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What is the attraction to vintage Leica lenses?

V

Vivek

Guest
But B&W is different ...the MONO creates a very flat linear contrast raw file ..with enough dynamic range to really spread the tones out .

One thing is for sure the MONO really delivers .
The MM really delivers- no question about it.

Have you tried using filters on the lenses? The possibilities are endless with many variations. "Flat", low contrast images depend on the filtration and the light.

I disagree with your conclusion part. If you have a chance, try the measley M-Rokkor 28/2.8 vs the 28/2 Summicron. Apart from the speed, I found no difference in terms of image clarity on the MM . Diffcult to believe and one has to experience it to see it for themselves.
 

asiafish

Member
Almost all the lenses I use with the MM are vintage but non Leica. It was a conscious choice.

I have said this here many a times and say it again: the magic comes from the Leica MM and the lens plays a very little part. Even a pre-war 1930s, uncoated, non Leica mount (would be dismissed as a piece of crap by most, including me) CZJ Tessar 3cm f/2.8 makes poetical images on the MM. Though atrociously priced and sadly out of reach for most who do photography, the MM is a brilliant tool. :)

(Those who said otherwise had absolutely no clue about what they were talking about! :lecture:)
ABSOLUTELY agree. While I haven't yet learned PP and therefore do not yet know how to extract the potential from MM files, the level of detail and tonality is incredible. I consider myself fortunate indeed to be able to work with such an amazing tool, whether it is fitted with my Summarit-M 35 lenses or my very old and very cheap Jupiter 3 5cm. The lens adds its character, but the magic is in the detail and the tones.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
I hope I didn t create any confusion ..but I want a flat linear file with a wide dynamic range . This allows me the maximum opportunity to map the tones as I see fit with each photograph . This does not mean that I want lenses that are lacking in micro contrast but rather that strong edge sharpness (macro contrast) isn t a real priority .
 

KurtKamka

Subscriber Member
I have difficult enough decision deciding which lens to use when I leave in the morning with just a few lenses on my shelf. If I paid attention to all of Ashwin's wonderful options, I'd be paralyzed and unable to get out the door. ;)

That doesn't mean that I wouldn't mind trying them all out though ...
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Here's a list of classic lenses that I have found be marvelous on the M Monochrom, in terms of balanced sharpness, tonal rendition. Just my opinion is all...

1. Modern lenses
-- Leica 28 mm f/2 Summicron Asph
-- Leica 35 mm f/2.5 Summarit
-- Leica 35 mm f/1.4 Asph pre-FLE

2. Classic Leitz lenses
-- Leitz 35 mm f/2 8-element Summicron (v1)
-- Leitz 50 mm f/2 Rigid Summicron (v2)
-- Leitz 90 mm f/2 Summicron (E48, 2nd version)
-- Leitz 90 mm f/2.8 Elmarit (E39; flares without the hood though)

3. Classic Canon RF glass; requires LTM-M adapter
-- Canon 35 mm f/2 LTM
-- Canon 50 mm f/1.8 LTM
-- Caon 85 mm f/1.8 LTM
-- Canon 100 mm f/2 LTM

4. Nikkor (Nippon Kogaku) LTM lenses, requires LTM to M adapter as well
-- W-Nikkor 35 mm f/1.8 LTM
-- Nikkor 50 mm f/1.4 LTM
-- Nikkor 85 mm f/2 LTM
-- Nikkor 105 mm f/2.5 LTM
-- Nikkor 135 mm f/3.5 LTM

Other lenses that work well
-- Leica Summilux 75 mm f/1.4
-- Leica 50 mm f/1.4 Summilux Asph
-- Zeiss ZM 50 mm f/1.5 C-Sonnar
-- Jupiter-3 50 mm f/1.5 LTM
-- Leitz Elmar 5 cm f/3.5 Red Dial

Solid performers, but not quite in my favorites pile
-- Canon 50 mm f/1.2 LTM
-- Canon 50 mm f/1.5 LTM (Sonnar)
-- Canon 50 mm f/1.4 LTM
-- Nikkor 50 mm f/2 LTM (Sonnar)
Ashwin, I don't like this list. It makes my piddly little collection of lenses seem so inferior.

]'-)

G
 

monza

Active member
Ashwin, a wonderful collection! I even know several of them personally, by serial number. :)

But...I must ask...where is your Voigtlander set?!

Anyone using the new-style 50/1.5 Nokton?
 

ashwinrao1

Active member
Ah Voightlander....the 21 mm f/1.8, 35 mm f/1.7, 50 mm f/1.5..... All on my wish list ....particularly the 21
 

ashwinrao1

Active member
Thanks all, and no worries, Jono. I was worried about my rankings and ravings and what effects they may have had.....
 

jonoslack

Active member
I have difficult enough decision deciding which lens to use when I leave in the morning with just a few lenses on my shelf. If I paid attention to all of Ashwin's wonderful options, I'd be paralyzed and unable to get out the door. ;)

That doesn't mean that I wouldn't mind trying them all out though ...
My feelings exactly Kurt - I have 8 M lenses in total, and it causes me terrible anguish deciding what to go out with!

All the best
Jono
 
V

Vivek

Guest
I'll play the contrarian card and say that I prefer Leica's latest lenses on the MM. They seem to provide a bit more bite than the older lenses that I've tried on the camera. The look that I get from a Canon 100/2 is very different than something like a 35FLE. Personally, I'm not necessarily trying to find a look that mimics film and find that I prefer a lens that provides an aesthetic with more clarity and contrast. The great thing about the MM is that it provides such a great palette of options.
Ashwin's enthusiasm is ought to be encouraged and appreciated. I took the MM with the M-Rokkor (+3 filters) 28/2.8, M-Rokkor 40/2, W-Nikkor-C 2.5cm f/4 (+2 filters) and the Nikkor P.C 10cm f/2.5 out , yesterday. Most used was the 28/2.8. Only a few shots with the tele lens. Others were unused. The weight and size of those are so small and hence I have no complaints. The worry for me though is the NEX + one lens that have in my bag that almost never gets used.:eek:

On the post about "micro contrast" by Roger: Personal choice. AFAIC, I am not missing anything with what I am using.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Roger and all,

I think the M Monochrome offers a huge array of creative lens choices by narrowing the intent to B&W ... sounds remedial, but we often forget that by eliminating color from the equation many optics languishing in gear closets are coming to the forefront.

In many cases my trek with the M involved use of the "classics" being discussed when they were new :eek: ... so, I wince a bit ... I guess I'm just an old classic myself :ROTFL:

Had I started this M "thing of ours" 30 years later, when I could afford to keep each precious lens as I moved on to explore newer Leica offerings, I'd also have a jaw dropping laundry list of classic Leica lenses and cameras.

Unfortunately, I'm a bit to practical to have done that since some cameras and lenses I owned skyrocketed in value beyond my love of them, or the lust for newer M issues that seemed to better fit my creative intent. Japanese collectors used to follow me around the camera shows with wads of hundred dollar bills vying against each other to get the classic deliberately slung over my shoulder as bait ... which had a sort of Pied Piper effect ;)

So, I really enjoy seeing "old friends" bolted to the MM, and the results coaxed from them by insightful photographers :thumbup:

However, my trek is still underway, and I've returned to the future by limiting my M work to B&W exclusively. I almost never shot color with a M prior to the M8, so the MM was exactly what the doctor ordered.

With the exception of my last gen M90/2.8, all my M optics are the newer ASPH designs: 21/1.4, 28/2, 35/1.4 (pre-FLE), 50/0.95, 75/2. For me, they have a consistency for a general body of current work, or across a single assignment when used commercially. I have opted to forego some of the most recent offerings which have taken on "rare collectable" pricing right from the get-go.

What the MM camera brought to the party was a fantastic democratic sort of rendering that allows older lenses to come to the forefront, or the newer lenses to be toned back if desired. One's PP skills being the only determining factor. I'm still learning the MM, and expect that to take much more time yet as I explore a variety of PP programs and techniques the MM files seem to respond well to. Damned thing is so democratic, that the creative choices it allows are mind boggling.

- Marc

Below is a one of my first Leica rangefinder shots ... "Romantic Rendezvous". A happy accident featuring my then 21 year old wife with a gentleman suddenly appearing on the steps as I went to shoot a more ordinary sort of environmental portrait. Ah, to be young and in Paris ...
 

D&A

Well-known member
Marc,

Extremely well put. With a few notable exceptions, I find a great deal of similarity and sameness between current Leica lens offerings and this creates a dilemma of sorts. On one hand this provides a consistency across the board as you mentioned, for assignments or projects. Yet on the other hand it's this sameness (in other words consistency in their look and near optical perfection compared to the classics), that at times brings a bit of boredom that doesn't quite get the creative juices flowing with certain ideas for capturing "a look", in what we envision for a scene or subject.

It's a double edge sword. Often we want our optics to be at the highest level with as few aberrations and imperfections in performance and at other times prefer a moderately strong optical signature and unique characteristics in how the lens captures and draws an image. No right or wrong of course, just simply personal opinion and this choice is often compounded as to what camera body the lens will be used on as much as the subject matter and intent and use of the image(s). MM, M9/M240, film M?

There's a lot that goes into a successful and interesting image and the lens choice in terms of old (classic) vs. current optical formulas is just one part of the equation.

Dave (D&A)
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
Marc,

Extremely well put. With a few notable exceptions, on one had I find a great deal of similarity and sameness between current Leica lens offerings and this creates a dilemma of sorts. On one had this provides a consistency across the board as you mentioned, for assignments or projects. Yet on the other hand it's this sameness (in other words consistency in their look and near optical perfection compared to the classics), that at times brings a bit of boredom and doesn't quite get the creative juices flowing with certain ideas for capturing an envisioned look for a scene or subject.

It's a double edge sword. Often we want our optics to be at the highest level with as few aberrations and imperfections in performance and at other times prefer a moderately strong optical signature and unique characteristics in how the lens captures and draws an image. No right or wrong of course, just simply personal opinion and of course this choice is often compounded as to what camera body the lens will be used on as much as the subject matter and intent and use of the image(s). MM, M9/M240, film M?

There's a lot that goes into a successful and interesting image and the lens choice in terms of old (classic) vs. current optical formulas is just one part of the equation.

Dave (D&A)
Understood Dave.

My POV is coming strictly from working with MM files, which are quite neutral ... making the files a sort of equal opportunity tonal palette. Post production software is so advanced now, and these files so malleable, that my philosophical attitude toward the lenses is: "I rather reign in a racehorse, than whip a mule."

Which is why I said it is somewhat dependent on skill sets in PP. I can make any lens take on a different look and feel, but prefer to start from a bit of a standardized performance base so each time I do PP I can apply the same alternative look to all of them.

However, I do get that lenses like the pre asph 35/1.4, 50/1.4, and M75/1.4 have a unique signature ... one that I experienced for many, many years. Now I am enjoying the M75/2AA a great deal ... nor do I necessarily deem the new optics sterile and devoid of character as has been suggested.

- Marc
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Great discussion regarding choice and creative freedom ......but whats the big deal with the rigid summicron 50 and the eight element 35 . Puts seem to indicate that they were both designed when black and white film was the primary medium .

But how are they better than the 50 /35 summicrons pre asph ? Is it just a flavor of the month or are the formulas better suited to the MONO ?
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Great discussion regarding choice and creative freedom ......but whats the big deal with the rigid summicron 50 and the eight element 35 . Puts seem to indicate that they were both designed when black and white film was the primary medium .

But how are they better than the 50 /35 summicrons pre asph ? Is it just a flavor of the month or are the formulas better suited to the MONO ?
I don't know. The performance is in what they render. To me, the only way to answer such questions is to try them out and learn them.

My vintage m lenses are the M-Rokkor 40/2 II, M-Rokkor 90/4, and Hektor 135/4.5. All three produce lovely results and are different from the modern Voigtländer 21, 28, 35, 40 and 50 mm lenses which comprise the rest of my kit. I'd like to add a Summaron 35/2.8 to the kit eventually as I tried one and like the way it renders.

G
 

jonoslack

Active member
Now I am enjoying the M75/2AA a great deal ... nor do I necessarily deem the new optics sterile and devoid of character as has been suggested.

- Marc
HI Marc
I like both yours and Dave's posts - this remark is interesting, as it's a further example of the kind of lens bandwagon I see on the internet.

Like you I really like this lens - to me it seems to have just the perfect balance between sharpness and gentleness, the roll-off is delicate and lovely.

Yet the common conventional wisdom on the internet is that it is 'sterile' (the very word you used).

all the best
 

asiafish

Member
For me the choice between the new high-speed aspherical and older and/or simpler lenses is an easy one. I just can't devote the many thousands of dollars (especially after buying the MM) to afford such a collection.

So with budgetary limitations in mind, I've tried to build an assortment that provides the look I'm after at a price I can afford, with obvious limitations at the wide end for narrow depth of field as I just cannot budget a 24 or 28 Lux.

My lenses were all purchased used (many here on the forum) as were my MM and M8.2. For consistency in a single shoot, I use the modern Summarits of which I own the 35, 75 and 90 and will add the 50 soon. For a more vintage look I have an excellent Jupiter 3 rebuilt and tuned by Brian Sweeney. For ultimate sharpness I will likely save for a 50 Lux Asph, but that will take some time. For travel on the MM and on the M8.2 for general use I have the Elmarit-M 28 Asph.

Currently the 35 and 75 Summarits are what tend to go out the door with me every morning.
 

D&A

Well-known member
HI Marc
I like both yours and Dave's posts - this remark is interesting, as it's a further example of the kind of lens bandwagon I see on the internet.

Like you I really like this lens - to me it seems to have just the perfect balance between sharpness and gentleness, the roll-off is delicate and lovely.

Yet the common conventional wisdom on the internet is that it is 'sterile' (the very word you used).

all the best
What's interesting about your statement Jono, especially with regards to your description of the 75mm cron.....is that it's very much akin to the current 28mm cron apsh. That too is a modern designed lens but using your exact words for the 75mm cron, the 28mm cron asph has a lovely balance between sharpness and gentleness where the roll off is delicate and sterile. This is in stark contrast to lenses such as the 35mm Lux asph FLE, in my opinion.

Dave (D&A)
 
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Chuck Jones

Subscriber Member
I hope I didn t create any confusion ..but I want a flat linear file with a wide dynamic range . This allows me the maximum opportunity to map the tones as I see fit with each photograph . This does not mean that I want lenses that are lacking in micro contrast but rather that strong edge sharpness (macro contrast) isn t a real priority .
Roger, very interesting. I want exactly the same thing in my RAW files. Give me a flat, dull looking file with as wide a dynamic range as possible, so I have the maximum information to do my post processing with.

Give me excellent micro contrast, and restrained macro contrast. You asked what the fascination is with the early 35mm 'Crons, this is it my opinion. Wide open, they are one of the best examples of this type of lens I have ever seen. The worst example of macro contrast in the Leica lineup would be the 90mm APO ASPH. I never liked the look of that lens, though it is sharp as a razor. It is what I would call "sterile" or sole-less, certainly not the 75 'Cron.

The 75mm 'Cron and the 28mm 'Cron both have a very similar drawing signature, excellent micro contrast and reasonable macro contrast that doesn't go too far over the top. I call them nicely balanced, despite both being ASPH designs. So I guess I split down the middle. Old design, new design, it doesn't really matter and always is a matter of personal preference. To me, if it is a pretty lens I really don't care where it came from, what name is on the front of it, who made it, or when. All I care about is how the image files look up on my or my clients websites and how the images look printed. Whatever gets me to pretty is all just fine by my book.

I've got to spend some serious time with that MM, though I have been a color photographer for so many years now I am not even sure I remember how to see in B&W. You guys here are ALL horrible influences. Besides, shame on all of you. Didn't you know it is against the law to discriminate when hiring a lens due to age, race, sex, or national origin? Or does that only apply to Ashwin and others like him when hiring twenty or more? :D
 

jubbaa

Member
I guess I am guilty charged as part of the internet chatterati :confused::lecture:

I may have a few pictures to express my opinion better than can words... I will keep my mouth shut from here on out....and let my images do the talking, for better or for worse...







Ashwin

Quick question : are you generally still post processing your MM files in the same manner you described in a post over at Steve Huffs website?

James
 
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