barrel of the lens looks really solid, too. Granted, there are no depth of field scales, so it isn't really much more useful than the digital distance scale on your RX1, although it does have a couple more distance markings.

 

[JohnW]

This camera design is growing on me. I shoot street, generally at f8 or higher, as light and ISO performance allow. So no problem there. Good manual focus and a distance scale are not both offered by many mirrorless cameras, so that's also a plus. And to be able to zoom in sometimes wouldn't be bad either.

I would not spend $3K and would likely opt for an X-E1 instead, but the Vario design is not as off-the-wall as I first thought.

John

 

[monza]

The X Vario really is a camera which you can just pick up and use - even if you hadn't used a digital camera before - to say that the specs don't match something like the Fuji is, of course, true - but specs a good photograph do not make.

There are lots of cameras that can just be picked up and used that don't cost $3.4K.

This is a camera with middling specs at a super premium price. If Fuji or Sony or Nikon or anyone else were to produce this exact camera for this exact price, what would everyone be saying?

Clearly, Leica is trying to capitalize on their brand name cachet, and that's perfectly fine. That's not an indictment in any way, shape, or form, of the camera, or of the target market. It remains to be seen if this attempt will be successful, but only Leica can define what that is.

Of course, the specs don't have anything to do with whether the camera is capable of making a good image in the hands of a non-tech (or tech) photographer.

That's who I think this camera is directed at - of course, it's a Leica, so they need to have some money - but then they'd need some money for the Fuji too.

Well, they'd need 1/3 of some money for the Fuji, to be fair.

 

[ptomsu]

I'm not sure what your point is, so I don't know how to respond.

Well it's actually easy - the "wealthy ornament" stuff .... OK?

 

[ptomsu]

There are lots of cameras that can just be picked up and used that don't cost $3.4K.

This is a camera with middling specs at a super premium price. If Fuji or Sony or Nikon or anyone else were to produce this exact camera for this exact price, what would everyone be saying?

Clearly, Leica is trying to capitalize on their brand name cachet, and that's perfectly fine. That's not an indictment in any way, shape, or form, of the camera, or of the target market. It remains to be seen if this attempt will be successful, but only Leica can define what that is.

Of course, the specs don't have anything to do with whether the camera is capable of making a good image in the hands of a non-tech (or tech) photographer.

Well, they'd need 1/3 of some money for the Fuji, to be fair.

I would say if you test this camera and it does not click for you, just forget it, do no longer waste time, thoughts and money and use what suits you better and clicks on you .....

 

[stephengilbert]

"I'm trying hard to understand who this camera is aimed at, outside of just being a bit of a wealthy ornament...not that I have a problem with that."

This reminds me of an old Seinfeld episode. A woman thought he was gay, and every time he denied it, he added, "Not that there's anything wrong with it."

 

[douglasf13]

Well it's actually easy - the "wealthy ornament" stuff .... OK?

Hey, I said I don't have a problem with that, and I'm just trying to talk through the potential buyers of this camera, outside of that description. I just can't imagine this camera spurring much interest if it was identical, but with another logo on it, which, again, doesn't necessarily bother me. I'm not a Leica hater, and the history of the brand is important. I'm just trying to work out the appeal of this camera.

 

[douglasf13]

"I'm trying hard to understand who this camera is aimed at, outside of just being a bit of a wealthy ornament...not that I have a problem with that."

This reminds me of an old Seinfeld episode. A woman thought he was gay, and every time he denied it, he added, "Not that there's anything wrong with it."

But I really DON'T have a problem with that. I'm certainly have my share of those items. This is an enthusiast camera forum, though, so I'm trying to work out what else it could be, because that is what it appears to be on the surface.

 

[Arjuna]

... I can usually find a silver lining in many Leica products, like the X2, but ...

Think of it as an X2, but with a Leica-quality zoom, for an extra $800. Seems like reasonable value.

 

[douglasf13]

Think of it as an X2, but with a Leica-quality zoom, for an extra $800. Seems like reasonable value.

I'll try, but I think I'd spend more on a high quality fixed prime than a very slow fixed zoom. If this camera had a fast-ish zoom, or a collapsible zoom, or a 35mm sensor, the game would change completely, but it is currently an odd combination of things for the price, to me.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Doug the appeal is not in your shoes, we have to remember this always when it comes to products. Basically we need to think outside of ourselves and look at things in a different way. Everyone says that's fine the wealthiest buy it but most people still don't buy into that believe you may say it. ( not pointing at you) But people don't actually think of being the rich guy buying it, it's meaningless cash for many . You and I know we can get better value for our 3k but our 3k to us is maybe 300 to a very wealthy person. We need to think on a different scale and let's be honest many here are on the budget value added scale here. Adam Levin from Marron 5 band pays 600 dollars for a tee shirt that looks like a item I can buy in Target for 19.99 and maybe less for instance. To him its a 19.99 purchase to us 3 k is a really good Nikon D800 or a Leica 28cron or something of bigger desire. The problem is we don't think in those types of wealthy scales.this is bubble gum money to some folks. This for many us not about value at all but just another sexy toy to show to there friends to say there wealthy. Glam Glam my friend something most of us are not into. Hell 3k to me means paying some needed bills. But I like great products but also like many here we are also looking at value for what we buy. This has zero value buying for some. This is not easy to accept but its just a hard cold way of life for some. Leica products in general are much harder to put a value added sticker on it in some ways. Lets get real here buying a Nocti for 10k is insane money. I see zero value in it knowing a 50 pre lux looks better but people buy that Nocti all day long . Value has nothing to do with it for them and that's what keeps the industry growing.

If not for hobbyist MF might have folded years ago for instance. We need to remember this keeps Leicas doors open as well. Nothing wrong with a company supporting its bigger efforts with bread and butter products. Leica earned this rep and they are taking advantage of it. I know if I was CEO I would do the same thing.

 

[ptomsu]

Hey, I said I don't have a problem with that, and I'm just trying to talk through the potential buyers of this camera, outside of that description. I just can't imagine this camera spurring much interest if it was identical, but with another logo on it, which, again, doesn't necessarily bother me. I'm not a Leica hater, and the history of the brand is important. I'm just trying to work out the appeal of this camera.

See, you should not need to work out any appeal of this camera if you handle it for some time. If this does not work for you, I would suggest just to forget about it.

I am ambivalent WRT Leica and had lot of good experiences with that brand but also the other way round - unfortunately. Initially I thought this camera is not even worth to pay any attention to. But as it happened and I went by the Leica store Vienna today, I just thought to give it a look in order to understand the mostly critical if not negative press.

But the outcome is that I am so impressed now, that I just try to forget all "not so good" specs and am looking to get one. It is simply so intuitive and basic to operate and gives IQ at least at the higher end of the whole pack, that this can easily become my next every day general purpose camera or the only one I might take with me for business trips or vacation, if I am not going to photograph special themes like for example wildlife etc.

Once you hold it in your hands you (at least I) just want to use it and this is the most important thing in my opinion. A camera which delivers best on all specs, but which you do not like so much to take with you and shoot is just not as good finally. Call this crazy or however you like, but for me (and I guess also for some others) this is just the case. And then it is up to my experience to master also the most demanding situations with it.

Try it and you either understand that or this camera is simply nothing for you, which is by no means anything personal, you just will save probably lot of money. But is it clicks, you should be highly rewarded with satisfaction taking it out for demanding and fun photography.

 

[Vivek]

"I'm trying hard to understand who this camera is aimed at, outside of just being a bit of a wealthy ornament...not that I have a problem with that."

This reminds me of an old Seinfeld episode. A woman thought he was gay, and every time he denied it, he added, "Not that there's anything wrong with it."

I like that episode as well. Your wit and its judicious use is very much appreciated.

 

[ptomsu]

Doug the appeal is not in your shoes, we have to remember this always when it comes to products. Basically we need to think outside of ourselves and look at things in a different way. Everyone says that's fine the wealthiest buy it but most people still don't buy into that believe you may say it. ( not pointing at you) But people don't actually think of being the rich guy buying it, it's meaningless cash for many . You and I know we can get better value for our 3k but our 3k to us is maybe 300 to a very wealthy person. We need to think on a different scale and let's be honest many here are on the budget value added scale here. Adam Levin from Marron 5 band pays 600 dollars for a tee shirt that looks like a item I can buy in Target for 19.99 and maybe less for instance. To him its a 19.99 purchase to us 3 k is a really good Nikon D800 or a Leica 28cron or something of bigger desire. The problem is we don't think in those types of wealthy scales.this is bubble gum money to some folks.

Guy, your observation is right, but only partially. Even if one does not belong to the crowd who can say that 3k they do not care (which I am not part of) there is the point when one thinks this camera can replace a whole series of equipment (maybe OMD and some lenses or Fuji X and some lenses) and make life simpler (much simpler) while same time providing great (if not superior) IQ and good fun of holding and operating such a camera. I for myself belong to this group.

Not finally decided yet and will give it some more time of reviewing and maybe testing, but if I go that road then either my Oly or Fuji will have to go in order to fund this beast. But from what I have seen so far, this is a very likely option for me.

 

[Double Negative]

Think of it as an X2, but with a Leica-quality zoom, for an extra $800. Seems like reasonable value.

This is exactly how I see it. The X2 intrigued me, but the single focal length left me a little wanting. Now that there's a zoom with such a useful range...

The zoom might be slow, but it's got a decent ISO range - and a built-in flash. Still, a shame there's no IS. That would've gone a long way too.

 

[douglasf13]

Doug the appeal is not in your shoes, we have to remember this always when it comes to products. Basically we need to think outside of ourselves and look at things in a different way. Everyone says that's fine the wealthiest buy it but most people still don't buy into that believe you may say it. ( not pointing at you) But people don't actually think of being the rich guy buying it, it's meaningless cash for many . You and I know we can get better value for our 3k but our 3k to us is maybe 300 to a very wealthy person. We need to think on a different scale and let's be honest many here are on the budget value added scale here. Adam Levin from Marron 5 band pays 600 dollars for a tee shirt that looks like a item I can buy in Target for 19.99 and maybe less for instance. To him its a 19.99 purchase to us 3 k is a really good Nikon D800 or a Leica 28cron or something of bigger desire. The problem is we don't think in those types of wealthy scales.this is bubble gum money to some folks. This for many us not about value at all but just another sexy toy to show to there friends to say there wealthy. Glam Glam my friend something most of us are not into. Hell 3k to me means paying some needed bills. But I like great products but also like many here we are also looking at value for what we buy. This has zero value buying for some. This is not easy to accept but its just a hard cold way of life for some. Leica products in general are much harder to put a value added sticker on it in some ways. Lets get real here buying a Nocti for 10k is insane money. I see zero value in it knowing a 50 pre lux looks better but people buy that Nocti all day long . Value has nothing to do with it for them and that's what keeps the industry growing.

If not for hobbyist MF might have folded years ago for instance. We need to remember this keeps Leicas doors open as well. Nothing wrong with a company supporting its bigger efforts with bread and butter products. Leica earned this rep and they are taking advantage of it. I know if I was CEO I would do the same thing.

I absolutely get that, and that is largely my point. Why would people get angry for me to put this camera in that same category? I'm no saint. I blow money on all kinds of things from time to time.

I'm just trying to open the conversation up from a camera enthusiast's point of view.

Either way, since this isn't the X-Vario image forum, I think conversations like these are kind of the point of these threads, right?

 

[douglasf13]

Guy, your observation is right, but only partially. Even if one does not belong to the crowd who can say that 3k they do not care (which I am not part of) there is the point when one thinks this camera can replace a whole series of equipment (maybe OMD and some lenses or Fuji X and some lenses) and make life simpler (much simpler) while same time providing great (if not superior) IQ and good fun of holding and operating such a camera. I for myself belong to this group.

Not finally decided yet and will give it some more time of reviewing and maybe testing, but if I go that road then either my Oly or Fuji will have to go in order to fund this beast. But from what I have seen so far, this is a very likely option for me.

This is what I'm interested in. I think that is a good reason to go with the X-Vario. I can't imagine that a large percentage of shooters would go this route, primarily because of the speed of the zoom, but I understand your decision.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I tend to agree Peter and a point I did not bring up. I'm a Pro so I have to have gear to stay in business. But more importantly many hobbyists may have a load of gear and something happens they lose interest or tire of lugging this crap around all day long and we see this daily folks giving up there full DSLRs and going mirrorless, 4/3 rds and smaller. There bored or whatever and maybe find a new hobby . I see it all the time and not many hobbyist stick with a hobby for 40 years either they find something more fun, challenging or whatever and they downgrade there whole systems. Just look at our buy and sell its a tell tale sign of what's going on . For some jumping on this Leica maybe all they want to deal with at this point. I hate to see it but its reality. Heck I have the Fuji X-E1 myself and if it was just my hobby it maybe the only thing I have or a Leica M or X for that matter. My hobby is Golf and I have a bag full of top latest generation clubs and I'm pretty damn good at it now. To me its fun when its not fun anymore ill dump the bag and move on to something else. Photography hobby's are no diffrent.

 

[Godfrey]

...and one more point.

Has there been much discussion about the distance scale? That seems like a very useful addition. Proper manual focussing. I don't even have that on my RX-1.

Indeed. That's one of the important details Leica did right. It's particularly useful with video capture as no one I know who does video seriously would ever use auto-focus. Explicit focus control is one of the essential factors in making good video.

Godfrey

 

[fotografz]

I know exactly who Robert is - which is why I made my point - I like and respect him, and I think he does a grand job here.

I think I haven't made my point clear - forget the camera - it's irrelevant, there are two things people are doing/saying which really get up my nose, I think it's rude and offensive and only reflects back on themselves - they are:

1. Saying/Implying that someone knows nothing about photography if they don't want a camera one doesn't personally like/approve of.
2. Saying/Implying that someone who doesn't read photo forums knows nothing about photography

I apologise to Robert for giving it to him in the neck over it, it is just because I do respect him so much and I was surprised.

. . . and yes, I am losing my patience a little, it's being said over and over and over again. . .. .

As I say - forget this camera it isn't the point.

bleah!

Myopic statements often overlook the need for marketing versatility in the real world, rather than the more narrow one of web photo forums ... where we all can get a bit jaded.

Reminds me of my ex-wife who got all caught up in our raging financial success even though both of us came from modest backgrounds. Once when driving on the xway ditch to some toni social event, she wondered who lived up there "Once upon a time, we did." I answered ... just like some of us came from more modest, less grand photo backgrounds ... once upon a time.

Plenty of people up there outside of the "super-highway of photo forums" know a bit about photography, love to take photos, and document their comings and goings. Those more into it may well want to have more analog control of their camera, and may be willing to pay for it in a less toss-away, "here today, gone today" form.

Here's something to set this forum on fire ... from what images I've seen of everyday sorts of documentary images that most people engage in most of the time, this little camera produces better color than the M240 ... so far ... with less effort, nor needing a computer science degree from MIT to get decent skin tones :bugeyes: :shocked:

IMHO.

:ROTFL:

-Marc