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Thread: Leica Acquires Sinar

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    Leica Acquires Sinar

    Whoa, this is some big news...

    Leica Camera AG Gobbles Up Sinar

    The implications are far-ranging and should be quite interesting.
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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Whoa, indeed! Loved your graphic!
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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Hehe, thanks Vivek! It was Thanksgiving (and obviously Pac Man) inspired.

    Man, this is huge.

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    If they play it right, they might become a really big player in photography - exciting times

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Fascinating. It will be interesting to see where this leads. :-)

    G

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Thanks for that - interesting indeed!

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Very interesting purchase and well out of character for Leica, which has a history of spinning off their divisions--Leica GeoSystems and Leica MicroSystems are not part of Leica or either each other. Leica and Sinar have a very different set of customers as well.

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Now Leica can offer a whole range of high-end solutions, not just the S-System.

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Fascinating. It will be interesting to see where this leads. :-)

    G
    More G.A.S. ...
    Bart ...

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    More G.A.S. ...
    Hope you can back it up with your wallet!

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    That's going to be the hard part!

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post
    Now Leica can offer a whole range of high-end solutions, not just the S-System.
    I am not sure there will be rebranding nor cross-branding strategies. They may have Sinar simply run their business.

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I am not sure there will be rebranding nor cross-branding strategies. They may have Sinar simply run their business.
    True, it isn't clear from the press release. It seems there will remain two entities:

    ...Marketing, product management, support, development and production will remain in the hands of Sinar in Switzerland. Sales and distribution of the product portfolio will be handled by Leica Camera AG and the worldwide dealer network of Sinar Photography AG...

    But Leica give up an opportunity for branding? Hmmm...

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Hope they got a good price on the deal, the tech camera, high end digital back market is not a growth proposition.
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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Low volume ,high margin specialty products . Manufacturing was spun off into an employee owned business(not part of Sinar Photography) . Get ready for Leica s line of large format lenses. Probably sold thru existing Sinar channels with pull thru of the Leica S line .

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Roger,
    Leica can't even produce enough lenses for the S at present, how can they take on more capacity with a new line?

    I think they are buying the patents and not interested in the products.
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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Sigh...all the money they are spending on Sinar could have gone into development, production and marketing of a digital R10.

    Although, as the owner of two Sinar view cameras.....I'm happy for Sinar.

    Gary
    Last edited by bensonga; 26th November 2013 at 16:19.

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    From the sound of it, they're keeping Sinar's production, etc. So this wouldn't affect (core) Leica production. The move to Wetzlar's Leitz Park should come early next year, so at least the end is (hopefully) in sight...

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Quote Originally Posted by atanabe View Post
    Roger,
    Leica can't even produce enough lenses for the S at present, how can they take on more capacity with a new line?

    I think they are buying the patents and not interested in the products.
    Next year when the new factory opens . They are one of the few remaining businesses that can produce very high spec lenses in low quantities . So similar to the Cinema sets and these would play right to their strengths ..optics and precision manufacturing ...no electronics required .

    They have wanted Sinar since 2009 ..so they have something in mind . They will have a new uber factory to load by this time next year ...it has to be low volume high priced custom products . And they didn t get the Sinar production facility thats in another company owned by former employees. They also didn t get the digital electronic business which went into Jenoptik.

    The question they will be asking is ..."what can we make they fits our core strengths .....and can generate large margins " . Cinema sets are a good example .

    But you could be correct in that they wanted the R&D /patents etc ..I m just guessing .
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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Sigh...all the money they are spending on Sinar could have gone into development, production and marketing of a digital R10.

    Although, as the owner of two Sinar view cameras.....I'm happy for Sinar.

    Gary
    Leica seems to be allergic to two-digit numbers

    This is very good news indeed, particularly for those of us aiming to buy Sinar gear (I currently have neither Sinar nor Leica). I'm sure there will be synergies that will strengthen both parties and that there will be interesting new products as a result. Now, where did I hide that pallet of banknotes....

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Quote Originally Posted by atanabe View Post
    Roger,
    Leica can't even produce enough lenses for the S at present, how can they take on more capacity with a new line?

    I think they are buying the patents and not interested in the products.
    I've used Leicas since 1968 and there's always been a shortage. That's how they keep prices high.

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Quote Originally Posted by atanabe View Post
    Roger,
    Leica can't even produce enough lenses for the S at present, how can they take on more capacity with a new line?

    I think they are buying the patents and not interested in the products.
    Maybe they can use Sinar production resources for Leica lens production

    Seriously its good to know Sinar in good hands but then I would prefer if they were standing independent. I am afraid a bit Leica will make the products more from a working product to a luxury product.

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Next year when the new factory opens . They are one of the few remaining businesses that can produce very high spec lenses in low quantities . So similar to the Cinema sets and these would play right to their strengths ..optics and precision manufacturing ...no electronics required .

    They have wanted Sinar since 2009 ..so they have something in mind . They will have a new uber factory to load by this time next year ...it has to be low volume high priced custom products . And they didn t get the Sinar production facility thats in another company owned by former employees. They also didn t get the digital electronic business which went into Jenoptik.

    The question they will be asking is ..."what can we make they fits our core strengths .....and can generate large margins " . Cinema sets are a good example .

    But you could be correct in that they wanted the R&D /patents etc ..I m just guessing .
    Roger, not to take anything away from what you wrote here, but Leica tried to buy Sinar & even announced the purchase back in 2006 at Photokina. Here is my story and take on it all:

    Leica Buys Sinar! | The Camera Forum

    Now, we have products already in production, patents, designs, and one of the best MF camera systems ever developed…. all bought by a company that designs and builds the best low volume production lenses in the world. Could we possibly see a resurgence of the Sinar Hy6? This time from a company with the muscle to make it stick, and the lens prowess to truly make it shine? I say it is absolutely a possibility. I can also tell you for a fact, I was at that Photokina listening to what Leica was saying and asking their brand managers questions. Everyone was a big fan of the Hy6. Think the S system changed any of that?

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    Roger, not to take anything away from what you wrote here, but Leica tried to buy Sinar & even announced the purchase back in 2006 at Photokina. Here is my story and take on it all:

    Leica Buys Sinar! | The Camera Forum

    Now, we have products already in production, patents, designs, and one of the best MF camera systems ever developed…. all bought by a company that designs and builds the best low volume production lenses in the world. Could we possibly see a resurgence of the Sinar Hy6? This time from a company with the muscle to make it stick, and the lens prowess to truly make it shine? I say it is absolutely a possibility. I can also tell you for a fact, I was at that Photokina listening to what Leica was saying and asking their brand managers questions. Everyone was a big fan of the Hy6. Think the S system changed any of that?
    Very interesting perspective . One of the challenges Leica has with the S2/S is coming up with a new camera . Personally I think the lenses are there ...exceptionally expensive but they have the lenses 24-180 . So whats next ...transition to CMOS and they will have a major R&D effort to amortize over a low volume camera . Stick with CCD and increase the MPs at the expensive of high ISO performance ?

    How will the Sinar acquisition affect the S product line ???

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Very interesting perspective . One of the challenges Leica has with the S2/S is coming up with a new camera . Personally I think the lenses are there ...exceptionally expensive but they have the lenses 24-180 . So whats next ...transition to CMOS and they will have a major R&D effort to amortize over a low volume camera . Stick with CCD and increase the MPs at the expensive of high ISO performance ?

    How will the Sinar acquisition affect the S product line ???
    Whats wrong with the current S body?

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Whats wrong with the current S body?
    There's nothing wrong with the S body, but that's a traditional SLR while the Hy6 is a modular body. It can even be used for film

    Two different worlds if you ask me.

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Whats wrong with the current S body?
    Price/performance ..the current S and the whole system is the best I ve ever used . But ....as it ages the "performance margin" is getting smaller . The D800E with the OTUS is very very close at 1/3rd the cost . If Nikon and Canon introduce 50-60MP Pro bodies in 2014 ?

    Don t need more than 40MPS ? The trend is to use the extra MPs to down sample your files ....a D800E file down sample to 16mps has high ISO performance similar to a D4/Df .

    I would "speculate" that Leica would also like to get away from the CCD sensors and make the transition to CMOS from their new supplier ...maintaining two sets of firmware (S and M) is expensive .

    Personally I would love to see a 60MP Dalsa CCD sensor in the next generation S .

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Price/performance ..the current S and the whole system is the best I ve ever used . But ....as it ages the "performance margin" is getting smaller . The D800E with the OTUS is very very close at 1/3rd the cost . If Nikon and Canon introduce 50-60MP Pro bodies in 2014 ?

    Don t need more than 40MPS ? The trend is to use the extra MPs to down sample your files ....a D800E file down sample to 16mps has high ISO performance similar to a D4/Df .

    I would "speculate" that Leica would also like to get away from the CCD sensors and make the transition to CMOS from their new supplier ...maintaining two sets of firmware (S and M) is expensive .

    Personally I would love to see a 60MP Dalsa CCD sensor in the next generation S .
    Roger,I think the Leaf shutters and huge viewfinder will keep the S system ahead of any Canikon 35mm system,and S colour is still superior imho.. (I have a D800E and an S) plus sensor real estate and glass IQ is a big bonus,the Otus is great but no CS and no A.F limits its appeal,

    +1 for a dalsa sensor with 13stops

    Rob

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Very interesting perspective . One of the challenges Leica has with the S2/S is coming up with a new camera . Personally I think the lenses are there ...exceptionally expensive but they have the lenses 24-180 . So whats next ...transition to CMOS and they will have a major R&D effort to amortize over a low volume camera . Stick with CCD and increase the MPs at the expensive of high ISO performance ?

    How will the Sinar acquisition affect the S product line ???
    Of course, everything we are all guessing about in this thread is for the most part, pure speculation. Leica themselves are somewhat cryptic at the best of times about their intentions

    That said, at the launch of the original S system, the word from the product management and marketing folks was that there was to be several cameras in at least three different models that were to be derived from the S. Remember too though, at that time we were still keeping our R glass on the promise of the R10 that never showed up.

    The truth is, times change, plans change, and so does the marketplace. What I do find interesting is that Leica buys Sinar right at the same time that Nikon corporate stock is trading down almost 24% for this year. Folks, the camera business is not all that healthy, so you can not expect to see any of these companies invest the R&D necessary to meet the new camera models of just a few years ago. The word I am hearing from pretty near everyone is most major new future projects have been delayed at best, and shelved indefinitely at the worst.

    Save for one. Sony is absolutely on fire, looking to be a very popular camera seller this next year. Sony now have a pretty amazing lineup of products.

    Leica also have now added to their high end camera offerings with the present Sinar line. These ail make fine additions to the new Leica corporate stores. I can already see in my head a fully optioned P3 sitting on wooden sticks right inside the entryway here in the Hollywood store. Right there where they had that big silver camera before… heck, maybe they will silver plate a limited edition?

    But for me, I agree with Roger. Leica has done ok with the S system, but lets face facts. The 2,000 cameras produced per year are not that many in the face of the numbers of cameras a Nikon or Canon produce in a week. They aren't even that significant a number to bother Phase One/Leaf, or so they say. But those are exactly the kinds of numbers that a new effort behind the Hy6 could easily deliver with a Leica behind it. My bet though, is they continue to brand it a Sinar as well.

    A new digital Hy6 would be a high dollar luxury item, using high dollar glass costing thousands of dollars per lens, a fanatical dedicated following of brave photographers already using a Hy6 (and loving it), and finally the type of modular system the Hy6 is would be very complementary to the present S setup. Phase One may say they aren't worried by Leica, but to my old eyes right about now they certainly should be. Since gobbling up Leaf, Phase has had that MF playground mostly to themselves. Leica now powered by that Private Equity group financing is far more formidable a competitor than stumbling Hasselblad flummoxing around with their Lunar thing.

    S camera bodies are one thing, but those expensive $7k+ lenses are where Leica makes the real money. Those fancy lenses looked at as components are mostly metal ore and sand. Literally, cheap dirt! Leica still casts their own glass from scratch, so are manufacturing from raw metals & sand, clear to finished consumer goods. Offering a Hy6 derivative would I think be a very welcome addition to the Leica line for the lens profits alone.

    I doubt it will be long before we see what ideas Leica has for Sinar, and whether or not there is any truth at all in my speculations about the Hy6 Phoenix. The Hy6 is an excellent camera design that died an ugly death due to owners who did not have sufficient funds to develop & promote it properly after Sinar's deep pocket majority owner Jenoptik decided to withdraw from the digital back market completely.

    Given what it takes in financial resources to properly design a new Medium Format camera system, and given how good the Hy6 is, I fully expect that sooner or later another of the three who now own the rights to produce the Hy6/AFi eventually will once again.

    What could be interesting is if Canon, who I understand now owns the rights and tooling to produce the Contax 645 Medium Format system, and are widely rumored to be readying a MF segment offering, does release an updated Contax just as Leica decides to relaunch a Hy6 derivative.

    That should give us endless more threads just like this one to enjoy speculating about!

    Oh and I too would love to see a 60MP Dalsa CCD sensor with 13 stops of dynamic range in the next generation S. Please add my name to that list!
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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Since Hassy ditched the V, I'd be all for a fresh Hy6.

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    Is anyone here still using a Hy6? I recall reading some fairly negative comments re the controls and ergonomics of the Hy6. Just wondering what any actual users (past or present) think about the camera.

    If I could afford a Leica S with 3-4 lens....now that's a dream kit.

    Gary

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    Re: Leica Acquires Sinar

    I could see the ergonomics not being to everyone's liking - much like the V. But I suppose you can't have everything with such a modular approach - and I think that's really the biggest benefit here. While I don't have any experience with the Hy6, I do enjoy my 503CWD tremendously. It bolts together to do whatever I need, and is what it is.

    Would be interesting to see the Hy6 with an S mount (or adapter)... Though I think that's just a dream.

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