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Just asking why? ...

250swb

Member
I try to shoot each of my Leica lenses wide open almost all the time. Leica (and I) spent a great deal of money making sure these lenses perform better than any alternatives when wide open, and I don't want to waste that investment.
But all Leica lenses, even the Noctilux, are sharper stopped down a bit, f/4 usually. So your 'investment' is in an additional stop or two of speed, not resolution. You are wasting the prime performance of the lens for the sake of using a narrow definition of its function. Leica designed it with a selection of f/stops, that is why it is expensive, a lens with one f/stop would be pretty cheap to make in the scheme of things.

Steve
 

fotografz

Well-known member
But all Leica lenses, even the Noctilux, are sharper stopped down a bit, f/4 usually. So your 'investment' is in an additional stop or two of speed, not resolution. You are wasting the prime performance of the lens for the sake of using a narrow definition of its function. Leica designed it with a selection of f/stops, that is why it is expensive, a lens with one f/stop would be pretty cheap to make in the scheme of things.

Steve
Steve, while you may get a bit more by stopping down, the M Nocti and Lux lenses tend to out-perform most other fast aperture lenses when shot wide open. At F/1.4 an M lens is often like shooting other lenses at f/2.8 or even f/3.5 in terms of apparent resolution. So you gain light gathering without giving up a whole lot. Obviously, when the situation calls for stopping down, you do it.

Optimizing a lens as much as possible at such wide apertures is what probably costs a pretty penny.

- Marc
 

250swb

Member
Marc, I'm just questioning the idea that a Noctilux (and the 'others', but I don't know what they are) is carried around only to use it wide open. What happens when another aperture is needed, change to another lens entirely or another type of 50mm?

It sort of comes in the 'HCB only used a 50mm lens' type of Leica myth bracket. The 'I only shoot fast lenses wide open' isn't something Leica ever intended as a consequence of making a Noctilux, they originate from needing a wide f/stop for slow film.

Steve
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
@ Steve, FTR, HCB's favorite lens was a 50mm SONNAR, a Zeiss design made for the Leica -- I've always found that somewhat ironic since HCB is considered the pentultimate Leica shooter by many, yet he didn't use Leica glass.

@Marc, I doubt wide aperture performance is *probably* the reason M glass is so expensive, I suspect it is T H E reason! :ROTFL:

@Guy, the older pre-asph Lux is what Max and I are debating here, not the older Nocts. He didn't like his, we both loved ours -- it's why I'm thinking his copy was sub-par. Moreover, I don't recall mine focus shifting much at all -- at least it was never an issue for me. It did have some field curvature, but not excessive and at least for me, I don't ever recall it being significant enough to smear a corner past f4...
 

jonoslack

Active member
Hi Jack.
Interesting discussion. I think it boils down to two changes since your day with Leica
1. the 0.95 Nocti performs like the 50 'lux Asph after f.1.4
2. the rangefinder on the M makes focusing the Noct wide open easier than previously.

I've got both lenses - I'll take the Nocti if I 'might' want that f0.95 and put up with the weight, otherwise I'll take the 'lux. Incidentally I don't agree with Marc that the A7 makes it easier to focus - but then perhaps that's because of the modified rangefinder in the new M? Certainly I'm not alone in finding a great improvement.

All the best
 

harmsr

Workshop Member
I'll chime in.

I've divested myself of a lot of my previous Leica gear, for multiple reasons. 1) I wear glasses so 35 & 28 frame lines are difficult for me. My 35 street shooting has gone to the Sony RX1r which I love. That replaced the 35 Lux FLE. 2) for 90 mm lenses there are better options than a rangefinder in my opinion.

50 mm is the focal length that I have always loved to use on a Leica. I had started with a 50 cron years ago. That was replaced by the 50 Lux Pre-Asph. In that time frame I tried the f1 Noct. & just didn't like the difficulty focusing on the earlier rangefinders, it's inferiority at narrower aperture - requiring me to always have another 50 along, & the strange bokeh that sometimes happened - depending on the background.

Then the 50 Lux ASPH came out & this was my dream lens for many years. I just loved the rendering at all apertures.

Now comes the M240 with an improved rangefinder plus an electronic finder (unfortunately without eye sensor, no lag, or the clarity of the one from my RX1r - Leica PLEASE get a good EVF). Also, Leica produces a new .95 Noct. which was sharper, appeared to mimic my Lux ASPH when stopped down, & didn't have the sometimes "busy" bokeh.

My thoughts were could this new lens give me the extra speed, great separation of subject, & replace my Lux at the same time? I've had one on loan for about a week now & have to say it's pretty amazing. Yes it's heavy, slightly slower to focus when close (2m to infinity is really about the same), plus doesn't focus as close as my Lux. However, I truly seem to have a much more versatile lens in the Noct.

I'm truly loving it for everything that I loved in my Lux ASPH plus it's ability shoot down to .95. I do use it a lot when wider than 1.4 and not only at close distance but to gain separation of subject at longer distances. A 3 stop ND allows me to even do this in bright light. I'll also use it at 2.8, 4, 5.6, 8 as needed. Here it performs as good as my Lux ASPH. No more need to have two 50's.

In conclusion for the type of photography where a rangefinder works, I have reduced my kit to a Sony RX1r & Leica M240 with .95 Nocti and couldn't be happier.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Crap. Maybe I'm gonna need to buy a 0.95 and an A7 for the rear lenscap.
 

harmsr

Workshop Member
Non scientific example but just a quick simple reason why I say the Noctilux is so versatile.

Here is a shot with the Sony A7 and the FE 55/1.8 compared to the M240 and the .95 Noct.. I did a screen shot of the metadata to show everyone the parameters. The sharpness,color, and ISO performance might just surprise you. :)

In this group, The A7 55 FE/1.8 combo is always first followed by the M240 and .95 Noct..

Let me know what you guys think. I love this .95 Noct. even when not wide open. :)
 

harmsr

Workshop Member
Ooops. The shutter speed on the M240 information screen shot didn't show. Here it is again. These were handheld and quickly focusing the Noct. with the rangefinder.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Hi Jack.
Interesting discussion. I think it boils down to two changes since your day with Leica
1. the 0.95 Nocti performs like the 50 'lux Asph after f.1.4
2. the rangefinder on the M makes focusing the Noct wide open easier than previously.

I've got both lenses - I'll take the Nocti if I 'might' want that f0.95 and put up with the weight, otherwise I'll take the 'lux. Incidentally I don't agree with Marc that the A7 makes it easier to focus - but then perhaps that's because of the modified rangefinder in the new M? Certainly I'm not alone in finding a great improvement.

All the best
Jono, I didn't make a comparison statement. I agree with you (and others), that the M240 rangefinder is an improved over the M9/M8. I did test a M240 demo for 2 weeks.

I said that focusing mag/peaking on the A7R even makes it easy (not easier) to focus the M50/0.95 at closer distances … which, without mag focus and peaking would be hard on the A7R … probably harder than with a M240.

- Marc
 

jonoslack

Active member
what changed with the rangefinder?
HI John.
It's been completely re-engineered to tighter tolerances, making it more accurate and more likely to stay in calibration - at least, that's how I understand it.
Whatever the actual technical details, most people are finding it much better than the RF in the M9 - for example, when I had two M9 bodies I had half of my lenses focus better on one body, and the other half on the other body. Now I have two M bodies I don't need to think about it.

Jono, I didn't make a comparison statement. I agree with you (and others), that the M240 rangefinder is an improved over the M9/M8. I did test a M240 demo for 2 weeks.

I said that focusing mag/peaking on the A7R even makes it easy (not easier) to focus the M50/0.95 at closer distances … which, without mag focus and peaking would be hard on the A7R … probably harder than with a M240.

- Marc
HI Mark - sorry to misinterpret you - I quite agree that it is easy to focus on the A7/A7r . . .
 

asiafish

Member
True. Even a 50mm Jupiter 8 at f5,6 looks just as good as a 50mm Summicron.
However, I cannot completely agree: For example, the 50mm pre asph Summilux is optically just a bad lens compared to the Summicron or even the Jupiter 8. At f11 the edges of that Summilux are still horribly fuzzy while the other lenses mentioned before are much sharper.

Don't get me wrong, Im not implying that the Jupiter 8 is better then the Lux. It is not, in fact it has lots of flaws; Enormous focus shifts, bad performance wide open and horrible mechanics just to name a few.

Then again, all these lense are made to take images with. And I guess if the content of an image is alright, nobody will care whether it was captured with a Noctilux or a Jupiter X at a certain aperture.
My Jupiter 3 is among my favorite lenses. Delightful!!!!
 

asiafish

Member
Not an owner of such exotic lenses, but I suspect they are the same reasons why anyone doesn't shoot a f/1.4 lens or f/2 lens at wide open all the time. I pay for fast lens for its versatility so that I can shoot it that wide when I need to, without the need of changing the lens for every different lighting scenarios. Once the lens is on the body, however, the aperture settings becomes a creative tool for DOF/shutter-speed control. I'm lazy and prefer not to change lens often while I'm out, so I see the benefit of being able to slap on a slightly bigger lens that is capable of wider aperture range, especially if you move between indoor/outdoor a lot.

I wish that they can figure out a way to provide constant fully round iris so the bokeh looks nice at all apertures.
One big and heavy lens is often still smaller, lighter and is always more convenient than two smaller lenses in the same FL.
 

asiafish

Member
The copy I tested is owned by my neighbor and this black 50mm pre asph Lux is in perfect condition. It looks like new and behaves just like the copy I tested (less thoroughly though) in my local Leica store.

There are several reasons why I don't like this lens:
-When the lens gets stopped down its focal length changes just enough to cause focus shifts; Just like any other fast lens without correction (FLE come to mind). I hate having to compensate for this while shooting, I find it distracting when I have to focus on the shoot instead.
-Field curvature is very prominent; The field and corners are always a bit fuzzy even when stopped down.
-It's quite large compared to a 50mm Cron especially if you consider that you get more resolution (especially across the field and in the corners) from the Cron in a much lighter package.


However just because it doesn't meet my demands doesn't mean anybody has to share my opinion. If you have one just shoot and enjoy it. ;)
Sounds very Sonnar-like. My "fast 50s" are a trio of Sonnar-type lenses (1937 Carl Zeiss, 1963 Jupiter 3, new Carl Zeiss C Sonnar ZM) for when I want to paint with light. When I want ease of shooting and/or optical perfection its the 50 Summicron.
 

asiafish

Member
@ Steve, FTR, HCB's favorite lens was a 50mm SONNAR, a Zeiss design made for the Leica -- I've always found that somewhat ironic since HCB is considered the pentultimate Leica shooter by many, yet he didn't use Leica glass.

@Marc, I doubt wide aperture performance is *probably* the reason M glass is so expensive, I suspect it is T H E reason! :ROTFL:

@Guy, the older pre-asph Lux is what Max and I are debating here, not the older Nocts. He didn't like his, we both loved ours -- it's why I'm thinking his copy was sub-par. Moreover, I don't recall mine focus shifting much at all -- at least it was never an issue for me. It did have some field curvature, but not excessive and at least for me, I don't ever recall it being significant enough to smear a corner past f4...
Now old Sonnars have a look. My absolute favorite lens. When I grab my Monochrom with just one lens, its is almost always one of my Sonnars.
 

Zlatko Batistich

New member
@ Steve, FTR, HCB's favorite lens was a 50mm SONNAR, a Zeiss design made for the Leica -- I've always found that somewhat ironic since HCB is considered the pentultimate Leica shooter by many, yet he didn't use Leica glass.
There is a book that mentions HCB using a Sonnar in 1946. However, over his long career he certainly used Leica lenses. Mike Johnston writes that HCB used the collapsible 50mm Summicron from the time that it was introduced and for most of his career. There are several photos online in which HCB appears to be using the collapsible 50mm Summicron. In a 1968 photo, he appears to be using a 50/1.2 Noctilux. One commenter on T.O.P. writes that in 1975 he saw HCB mainly using the 40mm Summicron and 35mm Summilux, and that he also carried a 90mm Elmarit and 50mm Summicron.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
The one he eventually polished the coating off of from years of cleaning it with his shirt tail as he rested at sidewalk cafes between shooting was a Sonnar :D
 

wattsy

Well-known member
1. the 0.95 Nocti performs like the 50 'lux Asph after f.1.4
2. the rangefinder on the M makes focusing the Noct wide open easier than previously.
When I owned the F0.95 Noctilux I didn't find it hard to focus at F0.95, even using it on the now apparently crappy M9 RF:) – it is certainly less demanding than, say, the 75 Summicron at F2 (both at closest focus). The 1m minimum focussing distance of the Noctilux certainly 'helps' here. I mention that factor also because, for me, that longer minimum focussing distance makes the Noctilux noticeably less versatile than the 50 Summilux.

Two other things I'd say about the F0.95.
1) I rather liked it stopped down a stop or so. I'm less keen on the F0.95 aesthetic. At F1.4–F2, it worked nicely for me (for certain types of photograph) and, I think was a little sharper (where it mattered) than the Summilux at equivalent aperture.
2) Ergonomics. It is a heavy lens (by M standards) but, surprisingly, balances nicely on the M body. The extra size meant I tended to hold the camera/lens combination more by the lens than I did the body and I quite liked it that way
 
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