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M or A7r

VINCET

Member
I have a Sony A7r on preorder with Amazon and is wondering how many people are going to try to switch from a Leica M to a Sony A7/r? I did not like the M 240 as much as the M9 but eventually got used to it and feel comfortable. I like the RF in the M more than the M9. The ability to use EVF is great as it opens endless possibilities with different type of lenses. So with the Sony, the only thing I will be missing is the RF, the simplicity of a Leica M body and possibly the nice shutter sound. However, Sony does have a much better EVF, seems to have great sensor and produce awesome IQ. It also has the option of AF. I wonder if I will get used to the menu of the Sony. But at a fraction of the cost, I decided to dump the M body first, switch over the Sony and when the M body finally dropped in price, maybe go back to it. Anyone else switching?
 
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Vivek

Guest
I am not sure of many of your reasoning. If M body drops in price in the future, so will the A7R but much more dramatically. One of the reasons general public is disgusted with the Leica name is not the Hermes or white elephant versions but this non chalent "fraction of a cost" talk. The A7R is a lot of money for a lot of people.

It is quite likely most of the M lenses will not be stellar (at least not for the price) on the A7R as well. As a result, their prices are going to go down dramatically. Check ebay.de to get an idea of where the prices are heading.
 

Amin

Active member
I decided to take a chance. Sold my M9 and ordered A7R. I know it won't be as enjoyable to use as my M9, but I expect the sensor performance to make the swap worthwhile to me. I also expect that my two M mount lenses (35mm f/2 Biogon and 50mm f/1.5 Nokton) will perform well on the A7R sensor. If the Sony is unsatisfying, I expect that I'll be able to find another used M9 to buy. Or perhaps the new M.
 

Knorp

Well-known member
Ordered an A7r but keeping my lovely chrome M9-P.
For some reason the M left me cold right from the beginning.
Perhaps the next M iteration kindles a spark again ...

For now I'm very exited about the A7r :clap:

Kind regards.
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
Well, I ordered an M over a year ago. I could now get it any time I want.
However, I cooled considerably due to its many QA problems.
So I am keeping my M9 for good. I seem to be buying but never selling.
Of course, I give photo gear to my kids once I haven't used it in awhile.
I really like my D800E and its 36 MP FF sensor.
I ordered the A7R primarily for my Leica R lenses.
However, I wouldn't be disappointed if some of my M lenses including the WATE worked well on the A7R. :D
 

mmbma

Active member
glad I never upgraded to the M. but I think you are making a hasty decision. You won't know how your Leica lenses do on the A7r. I doubt they will be as good as the native sony lenses. I might get the A7r as a color back up to my Monochrom, but never instead of it.

Just buy it and try both, and write a review for us. You'll be able to sell either one with minimum loss in the first few weeks anyway
 

mmbma

Active member
Well, I ordered an M over a year ago. I could now get it any time I want.
However, I cooled considerably due to its many QA problems.
So I am keeping my M9 for good. I seem to be buying but never selling.
Of course, I give photo gear to my kids once I haven't used it in awhile.
I really like my D800E and its 36 MP FF sensor.
I ordered the A7R primarily for my Leica R lenses.
However, I wouldn't be disappointed if some of my M lenses including the WATE worked well on the A7R. :D
hmm... 800E and M9? your kids are LUCKY
 

250swb

Member
I think it is far to early to say whether it will be the A7 or A7R that will work best with the normal WA Leica RF lenses that most people use.

Yes there are reports that the WATE works well on the A7R, but that isn't a 'normal' lens. And in the very few tests done with normal wide's, like the 35or 28mm Summicron, the results aren't spectacular, but equally nobody knows if it's the photographer that isn't 'spectacular'.

I'm not in a chase for megapixels, just something to replace my M9 for colour work (my MM is still my baby). But I definitely am not guessing at this stage, I want to see a trusted tester show me what happens with both the A7 and A7R with the lenses I use. My sense at the moment is that the A7R may be disappointing, but the game isn't over by a long way.

Steve
 

jaapv

Subscriber Member
The M is a very solid camera of superb build. The number of quality complaints threads we had in the forums after introduction were a fraction of the ones we had over the M8 and M9 and are at the same level or less than the complaints threads after introduction we see in the Canon, Nikon, Sony forums.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
In my case I have not much interest in the A7.
I have used a Nex7 for some time and some other mirror less EVF cameras and I just prefer the rangefinder/optical viewfinder.(by the way thats also the reason why I barely use the vf2 on my Leica M)
As sonn as one focuses manual mid range focal lengths the rangefinder is the best system for me because you can see the whole frame and still you can focus at the same time.
The next thing is that I like the user interface of the M (or M9) a lot.
And the third thing is that I have all those beautiful lenses where I know they work well on the M.
If one prefers EVF the Sony is maybe an interesting option, and of course price would also be an argument for the Sony. (this could already look different if you look how cameras and lenses hold their value).
If I were you I would go to a store and handle both for 2 hours and see which user interface and viewfinder concept you prefer.
M9 vs M…you could also just sell the M and get a used M9.
Personally I feel the same about M9 vs M but I think I will get used to the M and find out how to treat images in post. I like the speed, high ISO, shutter of the new M.
 
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Vivek

Guest
The M is a very solid camera of superb build. The number of quality complaints threads we had in the forums after introduction were a fraction of the ones we had over the M8 and M9 and are at the same level or less than the complaints threads after introduction we see in the Canon, Nikon, Sony forums.
There could be a few reasons:

1. The M isn't available (see K-H's post). :D

2. FWIW, my A7R is going to come with a 30 day money back guarantee and a free 3 year service package. It is a pretty sweet for me.

Having said that, if I could afford and sustain a M system with a set of atrociously priced modern M lenses, I would not think about A7/7R. It is the shutter that would make the decision for me.

Also, like K-H, I do not sell stuff easily. For a M user that is simply not tenable.
 

JohnBrew

Active member
If my experience with an NEX-7 is any indication (and it probably isn't) of how Leica glass will perform on the A7r the 50's & 75's will be excellent. My Zeiss 21 (F mount) was the only WA I could depend on and the crop frame sensor most likely had something to do with it.
I would imagine either Lloyd Chambers or Reid Reviews will be first to have Leica M lenses tests on the A7r online. Both men are very thorough.
 
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k-hawinkler

Well-known member
I am not interested at all in the A7 but very much so in the 36 MP of the A7R.
A couple months ago my oldest son was visiting with the 12 MP Nikon D3 he now has.
That used to be my favorite "Pro" level DSLR camera with excellent high ISO performance.
It handles beautifully and shoots up to 10, even 11 frames per second.
We used the new Nikkor 80-400 lens on the D3 and D800E to take photos of hummingbirds.
That was indeed a revelation in terms of the level of detail a 36 MP sensor offers!

A few days ago I shot some WA images with the D800E + 14-24/2.8 and 17-35/2.8 lens.
I also shot the same scene with the 18 MP M9 + WATE 16-18-21/4.
The WATE seems to be the somewhat better lens, especially in the extreme corners.
However, after processing the raw images with CS6 and Nik the greater level of detail of the 36 MP sensor is quite attractive.
So, provided the WATE performs well on the A7R, I finally could get 36 MP images with it.

As stated before, the main reason for me to get the A7R are my Leica R lenses.
So far I have been only shooting them on NEXs and OM-Ds, E-M5 and E-M1.
I am really looking forward to find out how they perform on a FF camera.
Of course, one could leitax them and shoot on the D800E.
But that would create complications when using the R lenses with extenders.
I don't want to do that. With the A7R they can be used with simple adapters.
Originally I wanted to get an M240 for use with the R lenses as well.
However, the M240 doesn't seem to have left the beta testing stage yet.
Its EVF performance is also less than ideal.
So, I will give the A7R the preference for now.

Having gone with my M9 through lots of trouble before a Panasonic Gold card turned it into a useable camera I am really not interested to become again an involuntary beta tester for Leica with an M240.
 

woodleica

Member
I'm not sure where this megapixel and technology race will end. It is tiresome for me as a consumer to try and keep up with the race. With the D800e and M sensors I already have a set of tools that far surpass anything I've every owned before or even dreamed of owning 5-10 years back - near medium format in smaller bodies and in something like the M it's miraculous if one stops to think about it. I think I will stop and breathe for a while and just enjoy photography and not worry about where the world is hurtling towards.

Yes, the A7R is miraculous too in its own way, but the only reason to have an M is for the rangefinder experience. Mirror-less is a wave that's going to continue. I for one, love my M and am keeping it. For me in a sea of change it's a relative anchor. If you bought an M9 early and used it then ~4k to trade it in is not bad at all. Having said all that, I may get another small body as a backup and autofocus solution, not to use my M lenses with necessarily.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
After thinking about this a while, I don't see the A7 or A7r so much as a vehicle to use my M-mount lenses with as a good platform for my Nikkor and Leica R lenses. I feel m-mount lenses work best on sensors/cameras designed specifically for them.

Only reason I haven't ordered one yet is that I just recently got the Olympus E-M1 and am enjoying it too much to have time for another camera just yet. Give it half a year (and selling off a few thousand dollars of other gear) and I'll likely add one to my kit. :)

G
 

algrove

Well-known member
For me this is a sad post as you will read below.

I echo much of what K-H has recently written. However I am not into Nikon as I have a 5D3 for auto sports work and other fast moving AF work.

I will try the a7r due to its 36MP and like many here want to see which WA RF lenses work. I know what a high MP count can do for DR as I often use an old Hasselblad SWC with a newish P45+ digital back for landscape capture and is all I can say is WOW. It often gives me that old Kodachrome look to digital images where you can almost see the different emulsions on the surface of the print like you could see while "emulsion peeping" with a Kodachrome slide.

More importantly, I will also try the a7r for use with my many R lenses due to the fact that I do not find it tenable to have to switch off my M's while using EVF since it will lockup from over heating if I left on. That's way beyond beta testing as beta testing should come after this serious defect is remedied. It just does not work for me.

Who ever gave approval to final release of this camera, in its current state, should be fired. Since Blackstone's involvement in Leica two products have tarnished the Leica name in my mind-the M240 and the APO50, both of which I own in multiple copies. Perhaps they will correct both products to the satisfaction of most, but Leica it is too little too late. What have they been doing for 3 years while time marches on and competition leap frogs them big time?

Also, even with wide RF lenses I often use the EVF and the same over heating issue arises plus for street if the camera is shut off then the startup time causes me to miss way too many "in the moment" shots for an M model which has its roots with street and journalistic work.

Since I use EVF with R lenses routinely, I say why not see if another (way less expensive) camera with even higher MP performs better than my M's.

While waiting way too long for my first M to arrive I got the RX-1. My first non-Leica for street. Someone on this site helped with the initial setup, which I configured once and have never felt the need to change it again. What a revelation for me to the detriment of Leica.

Thus, already seeing the benefit of AF in a small RX-1 body which never overheats while leaving the EVF on it and having it continually powered up, I can see very little downside in trying out the a7r for my needs. In addition, the a7r continues with the ultra-sonic help for sensor cleaning which Sony incorporated in the small RX-1, all while Leica said they could not do it due the small size of the M240. What a revelation for me to the detriment of Leica.

For me it is sad to see what Leica makes us deal with and I never thought I would think that. My M9P has finally come back from Leica NJ this week under its last warranty visit with a new skin and many interior changes they deemed necessary. I feel that I have moved past my beloved M9P and since I have a beautiful CCD sensor in my P45+, I now feel no need to keep it any longer.

If in the end I migrate to Sony I will keep my Monochrom as I love B&W which harkens back to the days when I began serious photography, nearly 50 years ago. Times have changed over the years, but it still is the photographer who should control the situation and with every modern camera I have found a way to configure them for that to be the case with my 5D3, SWC+P45+, RX-1, M9P and Monochrom, but sadly the M240 takes me a step backward with its current drawbacks where the camera is now too often controlling the situation and not me.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
For me this is a sad post as you will read below.

I echo much of what K-H has recently written. However I am not into Nikon as I have a 5D3 for auto sports work and other fast moving AF work.

I will try the a7r due to its 36MP and like many here want to see which WA RF lenses work. I know what a high MP count can do for DR as I often use an old Hasselblad SWC with a newish P45+ digital back for landscape capture and is all I can say is WOW. It often gives me that old Kodachrome look to digital images where you can almost see the different emulsions on the surface of the print like you could see while "emulsion peeping" with a Kodachrome slide.

More importantly, I will also try the a7r for use with my many R lenses due to the fact that I do not find it tenable to have to switch off my M's while using EVF since it will lockup from over heating if I left on. That's way beyond beta testing as beta testing should come after this serious defect is remedied. It just does not work for me.

Who ever gave approval to final release of this camera, in its current state, should be fired. Since Blackstone's involvement in Leica two products have tarnished the Leica name in my mind-the M240 and the APO50, both of which I own in multiple copies. Perhaps they will correct both products to the satisfaction of most, but Leica it is too little too late. What have they been doing for 3 years while time marches on and competition leap frogs them big time?

Also, even with wide RF lenses I often use the EVF and the same over heating issue arises plus for street if the camera is shut off then the startup time causes me to miss way too many "in the moment" shots for an M model which has its roots with street and journalistic work.

Since I use EVF with R lenses routinely, I say why not see if another (way less expensive) camera with even higher MP performs better than my M's.

While waiting way too long for my first M to arrive I got the RX-1. My first non-Leica for street. Someone on this site helped with the initial setup, which I configured once and have never felt the need to change it again. What a revelation for me to the detriment of Leica.

Thus, already seeing the benefit of AF in a small RX-1 body which never overheats while leaving the EVF on it and having it continually powered up, I can see very little downside in trying out the a7r for my needs. In addition, the a7r continues with the ultra-sonic help for sensor cleaning which Sony incorporated in the small RX-1, all while Leica said they could not do it due the small size of the M240. What a revelation for me to the detriment of Leica.

For me it is sad to see what Leica makes us deal with and I never thought I would think that. My M9P has finally come back from Leica NJ this week under its last warranty visit with a new skin and many interior changes they deemed necessary. I feel that I have moved past my beloved M9P and since I have a beautiful CCD sensor in my P45+, I now feel no need to keep it any longer.

If in the end I migrate to Sony I will keep my Monochrom as I love B&W which harkens back to the days when I began serious photography, nearly 50 years ago. Times have changed over the years, but it still is the photographer who should control the situation and with every modern camera I have found a way to configure them for that to be the case with my 5D3, SWC+P45+, RX-1, M9P and Monochrom, but sadly the M240 takes me a step backward with its current drawbacks where the camera is now too often controlling the situation and not me.
Pretty sad post indeed.

Lou, If an A7 or A7R monochrome is available, would you give up your MM?
 
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