Leica M 240 test see samples here

[Guy Mancuso]

New here, but I thought I'd toss in my 2 cents. I've shot my D800 @ 1/8 sec. with no shake, hand held. But I believe it is because the Zeiss 50 Macro balances perfectly. Anything else I need a higher speed or tripod. I've rarely shot any M on tripod, but a recent trip and trying to shoot a pano hand held with M8.2 resulted in an unusable mess. Not sure I want the new M, but I'm still open to the idea.

Welcome John.

I know I said this before and even a small monopod is a very useful tool that many folks seem to leave behind when heading out but it is at least a 2 stop advantage. Heck I would take a monopod anyday over a VR system.

 

[Stefan Steib]

John
as here on the forum are many pro shooters around who will probably confirm they also experienced this, I can also tell you I have done shots in my life where I did even a second out of hand perfectly sharp. But this was shere luck. I cannot repeat this by will and definitely NOT for pro work when I rely on a certain timeframe AND maybe have 1 or 2 shots before the image is over and gone.

Guy
most intriguing fact for me is that the Pro line of cameras is hit more by this than the "low level" point and shoot.
Buy a compact today and you get stabilized handheld sharp images with pretty good quality. The technology, Software and Usability is there, it´s just not translated into Pro areas. Why not ? it´s expensive to devellop such systems and making a bunch of 1 million cameras for 100 $ pays off more easily than doing the same for maybe 5000 pieces even if these are sold for 50x the price.

Greetings from Germany
Stefan

PS.: Vivek the only worthy tripod looks like this one:
owyheesound

 

[fotografz]

:thumbs:

This is the sort of things why I love this forum for its rich (useful) contents.

+1

- Marc

 

[fotografz]

Welcome John.

I know I said this before and even a small monopod is a very useful tool that many folks seem to leave behind when heading out but it is at least a 2 stop advantage. Heck I would take a monopod anyday over a VR system.

In general, I'd tend to agree, which is why I have 5 different Monopods of various sizes, including an original Leitz. 2 of them are always in the SUV if needed.

Yet, for candid "of the moment" rangefinder work, it gets a little unwieldy when there is a 5' stick attached to the camera, and bending or squatting involves adjusting the stick.

- Marc

 

[erick.boileau]

I can really ONLY work satifactory with liveview.

I have the M240 since Mach 2nd and I have never use the RF once (and will never anymore) , EVF and liveview are so flexible (+ focus peaking)

for the question tripod or not : I use very often a monopod with a P0 Arca Swiss

 

[Photojazz]

Great summary Guy, even with the mis-spells.

I have a thick stick, a Feisol for heavy lenses, and a nice Gitzo normal size monopod for lighter rigs, even with a very light ballhead on it with swiss-arca screw mount. Great!

I am one of a few I guess, that I have actually found comfort adapting a D700 L bracket to my M9 for comfort. I actually mount it with the L on the non shooting side, so it helps me stablize the camera in my hand, and use thumbs up on the other side for grip of right thumb. Makes me much surer with my grip. The only pain is, I have to unscrew and remount it every time I Change memory card. stinks, but I do it... The D800, just needs support, for sure. Tri-pod or monopod normally. D3X, somewhere in the middle, will let you know more when my replacement D3X comes today, after messing up and selling my first one. I miss pro body ergonomics.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

In general, I'd tend to agree, which is why I have 5 different Monopods of various sizes, including an original Leitz. 2 of them are always in the SUV if needed.

Yet, for candid "of the moment" rangefinder work, it gets a little unwieldy when there is a 5' stick attached to the camera, and bending or squatting involves adjusting the stick.

- Marc

Lol. It's also a good insurance policy, if you know what I mean.

The one nice thing though maybe not brought up yet as I have not read all the posts is Leicas RF ones that is have a great advantage is they have no mirror slap to deal with which is a nice plus for them.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Great summary Guy, even with the mis-spells.

I have a thick stick, a Feisol for heavy lenses, and a nice Gitzo normal size monopod for lighter rigs, even with a very light ballhead on it with swiss-arca screw mount. Great!

I am one of a few I guess, that I have actually found comfort adapting a D700 L bracket to my M9 for comfort. I actually mount it with the L on the non shooting side, so it helps me stablize the camera in my hand, and use thumbs up on the other side for grip of right thumb. Makes me much surer with my grip. The only pain is, I have to unscrew and remount it every time I Change memory card. stinks, but I do it... The D800, just needs support, for sure. Tri-pod or monopod normally. D3X, somewhere in the middle, will let you know more when my replacement D3X comes today, after messing up and selling my first one. I miss pro body ergonomics.

Damn IPad spell check . Noticed I got a new cam called Nokon. Lol

 

[PeterA]

Jono


Peter
Leica has built a new production line in Solms and I am pretty sure they are building plenty of them, they are just sucked off the dealers shelves in hyperspeed......

Greetings from Germany
Stefan

Hi Stefan - Decent supply will not be available till the new year at the very earliest - fact.
In the meantime - lets all have fun with a 240 :ROTFL:

 

[jonoslack]

I would tend to side with Jono on the subject of tripods, etc.

As these cameras continue to jack up the meg count and attendant resolution, I wonder if they aren't leaving behind their original intent, or at least re-defining it?

Perhaps a difference is between Image Quality (scientific) and Image Qualities (creative)?

HI Marc,Stefan
I like to think of it as IQ vs IC (Image Quality vs Image Content - Science vs Art) - I think about it a very great deal - it is actually the reason that I've never used medium format - because I'm pretty certain that although taking more time and concentrating on the process produces better IQ, it produces worse IC (for me at any rate).

Another point though is that the finished image is just that . . it isn't a teeny weeny portion of it when you've zoomed in on a screen. More MP is great (more sample is nearly always better) - but if you look at a 12mp image at 100% you're looking at a much larger proportion of the finished image then you are looking at a 24mp image at 100%.

I don't really think that there is more camera shake using a D800 than there was using a D700 - it's just that it's a hell of a lot more visible at 100% . . . Is it more visible in the finished image? I doubt it personally.

. . . . . . . of course, this could all be me rationalising my lackadaisical photographic technique :ROTFL::chug:

I think the point I'm trying to make is that one should be aware of the whole balance of subject / equipment / ease of shooting / IC / IS - just trying to squeeze the most detail out of a camera may be what you need . . . . but it also may not - which doesn't mean you don't want all the other advantages of modern high MP sensors.

All the best

 

[Vivek]

I don't really think that there is more camera shake using a D800 than there was using a D700 - it's just that it's a hell of a lot more visible at 100% . . . Is it more visible in the finished image?

No one would dispute that.

However, Jono, your doubt is not open to debate. There are realities and regardless of whether one closes or opens their eyes will always remain so.

 

[Photojazz]

LOL Guy, that was one of them, heh.

Also good points Jono. I have noticed a tendency of seeing some shake drilled down to 100% when hand holding my D800E, and then normal viewing looking ok. I fear though that if you go to printing and taking advantage of that big file size for a big print, you obviously are right back looking at the impurities/shake of the image. For web viewing, it's probably inconsequential, unless you can show original size.

 

[D&A]

Damn IPad spell check . Noticed I got a new cam called Nokon. Lol

Guy, That's not a new camera....Nokon is the term used when mounting a Voigtlander Nokton "F" mount lens onto a Nikon body. Used together, they are referred to as a Nokon! . You obviously have the most current up-to-date spell check on your ipad...LOL!

Dave (D&A)

 

[Chuck Jones]

HI Marc,Stefan
I like to think of it as IQ vs IC (Image Quality vs Image Content - Science vs Art) - I think about it a very great deal - it is actually the reason that I've never used medium format - because I'm pretty certain that although taking more time and concentrating on the process produces better IQ, it produces worse IC (for me at any rate).

Another point though is that the finished image is just that . . it isn't a teeny weeny portion of it when you've zoomed in on a screen. More MP is great (more sample is nearly always better) - but if you look at a 12mp image at 100% you're looking at a much larger proportion of the finished image then you are looking at a 24mp image at 100%.

I don't really think that there is more camera shake using a D800 than there was using a D700 - it's just that it's a hell of a lot more visible at 100% . . . Is it more visible in the finished image? I doubt it personally.

. . . . . . . of course, this could all be me rationalising my lackadaisical photographic technique :ROTFL::chug:

I think the point I'm trying to make is that one should be aware of the whole balance of subject / equipment / ease of shooting / IC / IS - just trying to squeeze the most detail out of a camera may be what you need . . . . but it also may not - which doesn't mean you don't want all the other advantages of modern high MP sensors.

All the best

I couldn't agree more Jono. it is a choice between IQ and IC most of the time. I'll duck the rotten tomatoes as i say this, but to me even using the words "Leica M" and "tripod" in the same sentence are almost sacrilege! I know, horses for courses and all that, but why in the world would someone buy an M240 just to restrict your movement by locking it down to a tripod? The whole POINT to a rangefinder is small, quick, portable, flexible, discrete.

Add the size, bulk, weight, difficulty of setup, impossibility of setup in a crowd, and the attention your going to draw to yourself when someone trips over your damn tripod leg, and what do you have? A rangefinder experience? I don't think so. At least not the rangefinder experience I've grown accustomed to over the years.

 

[Photojazz]

LOL Dave, he must have the iphoto photography language 1.3 update installed

 

[Stefan Steib]

@Chuck

I fully understand your point regarding the tripod use. But then the question must be legitimate what use will 24 Mpix have if you shake away about 50% (or more) of these 24 Mpix resolution ?

Then it´s probably much cheaper and even smaller and faster to use something in the 10-16Mpix range and save a lot of money.

That was my point.

Regards
Stefan

 

[Vivek]

One book in my collection: Image Clarity: High-Resolution Photography: John B Williams: 9780240800332: Amazon.com: Books

Made me think a lot and seek practical solutions (> a decade ago).

One bunch (i am fully aware that not all) follow E. Puts and his Leica writings. To understand a few things that Puts writes about, I would highly recommend Williams' book. Far cheaper than Luigi creations.

Hand held "macro" with no flash is a travesty, IMO (and experience).

 

[Godfrey]

...
As these cameras continue to jack up the meg count and attendant resolution, I wonder if they aren't leaving behind their original intent, or at least re-defining it? ...

When I bought the M9 and started to work with it, it became apparent (to me, anyway) that I work with this camera in two modes. One as the 'near medium format' methodology: tripod, careful attention to setup and focus, etc etc. For that mode I want the best lenses I can afford, the best tripod available, etc. The other is as I often shoot with lower end gear ... quick, fast, hand held for expression and 'the decisive moment', that is, in the traditional Leica M manner.

The new M seems to take the first mode to the next level with even more resolution, etc, but I don't see that it is not possible to continue to work the second way as well. It just seems that we, as techno geeks, want to get the most out of the equipment all the time we can, rather than, as photographers, being satisfied that what is good enough really is good enough.

It's all good. I look forward to when I will acquire a new M. It will be a while yet. The improved responsiveness is great for the traditional Leica M shooting, the additional resolution and Live View is great for the 'near medium format' shooting ...

G

 

[Chuck Jones]

HI Marc,Stefan
I like to think of it as IQ vs IC (Image Quality vs Image Content - Science vs Art) - I think about it a very great deal - it is actually the reason that I've never used medium format - because I'm pretty certain that although taking more time and concentrating on the process produces better IQ, it produces worse IC (for me at any rate).

Another point though is that the finished image is just that . . it isn't a teeny weeny portion of it when you've zoomed in on a screen. More MP is great (more sample is nearly always better) - but if you look at a 12mp image at 100% you're looking at a much larger proportion of the finished image then you are looking at a 24mp image at 100%.

I don't really think that there is more camera shake using a D800 than there was using a D700 - it's just that it's a hell of a lot more visible at 100% . . . Is it more visible in the finished image? I doubt it personally.

. . . . . . . of course, this could all be me rationalising my lackadaisical photographic technique :ROTFL::chug:

I think the point I'm trying to make is that one should be aware of the whole balance of subject / equipment / ease of shooting / IC / IS - just trying to squeeze the most detail out of a camera may be what you need . . . . but it also may not - which doesn't mean you don't want all the other advantages of modern high MP sensors.

All the best

@Chuck

I fully understand your point regarding the tripod use. But then the question must be legitimate what use will 24 Mpix have if you shake away about 50% (or more) of these 24 Mpix resolution ?

Then it´s probably much cheaper and even smaller and faster to use something in the 10-16Mpix range and save a lot of money.

That was my point.

Regards
Stefan

Your point is well taken Stefan and I would agree with your position that in those cases it is probably easier and less expensive to use a different camera. There is no "best" camera for anything in particular, but there certainly are cameras who's design does lend itself to a particular type of work or working style.

However, to my point, what happens if you learn the proper operational technique of this 24MP camera so you don't as you say, shake away 50% of your resolution? There are two ways to approach this problem as I see it, 1) use a crutch (tripod), in which case your better off with a different camera as you said or 2) Develop a better hand held technique. Both are successful outcome results. Both are useful as tricks in your bag. One does not ever replace the other.

Using a tripod may be easier for some in execution, but for those who have the patience, and will invest the ten thousand hours or so it takes to develop a good hand-held technique as Jono, Ashwin, Guy, myself and many others like us here have, it is certainly not easier nor is it faster. In fact, it is a lot more cumbersome working with a tripod or a flash, the other "solution" many would profess. Anything other than a simple camera and lens only serves to add complexity and distraction to a shoot. Sometimes they can't be avoided to get an acceptable photograph. Most often, I find that they can with practice.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

The question remains is when is it good enough and from a Pro seat sometimes its okay to cheat to the low end but also to go full bore as well. I think the point being made here is any gear at this level if you want to squeeze the best out of it than technique will win the day. Here is the crux though if you want to shoot a more free style than folks need to ACCEPT and this is the hard part that you will NOT SEEK the best quality. This part is crucial in understanding those facts and not everyone will accept that and lets say more outside this forum if you know what I mean.