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Thread: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

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    Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Seems there *may* be some issues with the lens; either (multiple) copies of the lens in the field or an actual design problem - which manifests itself as mild, but noticeable veiling flare to full-on, multi-ring flare.

    I've emailed some contacts at Leica to see if they have any comment...

    Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    This LUF post articulates some other possible explanations for various flaring effects.

    I also think that it would be appropriate for the OP to mention LUF (or other sources) in the article. I'm sure Leica has gotten feedback and is aware of the discussions.

    Jeff

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff S View Post
    This LUF post articulates some other possible explanations for various flaring effects.

    I also think that it would be appropriate for the OP to mention LUF (or other sources) in the article. I'm sure Leica has gotten feedback and is aware of the discussions.

    Jeff
    That post, IMO, is a bit misleading. There are few modern examples of lenses with a concave rear element for some optical corrections ( I also happen to have a museum sample of a Zeiss UV-Planar from the 70's that has a similar concave rear element), while some do show hot spot problems (Fuji 60mm macro at close up magnifications), generally the positives outweigh a few minor issues.

    Trying to keep the size minimal adds to this and there will be some compromises.

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    He gives examples and pics using other lenses with this concave characteristic, but this isn't the only flare condition he mentions. So I certainly wouldn't call the entire post misleading; rather it suggests different subsets of flare situations, for which there might be a plausible explanation not discussed elsewhere.

    I certainly don't have the technical knowledge to debate it; just pointing out another possible cause not cited by the OP. In any event, I was more generally referring to the entire thread, and suggesting that the OP should give credit where it's due.

    Jeff

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    I'm sorry, give credit to who? LOL. I'm not even on that site. If anything, Lloyd Chambers discovered this starting back in April (to the best of my knowledge). But since the details are behind a paywall/commercial site, I can't provide a direct link to the content.

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Ironically, Puts had this to say;

    "...The SCR, while in itself a high contrast lens, has a certain propensity to flare. The ASCR50 on the other hand is not only flare-free, but does suppress the internal reflections and the veiling glare on small areas totally. This behavior is not only the result of the mechanical mount and its internal baffling structures, but mainly to the reduction of residual aberrations..."
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    So your findings that more and more people are reporting issues in the last three months come from Lloyd Chambers' site? My suggestion was to mention LUF "or other sources". I just think that citing references is good form. YMMV.

    Jeff
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    I put a link to digilloyd, though you won't see much.

    I'm also in contact with Leica now about the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff S View Post
    ...I'm sure Leica has gotten feedback and is aware of the discussions.
    For the record, they have not and are not. But they are now (see above).

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post
    For the record, they have not and are not. But they are now (see above).
    Well, the OP who started the thread on LUF about 3 weeks ago has sent his lens to Solms with his examples, and others have followed suit.

    Beyond that, some Leica staff follow LUF posts on service related concerns, as they post comments from time to time. Stefan Daniel himself posted on the forum in response to the M8 LCD screen problems.

    Just because your Leica contact indicated no familiarity with the issue doesn't mean that others aren't involved. Especially on their 'flagship' lens.

    Jeff

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    Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?


    gosh, talk about highjacking a thread ...
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Holy smokes kids.
    What happens at LUF maybe ought to stay at LUF.
    Post observations, measurements, samples, facts, and let those boast for you.
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    As seen here:




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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    I can make all my lenses do that...
    I'll try with a 50 apo today if the sun comes out.
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    One going theory is reflections off of the sensor and convex lens elements are at fault. It would be interesting to see this tested with a film body, which would help to rule that out.

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    I can make all my lenses do that...
    I'll try with a 50 apo today if the sun comes out.
    I do believe there's more to it than those samples indicate... Just going by those alone, sure - I do believe I can make several do that also.

    But I'd certainly like to see what your results are!

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post
    One going theory is reflections off of the sensor and convex lens elements are at fault. It would be interesting to see this tested with a film body, which would help to rule that .

    Film is not shiny?

    That speculation is in the wrong direction.

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Film is not shiny?

    That speculation is in the wrong direction.
    Oh, it's shiny - but perhaps not quite as much as the sensor, nor as flat. It's also less metallic in nature. Not saying it's a definitive test, but worth a shot.

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Avoid Specular sources in or just off the frame.
    -bob
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Avoid Specular sources in or just off the frame.
    A $7k lens shouldn't come with caveats. Just sayin'

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post
    A $7k lens shouldn't come with caveats. Just sayin'
    I doubt that price will overcome physics.
    -bob
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    Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?


    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post

    I can make all my lenses do that... (...)

    hm, not quite that easy for me
    here's such an example with a totally different optic



    ©lick for actual pixels (10.2 Mb)


    © • Nikon D800E • AF-S Nikkor 1.8/28mm G • 1/250 sec. at f/8 ISO 100 • Capture NX 2.4.2

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Sorry guys, couldn't test. We had a dealer buy our demo 50 APO
    We will probably put another one into demo in August.

    My $6300+ Schneider 35/5.6 APO-Digitar has a far less complex optical/mechanical design yet it flares oddly in difficult situations.

    Those crazy ghosts are quite certainly because of reflections back & forth off the sensor.
    It will be interesting to hear whether these lenses sent to Germany come back with the issue 'repaired' or if it is simply a byproduct of the optical design, perhaps in conjunction with a filter or without the integrated hood extended?

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    I doubt that price will overcome physics.
    Yes, Mr. Spock would be proud... But I don't think anyone's expecting the lens to overcome physics, steep price or not.

    The primary symptom of the flaring isn't so much the examples from 'Lloyd posted above as much as it is "central veiling flare." But alas, he's got those samples stashed behind the paywall...

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Lloyd and LUF are the same. Images on both sites are not obviously visible.
    Hence both have no value in getting quoted for a discussion here.

    I personally think the lens is a bargain at 7k if one has the money for it.
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Perhaps a new line of lenses "Die optische Spaß"?
    Every lens maker I know is able to have a bad sample from time to time or a design with particular quirks in usage.
    -bob

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Well, since everyone already has all the answers - I'm done here. Have fun.

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    You guys are too funny. I said elsewhere and I'll say it here: This is not "Leica's tour de force" and "Holy grail lens". It's simply a new design and its pricing sets the bar for the next upcoming Leica lenses.

    We can expect the next Summiluxes to be in the 10K$ range, the next Crons in the 6-7K$ range and that's it.

    Why everyone expects "perfection" is beyond me. Some people just don't realize what Leica is about. The whole (and only) magic about Leica is the make-believe part. I am a Leica user for a long time now, I own all their best lenses. But I am not stupid either. I fully realize just how good the Nikkor 50 f1.8D is. In a blind test, it easily rivals any apo asph BS out there.
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Leica lenses haven't glowed in a long time, too long. Perfection has taken away character with the latest offerings and oh how I wish they would do something that intentionally has a lens signature, but perhaps not in the same way as the 50mm APO.

    That other Leica forum has been discussing the problems since early July without any updates or news to speak of. I would hope that next time the computer churns out a new design they send the office junior out with it for a weekend testing how normal people use it. Because I think this is the problem, they give pre-production lenses to competent photographers who want to impress Leica with their output, when we all know that over time, in the real world, even the best encounter less than perfect conditions sooner or later. So they should go the other way, not give them to anybody with any sense or knowledge of photography, and see how the results turn out with pictures of grandma on the beach.

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Though granted, it's a 16 year old design...

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    I get ray-gun flares from bright in-frame sources using my 21SEM and 28/2.8 ASPH on the Nex-7. The former has a perfectly flat rear element and the latter is not very convex. Seems to me it's got to do with the coatings on both the lens and the sensor. And that there's not much you can do to overcome it except make your sensor as non-reflective as possibe.

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor Sherman View Post
    I get ray-gun flares from bright in-frame sources using my 21SEM and 28/2.8 ASPH on the Nex-7. The former has a perfectly flat rear element and the latter is not very convex. Seems to me it's got to do with the coatings on both the lens and the sensor. And that there's not much you can do to overcome it except make your sensor as non-reflective as possibe.
    That is odd, I get nothing by the way of flare with my 21 SEM, can you post an example? Is your adapter maybe to blame?

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    That is odd, I get nothing by the way of flare with my 21 SEM, can you post an example? Is your adapter maybe to blame?
    Hmm; I can't find what I was thinking of, there's a little bit of it in this picture:

    DSC07953.jpg | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

    The strongest one IIRC was with the 28, and I didn't upload that so I'll have to look for it tonight. I definitely remember seeing 3 or 4 ghosts next to a bunch of lights (think it was from a chandelier) in a picture.

    It could? be the adapter. Not sure how the light angles would need to be for that though.

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Ah, I've never used the 21SEM on a Sony sensor but given then number of layers with air-gaps in their sensor package I am not too surprised that you are seeing ghosts. Are you using a UV filter for those shots?

    Have a look here all taken with the 21 SEM on M240. A few have bright light sources and I see no ghosts. I will try and do a controlled test for you.

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Yeah, I see the ghosts with other lenses now too, now that I look for it. Everything from the Elmar 135 to the Touit 12. I think it's reflections within the sensor toppings. Bleh, oh well. Probably the 5N, 5R, and 6 are better about this, being newer designs. Here's hoping the FF nex will be too. . .
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post
    isn't so much the examples from 'Lloyd posted above as much as it is "central veiling flare." But alas, he's got those samples stashed behind the paywall...
    Then why not do some primary research? Rather than leech off of the work and findings of others for your "blog", get hold of a copy of the lens and test for the veiling flare yourself.
    Last edited by wattsy; 30th July 2013 at 07:03.
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Avoid Specular sources in or just off the frame.
    -bob
    HI Bob
    quite agree and . . .

    Avoid Speculation sources in, or just off the frame

    Oh, and those bearing grudges as well.

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by NB23 View Post
    You guys are too funny. I said elsewhere and I'll say it here: This is not "Leica's tour de force" and "Holy grail lens". It's simply a new design and its pricing sets the bar for the next upcoming Leica lenses.

    We can expect the next Summiluxes to be in the 10K$ range, the next Crons in the 6-7K$ range and that's it.
    HI There - actually, no - this really is a 'one off' (of course there may be other 'one offs' later). But I really don't think that it's a new pricing step for future lenses.
    Quote Originally Posted by NB23 View Post
    Why everyone expects "perfection" is beyond me. Some people just don't realize what Leica is about.
    Quite

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    I always thought the only flarefree lens was a pinhole....
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
    I always thought the only flarefree lens was a pinhole....
    And then only if you forgot to load the film.

    Show me a "flair free" lens, and I will show you a lens with the lens cap still in place!
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post

    Show me a "flair free" lens, and I will show you a lens with the lens cap still in place!
    All Leica lenses have "flair" - cap or no cap.
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Gentlemen,
    Enough of the bicker.
    Don't make it personal or I will be forced to hand out infractions all around.
    Please refer to the forum rules.
    The tone of a polite dinner conversation is strongly preferred.
    thanks
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Please pass the flarefree salt.

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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Gentlemen,
    Enough of the bicker.
    Don't make it personal or I will be forced to hand out infractions all around.
    Please refer to the forum rules.
    The tone of a polite dinner conversation is strongly preferred.
    thanks
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    Ah, I've never used the 21SEM on a Sony sensor but given then number of layers with air-gaps in their sensor package I am not too surprised that you are seeing ghosts. Are you using a UV filter for those shots?

    Have a look here all taken with the 21 SEM on M240. A few have bright light sources and I see no ghosts. I will try and do a controlled test for you.
    Rayguns! This is with my (new) Summicron 28 on the Nex-7. I think it's probably the sensor toppings. Ah, I should try with the Nex 5N/6 next time and see if they're better, as I believe they have thinner (or at least different) toppings.


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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    I like mine and I have yet to get flare. Guess I don't know how to use a camera.
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor Sherman View Post
    Rayguns! This is with my (new) Summicron 28 on the Nex-7. I think it's probably the sensor toppings. Ah, I should try with the Nex 5N/6 next time and see if they're better, as I believe they have thinner (or at least different) toppings.
    I think (speculate) that the thickness does not matter.

    Leica sensor cover glass is double side coated besides being thin. None of theNEX' have that and the cover glass is uncoated on both the sides. This does 2 things: 1. Minimize aberrations projected onto the sensor. 2. Maximum transmission.

    Rather a simple thing to do but no one other than Leica (AFAIK) do this. One possible exception to this general statement could be Fuji X series cams. Even if Fujihas that, none of their sensors sport any offset microlenses. The closest you have to a Leica is a Ricoh GXR M mount.
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    E. Puts is sticking by his review, and doesn't think much about internet chatter (including sloppy testing or reporting) to the contrary, particularly not as a general lens characteristic.

    Jeff
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    I have this lens since several months and I have used it on M9, MM, and M without any problem.
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    Re: Trouble with Leica Flagship Summicron?

    Leica has responded, they did find issues, and are taking actions to resolve.

    This may apply to some...


    Eating crow is an American colloquial idiom, meaning humiliation by admitting wrongness or having been proved wrong after taking a strong position.

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