Interesting article for Leica fans

[peterb]

Came across this experience of a using Leitz glass on a Sony A7r vs Leitz on an M.

Enjoy!

Review: using Leica M lenses on the 36MP Sony A7r mirrorless camera | Leica News & Rumors

 

[turtle]

Its a decent article, but has a characteristic Leica-centric angle when evaluating the A7/A7R system in general terms. I'm not remotely buying his high ISO triumph for Leica. Additionally, once in post, the Sony files are astonishing. But as always, people will see what they want to see.

He mentions the heavy and bulky Zeiss lenses, which is also untrue on the weight front. Even casual comparison of weight specs reveals the Zeiss lenses to be comparable or lighter. The 35 Sonnar FE is light as a feather - lighter than ANY Leica M lens and the 55 1.8 is in the same ballpark as the 50 lux asph, with 1/2 a stop given up in return for AF.

Back on the central topic, I agree: Leica lenses perform better on Leica cameras than Sony cameras (which is no surprise). If you shoot in B&W, though, it gets much closer.

 

[NB23]

The truth is Leica is just a status. Or like wine: Always some neologisms, exotic tems to describe the invisible.

 

[PeterA]

The truth is Leica is just a status. Or like wine: Always some neologisms, exotic tems to describe the invisible.

I'll slit my wrists now.:ROTFL:

 

[Jack]

I had a chance to use Guy's A7 and A7r with a wide selection of M glass (thanks to Woody) on our Yosemite workshop last week. My net take is this: Leica should be 1) worried about it's own body sales and 2) grateful for the bump in sales of M glass it is likely to see because of the A7. I personally exited the M system because my failing eyes -- stigmatism -- could not reliably crisp the RF any more and that led to an unacceptable percentage of focus misses. The focus peaking on the A7 is a dream for MF lenses of any sort, and works well.

A7 or A7r? Simple answer is the A7 is the better choice IMHO for regular use as a replacement to the Leica body -- quieter and more responsive shutter than the A7r and less optical anomalies with short lenses than the A7r; Woody's 18 SEM worked perfectly well on the A7. Add that compared to Leica M bodies it is inexpensive enough you can afford to dedicate and tune a body to each M lens you own, no more concerns about dust or cam settings when you grab a favorite lens...

Real question is am I tempted? Admittedly yes... I'm just not motivated to re-invest in M glass for a 4th term. But I can see the wonderful possibilities of an 18 SEM, 28 Cron, 50 Lux (just LOVE the look, but could possibly be swayed to move to the Cron Asph) and maybe a 75 Cron or 90 Elmarit with a pair of A7's as a really svelt street and travel kit.

Nit. EVF's are not as great as the real-time M finder window. But IMHO the exactness and ease of focus peaking more than makes up for it -- YMMV.

PS: The A7's also show the extreme difficulty in using a Noct. Even with focus peaking insuring perfect focus, it's clear that at relative people distances one cannot hold themselves steady enough to stay within the half-mm of exact PoF. Sure, you can stop down to f2 and have enough extra DoF to be fine, but then why pay the 3x premium for f0.95?

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Let me add here although love to hook up some M lenses to my A 7and A7r system as I think the Sony is far better as a body but the cost of entry is just too large now. The Sony brings a serious option to Leica M users . In the old days I would love to have had the Sony around but buying back in is not a option and there are very viable options in other brands and mounts that may not have been around before. Sorry Leica fans but I would think long and hard. After trying about 10 lenses on the Sony it really is a tough call on a M240.

 

[peterv]

Guy, did you have time yet to test the S? I think back in october/november you mentioned Leica was going to lend you one for field testing?

 

[airfrogusmc]

I far prefer a rangefinder. Nice to have choices. I'm hoping Leica comes out with an M-E with the new sensor. Mostly manual body, no video, low or no FPS, little to no automation.

I hope Leica is reading this. And I know I am not alone.

Love my MM btw....

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I barely used it but some participants did . The 30-90 in my mind is the main reason to jump in. That is one awesome lens.

I just did not get enough time to really test it.

 

[jonoslack]

Let me add here although love to hook up some M lenses to my A 7and A7r system as I think the Sony is far better as a body but the cost of entry is just too large now. The Sony brings a serious option to Leica M users . In the old days I would love to have had the Sony around but buying back in is not a option and there are very viable options in other brands and mounts that may not have been around before. Sorry Leica fans but I would think long and hard. After trying about 10 lenses on the Sony it really is a tough call on a M240.

Hi there Guy
That's why I bought the A7r, I tested with

WATE, 24 elmar, 28 ' cron Asph, 35 FLE, 50 Lux, .95 Noctilux, 75'cron, 90 elmarit M and 135 APO Telyt.

There were smeary corners with lenses wider than 50mm (except the WATE which was fine), together with some tricky (but usually correctable) colour shifts. The 28 ' cron in particular is unusable (IMHO)

I now have an A7, which does better, but (again IMHO) doesn't produce as good results as the M240 with ANY of the lenses.

I really like the A7, and if Sony can tame the shutter of the A7r with firmware I'll get another one (otherwise I'll wait for the A8), but I've learned my lesson, I'll stick to using these great cameras with native lenses and SLR lenses with adapters. I just don't think they cut it with 3rd party rangefinder lenses.

I also find it odd to be considering an M body as an alternative to an A7, the mode of operation is so radically different. If you like using an EVF why would you buy an M now the A7 is here? If you like using a rangefinder then the M240 is the only act in town. Personally I like both (for different things).

All the best

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I guess given some comments its time to think out of the box. I won't mention names but comments like I m selling my S system keep my M glass and get a couple Sonys gives a pause to me. Someone and others are digesting this whole mix and match scenario and I think folks should. Now this may not be the model and next gen on the Sony maybe better but I did this thinking against my Nikons and yes I am crazy but I am pretty calculating switching on systems and pulled the trigger. So far it's been a good decision and folks need to think long and hard on the choices which thank god we have. I like options but I agree if you have a fix on rangefinder style than Leica owns that market but Sony is looking to own mirrorless and put a smack down on DSLR and that's very compelling.

 

[peterv]

The 30-90 in my mind is the main reason to jump in. That is one awesome lens.

Hi Guy, could you please elaborate a bit on your findings with this lens? I bought into the S system last year and I'm seriously thinking about this zoom because of it's versatility.

I value your opinion and would like to hear your thoughts.

 

[KeithL]

I bought into Leica expecting to at best tolerate the rangefinder safe in the knowledge that with the M I also had liveview on LCD and EVF. The reality was I fell in love with a rangefinder.

Wides in the range 18mm to 24mm are very important to me and with the M240 I have a full range of exceptional lenses to choose from, but given the issues I'm struggling to think of a single lens I'd want to put on the Sonys.

I've been making images for 50+ years and can't remember a time when I've ever had more fun with a camera in my hand.

 

[jonoslack]

I guess given some comments its time to think out of the box. I won't mention names but comments like I m selling my S system keep my M glass and get a couple Sonys gives a pause to me.

It really depends what you're shooting Guy (but you know this) - if you want to shoot landscape in english weather, with wide angle lenses sharp to the corner, then I can promise you, the Sony kit lens is much better than a 28 summicron at around 1/10th of the price. If you're shooting portrait, wedding and event, where the corners are not often of much importance, then, fine - stick those M lenses on your Sony - you won't be disappointed.

After my testing, the idea that an A7 or A7r with M lenses will give you results equivalent to an S system (or any other MF kit) makes my mind boggle, but people will see what they want to see won't they!

Stick a Zeiss Otis on an A7r, or one of the great Leica R lenses and that's quite a different issue.

 

[airfrogusmc]

I bought into Leica expecting to at best tolerate the rangefinder safe in the knowledge that with the M I also had liveview on LCD and EVF. The reality was I fell in love with a rangefinder.

Wides in the range 18mm to 24mm are very important to me and with the M240 I have a full range of exceptional lenses to choose from, but given the issues I'm struggling to think of a single lens I'd want to put on the Sonys.

I've been making images for 50+ years and can't remember a time when I've ever had more fun with a camera in my hand.

I haven't liked a camera as much as my MM as when I bought my 500 C/Ms in the mid 1980s.

 

[fotografz]

A very timely thread for me.

Evaluating the merits of all the choices is so personal that it is near impossible to be definitive. As Guy says, it's great that we have so many choices :thumbs:

Whether one is a recent convert evangelizing on the joys of a rangefinder like Keith, or long time addict like Jono or myself … Leica owns the rangefinder way of seeing … unless you have "seeing" issues like Jack (I also almost had to bail on Ms before cataract surgery corrected my problem, and astigmatism along with it).

If, like Jack, I had bailed on Ms, I would not have bought back into expensive M lenses just because the A7/A7R came along. There are just to many other great choices these days. But I didn't, and kept it all which allowed exploration beyond only a M solution.

My personal evaluation of how the Sony A7R fits into the array of my gear bag:

Despite 36 meg resolution, the A7R is not a replacement for my S2 kit. The S2 sits comfortably at the top of my IQ list by a good margin. Likewise, extensive testing of the M240 served only to show just how good the S2 really is. Since ALL of my S mount lenses are CS versions, comparisons are moot anyway.

The A7R is not a replacement for my Leica Monochrome. The whole rangefinder aspect aside, even 36 meg B&W conversions can't equal the presence of the 18 meg B&Ws from the Leica. Dedication matters.

The A7R is not a replacement for the Sony A99. The A7/A7R doesn't have IBIS, doesn't have dual card slots, doesn't have the versatile LCD, and is ill suited for work with a speed-light.

IMO, the A7/A7R need not be compared to anything.

It exists in my bag for one reason: size.

It says in my bag for one reason: size.

It goes with me often for one reason: size.

Size without giving up excellent IQ. Size while delivering low light performance. Size that allows use of small native AF lenses, plus many other smallish lenses. Size that doesn't hog space in the A mount bag when serving as a side-kick for available light work beyond the A99's ability.

In some areas it stands on its own, and while it cannot replace any of my various kit, it oddly can serve as back-up to all of them … not bad for the price IMO.

- Marc

 

[Paratom]

IMO many reviews/articles etc. focus too much on technical IQ and forget handling.
If you look at the images the differences are not all that obvious...but using an EVF vs an optical finder and other things like this can make a huge difference for the photographer.

 

[Bob]

Call me a stick in the mud, but I tried the A7 and just can't stand the viewfinder.
There is nothing more disturbing than shooting while a near-burned out sky is bright pink in the viewfinder.
Almost every adapter I have looked at seems to suffer from one inconvenience or another or at best extreme sample variation.
Adding another plumbing joint to the mix surely does not help lens alignment.
Everything about camera selection is driven by personal preferences, but the A7 just doesn't cut it for me.
My minimum requirements include an optical viewfinder, or one a couple generations ahead of Sony's, Yes, it would be cool if the focus-peeking stuff could be superimposed on the optical finder or maybe some sort of hybrid approach like the x100 but right now I think you need to love it for what it is and discount the adapter-city approach to lens interchangeability.
Some love it.
I cannot stand it.
-bob

 

[fotografz]

Call me a stick in the mud, but I tried the A7 and just can't stand the viewfinder.
There is nothing more disturbing than shooting while a near-burned out sky is bright pink in the viewfinder.
Almost every adapter I have looked at seems to suffer from one inconvenience or another or at best extreme sample variation.
Adding another plumbing joint to the mix surely does not help lens alignment.
Everything about camera selection is driven by personal preferences, but the A7 just doesn't cut it for me.
My minimum requirements include an optical viewfinder, or one a couple generations ahead of Sony's, Yes, it would be cool if the focus-peeking stuff could be superimposed on the optical finder or maybe some sort of hybrid approach like the x100 but right now I think you need to love it for what it is and discount the adapter-city approach to lens interchangeability.
Some love it.
I cannot stand it.
-bob

Other than that Mrs. Lincoln … how did you like the play?

Don't mince words Bob … tell us what you really think.

 

[PeterA]

I like the SIZE of the A7r and I don' like the PRICE of the M240 - I don't SEE a better file from the M240 than I get from my M9. My MM is the most satisfying camera I own.

I can't use focus peeking to shoot wide open with my Noctilux and nail a person's eyes every time - I own a lot of fast Leica glass to shoot wide open - so the M9 and MM are my go to choices for now a far as serious rangefinder work goes.

I like being able to use Leica glass on the Sony - but I will buy the Sony 24-70FE lens to pretty much stay glued on the A7r - because the Sony SIZE for RESOLUTION equation is huge winner.

All that has changed for me is the price of entry into larger prints ha come down to reality. The Leica/Nikon systems I run - still can't do what my Artec and Alpa gear does as far as tripod work goes. I don't expect this to change - ever. I am glad I stopped upgrading MF digi backs at 40 megapixels.

I won't be buying into MF CMOS either - CMOS files all look the same - from every manufacturer out there- they are all the same - no pop straight out of camera.