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Thread: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

  1. #51
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    What response?

  2. #52
    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Interesting, I haven't heard anything...
    Do you have a link to the response or press release double negative?

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    The response is in the original post (paraphrased) from my email exchanges with them (see third and latest update). I don't want to name names, but trust me - it's from high up. I'm hoping to get additional details, but it's tough right now as everyone's on vacation.

  4. #54
    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Could you quote this response without paraphrase please?
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Here is the story:

    A non issue made out to be something significant and now the " case" is closed.

    My issue is that I can not find a suitable emoticon to add to this post!
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    The power of the press, tell a story and apologise later, never known to fail because people remember the headlines. This lens will still be 'prone to flare' in many years to come now, whatever Leica do or say.

    Steve

  7. #57
    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Problem is Leica did not say anything officially so far.
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    No, I will not quote a private email, and Leica surely won't say anything "official." The fact is, there ARE lenses out there with issues and I've confirmed that with Leica and have been discussing it with them for a while now. If your lens is affected, contact them directly... They're expecting you.

    I shared this info because I thought some might be interested. But instead, I get endless crap for it. So gents, you're on your own from now on. C'ya.

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    Subscriber Member Chuck Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by LCT View Post
    Problem is Leica did not say anything officially so far.
    And until they do, whether there is basis in fact or not, all the rest of this is just unconfirmed opinion on both sides.

  10. #60
    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?


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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by LCT View Post
    Problem is Leica did not say anything officially so far.
    Why would they if it is limited to a few, maybe a couple, of poorly built lenses? To announce anything will automatically suggest the problem is bigger than it is, which is fuel to the flames as far as Digiloyd with his axe to grind is concerned. Why would a person, or company, want to open themselves to being used to pedal his bias? I mean, if Nikon built a few bad lenses, but the overall production run was going well, would they make a big announcement out of it? Of course they wouldn't, so why expect it from Leica?

    This conspiracy theory with secret emails and a mole in the heart of Leica is pure bollocks, a fantasy. No real journalist would even open up the possibility of suggesting they had a secret source of information as a teaser, because the source would know what a big gob they are dealing with.

    Steve

  12. #62
    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by 250swb View Post
    Why would they if it is limited to a few...
    And how could i believe that it is limited to a few if Leica don't say it themselves? Hiding the truth is never a good thing.

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Most companies will not confirm problems with products unless there is a safety issue or overwhelming evidence of a problem. They would prefer to deal with individual customer service claims .

    I can go back to the M8 and I ve had a dozen or more problems that I ve confirmed with Leica that were never published .

    My situations were not "rumors " I stood right there in Leica s service department and ran the tests myself . But I am sure Leica would not ever want to "confirm " anything . I can also tell you that I ve encountered issues that Leica knew nothing about and later confirmed .

    Now in this case Diglloyd ran tests and showed his work . Believe it or not .....he does good work . Doesn t mean that he is flawless or that he isn t prone to overstatements or even conclusions that may not be generally relevant to most photographers . But those are obvious when you read the details of his tests .

    It is useful to discuss issues like this ..without the "prove it " stuff . If you own an APO 50 ..its good to know that this issue has been seen in some lenses and if Dave says Leica has a fix ...why wouldn t you want to know that ?

    I fully expect that I will never notice this issue with my lens ..I am really not even interested in testing for it . But thats not always the case .

    Personally I would like to stop the "nonsense" of challenging any discussion of issues with Leica gear and the (what I consider) blatant challenges to the OP integrity .

    We get it that Dave wanted a lively discussion ..got something to add ?
    Roger Dunham
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  14. #64
    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    ...
    If you own an APO 50 ..its good to know that this issue has been seen in some lenses and if Dave says Leica has a fix ...why wouldn t you want to know that ?
    ...
    And if you don't own the lens how to be sure that CVF can be fixed if Leica don't tell it? By claiming what Dave said?

  15. #65
    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Replace "lens" by "car" and "central veiling flare" by "braking problem". Would you order the car if the manufacturer doesn't communicate? I don't know for you but it is a problem for me and true false rumors or little insults won't change that.

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    If I was planning to get one of those lenses I would ask Leica before about this possible problem.
    so far Leica has allways solved any of mY problems when something came up (mostbtimes calibration but in one case they even replaced one of my lenses with a new one because there was something wrong with it)
    the other thing is that imo many focus too much on finding issues and forget about the good sides of a product. Imo Loyds review site is a good example for this. Personally I give much more to hear experience from people who use equipment for a longer time in real world instead ofnthose shootinh gear for 2 days, takinh 20 images and drawing conclutions.
    in case of the 50 apo I can fully understand that people expect it to be near perfect in all aspects.
    I also understand that a company will not comment every problem which occurs with some samples of a product.
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Look
    Attachment 76203 Click to enlarge.
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  18. #68
    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Thank you Lou but CVF seems to occur when light sources are outside the frame mostly.

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Look...
    ...at that dust spot.

    Jeff

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Thanks for the meaningful comment on an OOC image.

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Just trying to lighten up a harsh thread. A bit of humor, is all.

    Jeff

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Mine exceeds all of my expectations, including expectations on flare. Scenes with high internal contrast render beautifully crisply. If I put the sun in the frame it looks crappy. But that's also the case if I don't focus, overexpose by 3 stops or leave the lens cap on. Odd looking at people's mistakes and blaming the lens.

    Just an opinion.
    woody
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    Mine exceeds all of my expectations, including expectations on flare. Scenes with high internal contrast render beautifully crisply. If I put the sun in the frame it looks crappy. But that's also the case if I don't focus, overexpose by 3 stops or leave the lens cap on. Odd looking at people's mistakes and blaming the lens.

    Just an opinion.

    Good points! I wonder if those who produced the flare and hotspots used the hood..
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    Mine exceeds all of my expectations, including expectations on flare...
    Then your lens works correctly... No need to send it in. Congrats.

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    no compromise on the price either

  26. #76
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    Mine exceeds all of my expectations, including expectations on flare. Scenes with high internal contrast render beautifully crisply. If I put the sun in the frame it looks crappy. But that's also the case if I don't focus, overexpose by 3 stops or leave the lens cap on. Odd looking at people's mistakes and blaming the lens.

    Just an opinion.


    Have you read Diglloyd s detailed test ? It may not be relevant to your photography but its hardly a mistake . $50-100 a year compared to $7200 for a 50 APO ?

    I guess it shouldn t be surprising to me .....but so many of these posts challenge the validity of the tests . DL puts a ton of effort into his tests ..far more than anyone on this forum has demonstrated . Unless an individual photographer has made a deliberate attempt to test ..in this case of veiling flare ...all you can conclude is that its not a problem for their photography or their lens simply did not demonstrate the problem.

    I don t think this will be a issue for me as I rarely shoot into flare inducing light with any of my lenses . I know DL has a bone to pick with Leica s claims to be producing perfection . But he provides the illustrations and lots of them ...to allow the reader to draw their own conclusions .

    And the OP has confirmed that in fact Leica has found the problem in some lenses and is repairing them when a customer sends them in . Yet so many posts seem to challenge his integrity . This is good information to have if you own the lens ......why badger him endlessly .

    Seems like a good "heads up " to check your 50 APO for this possibility ...something I plan to do with my lens .
    Roger Dunham
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by 250swb View Post
    But I think calling anybody a troll who simply disagrees with you is a booking offence, and it really shouldn't be tolerated in an open forum.
    Too bad mods don't seem to care.

    Jeff

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Lens designers have a number of tools to combat veiling flare.
    Besides coatings, two major techniques are internal lens baffling or anti-reflective treatment and another is to paint the edges of each element black.
    It is not hard to imagine that the edge treatment might have been missed or defective. I have seen this before from two different manufacturers.
    But it is there business to deliver a product liked by enough folks who are willing to pay the price to make it profitable, and I am sure they are motivated to investigate the claims. I seriously doubt that there will be a grand announcement of "we found the glitch".
    -bob
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff S View Post
    Too bad mods don't seem to care.

    Jeff
    We do.
    -bob

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Have you read Diglloyd s detailed test ? It may not be relevant to your photography but its hardly a mistake . $50-100 a year compared to $7200 for a 50 APO ?

    I guess it shouldn t be surprising to me .....but so many of these posts challenge the validity of the tests . DL puts a ton of effort into his tests ..far more than anyone on this forum has demonstrated . Unless an individual photographer has made a deliberate attempt to test ..in this case of veiling flare ...all you can conclude is that its not a problem for their photography or their lens simply did not demonstrate the problem.

    I don t think this will be a issue for me as I rarely shoot into flare inducing light with any of my lenses . I know DL has a bone to pick with Leica s claims to be producing perfection . But he provides the illustrations and lots of them ...to allow the reader to draw their own conclusions .

    And the OP has confirmed that in fact Leica has found the problem in some lenses and is repairing them when a customer sends them in . Yet so many posts seem to challenge his integrity . This is good information to have if you own the lens ......why badger him endlessly .

    Seems like a good "heads up " to check your 50 APO for this possibility ...something I plan to do with my lens .
    Hi Roger,

    Since the site you quote is out of reach for me since I refuse to pay for such, I do not have full knowledge of the entire story.

    Let me ask you to check the very same site if any similar problems had been reported for Coastal Optics 60/4. If the answer is no then whatever claim you make about that tester is groundless.

    I (and many others) would rather believe Leica than some pay site which also said that the MM was a crap product.

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Moderator's note:
    Folks, sorry to say we do not read EVERY post on EVERY thread.
    This thread has gotten out of hand and I have warned once.
    Obviously my gentle warning has gone unheeded so I have cleaned up the thread a bit and handed out infractions.
    Please, I HATE taking administrative actions such as these and would sincerely rather that everyone play nice and not be irritating, insulting, or worse.
    It is not fun for those involved and really it is not fun for the moderators either.
    If necessary, and if I see this sort of thing continue, I will be handing out bans based on the severity of the infraction.
    Carry on (politely)
    -bob
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    +1. Thanks Bob
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Hi Roger,

    Since the site you quote is out of reach for me since I refuse to pay for such, I do not have full knowledge of the entire story.

    Let me ask you to check the very same site if any similar problems had been reported for Coastal Optics 60/4. If the answer is no then whatever claim you make about that tester is groundless.

    I (and many others) would rather believe Leica than some pay site which also said that the MM was a crap product.
    Vivek

    Forgive me but I don t believe you are following my logic . I don t care at all about DL conclusions or his outrageous blog headlines. What I follow are the detail tests and the illustrations he provides . I draw my own conclusions from what his tests show and from other "what I consider to be reliable sources" . DL does a good job of documenting his assumptions and often provides plausible mitigating circumstances (like a bad copy of the lens).

    My personal experience has been that ...while I don t always agree with Lloyd s conclusions ..I often learn things that are relevant to my photography . He simply tests beyond what I have time for . But I do consider him to be a reliable source and I can review the details if I choose .

    Leica on the other hand has generally not been forthcoming with really most of the issues I have encountered . I don t consider this as a lacking of integrity ...but they just don t provide us with that information . They react to warranty requests and sometimes to forum chatter . I can cite a dozen examples but that just further inflame the discussion . My only point here is that ..I would place little faith in the fact that Leica has not made a public statement .

    As I stated before ......my conclusions were as follows :

    1. DL has found a problem with flare in his copy of the APO50 and it would look from the examples to be a weakness in the lens he tested .

    2. The OP has discussed this with Leica and reported that they have acknowledged the issue to him . Have and will fix 50APO that demonstrate the issue on a case by case basis . They did not consider this to be "normal " for the 50APO.

    3. Flare has not been a significant issue for my personal photographic needs and I would not expect this to be an issue for me . (as it has not been for many other users ) .

    4. If I notice I am getting more flare than I expected I will request that Leica check my lens .

    This seems like a reasonable perspective on the whole ..your situation and conclusions may be different .
    Roger Dunham
    http://rogerdunham.com/
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff S View Post
    Too bad mods don't seem to care.

    Jeff
    You want this job. Long hours , no pay and clean up people's messes. Or worse try to make people respectful. Which BTW you could take a lesson on.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    You want this job. Long hours , no pay and clean up people's messes. Or worse try to make people respectful. Which BTW you could take a lesson on.
    I made the comment before I saw Double Negative's inappropriate photo taken down...finally. He doesn't deserve respect with antics like that. And I thanked Bob for his above response and action.

    I already have a job with no pay, long hours and lots of messes to clean up. But thanks for the offer to take on another one.

    Jeff

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    I am going to be selling one of these soon since I cannot induce CVF and feel I have been slighted by Karbe and company.

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Humor alert...

    Will that leave you with one or two?

    Jeff

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Vivek

    Forgive me but I don t believe you are following my logic .
    Correct.

    As i pointed out, DL (one of the early reviewers) did not find a problem (hotspotting) with a similarly priced lens (CO 60/4), AFAIK.

    The few who posted here who own and use the lens is brushed aside as not testing it thoroughly.

    I do not see any logic at all in the recommendation that 50 some $ is worth to read a pay site (DL or similar other) before buying Leica equipment.

    Yeah, checking any lens for faults is a good thing and any responsible buyer would do that regardless of any paysite reviews.

  39. #89
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Correct.

    As i pointed out, DL (one of the early reviewers) did not find a problem (hotspotting) with a similarly priced lens (CO 60/4), AFAIK.

    The few who posted here who own and use the lens is brushed aside as not testing it thoroughly.

    I do not see any logic at all in the recommendation that 50 some $ is worth to read a pay site (DL or similar other) before buying Leica equipment.

    Yeah, checking any lens for faults is a good thing and any responsible buyer would do that regardless of any paysite reviews.
    Vivek

    It is becoming more difficult to have a civil conversation with you on anything .

    Since you don t feel that $50 is a wise investment ...you may not have been able to actually read DL tests . I have personally seen him identify issues that others have swore just were not present in Leica equipment . This doesn t mean that I am brushing aside anyones experience (and I strongly object to you characterizing my post as doing so ). If you haven t read the test in question ...stop acting like your opinion on DL actually matters .

    In the article DL pointed out that he never expected to even need to test for veiled flaring .its not something that he usually encounters . But on his particular favorite illustration of the tree with the star burst sun in the background he got some . So he investigated and went back to many of the other lenses ..Leica ,zeiss and others to test . In his tests he found some but the 50APO was more prone to demonstrate it . It happened I have seen the test shots ...its there in the illustrations .

    This in no way means that every lens does this (he had a sample of one ) or that others don t have lenses that never demonstrate it . In my case (and I can speak for myself ) ..I would never see this . I might get a few frames with flare out of a 1000 much less than the number I personally blow .

    But then the OP followed up (and I have no reason to doubt his integrity but I also realize that "facts " passed thru several people can be misunderstood or even biased ) .......he posted that Leica acknowledged the issue and that they would handle repairs if and when a customer sent in the lens . I mean that sounds pretty good rather than the "we have never seen this ever answer that we sometimes get from any of the camera vendors ".

    None of us are perfect in this process ..but I actually shoot over 20K images a year with my digital M s ...I read all the tests and it just helps me better understand what might be happening in my images .

    I would have appreciated a nice clean flow through this thread that provide real contributions ..verse petty disagreements .

    Bob Guy ..happy to do my time in the penalty box for arguing "balls and strikes " .

    Vivek

    I did find a nice feature on the forum which allows you to block all posts from those you feel are just taking up air space . Please include my name on it and you will feel a lot better .

    Roger
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  40. #90
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Vivek,

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    As i pointed out, DL (one of the early reviewers) did not find a problem (hotspotting) with a similarly priced lens (CO 60/4), AFAIK.
    Correct.

    Not all content on Lloyd's website requires subscription to view. His review of the Coastal Optics 60mm f/4 is freely available to view. Refer here for the review, and here for the page of the review that relates to the hot spot issue.

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    There certainly is a lot of line noise in this thread. I wish people that didn't actually have anything valuable to contribute would just stay out of it.

    Whether people want to believe it or not, there are 50 APOs out there that have physical issues. Leica is (now) aware of it, knows what the problem is and will fix/replace those sent in for service. 'Nuf said.
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by AreBee View Post
    Vivek,



    Correct.

    Not all content on Lloyd's website requires subscription to view. His review of the Coastal Optics 60mm f/4 is freely available to view. Refer here for the review, and here for the page of the review that relates to the hot spot issue.
    Rob, Please read the 2nd link you posted and that shows how "thorough" the testings were.

    FWIW, that lens has a Macro designation.

    Here is an identification of the problem and a prescription as to how to overcome it: CoastalOpt 60 mm hotspot issue

    How ingenious is that?

    My question as to whether the testers who produced hotspots used the lens hood still remains. I purposely invoked the CO 60/4 because there are certain similarities in the lens designs. Also the Savazzi link should be taken in to account and the solution he prescribes ought to be tried for the 50 AA as well.

  43. #93
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    To be honest I never met a OEM to have a 100 percent production perfection in a single lens line. There always seems to be some issue. I have been through several Nikon, canon, phase lenses in the past where one performed better than another one. Leica is no exception and actually could be worse given most things are hand assembled and could very well be human error. Leica cameras for instance since entering digital have had some or more issues than normal. I had the M8 with not only one but 2 sudden death syndromes in two different bodies, I lived on loaners for months. Anything is possible and flare is certainly a possibility and as Bob stated above in a post many things can affect that. It's not out of the realm of things when reports are pretty evident. I read DLs as well on the public side on it. Regardless what one thinks of him and his reviews it was pretty dang evident it flared a lot. Is it in every lens, maybe not but stranger things have happened. Defending Leica does no one any good and without formal complaints and open talk than that lovely M8 would have never been fixed and just the IR bleed alone would have never made it to the engineers to figure out at least a fix for it. Folks need to get past the I spent a lot of money on this and its perfect. This is digital folks any nothing about it is perfect., lets be clear on that . It's still a emerging technology.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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  44. #94
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff S View Post
    I made the comment before I saw Double Negative's inappropriate photo taken down...finally. He doesn't deserve respect with antics like that. And I thanked Bob for his above response and action.

    I already have a job with no pay, long hours and lots of messes to clean up. But thanks for the offer to take on another one.

    Jeff
    Two negatives don't make a positive.

    Also if that is your life than that is even more of a dumb comment to make .

    Let me be even be more perfectly clear. This is maybe the only photo forum that has REAL moderation than any other one out there and with that comes even more moderation on dumb and useless comments. This works both ways my friend. The more you dish other members the more moderation we will put on you. There is no free lunch here and you can't have your cake and eat it too. You piss me off or another mod. Your taking you nuts in your own hands. If you don't like that kind of moderation than this may not be the place for you . And let me give you a slight clue here calling out a moderators job here gets you no respect at all. Period

    You got a issue with the way we handle things report to moderators button is your friend not posting some comment about our jobs in public.

    Now that is my way to moderate this place.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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  45. #95
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    If that sounds pissy well it is. I'm tired of these kool aid arguments.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    To be honest I never met a OEM to have a 100 percent production perfection in a single lens line...
    (snipped for brevity)

    Couldn't agree more, Guy. I've never met an OEM to have 100% perfection in anything. The reasonable expectation is that everything you buy is (near) perfect. But the realistic expectation should be that that's not always going to be the case. In the end, it's how they deal with it that matters. If they make it right by you, you're a winner.

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Two wrongs indeed don't make a right, Guy. Yet you respond with your own public insults. Thank you for modeling respectful behavior.

    My volunteer efforts involve life and death matters; this is mere internet discussion.

    I trust that this will be deleted, probably generate another classy retort, and result in my permanent exit. I'll save you the trouble.

    Jeff

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Jeff, give it a rest already, huh? Or start your own thread for this stuff.

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    As for pay sites, which admittedly is somewhat off-topic... The value derived is a personal thing. There is no right or wrong. You are free to choose - whether you subscribe or not. You shouldn't take anything you read (especially on the Internet, LOL) literally, at least without some thought and questioning in your own mind. But additional data points when trying to arrive at an (expensive) decision are never a bad thing. If the subscription fee saves you from making a costly mistake, I'd say it was worthwhile.

    I said, "I'll never subscribe to Reid Reviews!" Yet I did, for two years. It was interesting reading, I enjoyed his methodology and breadth of articles. I took his content, along with everything else "out there" and made up my OWN mind in the end. All pieces of the puzzle. I stopped my subscription simply because the Flash interface is just bollocks.

  50. #100
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    One has to appreciate the difficulty with subscription test sites and the "free flow" of discussion here.

    Love La vida loca because it is open.

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